@Malarious, all of your opinions on org RP are based solely on PvP. I like to think that there are many more options for org RP that aren't "go out and kill people."
You can do this without doing PvP. Think of propaganda in the form of news posts, literature, theatre and so on. Seek to do things that benefit your org through more indirect conflict. I don't advocate outright griefing but show them that you mean business to be the best power collecting / aether hunting / culture winning / ... group. All in the name of your orgs ideals.
You have received a new honour! Congratulations! On this day, you have shown your willingness to ensure a bug-free Lusternia for everyone to enjoy. The face of Iosai the Anomaly unfolds before you, and within you grows the knowledge that you have earned the elusive and rare honour of membership in Her Order. Curio Exchange - A website to help with the trading of curio pieces in Lusternia.
Serenwilde's big issue is that the core ideals are nebulous and ill-defined really.
Most everybody has their own thoughts on the subject and there really hasn't been a lot lately (via players or admin as far as I can tell) to focus and press for something. Most attempts tend to be brushed aside and ignored. So really it comes down to serenwilde not really having a "core ideal" to even really strive for. More like a dozen half-ideals.
The other posts here have been fairly interesting to read, kudos to the contributors.
Gaudiguch is a city of individuals, so why ban someone just because they're from a featherbrained race? Same with illithoid, there are individuals who've grown beyond their race's harsh beginnings.
Well, I've already put out what I believe to be Celest's rationale, but as for the Serenwilde? At least one of their divines absolutely DESPISES the Illithoid with a holy passion.
I'm Lucidian. If I don't get pedantic every so often, I might explode.
Is Crow less important than before? The main things that change over time are conflict and perceptions. Unless we have directly changed RP those are presumed constant. Crow is less of a scary force because he -is- a joke compared to previous. Combat is a MAJOR piece and measure of RP, because when the combatants change flows there was a major change at some level.
Lusternia never seemed to thrive more than when combat was frequent and active, because combatants tend to get credits, there tend to be more sales, more people teaching, etc. Things just go better with conflict, that is why Lusternia is a conflict based game.
On a GUILD level though, I like the idols and scorpion aspect of Nekotai. Even if admin tried to completely gut the scorpion aspect (I feel this was a mistake, it should have been encouraged), it is interesting. What I would like to see is the Nekotai to drop the Illithoid, and try to mesh more into the crow and night thing. Specially with the covenant.
Really I would like to see guilds who feel out of place, if there are others, get a make over to help line them up in their orgs. Then you have 5 separate entities inside the organization with common goals and beliefs. Everything in Magnagora was based around the Demon Lords, cept the ninjakari.
I would love to see changes, who knows, with overhaul maybe some classes will get a major redesign in skills to match up too.
I've been reading the Hallifax comments and I can't help but put my comments in. I've been able to see the caste system as it has progressed (or regressed, you might argue) over the years and I have tried to point this out in game, but the topic doesn't come up much anymore. The biggest thing that ruins the caste system is the superiority that players feel that they need to have with it.
The caste system and Collectivism are all about the various parts of Hallifax working together to serve the Collective. The problem is that "Higher" castes is always taken literally to mean that everyone is those castes is way better than everyone else and they should look down on the other castes and treat them like crap. Art and Science are valued by Hallifax and considered the pinnacle of mortal achievement for a variety of reasons (racial, historical, etc.) that I won't delve into here, but no where is it said that combatants suck or merchants are losers and we only keep them around because we absolutely have to.
In my observation of caste system execution, it is always tied to some variation of 1) Higher Castes get a mechanical benefit and no one else does or 2) Everyone in the higher castes are better than everyone else and thus they need to treat everyone like crap, so everyone should pretend like they are a scientist or an artist and lord it over everyone who has different interests.
Neither of those two ways are true to the idea and neither are healthy for the game. On the flip side, while combatants shouldn't be devalued because they are absolutely integral to the health and enjoyment of an org, I think people really need to get over their inferiority complex that being a combatant doesn't automatically promote you to Lord of the Nation and Ruler of All Things. People play the game for a variety of reasons, including PvP, roleplay, designing, bashing, questing, or just for the interactions. Setting up the caste system as an ideal to punish people for doing anything other than a single specific task is really counter to the point of Collectivism and the castes in general.
tl;dr people who contribute should be rewarded for contributing, not punished or made to feel bad about it
You can do this without doing PvP. Think of propaganda in the form of news posts, literature, theatre and so on. Seek to do things that benefit your org through more indirect conflict. I don't advocate outright griefing but show them that you mean business to be the best power collecting / aether hunting / culture winning / ... group. All in the name of your orgs ideals.
That's a nice thought, but from the few weeks that I've been playing Lusternia, there seems to be a very small portion of organization conflict that engages that conflict through propaganda and the like. The vast majority of organization conflict in Lusternia is, really, just PK.
I knew there was a reason I like you more than @Elostian, @Zvoltz
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Personally, what I want to see out of New Celest is something of a more coherent theology from the Supernal-focused guilds. Magnagora was like that when I was there too, so maybe it's just me who cares about the theological underpinnings of various doctrines and laws, but I'd really like to see people praying to the Saints. Or recognizing that they even exist. And wondering about the effects of various actions on their soul, about life after death, the Light, the nature of evil and all of that. Most people just seem to shrug their shoulders and go with "Light=Goodness=Christian Morality" or "Light=Christian Morality=Rage Against Gothically" or "Taint=Satanism=Jesus Elohora Compels You!" instead of engaging the ideas as a coherent philosophy.
