Specific skills were being selected when you dropped their specific skillset, it was selectional and unfair, and the criteria questionable. Now it affects every skillset which is great, and everyone's on the same page, but you're losing defences that have nothing to do with the skillset you flexed out, that's overkill and punishes people for skillflexing when it already has a cost.
If you can't tell the difference between the two, then discussing with you is pointless. Your angle is irrelevant, go troll elsewhere.
No, my angle isn't irrelevant, for some reason, you are taking -one- issue and arguing several different view points.
Lets lay this out.
Report was put up so that when you skillflex, all defenses from dormant skills are either stripped/made inactive
Report isn't really feasible to code, so alternate bandaid solutions are offered for the time being until combat overhaul is in and report can be implemented
Skills are selected for this bandaid solution, -You- cry about it, saying it's not fair which skill is selected etc.
Alternate bandaid solution is implemented, def stripping upon skillflex, this solves the equality issue (all defs are stripped, so nothing is overlooked/gamed etc), You then cry about how this is too draconian and rough.
The solution you want (and turns out, so do the rest of us) -can't- be done, but it's agreed by the admin AND the envoys that it's still an issue and should be dealt with by the bandaid solution, until the overhaul is implemented and the desired solution can be achieved. The most fair solution is sought after, and it's agreed upon by Iosai and the envoys that defstripping is the most fair, is it an annoyance, yeah sure, but not a huge one.
The cost of skillflexing isn't very much, and as Enyalida said, a minute or so to re-def isn't a big deal. Power isn't even a rare resource and can be replaced really easily (especially by you).
For some strange reason, you can't seem to get behind this. You even agreed that def stacking is a problem (saying Nightkiss with crowform is too strong) yet you are arguing that the solution taken now (def stripping) is tooooo much, even though it's the most fair that can be achieved at the moment. It seems like you want to leave something that you agree is a problem in until the overhaul is implemented, which is just stupid. If it's a problem, why not do our best to fix it now? Why wait? I want to fix other stupid things too (like the dumb collapsedlung-hemi lock that's spammable and will get you eventually with no effort on the tahtetso's part). This is the game we're playing and there's no point to sit on our hands for a future that isn't really on the horizon yet.
As far as pointless goes, it seems it's pointless to discuss with you. Nothing pleases you and you just want to bitch and moan about a inconsequential thing. Turns out you can't have your cake and eat it too, which I think is your biggest issue. You feel personally targeted by this change and have taken a very personal defense toward it and any solution that's been achieved. You're crying hard and you need to stop, take a deep breath, and get over it. It's in, it's not going anywhere and you just need to deal with it like every other person in the game.
I dislike both bandaid solutions how's that? Neither is ideal, neither fixes the issue without creating more problems. My issue is that this report has been left unfinished with fresh problems, it's not a finished product and not how issues should be resolved. If you can't understand that, then there's no other way I can explain it to you.
And I dislike people going "stop complaining, it'll get fixed in the combat overhaul" because said stupid logic applies to the original report too, infact as you even said "there's no point sitting on our hands for a future that isn't really on the horizon yet." Yes such a fix would take significant resources, personally I think it's worth it, others may disagree, each to their own. But employing poor logic of "it'll get fixed one day on a date we don't know and can't give you yet" and at the same time having people go "there's no point waiting for the overhaul to fix stuff, let's fix it now" can't you see the double standard in this?
Other than that, you're now actually starting to argue against points that were never made, and make assumptions based on your angle, which is irrelevant mostly because it's wrong. Either way, discuss based on what's actually being said, not the made up argument you're debating in your head, and drop the provocative tone, otherwise we're done here.
There's scenarios now where people will be requested on the fly to skillflex, in the world of hypothesis lets take Kregarn for example. Kregarn plays -wood BT, this is fine because Vadi is melding in a fight. Suddenly Vadi DC's, or is gone and there's no certainty that he will be back. You're saying it's perfectly acceptable to force a complete redef on Kregarn and blow a ton of power he simply doesn't have the time to regain before the fight resumes?
There's a couple of other situations in the same scenario, but being able to flex in combat should be a smooth transition, not a punishment of time and resources. The fact that this change is incomplete and public irks me, and yes I'm well aware it would take considerable amount of work to release a complete fix to this, and I'd be immensely appreciative of the time it'd take, but considering that said feature is going to be in the overhaul why not do it now, and then it's done with. It's got to be coded sooner or later, so why not sooner?
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Flexing in combat is a perk, not a necessity. There was a time when you couldn't flex, so the fact that it exists at all is already a benefit. In our hypothetical situation, the alternative to Kregarn flexing and losing power to re-def is having no melder, so it's definitely still an advantage that he has the ability to skillflex and take over.
