To paraphrase George Carlin, "Selling is legal. Sex is legal. Why is selling sex illegal?"
This is terrible logic. Drinking is legal (if you're of above a certain age), driving is legal (again age, and with a license). Drunk driving is illegal precisely because of the interaction between drinking and driving (danger to other drivers/pedestrians) even though the two separate actions are completely legal.
Let me know when someone else's genrunner kills you. I'll wait.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
In retrospect, yes, while I may be inclined to agree that me providing these scripts might not fall within the bounds of what it considered acceptable for most people, I do have to state the following:
We have worked -extremely- hard to get Saracen into a releasable state. An awful amount of research has gone into the 'can we and can't we's' and I am wholly satisfied that the product on offer here provides both a tangible re-assurance for the admin and a secure and honest purchase for the user.
Sure, not everybody is going to be happy with Saracen. That was anticipated from the very start, but I am firmly confident that the product on offer fulfils both admin concerns and user satisfaction.
And if we want to continue with the drunk driving metaphor.. We've basically been told in the last few posts by an admin that drunk driving is illegal.
Then we had a player tell us that it's acceptable if you're drunk while driving a Ford Focus or a Lincoln Continental because you're less likely to be pulled over, but drunk driving a Porsche is a no-no, because it can go faster.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
To paraphrase George Carlin, "Selling is legal. Sex is legal. Why is selling sex illegal?"
This is terrible logic. Drinking is legal (if you're of above a certain age), driving is legal (again age, and with a license). Drunk driving is illegal precisely because of the interaction between drinking and driving (danger to other drivers/pedestrians) even though the two separate actions are completely legal.
Let me know when someone else's genrunner kills you. I'll wait.
The example is used to refute the logic of your 'selling sex' quote. Nowhere in my argument did I suggest that genrunners kill people.
There's a distinct difference between selling something that is harmless to give away, and putting two thing together that quite often kills people. I'm afraid your metaphor is invalid, good sir.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Autobashing is frowned upon. Actually, it's against the rules, period. This is officially, literally. There is no wriggle room.
Even from a more comprehensive, ethical analysis, genrunning is considered the most egregrious of automation amongst the playerbase, and for a good reason. It is unacceptable by many people's standards not just because it is against the rules, but because of the intention and purpose behind it.
The "intended use" of a genrunner, which you are selling, IS anathema to fair play. Please stop playing down the illegal aspect of the auto-walk-and-bash part of Saracen. Although, then again, I doubt there's anyone who have read the thread who are still in doubt over that part.
Draylor, please provide actual statements from the admin that you have received. No more personal accounts, direct quotes from the admins mouth (or fingers). One admin has gone against you and you've brushed him aside, so back it up.
Any further discussion by Draylor stating he had admin approval should be considered false and a lie until he provides evidence to the contrary.
I, for whatever reason, am kind of on your side, but you are digging your own grave. It's incredibly silly
And if we want to continue with the drunk driving metaphor.. We've basically been told in the last few posts by an admin that drunk driving is illegal.
Then we had a player tell us that it's acceptable if you're drunk while driving a Ford Focus or a Lincoln Continental because you're less likely to be pulled over, but drunk driving a Porsche is a no-no, because it can go faster.
No, you have a player who is telling you that it is OK to drink -or- drive (automating one segment versus another), but not OK to do them both at the same time. Because, well, that is exactly what was said.
I mean, heck, admin-supported automated curing already exists (they wrote it). Some level of automation is rather expected. They have said over and over (and over and over and over...) that fully automating the entire thing so that you can just walk away from the machine while it cranks away for you is not a good thing.
So you're trying to legislate intentions instead of actions. Got it.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
The admin have given you permission to sell the script. The admin have also explicitly told the players that buying the script is a waste of money because using it is illegal (Eventru is the admin). The admin have also explcitly stated that using the script they are allowed to buy is illegal (Eventru is the admin).
I didn't trust you before, and I trust you even less now. You are selling a script that the admin have publicly told us, just now, that they are not allowed to use. You are a fraud.
We're hearing the views from a -single- admin and you are basing your trust on the product over that?
Interesting.
Absolutely.
Yes, Eventru confirmed that selling the script is legal (since you, by the way, never produced proof of your claim). Eventru also confirmed that using the script is absolutely illegal.
That he is one admin in no way negates the facts. When an admin speaks, they speak for the whole administration.
You are perfectly free to sell the script. People are perfectly free to buy it. And I'm perfectly free to call you out on the shady deal you're peddling.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
There's a distinct difference between selling something that is harmless to give away, and putting two thing together that quite often kills people. I'm afraid your metaphor is invalid, good sir.
There is no difference in the logic of it. Let me use algebra so that there are no other factors.
It is not the inherent properties of A or B that makes AB illegal, but rather the specific interaction between A and B is what is illegal.
And if we want to continue with the drunk driving metaphor.. We've basically been told in the last few posts by an admin that drunk driving is illegal.