The Aquamancers seem to be in a good place, RP-wise, as trying to find a way to cleanse, contain and reverse the Taint. Similarly, the Tahtetso have a wonderful RP basis in Lumosis that doesn't get nearly enough love. Even the Cantors have their Rhapsody/Flock of Miracles thing going on as an aside to the Supernals.
You can do this without doing PvP. Think of propaganda in the form of news posts, literature, theatre and so on. Seek to do things that benefit your org through more indirect conflict. I don't advocate outright griefing but show them that you mean business to be the best power collecting / aether hunting / culture winning / ... group. All in the name of your orgs ideals.
That's a nice thought, but from the few weeks that I've been playing Lusternia, there seems to be a very small portion of organization conflict that engages that conflict through propaganda and the like. The vast majority of organization conflict in Lusternia is, really, just PK.
I would say that the majority of Xenthos' conflict stuff is conflict-RP, not PK. I'll agree that it's not the same for everyone, but I am actually doing some of it as we speak.
I actually enjoy the RP-part more than the rah rah death, on the whole.
I rather enjoy the RP as well. I've my own thoughts on where things should be in the Serenwilde, but since I'm putting a fairly massive amount of those into action over these past few days, we'll see where it goes. I'll post after a little time has passed.
I rather enjoy the RP as well. I've my own thoughts on where things should be in the Serenwilde, but since I'm putting a fairly massive amount of those into action over these past few days, we'll see where it goes. I'll post after a little time has passed.
You can do this without doing PvP. Think of propaganda in the form of news posts, literature, theatre and so on. Seek to do things that benefit your org through more indirect conflict. I don't advocate outright griefing but show them that you mean business to be the best power collecting / aether hunting / culture winning / ... group. All in the name of your orgs ideals.
That's a nice thought, but from the few weeks that I've been playing Lusternia, there seems to be a very small portion of organization conflict that engages that conflict through propaganda and the like. The vast majority of organization conflict in Lusternia is, really, just PK.
I don't agree with that at all, from the few months I've played. What it depends on, I think, is how much you're willing to interact with people and find non-PK ways to compete with others. PK is the most obvious form of organizational conflict, but certainly not the only one. If there's two things that I think Lusternia does better than other IRE games, it's that there are actual, useful ways for non-combatants to participate in city politics(any of the things Rialorm mentioned), and that it's not as simple a concept as 'good vs evil.' Complicated plotlines tend to lead to complicated interactions, but you might have to take some initiative to find it.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
I rather enjoy the RP as well. I've my own thoughts on where things should be in the Serenwilde, but since I'm putting a fairly massive amount of those into action over these past few days, we'll see where it goes. I'll post after a little time has passed.
-dons his wolfskin cloak- Winter is coming.
I'm trying to put this more as a unique thing for us than playing off of GoT. :P
Oh, I've no doubt, but lets be honest. It was the first thing I thought. Will be interesting to see what (if anything) comes of it. As I said above, most attempts at trying to center on a focus tend to get brushed off - but we'll see where it goes.
Magnagora has so many reasons to have a varied populace. We have a myriad of influences - the Demon Lords, Earth Lords, historical figures (eg Ladantine), the Divine Pantheon (Fain, Morgfyre and Raezon), the taint, home of the only entirely mutated race (Viscanti), Jagrerox, etc - all of which may have some similarities, but are also extremely different. The one common denominator is the taint. Within our lore we have room for religious zealots, bloodthirsty warriors, scholars, artists, scientists, hedonists, prim and proper nobles, politicians, and every combination in between.
I think it's too easy to label Magnagora as the 'evil' org, and as such, there seems to be the expectation that we are assholes who live to piss in your beer because ROARGH EVIL. It's true that a lot of people have played to this stereotype, in past and present. That Magnagorans do nothing but destroy and conquer and hate. And some people do, and there are legitimate rp reasons for that, thanks to the influences of the above list, but I think it's only a tiny piece of what Magnagora is.
To me, evil is entirely a matter of perspective. Sure we call things 'unholy', but to us, they are still sacred and to be revered, such as the Demon Lords. Magnagora has embraced what others fear (the taint, undeath, forbidden knowledge, etc) and have thrived from it. From an internal point of view, that doesn't make them the bad guys, it makes them courageous and daring and wise and strong. The Engine of Transformation - a strong, complex unit that changes and ever powers on. We, since the taint, have been given an entirely knew perspective on the world that the other cities lack, all of them wallowing in the inferiority of their pasts. So it our role to bring enlightenment to the ignorant that the taint is not something to be feared but embraced, to show our strength and superiority. We believe and in and accept the teachings of our Divine and the Demon Lords, and we emulate them. That in itself doesn't make us any more evil than a devout Celestian hell bent on destroying viscanti, just because they are afraid of their origins.