I think everyone wishes defense removal could be coded in properly, but *shakefist* code, I guess. Everyone using the cord for extra defenses had a good run being overpowered and outside of the envoy balancing process (monks are not balanced around having acrobatics and psychometabolism defenses, for example) so, yeah, I guess it sucks and I doubt the cord is worth 1000 credits anymore, but you'll probably get a refund. Again, come overhaul.
Wow just read this and cannot believe the pettiness of what I am reading. You are playing a game were admin actually listen and change the game based on players feedback. Players are permitted to be actively engaged in this process.
Just be thankful that the changes aren't made entirely behind closed doors with no say or feedback on what is happening.
06/30/2014 19:37 Silvanus channels the power of the Megalith of Doom for you, stripping you of your Vernal Ascendant status.......bastard!!
...but considering that said feature is going to be in the overhaul why not do it now, and then it's done with. It's got to be coded sooner or later, so why not sooner?
----
That's the thing, Morkarion. I understand your frustration and desire for the best solution, but we have no idea of what's going on behind the scenes. You have to keep in mind that we have no right to be calling the shots on what gets done now and what gets done later. It's been alluded to on these very boards several times that our coding resources are up to their necks in projects and that even includes the overhaul which is already a huge undertaking.
We're not blizzard entertainment. We're a very small game with very, very few people that can do the kind of coding we need. I wouldn't be surprised if that number can be counted on one hand. Please, be understanding of this. They are the ones who know what's important and know what needs to be focused on immediately with what limited resources they have. It's not the solution we want right now, but it's honestly not that bad and definitely something we can live with for some months.
Yes, we know what is wanted and we know why this solution isn't perfect but when we say it's temporary we really are just telling you to hold tight, that it'll get better when it can. The admin are not sitting on their hands until a magical overhaul-release-date. They are actively working hard on things we have no idea about and for this reason they have to put it off.
Nor are you going to find out the answer without asking the question. You're right, we have no idea, hence why I asked "why not?"
It just seems a good chance to kill two birds with one stone, they're working on the overhaul yet a part of it could be implemented in the game immediately without requiring other factors to make sure it's balanced. I'd love to hear an admin response on this when they have time, but it looks far too logical to not be worth consideration at the very least.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I'm just going to make a little comment here: Some of you believe that losing all defenses and having to def up is "not a big deal". It may not be a big deal to you, I don't know; but what you need to realize is that not everyone sees or experiences things the same way you do. To others it very well may be a huge deal.
I will also add that losing every single defense just because I want to add a few more days to my totem bond does feel very harsh to me.
No, there's no way for the code to know why in particular any person is flexing. There's not really a good solution here either way, except for the one we're being told to wait for. The problem is that nobody (I'm suspecting even the Admin) has any idea when it will be done, so going "hang on, we'll get there eventually" just isn't a great response.
@Morkarion - Did you read the Furies reply to the report? I mean I know you did because you've quoted it quite a few times but it doesn't really seem like you understood what they were saying. The answer you want has been given, and they already said it will be included with the overhaul. What more do you want? I'm sure if they can implement it earlier, they'll be all for it, but I'm willing to bet it takes some serious under-the-hood coding to set it all up in the first place. I doubt they can give you a reasonable ETA about when it'd be done. We all want the same solution you are screaming for, but I mean seriously, you are being absolutely ridiculous about this.
As far as your flexing situations, running around in combat without defs isn't a huge deal. I do it, Shuyin does it, Kelly does it, Xena does it, Thoros does it, and I'm sure a lot of other people do it all the time. You get killed, and jump back into battle with no defs. When you clear everyone for the moment, you then take the time to def up. I don't buy the power argument, power isn't even a rare resource and it's incredibly easy to gather. Everyone has access to ships where they can instantly funnel power into themselves. Other skills exist to help out with power (Deathaura, crow's goldmask thing). So naming one situation just to back up this dislike of def stripping, especially one that already happens quite a bit (people die in fights, they need to redef), doesn't do a single thing to change my mind.
@Xenthos - Obviously others think it is a much larger deal than I do, but even with your totem bond example, I think it's a petty thing to spend a minute or two redeffing, and power is not the rare commodity it's meant to be. I mean, don't get me wrong, I stay logged in AFK when I could leave because I dont' want to redef all the time, but considering I think this new change is the best solution at present, I think it's definitely worth it to have to redef if you switch around so we can get the desired solution. It's a pittance to pay.
Is losing all defenses the ideal solution? No. Everyone knows that. However, it doesn't take more than a minute or two to reset defenses and no org is suffering from a lack a power (Hallifax is the lowest right now and still has power that would last for RL months if no one added any more), in addition to all the other ways to get power besides drawing from your nexus.
I am guilty of this myself, but I often see people saying "Well, just code x now" without any real understanding of what they are actually asking for. If it was simple to whip up a defenses change, our coders would have done it by now. There could be a lot of underlying connections that also require a change (maybe even all skills having to be recoded?) before something like this can be added. The real answer is that I don't know, and I really doubt anyone who has posted in this thread knows either. Our coders do know, and they will code and add things to the game in the order that they can/need to be done.
