Actually, over all the years I've played, I've never once been yelled at for not defending. Not once have people tried to coerce me into raiding with them. Not once tried to convince me to join a domoth challenge. I'm pretty much living proof that it's not impossible.
You play in Glomdoring, though, which has enough hands to cover the combat bases if needed. Other organizations do not have this happy privilege, and when you're being raided day in and day out, you're going to start to feel really resentful towards people who do not bother to defend.
Hallifax hasn't done that, and I've made sure to never do that personally. So it's not a gamewide phenomena. If a certain organization is doing that, they should probably take a look at themselves and make sure that's what they really want to do.
If anything, the people I'd come to resent are the people actually raiding. Though if I start feeling resentful at all, then I know it's time to take a break.
This is way off track. Good job on derailing the administrative channel with Estarra we had open, Alacardael. I really don't blame her if she abandons this thread now. Well played.
Alacardael, you were a Glomdoring member, defending against daily off-peak ethereal raids alongside me back when Glom had the least amount of combatants. Namely, you and me. And the occasional Siam. You know better than to claim that people were harrassed into defending constantly, because that's simply not true, whether we had newbies or not wandering around on prime. Glomdoring has always used favours as incentive for any raiding or defending efforts, not with the harrassing whip. As a previous member, you should be well aware of the number of CR6s that Glomdoring has, and the reason for it. If any org is harrassing those who don't wish to take part, the backlash is always big and fussy. The Wyrdenwood release event, when people were dropping out from the domoth that was simultaneously going on and harsh words (and a disfavour) were exchanged? We had a huge fuss on the forums about it, remember?
If any org is doing that on a constant basis, it should be, and probably would have been, brought to attention already. Occasionally, it happens, when pure numbers are needed to lower the effectiveness of supermobs, or for defending against said supermob raids. Those few occasions when numbers actually make a difference, you will see the enthusiastic person harranging for participants.
Which brings me to my next point. I am truly disappointed to see you turning into nothing but a troll on the forums. You used to have intelligent opinions to offer in the past. You posted to say something about raiding supernals when Celest is low on defenders (in order to argue that there is a valid venue for conflict, I guess) and when Kio pointed out that there is no one to do the raiding, you attempted to use the "numbers don't matter, skill does" line that pops up here and there in other discussions. You have been an established combatant for longer than my playtime, and you should know very well that numbers are everything in a smob raid. You're doing nothing but intentionally confounding the thread of discussion and being obstructive to those who bring their opinions to the table.
The viability of other raiding avenues is a topic that can be debated, sure, and might warrant its own thread. Whether or not people believe, like I do, that making all raiding require the obstacle of discretionary backed defending is the correct thing to do, it is undeniable that godrealm raids garner the most PK. It is also hardly a debate that such PK-only raids occur very infrequently elsewhere nowadays. If you believe, like I do, that such raids are not healthy for the game, then sure, feel free to voice your opinion. However, I believe when Kio and Thul (and Silvanus and others) lament the loss of the godrealms as one such avenue, it is their right to say so as well, and I leave them to voice their opinion in a thread that (used to) have Estarra's attention. I do not attempt to obscure their line of argument with inane and clearly inaccurate sidetracks, as you have done. But well, whatever. Good job on proving that you are capable of posting content that is way beneath the level of maturity I know you (used to?) have.
Aside from all of the huge wall-of-texts here, I will interject with a teeny little post: @Estarra , you don't even really need to change the experience of the mobs (which will leave them as good influencing spots); just remove the gold drops. The only reason I can think of for certain Gods to have their critters bearing gold is so that they can be influenced for free gold by order members every so often, and that's just not needed either. Shikari's realm has only been fully cleared twice. Three other times people have come in, killed a handful of leopards, and then left (or died and didn't come back). These were all incidents without defenders. The two full clears were Magnagorans trying to lure defenders in to a death trap, the other three were people just looking for bashing. When they didn't get gold, they moved on to Nocht's or Viravain's realms, because they are far more lucrative. Bashers are attracted to the easy gold rewards of these zones.
So: 1) Remove gold from -all- the influencable realm mobs. 2) Remove the immunity factor. 3) Make sure that either death or influencing pops the mobs for 4 hours.
They won't be solo-bashed as farms any more really, but instead mostly be raided specifically as a raid.
I don't raid godrealms and have been on the receiving side of some pretty horrible godrealm defenses for years, as well as seeing godrealm mobs farmed for gold during off-peak hours on the logs.
