Changelog 360/Skillflex

Zvoltz

This discussion was created from comments split from: Tweets V: Tweet and Tower.

Xenthos

Not magically; it would need someone with the appropriate powers to pull it out. Though I suppose there is that old cliche about sufficiently advanced technology being indistinguishable from magic...

Synkarin

Xenthos said:

If your shining examples of why Crow does not suck in comparison feature belch and spew, I am pretty sure you are making exactly the opposite case.

I am sorry you do not like our complaints, but clearly we consider them valid and they are not going to magically go away just because you don't like them.

And if your shining example of making crow comparable to night is 24 dmp, how terrible can crow be?

Welcome to the world the rest of us play in, where we can't maintain great defs from three different terts throughout death. I am not really sure how you can feel so entitled about it or even imagine this complaint as valid.

Xenthos

Synkarin said:

Xenthos said:

If your shining examples of why Crow does not suck in comparison feature belch and spew, I am pretty sure you are making exactly the opposite case.

I am sorry you do not like our complaints, but clearly we consider them valid and they are not going to magically go away just because you don't like them.

And if your shining example of making crow comparable to night is 24 dmp, how terrible can crow be?

Welcome to the world the rest of us play in, where we can't maintain great defs from three different terts throughout death. I am not really sure how you can feel so entitled about it or even imagine this complaint as valid.

24 dmp, alternate attacks, and additional 20/22/10 stats to weapons... yeah. That is indeed a huge shining example, and even more so when you do not ignore two thirds of the benefits.

Crow is indeed terrible as a choice. This enabled it to be much less terrible, and now that option is gone. This is not about "entitlement," though I know how badly you want to change the argument so that you can summarily dismiss it. That tactic is clearly not working for you though; it is pretty hard to do so when it is so readily apparent how wide the gulf is.

It is also obvious that you are playing down night and playing up crow here simply for the sake of having an argument. Not only are you leaving out some of Nightkiss' bonuses, you are also calling Crowform a "great defense". While you know I too love having a good argument and can go on for pages with you, I do feel this one is extraordinarily cut-and-dry.

Synkarin

Whoa whoa, you're the one that said the dmp makes crow comparable in the original report, nothing about weapon aura, or different attacks. Just going off your words here.

If one Trans skill is so much better than an entire skillset, so that by having that one trans skill makes crow worthwhile, maybe that one Trans skill is too powerful and Talan is right, nerf it.

I mean crow is terrible unless you have nightkiss right? That makes total sense

Xenthos

No, it makes no sense at all. It does not change the fact that it is the truth, though. A very sad truth, one that I would prefer not being the case at all, but despite many attempts that is the only thing that worked. Thus, the venting when the "fix" is removed.

PS: Nerfing Night is not going to make Crow better. It sucks in comparison to other specs as well. All you are suggesting with that is making the other option a poorer choice as well so that all options are bad.

Nerfing should be done when something is broken / OP. I don't consider Night to be that (especially after all the nerfs that have been done to it). I consider Crow itself to just be lacking in all respects save flavour.

Karlach

If the solution to make Crow appealing is to nerf other tertiaries to the same level as it, you'd be pretty much nerfing everything across the board for Knights except possibly Aeonics.

People shouldn't feel they have to be pigeonholed into a spec, and yet they are because it's simply not an option. Just because Night is a strong tert doesn't mean you can't buff Crow, especially now thanks to this change, the argument against it hasn't a leg to stand on. As I said, I don't want Crow to be better, I want it to be competitive.

Yes Commune Knights have the luxury of three options (not that I consider tracking an option) but that's not justification for having one option be subpar. If anything it's justification for City Knights to have a second round of tertiaries available to them, infact I'd like to extend the whole multiple choice tertiaries to all classes, same with secondaries. Having a choice of say Athletics or.. Athletics is kinda lacking.

Everiine

The argument that Crow needs to be buffed is valid on its own.

The argument that "I should be allowed to keep my inactive tertiary skills while others can't" is not. "But it's weaker than the others" is not an acceptable argument.

Shaddus

Snow Dog is not amused by this post.

Daraius

Way to deliver on the HD memes!

Karlach

Everiine said:

The argument that "I should be allowed to keep my inactive tertiary skills while others can't" is not. "But it's weaker than the others" is not an acceptable argument.

I'll remind you again of what the report stated, because you're taking this out of context.

" In the mean time, if there are specific defences which are too OP to remain on skillflexing, the Serenguard Envoy may message Iosai one (1) complete list and she will make sure they are cleared as part of this report."