I've always played Lavinya as a deeply religious character, and it's why she will never leave Magnagora. Nothing is going to alter a life time of devotion to the Five and Morgfyre save something beyond my own imagination. Not everyone does, and that's something I'd like to see more of, religious crusading I suppose. Fighting to further our beliefs more than flexing muscle for the sake of flexing muscle. Propaganda of how the Taint is the way of the future, stuff like that.
Some things I miss - noble roleplay. It's laced all throughout Mag's historical figures, the superiority of certain houses, the fighting and plotting between them, the looking down on those who weren't of noble blood. However, much like Zvoltz post above, I think people take it as an excuse to stomp on everyone below them and make the game horribly unfun for everyone else, and that is not healthy. I miss serfs grovelling and scampering away from grumpy Marquis, longing for the day when they can prove themselves worthy of rank. Hell, I loved my time bowing and scraping to everyone, secretly remembering names of people I would one day relish stomping on (metaphorically speaking) when I rose to prominence. I miss the days when a simple sermon was attended by everyone as something important to the soul of the city, instead of being considered another boring rp thing that if I'm forced to go to it I will heckle and be a pain in the ass because rp is lame. (Yes that sentence is bitter, and yes that is the reason it's been quite a while since I bothered to perform a sermon or ritual outside of the disorder). I miss the reverence - even if you didn't follow, say Fain, most people (at least publicly) sought not to give offense, and to understand and to an extent respect His teachings. I've heard people speak over the city aether about a certain city god being distasteful, for example, and it struck me as a disrespect of the 'modern generation' that didn't exist when Lavinya was younger (that I recall). If Magnagora forgets about its influences in its divine/DLs etc, it will end up being nothing more than the evil angry grief machine, and that is sad. Every org and every character should have a reason for doing what they do.
I may have swung off on a few tangents there, if I have I'm sorry. These are just some things I've often thought about.
Ok, so I've been thinking about this for a while... and though I do have obvious biases, I do feel that (being from the first generation of Magnagora) I have a rather experienced, deep and articulate view of Magnagora.
Magnagora, from an idealized RP standpoint, is the city of ingenuity, cunning, ruthlessness and cruelty. It indoctrinates its citizens into a harsh lifestyle that forces them to harden themselves both physically and mentally or be culled from the herd. Failure is not an option, and when there IS failure, Magnagora overcomes it with sheer brutality and perseverance. It is not uncommon to see a Viscount slay a lowly labourer simply to educate another on a vital lesson for their survival so that they can better be prepared for future dangers. Those who cannot pull their weight are seen as expendable until they can prove otherwise.
Most important is the idea of progress and ingenuity. It is anathema for Magnagora to be stagnant, content or indolent. Indeed it goes against the very teachings of those whom the city's guilds hold dear: the Demon Lords, Urlach and the Earth Lords (not to mention many of the Pantheon). Undeath is seen as evolution, an escape from the cloying shackles of the Fates. To be Magnagoran is to constantly evolve overcome weakness and grow strong not just individually, but as a nation. To do otherwise is doom. To that end, it is not enough to be happy with current accomplishments... to be content with the way things are. A true Magnagoran always asks themselves "How can we improve? How can we become better than we are now?" and constantly questions and challenges other citizens, even those above their station, to improve as well, or be swept aside like the useless parasites they are.
As well, Magnagora is a city with clearly defined roles and hierarchy. I shall go over them in descending order and clarify what their (idealized) roles are as pertains to Lusternia's RP lore.
The Warlord: ruling above all with an iron fist, and woe be to they who defy his/her authority. The Warlord is the ultimate authority in the city and is in charge of guiding its overall progress from the highest count to the lowest serf. The Warlord's job is more a burden than it is a reward, for he is the one who oversees every task done for the benefit in the city and must weigh the advantages of each military pursuit or cultural advancement. It is his job and right to pull executive decisions for the good of the city, for it is often he alone who can completely fathom the complete picture of all that Magnagora aspires to become.
The Iron Council: Those who advise the Warlord in his duties, and do their best to micromanage the city when the Warlord is unable to attend to certain issues. Their job is to communicate the desires of the guild to the Warlord so that he may consider the best course of action, and to assist the Warlord in making any decisions that require great consideration and thought. They alone have the right to fully enforce the city's laws upon the nobility or high ranking citizens and they answer to none but the Warlord
The noble Great Houses: For ages upon ages, those borne of the nobility have directed and guided Magnagora to prosperity. They often hold important positions and are the people whom most citizens aspire to become, for they set the example of what a true Magnagoran is. They are often seen as snooty and haughty, and rightly so, for the accomplishments of their ancestors have made Magnagora into the shining beacon of freedom that it remains today. Their job is to guide the citizens and educate them on what it means to be a Magnagoran (often through violent means should the citizens not fully comprehend it), and to ensure that the contributions of those long past are never forgotten so to serve as examples of what the common rabble may aspire to, even if they can never hold the privilege and honour of noble blood flowing through their veins. The noble Great Houses police and keep each other in check and often use ruthless and underhanded means to do so, often seeking glory and status through bringing another House down.
The Military: they who have fought, died and bled to protect the city and to expand its borders. They enforce the laws upon the common rabble of the city. They are oft trumpeted and glorified by the city as a whole for their selfless contributions (though it's not unheard of to use the military as a political tool for less-than-honourable endeavors). To be a soldier of Magnagora holds great meaning and deep responsibility, especially those of the Ur'Guard who hold discipline as sacred.