I still don't support this change.
I'm not sure anyone asked for it, whether it be those on the giving or receiving end, so I just wanted to throw that out there.
That said, I will address this post that doesn't necessarily relate to the topic at hand:
Can someone please, PLEASE explain to me why any sort of raiding (especially raiding that has been on a decently predictable schedule with ample time to prepare) is considered bad, annoying, or griefing? I just... don't get it. This is a game about conflict. We're supposed to fight each other. In fact, every single organization pretty much wants to see the rest of them dead, gone, or assimilated, I thought.
You don't like having your territories raided? You don't like having your Godrealm raided? Don't start pleading with the admin to change the mechanics. Start pleading with the other damn players in your alliance that don't like it, get together, strike up some freaking RP, start talking about strategies, and practice defending the things. Why is that so hard to do?
Listen, I'm not going to sit here and complain if Serenwilde, Celest, and Hallifax start bombarding Ethereal Glomdoring. I'm not even going to complain if they start coming in and chopping trees (granted, I don't really understand the entire process of this, and only know that it's an enormous pain to deal with). Why? It's a freaking game that revolves around player conflict. There's no sense in pouting and being upset that your enemy is trying to kill you and take your stuff away. That's what they're supposed to be doing!
You guys are mad because people are killing your 200 priestesses or your 20 whatever-it-is-that-Fain-has-or-had? Do something about it. No. I take that back. Do something about it ICly. You guys are too weak, too lazy, too unorganized, too sour that a couple of people on our side have a skill that makes you die fairly quickly in a group even though you all have plenty of things that are just as terrible? Well, these are all things that you can fix. Too weak? Practice some more. Too lazy? You don't really deserve a right to complain. Too unorganized? Start talking with each other about how you can do better instead of how terrible you're doing now. All these crazy things we can do to you? Figure out how to counter them with teamwork.
And before anyone gets their feelings hurt by some newbie calling them out, the same goes for our side. The only thing is, our side isn't complaining about things at the moment. If we do start complaining, I'll say the exact same thing. No one here is entitled to having their hands held as they stroll merrily through the Basin of Life picking wild flowers. There are people that hate you, and with good IC reason. They want to kill you. They want to see your family maimed, skewered, and on display. Deal with it.
Sorry for that rant. I just sincerely do not understand why raiding is being seen as an issue. I don't get why there's now something put in place discouraging raiding instead of encouraging defending.
Raiding is not considered bad or annoying. No one is stupid here and we all know Lusternia is a conflict game. The solid truth is, some people do it excessively or take it too far and that's the only thing that needs to be discouraged. After 3 years of playing this game, it's pretty clear a lot of people don't raid 'to get a fight'. They raid to buff their k/d ratio or because they know they're getting to people.
I'm not sure anyone asked for it, whether it be those on the giving or receiving end, so I just wanted to throw that out there.
From Estarra's post, it seems like some of the Gods asked for it because it was feeling like a "disincentive" to build large realms. But I'm not sure it really should be seen that way.
Instead you are building something for the entire game to enjoy. Those who are on your side enjoy it for the quests therein, but if someone gets enemied they are automatically barred from that side of things. Their ability to interact with it is limited solely to the more aggressive and violent end. But there is nothing inherently negative about that. Nor should there be any accusation or blame laid on the Divine in question. The Realm is simply a growth of Their will, defending it is something entirely up to the mortal realm.
Just adjust it so that gold-farmers have no reason to go gold-farming there and they are returned to their original design intent.
I'm actually out of town for family reasons, but I have been checking in and I greenlighted the change after some discussion. However, we're certainly open to tweaks. I'll tell you my perspective and you can weigh in.
God realms are personal projects of gods, earned through their own efforts and/or through essence accumulated. There's very little personal creative outlets or rewards for gods but god realms are one of them. So the main point of god realms is to give gods a perk for themselves and their orders and for some conflict among the various factions.
However, when it gets to the point where realms are used for a grinding bashfest over and over and over and over and over and over, 24/7, and the morale of the order is sapped to the point where they don't want to be in the order or blame the god for not 'defending' his or her realm, it makes sense to look at the situation, especially when it comes to the point where gods would rather remove their realms which really is at odds with the main intent that it was meant as a perk and a creative outlet for them to enjoy. Why should gods want to expand or make large realms if the repercussion is not an enjoyable experience for themselves and their orders?