Arguing a skill shouldn't have been listed because it's weak is actually an acceptable argument, because the deciding factor for which skills got listed was if they were gamebreaking or not. If it's weak, it's hardly capable of being gamebreaking or OP. Furthermore the fact many other tertiary skills are not affected by this change (some of which that are stronger than Crowform) makes it even more a valid point.

What is a poor argument however is taking away someone's skills because you did it to someone else and it just wouldn't be fair even though you're comparing apples and oranges.

Synkarin

Jesus fucking christ, play more semantics Mork. You are missing the entire point.

No, I don't think nerfing night is the answer, I think you are being incredibly petty because you took a big, much needed nerf and are using the 'BUT CROW SUCKS' card as an excuse. Turns out that Crow isn't the only terrible tertiary skill out there. Welcome to the club.

Really, I just want you to stop making excuses, work out some envoy reports for Crow, and stop being giant babies joining the rest of us in no stack def land.

Karlach

Synkarin said:

Jesus fucking christ, play more semantics Mork. You are missing the entire point.

Except I'm not, that was the point and people are quoting out of context, so I put it right.

 No, I don't think nerfing night is the answer, I think you are being incredibly petty because you took a big, much needed nerf and are using the 'BUT CROW SUCKS' card as an excuse.

Wrong. I'm entirely fine with Nightkiss being taken off the skillflex books, I can completely understand why it happened and have no qualms with it. My issue is that someone was given a responsibility and set of instructions and did a poor job with it, missed things that should have been there and added things that had no need to be there.

 Turns out that Crow isn't the only terrible tertiary skill out there. Welcome to the club. Really, I just want you to stop making excuses, work out some envoy reports for Crow, and stop being giant babies joining the rest of us in no stack def land.

Clearly you've not read the talk in here about buffing Crow, or ideas on how to do it without making it OP. You're not privy to discussions I have with other people, where Crow ideas are being discussed, so quit with the strawman arguments.

I'm annoyed because this report was in my opinion a half assed job and now going through damage control. No not because Nightkiss was removed, and I can't take it as a tracker anymore, but because it's clear looking at the list that was submitted by Rivius far too many skills simply weren't considered, and some skills that shouldn't be on that list were added with no reason to consider any of them overpowered.

Oh and there are tons of stackable defences that aren't getting touched, so while I know you love to argue, do so without the strawman and hyperbole in future.

Synkarin

Yeah, total strawman because your envoy himself has complained that he can't buff Crow via envoy reports.

Please tell me why nightkiss should be removed but not crowform? That's pretty much your argument, but I don't really understand why crow with nightkiss is any stronger than night with crowform. Why should you get one but not the other?

And the only reason every def isn't included is because it isn't feasible, so I think targeting the big ones that don't fade on death if the way to do, but were it feasible, every def should be treated that way

Zouviqil

Forgive my ignorance here, but isn't skillflex to use different skills, to switch between them once a RL day so you can switch up your strategy/strategies?

Maybe when you flex out a skill, all buffs related to it should be lost - no matter what skill you're flexing out of. I think that would probably solve this arguing really fast!

Though I admit I'm not a combatant or an envoy, so I'm likely coming from a place of ignorance.

Karlach

Synkarin said:

Yeah, total strawman because your envoy himself has complained that he can't buff Crow via envoy reports.

Strawman that you're trying to say "You're crying because you got nerfed" when no one's complaining about Nightkiss on the list for example.

Strawman that people aren't coming up with ideas. Just because Xenthos cited that attempts to buff crow in the past, even before skillflex were unsuccessful and that there's no reason to be optimistic that anything would change now, doesn't mean people we're sat here not bothering to do anything.

And personally I don't see a problem with having Crowform while Night because it's not a powerful buff in the way that you're running around with weaponaura and +24 DMP to all. Crowform, poison expert and enhancement shouldn't have been on that list, and many things that weren't should have been.

My problem was how this entire thing has been implemented from the original report submission, to the submitted list that was flawed both ways and now to the fact the rest of the Envoys have had to make a ton of noise to try and fix the mess and make it somewhat balanced. This was just a mess from start to finish, and leaves more problems to be solved. Whether or not they will be solved is a different matter entirely.

Of course if you want to offer your future reports for ideas to make Crow a competitive tertiary or redesign trackers from being the pitmonkey that makes the game fun for no one, then I'm more than happy to work with you.

Karlach

Zouviqil said:

Forgive my ignorance here, but isn't skillflex to use different skills, to switch between them once a RL day so you can switch up your strategy/strategies?