Below them is basically everyone else, the lowly citizens who, while useful, cannot even fathom the privilege of what it is to be higher in the hierarchy. The caveat to this is that all in Magnagora who work hard for the city and show dedication may rise in the ranks.
This is the way that Magnagora should ideally be, and the Magnagora that has, until recently, been in existence.
Turning the clock forward... Magnagora has changed into something else entirely... and I cannot quite explain what. To question the status-quo is to meet one's doom... people are afraid to speak their mind and to challenge those in power for fear of reprimand or punishment. The city has grown into a slogging, sluggish beast that has little spirit except to condemn its own who would seek to try to change things. People may "get along", but they are only content with doing the same boring tasks (and I blame a lot of this on mechanics). Do the Cay quest 50 times and you'll be the most revered hero in the city. Too much emphasis has been placed upon repetitive tasks that serve no lasting function except to temporarily empower the city for a few IG months. It is sad to see what the city's become, especially having lived in times where we've seen the potential Magnagora has.
I hope that things change, because Magnagora is a fantastic city, ripe with great RP potential and the allure of darkness and moral ambiguity that cannot be found elsewhere.
Revan makes a lot of good points about Magnagora, but I think he emphasized "Might Makes Right" a bit too much.
While it's true that most of Old Mag's heriarchy was based on smiteyness, it's worth noting that cunning played a huge factor into it as well.
Veonira, Nariah, Aiakon, Ixchilgal - all had levels of power and control in Magnagora that far exceeded their combat abilities. The ability, and willingness to maneuver pawns - and if you were clever enough, everyone became your pawn, even the nobility - allowed for all sorts of great RP.
Ixchilgal... You were the first person to ever kill me when I first started playing Lusternia. I had the free sipping script that the general newbie population got pointed to at the time and was making my own hunting triggers to cure mob affs.
I had absolutely no idea what I was doing. I walked into a village Mag owned, got hit by a statue, and the next thing I know I got chasm'd and my corpse was petrified by this Mage with a name I could never pronounce.
I have never forgotten that moment or the terror I felt. It was the single most impactful moment that has ever happened to me in Lusty.
At least, I'm 95% sure it was you. To this day, any time I see your name show up on my output, I think of that moment and I smile... Even if it was some other old guard that I'm confusing for you.
The caste system in Hallifax supposes a bottomless population of highly competent people who are content to toil away doing such petty things as attempting to win, in exchange for being actively looked down upon by people who, in terms of game activities, do little to nothing.
Lusternia is not a game where you can totally ignore things like combat and conflict and hope to succeed. Success brings better quality of life, and that, along with an inclusive community, brings population. Lusternia is also not a book-and-play-writing game. That is one component, but we are continually told that Lusternia is a conflict game, full of conflict quests and recurring conflict bouts that require participation.
The caste system in Hallifax is far from dead, it's just been streamlined into [one diminishing clique] and [everybody else]. I've talked to a lot of people in Hallifax about this, and even those who do spend the majority of their time contriving elaborate scientific/engineering projects, writing books, or making plans for artistic/theatre oriented activities feel as though they are outsiders unrecognized for their efforts. But they like the relative calm and quiet, so they are content to just get on with things, demurely disgruntled.
Collectivism and the Caste System are inherently at odds. If every person is a valuable component to the whole, then logic dictates that if an Elite Caste emerges, it should consist of those who contribute the most. They would be the most well-rounded, and show the greatest exertion for the betterment of the org. They improve themselves, and help to improve others because it improves the whole.
On Hallifax it is down on paper that this is not the case. They say, "That's nice and all, but we are mainly concerned with arts and sciences."
The problem is that they have never integrated "the stuff that playing Lusternia primarily consists of" with art or science - and it would be so easy to do. The things required of players during domoths, flares, revolts, &c are prescribed and procedural. There are tested methods of success, which can be honed and continually refined. That is science. Combat itself, as well as various combat situations (tactics), require finesse, elegance, ingenuity, and creativity. That is art. "The Art of War" is not just a catchy title. We're all GoT fans here, right? Just because he only paints in red doesn't make him less an artist.
I'm baffled as to why the players of Hallifax have never embraced this viewpoint. It could be so good.
I'm not saying that Hallifax should be only this, but it needs to do a better job of marrying its premise to the game world, rather than trying to create something that only exists apart from "the rabble." We 'live' in the rabble, even in Hallifax.
As for the snootiness and the extremely rigid formality...
My point of view has always been that any org's negative components should be directed outward, rather than inward. So whereas Glomdoring might be all about deceit and obfuscation, you shouldn't lie to your orgmates, for example. While Magnagora may venerate the ruthless pursuit of personal glory, they shouldn't necessarily be doing it at the cost of their internal infrastructure. Gaudiguch might be about chaos and freedom, but they shouldn't do it at the cost of the most basic order and civility inside the city.
These are all things which have been problematic in the past, and are, imo, problematic for Hallifax now. It's pretty unreasonable to carry on being a snooty elitist when you're lucky to maintain a 6% share of the game's population day to day. You'll end up with no one to look down on but Fraesic and the Comptrollers (and even they cop an attitude).