If everyone wants to continue this discussion about why this is good/bad/not a big deal/the worst thing to ever happen, by all means do so. However, some of you need to take it down a few notches or warning levels will go up.
Think about it this way. The overhaul they're talking about for combat is likely to not be built on existing skill/combat code. Whole new system, from what I'm understanding. With that said, anything done to make the fix in the current code that is used for skills/defenses/etc. would be worthless to the new system, since it would likely use vastly different logic, function calls, etc. Coding it for the existing system would be a waste of time, plain and simple, if they go and rip it all out again eight months later.
Obviously what we need is a Glamrock-style artifact that takes a snapshot of your current defenses and allows you to apply them all at once for a large equi-+power cost.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Obviously what we need is a Glamrock-style artifact that takes a snapshot of your current defenses and allows you to apply them all at once for a large equi-+power cost.
... but then you'd still have the problem of confirming that you're allowed to have all those defenses, unless you suggest it stores your current list of skills and doesn't let you use the defrock unless you have an exact match to that list.
0
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
New artifacts are never the answer.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Comments
And I dislike people going "stop complaining, it'll get fixed in the combat overhaul" because said stupid logic applies to the original report too, infact as you even said "there's no point sitting on our hands for a future that isn't really on the horizon yet." Yes such a fix would take significant resources, personally I think it's worth it, others may disagree, each to their own. But employing poor logic of "it'll get fixed one day on a date we don't know and can't give you yet" and at the same time having people go "there's no point waiting for the overhaul to fix stuff, let's fix it now" can't you see the double standard in this?
Other than that, you're now actually starting to argue against points that were never made, and make assumptions based on your angle, which is irrelevant mostly because it's wrong. Either way, discuss based on what's actually being said, not the made up argument you're debating in your head, and drop the provocative tone, otherwise we're done here.
There's scenarios now where people will be requested on the fly to skillflex, in the world of hypothesis lets take Kregarn for example. Kregarn plays -wood BT, this is fine because Vadi is melding in a fight. Suddenly Vadi DC's, or is gone and there's no certainty that he will be back. You're saying it's perfectly acceptable to force a complete redef on Kregarn and blow a ton of power he simply doesn't have the time to regain before the fight resumes?
There's a couple of other situations in the same scenario, but being able to flex in combat should be a smooth transition, not a punishment of time and resources. The fact that this change is incomplete and public irks me, and yes I'm well aware it would take considerable amount of work to release a complete fix to this, and I'd be immensely appreciative of the time it'd take, but considering that said feature is going to be in the overhaul why not do it now, and then it's done with. It's got to be coded sooner or later, so why not sooner?
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Wow just read this and cannot believe the pettiness of what I am reading. You are playing a game were admin actually listen and change the game based on players feedback. Players are permitted to be actively engaged in this process.
Just be thankful that the changes aren't made entirely behind closed doors with no say or feedback on what is happening.
06/30/2014 19:37 Silvanus channels the power of the Megalith of Doom for you, stripping you of your Vernal Ascendant status.......bastard!!
----
That's the thing, Morkarion. I understand your frustration and desire for the best solution, but we have no idea of what's going on behind the scenes. You have to keep in mind that we have no right to be calling the shots on what gets done now and what gets done later. It's been alluded to on these very boards several times that our coding resources are up to their necks in projects and that even includes the overhaul which is already a huge undertaking.
It just seems a good chance to kill two birds with one stone, they're working on the overhaul yet a part of it could be implemented in the game immediately without requiring other factors to make sure it's balanced. I'd love to hear an admin response on this when they have time, but it looks far too logical to not be worth consideration at the very least.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Some of you believe that losing all defenses and having to def up is "not a big deal". It may not be a big deal to you, I don't know; but what you need to realize is that not everyone sees or experiences things the same way you do. To others it very well may be a huge deal.
I will also add that losing every single defense just because I want to add a few more days to my totem bond does feel very harsh to me.
No, there's no way for the code to know why in particular any person is flexing. There's not really a good solution here either way, except for the one we're being told to wait for. The problem is that nobody (I'm suspecting even the Admin) has any idea when it will be done, so going "hang on, we'll get there eventually" just isn't a great response.
I am guilty of this myself, but I often see people saying "Well, just code x now" without any real understanding of what they are actually asking for. If it was simple to whip up a defenses change, our coders would have done it by now. There could be a lot of underlying connections that also require a change (maybe even all skills having to be recoded?) before something like this can be added. The real answer is that I don't know, and I really doubt anyone who has posted in this thread knows either. Our coders do know, and they will code and add things to the game in the order that they can/need to be done.
If everyone wants to continue this discussion about why this is good/bad/not a big deal/the worst thing to ever happen, by all means do so. However, some of you need to take it down a few notches or warning levels will go up.