Maybe when you flex out a skill, all buffs related to it should be lost - no matter what skill you're flexing out of. I think that would probably solve this arguing really fast!

Though I admit I'm not a combatant or an envoy, so I'm likely coming from a place of ignorance.

Before this change all defences remained, with Estarra saying that it was a benefit of skillflexing some time ago. This change has removed some of the buffs that were exceptionally strong outside of their spec, and 2-3 others that are questionable in their inclusion.

The combat revamp will remove this perk entirely, but for now it's intended as part of skillflexing. If you couldn't do it, that cord wouldn't cost 1,000 credits.

Lothringen

We would love to implement this, but at the moment it is not feasible. We will aim to allow this during the combat overhaul. In the mean time, if there are specific defences which are too OP to remain on skillflexing, the Serenguard Envoy may message Iosai one (1) complete list and she will make sure they are cleared as part of this report.

I'm not sure why this has raised such a stink, to be honest, considering everything is going to get the axe eventually.

:-?

Karlach

Because it's pretty likely a lot of skillsets will change entirely with the combat overhaul so glaring issues with specs that people fixed with skillflex, won't exist anymore.

Moi

Morkarion said:

Because it's pretty likely a lot of skillsets will change entirely with the combat overhaul so glaring issues with specs that people fixed with skillflex, won't exist anymore.

This. I don't know why people are still envoying things knowing full well that they're going to get replaced entirely.

Karlach

Well some things need fixing because for the next 8-9 months (rough guestimate) there's still a game and people enjoy playing it, so it's nice to have some idea of balance.

This would of course require some envoys to actually nerf themselves (or in some people's case actually submit a report) and that's never going to happen.

Synkarin

Morkarion said:

Synkarin said:

Yeah, total strawman because your envoy himself has complained that he can't buff Crow via envoy reports.

Strawman that you're trying to say "You're crying because you got nerfed" when no one's complaining about Nightkiss on the list for example.

Strawman that people aren't coming up with ideas. Just because Xenthos cited that attempts to buff crow in the past, even before skillflex were unsuccessful and that there's no reason to be optimistic that anything would change now, doesn't mean people we're sat here not bothering to do anything.

And personally I don't see a problem with having Crowform while Night because it's not a powerful buff in the way that you're running around with weaponaura and +24 DMP to all. Crowform, poison expert and enhancement shouldn't have been on that list, and many things that weren't should have been.

My problem was how this entire thing has been implemented from the original report submission, to the submitted list that was flawed both ways and now to the fact the rest of the Envoys have had to make a ton of noise to try and fix the mess and make it somewhat balanced. This was just a mess from start to finish, and leaves more problems to be solved. Whether or not they will be solved is a different matter entirely.

Of course if you want to offer your future reports for ideas to make Crow a competitive tertiary or redesign trackers from being the pitmonkey that makes the game fun for no one, then I'm more than happy to work with you.

Ok, so Crow is terrible, but you're complaining that you can't stack it with Night and Tracking. Really? That's your argument? You agree that Nightkiss needed the change but not crowform, yet crowform is so terrible, it's probably not a big deal anyway right?

That's the issue and the one you aren't seeing. These are both 10p defenses that don't fade upon death. Being able to put them up and skillflex into another tertiary makes them stronger, without a doubt. It's extremely silly to argue that Crow + Nightkiss or Tracking + Nightkiss is too strong but Night with Crowform and Poisonexpert isn't. It doesn't matter if Crow is terrible, it doesn't matter if crowform is worthless, you are still stronger by having Nightkiss, Crowform AND poisonexpert up. Better poison rubs and afflicts, more int, better dmp, if you're able to use the skills from the trans skill (which Xenthos made appear to be true when he referenced using alternate attacks with nightkiss, so using swoop + truecaw with crowform doesn't seem unreasonable), using the skills as well.

Honestly, sitting here and saying you support the the change to nightkiss, but not crowform just makes your position look weaker.  Especially because you are saying that crowform + nightkiss is too strong when paired with Crow, the terrible skillset, but not when crowform and nightkiss are paired with Night, the stronger skillset. This is why I think you're just bitter about the nerf in general, because your argument is so crazy bad, I can't possibly understand why you're trying to make it, so there must be underlying reasons.

Crow isn't as good as Night, you're right, I agree, but that doesn't mean you should be allowed to keep crowform up for skillflexing. That's too strong, and a advantage you frankly don't need (which you agree with apparently, because according to you, crowform is terribad). As for other skills being added, yeah, some were overlooked, I was the one who originally messaged Iosai with our suggestions for other skills, I personally think the selected skills were good and just need to add a few more, like jealousy and rebuffing from Dramaturgy, something I could take advantage of, but I think is too much (and no where near as strong as crowform + Night).