I feel that much of this is what the Warrior caste should do, they should be striving for perfection and excellence in the martial world. They are the defenders of the Collective, they are the conquerors who will go out to claim territory for the city and destroy anything that threatens her.
Ultimately, are they not truly the greatest of the Castes? The Artists and Scholars are definitely the highest caste, because the society of hallifax is designed around supporting them and enabling their work, each caste "below" them serving some purpose that feeds into their work.
However, the warrior caste should know the truth. They should know that the city would crumble without them, they should know that the fragile scientists and artists would be long dead if it weren't for the protection the Warrior caste offers.
One of the primary things that actually burned me out in Hallifax was the adamant refusal from those in power at the time to actually acknowledge the "lesser" castes.
I would have loved to see effort directed at building up similar things for the Warrior, Merchant, and Bureaucratic castes (servants would be those who haven't earned entry into any of the castes) but from memory it was rejected because everyone should want to be in the higher castes...
Again, the mind set that I took with the bureaucratic caste was similar to what I'd suggest for Warriors. Ultimately, the city will fall apart without the bureaucrats managing everything, those books the scientists and artists love to write might be great and all but no one will know the true glory of the collective if the librarian doesn't do their duty and organise their publishing.
I'd also place the Judges and the like in that caste, so like... if some Scientist decides to go off and perform an experiment that is unauthorised or otherwise deemed illegal then its the bureaucrats and warriors who come knocking on their door who will remind the "higher" castes of their place in the collective.
I rather enjoy the RP as well. I've my own thoughts on where things should be in the Serenwilde, but since I'm putting a fairly massive amount of those into action over these past few days, we'll see where it goes. I'll post after a little time has passed.
-dons his wolfskin cloak- Winter is coming.
I'm trying to put this more as a unique thing for us than playing off of GoT. :P
I'll be honest, I was reading through the post and couldn't stop thinking about Changeling: The Lost.
Saran, though I admit to inspiration from a few elements of that, I point out that many of the things they do with the nWoD games tend to be inspired from RL mythos and other fictional sources.
...and yes, I have the core book for every nWoD and some oWoD splats as well as a few extra books sitting directly to my right. But I mostly play Geist and Mage. :P
Ixchilgal... You were the first person to ever kill me when I first started playing Lusternia. I had the free sipping script that the general newbie population got pointed to at the time and was making my own hunting triggers to cure mob affs.
I had absolutely no idea what I was doing. I walked into a village Mag owned, got hit by a statue, and the next thing I know I got chasm'd and my corpse was petrified by this Mage with a name I could never pronounce.
I have never forgotten that moment or the terror I felt. It was the single most impactful moment that has ever happened to me in Lusty.
At least, I'm 95% sure it was you. To this day, any time I see your name show up on my output, I think of that moment and I smile... Even if it was some other old guard that I'm confusing for you.
Honestly, it was probably me. I was the only person with a name this awful for ages. But if it makes you feel any better, you could probably beat me six ways from sunday now.
Saran, though I admit to inspiration from a few elements of that, I point out that many of the things they do with the nWoD games tend to be inspired from RL mythos and other fictional sources.
...and yes, I have the core book for every nWoD and some oWoD splats as well as a few extra books sitting directly to my right. But I mostly play Geist and Mage. :P
Yeah, I have Changeling the lost, Mage the ascension, and Werewolf the forsaken. So my mind goes more towards Thyrsus and maybe the general werewolf when thinking about Serenwilde.
It might be because I've just read a lot of the Changeling stuff that my mind really heavily associated it, I guess I just hadn't thought of Serenwilde being quite like that.
I just want to say a quick thing on Glom being the merciless forest.
While yes, that's their RP and their focus, from a behind the character standpoint, beating people into the ground over and over and over just because you can takes a certain individual to be able to weather through it. It also just becomes boring for Glom to win-win-win all the time by beating them into submission to the point where no one defends anymore. There isn't any challenge, there isn't any benefit other than 'RP' and I think it's one of those moments you have to step back and say, as a player, 'yeah we showed them, now I need to take care of important Wyrdy business elsewhere'
I enjoy challenging fights, onesided curbstomps are fun every once and awhile, but the more challenging fights are my favorite (ie Justice Steal). Those are the ones I really enjoy as a player.
Personally, what I want to see out of New Celest is something of a more coherent theology from the Supernal-focused guilds. Magnagora was like that when I was there too, so maybe it's just me who cares about the theological underpinnings of various doctrines and laws, but I'd really like to see people praying to the Saints. Or recognizing that they even exist. And wondering about the effects of various actions on their soul, about life after death, the Light, the nature of evil and all of that. Most people just seem to shrug their shoulders and go with "Light=Goodness=Christian Morality" or "Light=Christian Morality=Rage Against Gothically" or "Taint=Satanism=Jesus Elohora Compels You!" instead of engaging the ideas as a coherent philosophy.
The Aquamancers seem to be in a good place, RP-wise, as trying to find a way to cleanse, contain and reverse the Taint. Similarly, the Tahtetso have a wonderful RP basis in Lumosis that doesn't get nearly enough love. Even the Cantors have their Rhapsody/Flock of Miracles thing going on as an aside to the Supernals.