Speaking for myself, I can say that when Morg's realm was raided frequently, often when I was the only order member around, I never felt the way you described. I just ignored the raiders. There were never any IC repercussions for doing that, and it never really bothered me. Not sure how other Morg followers felt about it. You lose a bit of essence for your order creatures dying, but it was never a huge deal. Maybe this only applies to Eventru, because his realm is so large?
How much essence is lost when an ordermob is killed? If there's enough essence to build that monster of a godrealm, shouldn't it be fairly easy to replace the essence from their deaths?
If I'm understanding everything correctly, the number of godmobs is directly related to the number of rooms in the realm, right? Well, if that's the case, why not just throw on a diminishing return after X amount of rooms? Means there's still an incentive to expand, but smaller godrealms will go largely (or even wholly) unchanged while the large ones don't risk losing as much essence due to mob deaths?
This would still leave us with a nice place to go pewpewin' against each other, too.
I do understand the concept of realms being a God's reward for their work, but then realm raiding has existed since I first started here back in 2010 and nothing at all that I can remember has ever changed in regards to realms, mobs, or raids on them till now. As Sidd pointed out, Mag used to get hammered all the time, and they did the same a good portion of the time to Seren realms. Is the only difference between now and then that our Divine and Order members didn't voice complaints loudly enough? Should I have been berating Raezon for not making his realm easier to protect? Should I have been yelling and cursing out order members for not defending?
I mean, Nydekion, Malicia, and Veyrzhul used to live in Mag god realms. For weeks at a time whenever Veyrzhul was done with a semester(I just assume college life to explain the gaps in his activity) I would ALWAYS log in to a Fain realm raid and at the very least a Morgfyre camp or someone speed bashing lambencies. I'm not trying to say that because this had no effect on us, that it shouldn't have effect on Celest Gods and Orders, my thing is that if these Gods felt that this was a bad thing for their Orders and the realms they worked to make, where was their input when it wasn't happening to them?
These guys are volunteers, they know what each other are doing and for a general sense whats happening to their interests. You're telling me that through all the previous years Eventru or Terentia or (insert any Divine) didn't go "Hey Raez/Morg/Horacle/etc, you sure do get raided a lot, I don't think that's right because that's your reward project for the work you do, maybe we should discuss altering it?" To me and a lot of players, it simply looks like a case of "Wow, logs and loyal says are getting spammed with a 100 deaths a day and my order isn't happy, guess it's a problem now and needs fixing."
I'm not knocking our divine players, I fully understand what they go through on a daily basis and while I may personally dislike what some of them do, or how they do it, I certainly respect the effort of the work at least. I just feel like if it was an issue then, why did no one step in and say as much then and offer ways to change it? If it's broke, then fix it, but don't wait till it effects you and yours personally to agree that it IS broke and THEN want to fix it.
However, I think beating a dead horse on this will never get us anywhere. While some of us may want Eventru to come right out and say "Yeah this was because I didn't like hundreds of my mobs dying every other day, sorry guys." We're not going to get that, and it won't do anything but enlarge egos and fuel backroom debates on bias that no one really needs. This will slow down raiding avenues, which isn't needed, but it'll give certain groups less things to complain about which is a win for everyone.
How much essence is lost when an ordermob is killed? If there's enough essence to build that monster of a godrealm, shouldn't it be fairly easy to replace the essence from their deaths?
If I'm understanding everything correctly, the number of godmobs is directly related to the number of rooms in the realm, right? Well, if that's the case, why not just throw on a diminishing return after X amount of rooms? Means there's still an incentive to expand, but smaller godrealms will go largely (or even wholly) unchanged while the large ones don't risk losing as much essence due to mob deaths?
This would still leave us with a nice place to go pewpewin' against each other, too.
That'd mean they'd be diluted instead though. One mob per 10 rooms gives a much better protection than one mob per 20 or 30 rooms.
Although spinning off the idea a little, perhaps being able to separate a realm into several areas, and only the "main" area having (and generating) mobs. So when a God feel like it, they can start adding on rooms that don't add mobs, but nor will they actually go there. The main part of the realm will still be protected, but the extensions won't (at least not by mobs).
How much essence is lost when an ordermob is killed? If there's enough essence to build that monster of a godrealm, shouldn't it be fairly easy to replace the essence from their deaths?