Then we had a player tell us that it's acceptable if you're drunk while driving a Ford Focus or a Lincoln Continental because you're less likely to be pulled over, but drunk driving a Porsche is a no-no, because it can go faster.
No, you have a player who is telling you that it is OK to drink -or- drive (automating one segment versus another), but not OK to do them both at the same time. Because, well, that is exactly what was said.
I mean, heck, admin-supported automated curing already exists (they wrote it). Some level of automation is rather expected. They have said over and over (and over and over and over...) that fully automating the entire thing so that you can just walk away from the machine while it cranks away for you is not a good thing.
No, what we have is a player who feels certain automation for profit/advancement is acceptable, but not others. It's interesting how Glomdoring all over this and defends vadi's automated influencing/bashing/mudlet mapper, but everything else is shady.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
So you're trying to legislate intentions instead of actions. Got it.
In a perfect world, that is exactly what we should be doing. The idea behind the justice system is exactly that: to curb actions driven by bad intentions. That's why mitigating factors are sometimes taken into account for certain crimes. Unfortunately, mind-reading is not a human trait. And authors like Orwell have argued, convincingly, that even with mind-reading, legislating intention is not going to result in anything but a dystopia.
However, Lusternia is not the real world. Can we perfectly legislate intentions in Lusternia? No, of course not. If mind-reading is impossible in real life, mind-reading over the net is even less plausible. However, we can try to do what the real world has failed: to punish intentions instead of actions. Trying to separate good-intention automation (like serverside curing, which is meant to lower the bar of entry for combat) from bad-intention automation (like trying to cheat the grind out of a grinding system) is not easy either, but it may well be possible to do, and if it is, I don't see why we shouldn't try.
No, what we have is a player who feels certain automation for profit/advancement is acceptable, but not others. It's interesting how Glomdoring all over this and defends vadi's automated influencing/bashing/mudlet mapper, but everything else is shady.
I'm sorry, but partisanship is the least obvious thing in this thread. I think this discussion is exhausted, if you're pulling the Glomdoring version of Godwin's law. I'm really disappointed. You actually sounded like you had something intelligent to say in your arguments before this.
This is getting out of hand.
Draylor, please provide actual statements from the admin that you have received. No more personal accounts, direct quotes from the admins mouth (or fingers). One admin has gone against you and you've brushed him aside, so back it up.
Any further discussion by Draylor stating he had admin approval should be considered false and a lie until he provides evidence to the contrary.
I, for whatever reason, am kind of on your side, but you are digging your own grave. It's incredibly silly
I'd think the fact I have made the facts pretty clear on these forums should suffice, no?
And if we want to continue with the drunk driving metaphor.. We've basically been told in the last few posts by an admin that drunk driving is illegal.
Then we had a player tell us that it's acceptable if you're drunk while driving a Ford Focus or a Lincoln Continental because you're less likely to be pulled over, but drunk driving a Porsche is a no-no, because it can go faster.
No, you have a player who is telling you that it is OK to drink -or- drive (automating one segment versus another), but not OK to do them both at the same time. Because, well, that is exactly what was said.
I mean, heck, admin-supported automated curing already exists (they wrote it). Some level of automation is rather expected. They have said over and over (and over and over and over...) that fully automating the entire thing so that you can just walk away from the machine while it cranks away for you is not a good thing.
No, what we have is a player who feels certain automation for profit/advancement is acceptable, but not others. It's interesting how Glomdoring all over this and defends vadi's automated influencing/bashing/mudlet mapper, but everything else is shady.
If it is not fully automated, I don't rant against it. If it is, I do. I have had this conversation quite extensively with Vadi (primarily back during the Crown days). To my knowledge, he did not go ahead and implement it (if he had, what would be the point of adding it again?)
I am going to have to peg this down as you not knowing what you are talking about, however, given that I did indeed argue against its inclusion in M&M. And, further, given that I do not even use it (or any of Vadi's scripts).
It is a very clear line to me. If you can walk away from the system and it continues to generate essence / gold for you, it is illegal automation. This stance has been backed up by the Administration repeatedly.
I am sorry if you do not like it, but if you want to claim hypocrisy you really need to be able to back it up. Otherwise it just looks like flailing in an attempt to /divert legitimate criticism.
No, what we have is a player who feels certain automation for profit/advancement is acceptable, but not others. It's interesting how Glomdoring all over this and defends vadi's automated influencing/bashing/mudlet mapper, but everything else is shady.
Vadi's "automated" bashing essentially duplicates the functionality of strategems client side. It can repeat an action whenever you get balance, and it can also do balanceless actions before it does the balanceful one. The mapper does client side PATHFIND, while also providing a map.
Since the game has stratagems, pathfind, and a map all built in to the server side options, I think one could hardly say any of these things are illegal.
Draylor, please provide actual statements from the admin that you have received. No more personal accounts, direct quotes from the admins mouth (or fingers). One admin has gone against you and you've brushed him aside, so back it up.
Any further discussion by Draylor stating he had admin approval should be considered false and a lie until he provides evidence to the contrary.