A while back I had gotten Glevich to send Eventru an email asking for the chance to expand more on some rp for the Aquamancers, and he added in some lore info available to us that had me thinking of some pretty cool ideas, but then he left and due to personal matters I haven't really had the chance to get back to it, but hopefully I can at some point.
@Saran the last attempt at Castes [and the one I'd try to draw some inspiration from] actually was more an attempt at building each of the semi-canonical castes [Scientist, Artist, Merchant, Bureaucrat, and Warrior] into equal standing options that each offered tailored RP/mechanical reward [that bit, combined with the divide of labour, probably leading primarily to it stalemating].
And, if we can get eventually get through all the Articles it'd definitely be the interpretation Mael would push for IC [there are even 5 which makes the Zvoo portion of his brain tingle], as hierarchy just doesn't stick in his [or my] mind when thinking of the Collective. Mael would however argue that no caste is greater than any other, beyond maybe the uncasted servants and then it's the duty of the Casted to protect and enrich them [ though lingering thoughts of Bureaucratic being the true power in the Collective would be entertained if not acted on >.=.> ]
.oO---~---Oo.
"Perfect. Please move quickly to the next post, as the effects of
prolonged exposure to the signature are not part of this test."
@Saran the last attempt at Castes [and the one I'd try to draw some inspiration from] actually was more an attempt at building each of the semi-canonical castes [Scientist, Artist, Merchant, Bureaucrat, and Warrior] into equal standing options that each offered tailored RP/mechanical reward [that bit, combined with the divide of labour, probably leading primarily to it stalemating].
And, if we can get eventually get through all the Articles it'd definitely be the interpretation Mael would push for IC [there are even 5 which makes the Zvoo portion of his brain tingle], as hierarchy just doesn't stick in his [or my] mind when thinking of the Collective. Mael would however argue that no caste is greater than any other, beyond maybe the uncasted servants and then it's the duty of the Casted to protect and enrich them [ though lingering thoughts of Bureaucratic being the true power in the Collective would be entertained if not acted on >.=.> ]
That sounds good, like... I think I could have quite some fun with the bureaucrats. But I also believe that everyone, except maybe the servants, should be encouraged to believe that their caste is secretly the most important to the collective.
Though I think the main thing that's standing in the way of this is actually the guilds and their being tied loosely to the castes. Like the Sentinels kinda being the warriors and the Institute kinda being the scholars.
I, as those who know me/Rancoura will find obvious, have always seen Glomdoring as truly a Heart of Darkness - a steadfast bearer of dark beauty (slightly horrific but still tasteful) coupled with the sense of superiority based simply on knowing the secrets of Night, Crow, and being a child of the Wyrd, etc. - possessing strength earned through trial and tribulation - a merciless entity to be feared and awed - completely worthy of utter and eternal devotion. This is the reputation we once had, and while I feel that much of that identity has been lost or otherwise drastically changed (aside from those few who still stick to these ideals, but as Svorai said - most of the people here now are just too nice), in my heart I don't think I've lost complete faith in the possibility that Glomdoring can regain it, despite the disappointments I've personally faced.
I feel as though one of the major causes of the loss of Glomdoring's merciless RP is due simply to the loss of many key characters who shaped Glomdoring and its lore in the beginning of its life (I don't think I need to specify names), whether they simply stopped playing or moved to a different organization altogether. With these characters absent and thus unable to pass down the lore, traditions, and etiquette, bits and pieces were lost over time to the point where mercilessness is now scarce and not nearly as valued as it was in the past.
Of those "old school Gloms" who do remain in the forest, it seems to me that they have simply remained silent while the forest "softened" - I myself am guilty of this. Though, while I have made some attempts (some recent but most near the beginning of what I call "the decline" of Glom RP) to rekindle the old spirit of wyrden elitism and decorum among other things, to my great chagrin I found myself met with high levels of resistance or indifference if not outright rejection (I remember once being indirectly dismissed as "a frigid old hag"). Needless to say, this, along with the absence of many of the kindred spirits I grew as a roleplayer with, was discouraging.
It's difficult not to feel obsolete when the general mindset of the masses differs so much from your own. I understand and have accepted the fact that Glom's current softness encourages more players to both join and stay in this "non-toxic" org, however this has come at the cost of losing much of the lore that once made Glomdoring so awe-inspiring. Further, as a result my (and I refer to myself, the player) have lost a great amount of love for both Glomdoring and the game. It saddens me to admit it, and I apologize if this bit is off-topic, but I feel it's relevant to the discussion.
Anyhow, it's very late, I'm very tired, and so I apologize if parts of this are long-winded/irrelevant/too personal/what-have-you. If need be I'll make changes when rested.
Tonight amidst the mountaintops And endless starless night Singing how the wind was lost Before an earthly flight
@Saran the last attempt at Castes [and the one I'd try to draw some inspiration from] actually was more an attempt at building each of the semi-canonical castes [Scientist, Artist, Merchant, Bureaucrat, and Warrior] into equal standing options that each offered tailored RP/mechanical reward [that bit, combined with the divide of labour, probably leading primarily to it stalemating].