If I'm understanding everything correctly, the number of godmobs is directly related to the number of rooms in the realm, right? Well, if that's the case, why not just throw on a diminishing return after X amount of rooms? Means there's still an incentive to expand, but smaller godrealms will go largely (or even wholly) unchanged while the large ones don't risk losing as much essence due to mob deaths?
This would still leave us with a nice place to go pewpewin' against each other, too.
That'd mean they'd be diluted instead though. One mob per 10 rooms gives a much better protection than one mob per 20 or 30 rooms.
Although spinning off the idea a little, perhaps being able to separate a realm into several areas, and only the "main" area having (and generating) mobs. So when a God feel like it, they can start adding on rooms that don't add mobs, but nor will they actually go there. The main part of the realm will still be protected, but the extensions won't (at least not by mobs).
Precisely. All the raiding will happen in one area, and the rest around it is all RP'y. Of course, order members won't get anything to influence, and that will cut into their XP-gain (and the gods essence-gain), so I think most Gods would still opt to have a central area with mobs and have other areas (cult-shrines, for instance) separate from it.
Hey, does this mean I can actually finish my quests now? I had honestly gave up trying because every time I stepped foot on there some jerk raider would hunt me down and PKz me. You know... for lulz.. Or even better, when I was Halfway done and they PK'd me. AND I DROPPED EVERYTHING AND HAD TO START OVER AGAIN!?! It got so bad I got I bought a gem of cloaking. I also traded it in because I STILL was hunted down. No repercussions? No problem for other people? Please. I've gotten to the point where I don't want to log in anymore because some griefer got bored and decided to kick some mob and start trouble. Why not, I dunno find some other bored person and PK with them. Not harass some noncom. /endrant
Thank you for this change. I might actually want to log in now.
You can still be hunted down and killed there, the fact that the mobs might be invulnerable doesn't actual mean you are safe from being raided. Some people like to kill anyone who happens to be an enemy of an org they belong to. I could walk in, scent, see you and then kill you because your enemied to Magnagora.
Granted, debates on raider sportsmanship are probably left elsewhere.
I think this entire thing does get back to what meaningful raids are, and what meaningful conflict is. Raiding god realms before did mechanically nothing of note, if no one bothered to defend. The only real way for the raid to end was for one side or the other to get bored and give up. The fight becomes a race to make the game the most boring for the other side. As defenders, this is often best achieved by not showing up, and not giving attackers the satisfaction. As attackers, it's generally achieved by just being as annoying as possible, even if you're not gaining anything - or are indeed losing experience and time. There are no real objectives to the raid, so there is nothing to be achieved or thwarted.
As these and other potentially griefy (in one way or another, @Estarra describes constant god realm 'raids' as being detrimental to the creativity of the admins) forms of 'raiding' are slowly closed off and made unfeasible, can there please be concerted effort to come up with different forms of mechanical conflict that don't support hit-and-runs or fights-for-the-sake-of-fights, neither of which ultimately are much fun for anyone, beyond the very short term for the side that happens to be 'winning' (out-boring the other side)? A return to ideas like the 'dharma' thread, but actuated: Fights that have some set-up, have objectives that are relative to the difficulty of the setup, mechanical ways to really hinder the completion of those objectives putside of boring the opposition into quitting, and potential benefits/penalities relative to all of the above?
In about 5 days, I'll have been playing this game for a year.
When I first started in Magnagora I was in an organisation that got raided around the clock, Earth Lords, Nil and God realms constantly wiped out, Morgfyre's realm was a water park from the amount of times Veyrzhul would clear it out and meld it over. Back then people raided Magnagora at all hours for a laugh and there was really little that could be done, numbers were low, combatants were often few. The only feedback we got was that we clearly had to do better at defending our territory, not that the game mechanics would be changed to make defence easier (infact some attackers were complaining that it wasn't easier because they kept dying to the Gorefire Hydra)
So back then, a young determined Orclach made two vows.
1: To get a damn sight stronger to defend when things that mattered were being attacked. 2: To get strong enough to put the shoe on the other foot and beat the heck out of Celest's God realms the way they had done to us for so long
Conflict breeding conflict, great for a game where PK has such a strong element right, and for a game where RP is such a core focus, this even had a great reason for justification, it was a story practically writing itself on the actions and interactions of other players.