Enyalida

Iytha said:

Morkarion said:

Because it's pretty likely a lot of skillsets will change entirely with the combat overhaul so glaring issues with specs that people fixed with skillflex, won't exist anymore.

This. I don't know why people are still envoying things knowing full well that they're going to get replaced entirely.

Am I missing something? Has this overhaul been confirmed or talked about at all after that one thread? There haven't been any envoys posts about it, and I don't think admins have answered envoys who ask about it, so....

Elanorwen

Morkarion said:

Zouviqil said:

Forgive my ignorance here, but isn't skillflex to use different skills, to switch between them once a RL day so you can switch up your strategy/strategies?

Maybe when you flex out a skill, all buffs related to it should be lost - no matter what skill you're flexing out of. I think that would probably solve this arguing really fast!

Though I admit I'm not a combatant or an envoy, so I'm likely coming from a place of ignorance.

Before this change all defences remained, with Estarra saying that it was a benefit of skillflexing some time ago. This change has removed some of the buffs that were exceptionally strong outside of their spec, and 2-3 others that are questionable in their inclusion.

The combat revamp will remove this perk entirely, but for now it's intended as part of skillflexing. If you couldn't do it, that cord wouldn't cost 1,000 credits.

Well, that's interesting. I know I can't keep my Aerochem defs while flexed (Although those would certainly be fun to have up). There is presently what I believe to be a bug with amplify (i.e. the gravity effect) that likely also hits the other 5 alternate primaries, but it has been reported (And I also skillflexed back to make sure amplify was off), but eh, anyway.

Kio

Iytha said:

Morkarion said:

Because it's pretty likely a lot of skillsets will change entirely with the combat overhaul so glaring issues with specs that people fixed with skillflex, won't exist anymore.

This. I don't know why people are still envoying things knowing full well that they're going to get replaced entirely.

Because we're not envoys for a game that hasn't come out yet.

Look at this realistically... please.  Gods know we all love Estarra and The Team, but this isn't a job for most of them.  For most of them, this is just one hell of a hobby - a story that they love so much they've not only delved into, but begun helping to craft.  It is completely and totally possibly that Big Important Stuff happens IRL for them.  For those that aren't volunteers and are getting paid... the same thing could happen.  Even worse, snags can be run into via code or design or balance.  Look at how long it took D3 or SC2 to come out after being announced?

Any number of things can happen between then and now.  We can be told that it's completely finished and ready for testing tomorrow or four years from now.

I am not, under any circumstance, complaining about The Team.  I love them and they do amazing work.  But I'm not stupid enough to think that it's going to take exactly the time they plan it to for it to all get finished.

So, until then, we're left with what he have now - the Lusternia that we all play, day in, and day out.  If Xenthos can insta-kill swoop you from four planes away with no setup, powercost, or human input necessary, we're going to fix it if Iosai says we can.  If smaller, more intricate balance changes are going to be helpful, we're going to make them happen if Iosai says we can.  If Iosai gives us the opportunity to make the game a little more fair for people, we're going to do it.

Do I sympathize with your hurt feelings?  Of course I do.  Do I honestly believe that we're trying our damndest to make sure that we make the change as fair as we can given the limited scope we've been allotted?  Nil yeah, I do.

We were given 48 hours and told that every defense can't be changed to drop on switch because the code won't allow for it to happen.  We're not going to load Iosai with absolutely everything after she's already being so gracious as to allow us to backpedal and rework a change that was already implemented, so we're trying to hit only the most noticeable and most used ones.  For example, ask any Sentinel ever.  No.  Instead, ask the ones that have made names for themselves, like Shedrin and Ushaara.  Do Sentinels ever use Aeonfield to an such an extent that would want to leave it up when they skillflexed out?  They're going to tell you no, and they're going to be honest about it.  Yes, it seems like a great and wonderful thing, but no, it's not used in that manner.

Man, it really feels like you guys think we don't care, when the truth of the matter is we're very limited on both time and the number of things we're allowed to include.  If you really think your envoys are doing that bad of a job, ask to replace them.  But do it in the next 37 hours.  It's a freaking Tuesday night and I have to work tomorrow, but I'm still sitting here combing over the stuff that should or shouldn't be included.  So please, cut us some godsbedamned slack, because we're doing the best we can with what we've been given.  We barely have enough time to talk about these things amongst ourselves, let alone have a real life, deal with guild-chores, spend some time with the e-spouse who we rarely get to RP with anymore, tend to novices, participate in revolts, make sure we give the time to the protege we took on, and try to make sure we make absolutely everyone happy.