And, if we can get eventually get through all the Articles it'd definitely be the interpretation Mael would push for IC [there are even 5 which makes the Zvoo portion of his brain tingle], as hierarchy just doesn't stick in his [or my] mind when thinking of the Collective. Mael would however argue that no caste is greater than any other, beyond maybe the uncasted servants and then it's the duty of the Casted to protect and enrich them [ though lingering thoughts of Bureaucratic being the true power in the Collective would be entertained if not acted on >.=.> ]
No more articles until you pass my Decorum Articles. I don't care -what- Tulemrah says, the act of being nude isn't a form of art.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
The more and more people talk about "old-school glom," the more resigned I am to not want it to happen ever again. I have heard so many horror stories about it that frankly, I worry that what's happening now might go a little too far. It doesn't help that there is apparent snark coming from a few particular individuals, though I've come to an understanding that those people would probably show it regardless of what's happening.
It's really starting to feel that "old school Glom" was something fun if you were in it, but anti-fun if you weren't. I'm sorry to everyone that wants Glom to be the kill-everything-that-moves sort of merciless, but as long as I'm around, I'll be doing my best to keep things in check. I refuse to see any org fall into a place where it begins robbing people of their fun.
Trust me, I'm all for hunting down particular people who deserve it (and last night is only the beginning). I'm all for the turn of the High Coven claiming Serenwilde unfit to protect the fae. I'm all for us becoming the ruthless protectors of the Maeve. However, the day the raiding ceases to have a point and is just raiding for the sake of raiding, I'm out.
We can be assholes ICly, but we can also do it with tact.
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Most everybody has their own thoughts on the subject and there really hasn't been a lot lately (via players or admin as far as I can tell) to focus and press for something. Most attempts tend to be brushed aside and ignored. So really it comes down to serenwilde not really having a "core ideal" to even really strive for. More like a dozen half-ideals.
The other posts here have been fairly interesting to read, kudos to the contributors.
The caste system and Collectivism are all about the various parts of Hallifax working together to serve the Collective. The problem is that "Higher" castes is always taken literally to mean that everyone is those castes is way better than everyone else and they should look down on the other castes and treat them like crap. Art and Science are valued by Hallifax and considered the pinnacle of mortal achievement for a variety of reasons (racial, historical, etc.) that I won't delve into here, but no where is it said that combatants suck or merchants are losers and we only keep them around because we absolutely have to.
In my observation of caste system execution, it is always tied to some variation of 1) Higher Castes get a mechanical benefit and no one else does or 2) Everyone in the higher castes are better than everyone else and thus they need to treat everyone like crap, so everyone should pretend like they are a scientist or an artist and lord it over everyone who has different interests.
Neither of those two ways are true to the idea and neither are healthy for the game. On the flip side, while combatants shouldn't be devalued because they are absolutely integral to the health and enjoyment of an org, I think people really need to get over their inferiority complex that being a combatant doesn't automatically promote you to Lord of the Nation and Ruler of All Things. People play the game for a variety of reasons, including PvP, roleplay, designing, bashing, questing, or just for the interactions. Setting up the caste system as an ideal to punish people for doing anything other than a single specific task is really counter to the point of Collectivism and the castes in general.
tl;dr people who contribute should be rewarded for contributing, not punished or made to feel bad about it
The Aquamancers seem to be in a good place, RP-wise, as trying to find a way to cleanse, contain and reverse the Taint. Similarly, the Tahtetso have a wonderful RP basis in Lumosis that doesn't get nearly enough love. Even the Cantors have their Rhapsody/Flock of Miracles thing going on as an aside to the Supernals.
I actually enjoy the RP-part more than the rah rah death, on the whole.
I think it's too easy to label Magnagora as the 'evil' org, and as such, there seems to be the expectation that we are assholes who live to piss in your beer because ROARGH EVIL. It's true that a lot of people have played to this stereotype, in past and present. That Magnagorans do nothing but destroy and conquer and hate. And some people do, and there are legitimate rp reasons for that, thanks to the influences of the above list, but I think it's only a tiny piece of what Magnagora is.
To me, evil is entirely a matter of perspective. Sure we call things 'unholy', but to us, they are still sacred and to be revered, such as the Demon Lords. Magnagora has embraced what others fear (the taint, undeath, forbidden knowledge, etc) and have thrived from it. From an internal point of view, that doesn't make them the bad guys, it makes them courageous and daring and wise and strong. The Engine of Transformation - a strong, complex unit that changes and ever powers on. We, since the taint, have been given an entirely knew perspective on the world that the other cities lack, all of them wallowing in the inferiority of their pasts. So it our role to bring enlightenment to the ignorant that the taint is not something to be feared but embraced, to show our strength and superiority. We believe and in and accept the teachings of our Divine and the Demon Lords, and we emulate them. That in itself doesn't make us any more evil than a devout Celestian hell bent on destroying viscanti, just because they are afraid of their origins.
I've always played Lavinya as a deeply religious character, and it's why she will never leave Magnagora. Nothing is going to alter a life time of devotion to the Five and Morgfyre save something beyond my own imagination. Not everyone does, and that's something I'd like to see more of, religious crusading I suppose. Fighting to further our beliefs more than flexing muscle for the sake of flexing muscle. Propaganda of how the Taint is the way of the future, stuff like that.