I, for whatever reason, am kind of on your side, but you are digging your own grave. It's incredibly silly
I'd think the fact I have made the facts pretty clear on these forums should suffice, no?
There's a distinct difference between selling something that is harmless to give away, and putting two thing together that quite often kills people. I'm afraid your metaphor is invalid, good sir.
There is no difference in the logic of it. Let me use algebra so that there are no other factors.
It is not the inherent properties of A or B that makes AB illegal, but rather the specific interaction between A and B is what is illegal.
They wrote drunk driving laws because drunk driving kills people. Why are you worried about what a genrunner can do? Afraid someone will steal your fire mantises?
As for me, I'll be using Saracen with no genrunner. I simply like the GUI, and I've used draylor's coding enough to know that he does decent work. I don't feel that just because I'm not going to use it, others shouldn't either.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Draylor, please provide actual statements from the admin that you have received. No more personal accounts, direct quotes from the admins mouth (or fingers). One admin has gone against you and you've brushed him aside, so back it up.
Any further discussion by Draylor stating he had admin approval should be considered false and a lie until he provides evidence to the contrary.
I, for whatever reason, am kind of on your side, but you are digging your own grave. It's incredibly silly
I'd think the fact I have made the facts pretty clear on these forums should suffice, no?
No they don't suffice, you have not provided any evidence that it is okayed, saying they did does not prove anything. You need quotes from them, or the admin themselves backing you up. anything else is just more probable lies
Comments
Let me know when someone else's genrunner kills you. I'll wait.
Then we had a player tell us that it's acceptable if you're drunk while driving a Ford Focus or a Lincoln Continental because you're less likely to be pulled over, but drunk driving a Porsche is a no-no, because it can go faster.
Even from a more comprehensive, ethical analysis, genrunning is considered the most egregrious of automation amongst the playerbase, and for a good reason. It is unacceptable by many people's standards not just because it is against the rules, but because of the intention and purpose behind it.
The "intended use" of a genrunner, which you are selling, IS anathema to fair play. Please stop playing down the illegal aspect of the auto-walk-and-bash part of Saracen. Although, then again, I doubt there's anyone who have read the thread who are still in doubt over that part.
Draylor, please provide actual statements from the admin that you have received. No more personal accounts, direct quotes from the admins mouth (or fingers). One admin has gone against you and you've brushed him aside, so back it up.
Any further discussion by Draylor stating he had admin approval should be considered false and a lie until he provides evidence to the contrary.
I, for whatever reason, am kind of on your side, but you are digging your own grave. It's incredibly silly
I mean, heck, admin-supported automated curing already exists (they wrote it). Some level of automation is rather expected. They have said over and over (and over and over and over...) that fully automating the entire thing so that you can just walk away from the machine while it cranks away for you is not a good thing.
Yes, Eventru confirmed that selling the script is legal (since you, by the way, never produced proof of your claim).
Eventru also confirmed that using the script is absolutely illegal.
That he is one admin in no way negates the facts. When an admin speaks, they speak for the whole administration.
You are perfectly free to sell the script. People are perfectly free to buy it. And I'm perfectly free to call you out on the shady deal you're peddling.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
However, Lusternia is not the real world. Can we perfectly legislate intentions in Lusternia? No, of course not. If mind-reading is impossible in real life, mind-reading over the net is even less plausible. However, we can try to do what the real world has failed: to punish intentions instead of actions. Trying to separate good-intention automation (like serverside curing, which is meant to lower the bar of entry for combat) from bad-intention automation (like trying to cheat the grind out of a grinding system) is not easy either, but it may well be possible to do, and if it is, I don't see why we shouldn't try.
If it is not fully automated, I don't rant against it. If it is, I do. I have had this conversation quite extensively with Vadi (primarily back during the Crown days). To my knowledge, he did not go ahead and implement it (if he had, what would be the point of adding it again?)
I am going to have to peg this down as you not knowing what you are talking about, however, given that I did indeed argue against its inclusion in M&M. And, further, given that I do not even use it (or any of Vadi's scripts).
It is a very clear line to me. If you can walk away from the system and it continues to generate essence / gold for you, it is illegal automation. This stance has been backed up by the Administration repeatedly.
I am sorry if you do not like it, but if you want to claim hypocrisy you really need to be able to back it up. Otherwise it just looks like flailing in an attempt to /divert legitimate criticism.
No. Those facts were contradicted in this thread.
They wrote drunk driving laws because drunk driving kills people. Why are you worried about what a genrunner can do? Afraid someone will steal your fire mantises?
As for me, I'll be using Saracen with no genrunner. I simply like the GUI, and I've used draylor's coding enough to know that he does decent work. I don't feel that just because I'm not going to use it, others shouldn't either.
No they don't suffice, you have not provided any evidence that it is okayed, saying they did does not prove anything. You need quotes from them, or the admin themselves backing you up. anything else is just more probable lies
Typical Draylor response, gets called out and gets 'bored' and can't defend his lies anymore.
While I don't think you are doing anything wrong by selling it, you are definitely not doing yourself any favors by lying about it.