Karlach

You can't swoop in Crowform because you need the Crow Perch skill to be able to do it, Nightgaze/Nightkiss don't have that restriction. I understand what you're arguing, but you're missing my point. It's not that having all three skills together is OP. It's having one of those skills out of it's tree in another tree with that tree's actives. Nightkiss with pits for example, a harder to kill tracker with strong personal offence and their amazing crow control.

Poison expert and Crowform in Night don't give the same strong benefits. Chance your weapon poisons won't get resisted so much and +1 weighted int, your caw going from a fear to a mana drain (questionable which is better) and a heal on bashing kill. My position isn't weaker because one of them is strong outside it's spec and the other two aren't. They're small gains outside of their skill set, Nightkiss is powerful no matter what you are, if you still can't see that difference then I can't really explain it any easier for you.

My annoyance as stated is the fact that the history of this report has been poorly handled, there's been moments in this report's history, right back to the suggestion of it where balance wasn't the motivation for some people, it was to spite certain players and a dislike of a certain archtype. I'm glad that the other envoys have taken the time to try and fix a poor implementation (though really, you think jealousy outside of Dramaturgy isn't as strong as Crowform outside of Night? I know which I'd rather have in a heartbeat.) but that doesn't change the fact this report was and still somewhat is an example of how the envoy system shouldn't be used. Not because of the concern regarding game mechanics, but the motives of some people (envoys and non envoys alike) who've been involved in this report.

And yes that is the underlying issue that's been nagging at me, I just didn't want to post it here because of the dramallama it's going to cause when certain people rush to try and justify themselves despite me not pointing out names.

I also still believe that this report has left more problems than it fixed, and problems that are more likely in some respects (hello tracking) to get the reply of "We'd rather just wait till the overhaul rather than redesign this skill) That doesn't mean I'm not open to trying, I'm just not very positive on it having a successful outcome.

And while this was an issue to address, I still don't think it was as high up as other things that should be fixed, which are sadly concerns that will never see the light of day because some envoys have no sense of responsibility with regards to overall game balance rather than just maintaining their class remains powerful.

Kio

Enyalida said:

Iytha said:

Morkarion said:

Because it's pretty likely a lot of skillsets will change entirely with the combat overhaul so glaring issues with specs that people fixed with skillflex, won't exist anymore.

This. I don't know why people are still envoying things knowing full well that they're going to get replaced entirely.

Am I missing something? Has this overhaul been confirmed or talked about at all after that one thread? There haven't been any envoys posts about it, and I don't think admins have answered envoys who ask about it, so....

The combat overhaul is a thing that is happening.

Enyalida

Morkarion said:

 ..your caw going from a fear to a mana drain (questionable which is better) and a heal on bashing kill. 

Side note: It's mana drain that is better. The fear from crow totem requires the targets to be hearing, and therefore sees no use. 

Karlach

If I'm going to Mana drain as a Knight (apart from the fact why would I?) there's already options available to me through lash or forcing clot with lacerates.

Also a lot of ibululu seems to get thrown around these days, not many people stay truedeaf in a fight, and others actually keep it off till they need to eat the earwort for sake of not having wait for earache. I've actually saved my skin using totem caw before now.

Rivius

Iytha said:

Morkarion said:

Because it's pretty likely a lot of skillsets will change entirely with the combat overhaul so glaring issues with specs that people fixed with skillflex, won't exist anymore.

This. I don't know why people are still envoying things knowing full well that they're going to get replaced entirely.

Because we don't know when it'll happen, and we'll face a year (or so) without visible development.

Janalon

Heh, I saw this issue when skillflexing became a reality many moons back. I immediately "issued" the fact that certain specs could maintain a dual set of defenses through the cord... especially the most glaring psymet > acro flex. Of course my "issue" was dismissed as a feature at that time. Glad to see something being done about it.

Personally I am against maintaining any set of defenses through a cord skillflex, but then again I am on the "have nots" side of the doctoral cord argument. I entirely sympathize with those who shelled out 1000 credits after having been informed that dual defenses was indeed an intended outcome. 

All things considered, I would love to see more skillsets have defenses with effects scaled to skill level (i.e. similar to how psymet def/off DMP works). The simplest fix would be to have defenses give only the base foundation effect (minus trans-scaled bonuses) when flexed out of that skillset. For example, trans psionic psiarmour gives 12 DMP at trans, but something like 4 DMP at base skill... which IMHO is all that should be carried through a skill flex.