Some things I miss - noble roleplay. It's laced all throughout Mag's historical figures, the superiority of certain houses, the fighting and plotting between them, the looking down on those who weren't of noble blood. However, much like Zvoltz post above, I think people take it as an excuse to stomp on everyone below them and make the game horribly unfun for everyone else, and that is not healthy. I miss serfs grovelling and scampering away from grumpy Marquis, longing for the day when they can prove themselves worthy of rank. Hell, I loved my time bowing and scraping to everyone, secretly remembering names of people I would one day relish stomping on (metaphorically speaking) when I rose to prominence. I miss the days when a simple sermon was attended by everyone as something important to the soul of the city, instead of being considered another boring rp thing that if I'm forced to go to it I will heckle and be a pain in the ass because rp is lame. (Yes that sentence is bitter, and yes that is the reason it's been quite a while since I bothered to perform a sermon or ritual outside of the disorder). I miss the reverence - even if you didn't follow, say Fain, most people (at least publicly) sought not to give offense, and to understand and to an extent respect His teachings. I've heard people speak over the city aether about a certain city god being distasteful, for example, and it struck me as a disrespect of the 'modern generation' that didn't exist when Lavinya was younger (that I recall). If Magnagora forgets about its influences in its divine/DLs etc, it will end up being nothing more than the evil angry grief machine, and that is sad. Every org and every character should have a reason for doing what they do.
I may have swung off on a few tangents there, if I have I'm sorry. These are just some things I've often thought about.
While it's true that most of Old Mag's heriarchy was based on smiteyness, it's worth noting that cunning played a huge factor into it as well.
Veonira, Nariah, Aiakon, Ixchilgal - all had levels of power and control in Magnagora that far exceeded their combat abilities. The ability, and willingness to maneuver pawns - and if you were clever enough, everyone became your pawn, even the nobility - allowed for all sorts of great RP.
I had absolutely no idea what I was doing. I walked into a village Mag owned, got hit by a statue, and the next thing I know I got chasm'd and my corpse was petrified by this Mage with a name I could never pronounce.
I have never forgotten that moment or the terror I felt. It was the single most impactful moment that has ever happened to me in Lusty.
At least, I'm 95% sure it was you. To this day, any time I see your name show up on my output, I think of that moment and I smile... Even if it was some other old guard that I'm confusing for you.
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I, as those who know me/Rancoura will find obvious, have always seen Glomdoring as truly a Heart of Darkness - a steadfast bearer of dark beauty (slightly horrific but still tasteful) coupled with the sense of superiority based simply on knowing the secrets of Night, Crow, and being a child of the Wyrd, etc. - possessing strength earned through trial and tribulation - a merciless entity to be feared and awed - completely worthy of utter and eternal devotion. This is the reputation we once had, and while I feel that much of that identity has been lost or otherwise drastically changed (aside from those few who still stick to these ideals, but as Svorai said - most of the people here now are just too nice), in my heart I don't think I've lost complete faith in the possibility that Glomdoring can regain it, despite the disappointments I've personally faced.
I feel as though one of the major causes of the loss of Glomdoring's merciless RP is due simply to the loss of many key characters who shaped Glomdoring and its lore in the beginning of its life (I don't think I need to specify names), whether they simply stopped playing or moved to a different organization altogether. With these characters absent and thus unable to pass down the lore, traditions, and etiquette, bits and pieces were lost over time to the point where mercilessness is now scarce and not nearly as valued as it was in the past.
Of those "old school Gloms" who do remain in the forest, it seems to me that they have simply remained silent while the forest "softened" - I myself am guilty of this. Though, while I have made some attempts (some recent but most near the beginning of what I call "the decline" of Glom RP) to rekindle the old spirit of wyrden elitism and decorum among other things, to my great chagrin I found myself met with high levels of resistance or indifference if not outright rejection (I remember once being indirectly dismissed as "a frigid old hag"). Needless to say, this, along with the absence of many of the kindred spirits I grew as a roleplayer with, was discouraging.
It's difficult not to feel obsolete when the general mindset of the masses differs so much from your own. I understand and have accepted the fact that Glom's current softness encourages more players to both join and stay in this "non-toxic" org, however this has come at the cost of losing much of the lore that once made Glomdoring so awe-inspiring. Further, as a result my (and I refer to myself, the player) have lost a great amount of love for both Glomdoring and the game. It saddens me to admit it, and I apologize if this bit is off-topic, but I feel it's relevant to the discussion.
Anyhow, it's very late, I'm very tired, and so I apologize if parts of this are long-winded/irrelevant/too personal/what-have-you. If need be I'll make changes when rested.
Tonight amidst the mountaintops
And endless starless night
Singing how the wind was lost
Before an earthly flight
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
It's really starting to feel that "old school Glom" was something fun if you were in it, but anti-fun if you weren't. I'm sorry to everyone that wants Glom to be the kill-everything-that-moves sort of merciless, but as long as I'm around, I'll be doing my best to keep things in check. I refuse to see any org fall into a place where it begins robbing people of their fun.
Trust me, I'm all for hunting down particular people who deserve it (and last night is only the beginning). I'm all for the turn of the High Coven claiming Serenwilde unfit to protect the fae. I'm all for us becoming the ruthless protectors of the Maeve. However, the day the raiding ceases to have a point and is just raiding for the sake of raiding, I'm out.
We can be assholes ICly, but we can also do it with tact.