Well it seems I'm not the only person who had this line of thought, as recently Celest has been on the receiving end of some hefty God realm beat downs for a few weeks now, the odd fight now and then. Meanwhile, Morkarion, the little Orclach that could, finally got to start making good on promise two when he spent a good day and a bit beating out all 200+ priestesses in Eventru's realm. Prepared with traps, constant who/scent, checking pk declarations to see who'd possibly be around to raise the alarm.
And this was rather theraputic to the Orclach, he was starting to get a measure of payback for days, months and years of endless attacks against which he had little to no chance to stop. Revenge might be described as unhealthy for some, but for this Orclach it was one of the best days in his almost 50 years of life and slaughter. This in no short part to his loathing of Eventru (note at this point OOCly I have zero issue with the person that plays Eventru, all distaste and hostility is completely character to character based) considering him little more than a sanctimonious, loud mouthed, egotistical ... well prick really. He's very much near the top of a list of people Mork would gladly throw into Kethuru's maw given the slightest opportunity. The fact his promise provided him with the chance to strike at His realm, and kill His servants, and drain on His essence was the icing on a very big cake, the gold was like sprinkles added on top, nice but not necessary.
And so Morkarion would continue fulfilling his promises while expressing his personal beliefs against certain Divines...
Or not. Because this change has essentially removed the ability to raid God realms entirely. Because mobs can be influenced, and reinfluenced before their invulnerability falls off. God realms have been essentially removed from the world of conflict, when they were already a challenge to hunt considering the mobs had a good chance of clumping up and hitting like trucks, and then pursuing you should you try to get out of the deathroom. Defenders could attack while people and groups were trying to beat their way through a cluster, or gust/scissorflip people and easily cause chaos.
This has taken a source of key conflict out of the game entirely, even with the loyal mobs this was one of the most equal battlegrounds for conflict, people couldn't bring numbers and still shrine/discretionary the place up to either guarantee an easy win or put the attacking side off the idea of fighting entirely because of the high level of disadvantage they were put at. Furthermore consider the already rarely used mechanic of Order wars, this makes them even more impossible now.
Another issue is the timing of this change, it wasn't necessary 12 months ago when one side was being raided around the clock, but it's necessary now when the other side is getting hit "Several times a week" (as opposed to several times a day) There's a running joke/source of rage about "Celest bias" that people like to constantly bring up, times where admin decisions have been made that only seemingly happen when it's of benefit to that one organisation. I think the last one happened regarding Avechna peacing and Ascension. While I don't want to play the conspiracy theory card, these situations constantly happen, and all it accomplishes is to feed the paranoia and further the unnecessary existence of bitterness and distrust of admin some players build up. Now while players shouldn't be distrusting of the admin's integrity, at the same time, situations like this shouldn't arise out of the blue where it's clear the benefits of a change were made because of that one organisation again.
As I said earlier, this wasn't necessary 12 months ago, we were encouraged to try harder, defend better, be tactical and think of ways we could fend off these endless raids, why is that same message not being said today? Celest isn't incapable of defending, it's part of an organisation and an alliance that has combatants, and I've seen these people around at all hours.
Why are we essentially turning places of conflict and war into glorified free influencing grounds where people can just grind 200+ mobs over and over again all day with little risk of being killed, because anyone entering has to pass a swarm of pursuing, high damage, invincible mobs? I understand Divines want to see their work appreciated by their Order. But a Divine has interaction with more than just their Order members, their Order members have more than just interaction with their Divine. This is a game where the story talks of conflict between the Divines, it's played out on a regular basis, and now we're going to take out a huge chunk of that conflict interaction because...?
Also for the record I'd like to say a Divine's order is not the only group of people who appreciate their realm, I've really enjoyed the descriptions and layouts of some of the ones I've raided, just because I'm hacking and slashing my way through creatures while I'm there doesn't mean I don't appreciate the thought and work gone into it any less. I firmly agree with the idea that to remove it from being "just a bashing ground" the gold cost can be toned down, so can the essence/xp value infact. But don't remove the option of conflict that's a core part of the story, I can't claim to read minds or understand thought processes, but if I was a Divine that had incurred the wrath of people so much that they took the time to go against my work and smash it up, I wouldn't be wanting to remove that option of conflict, I'd be looking for ways to better defend my realm ICly. Whether it's encouraging my followers and their allies, or finding ways to slow down and hinder the pace of any assault, not to find a metagame solution that makes raiding impossible.
To close I'd just like to sum up my opinion. If #322 wasn't needed 12 months ago when this was a more frequent issue, it isn't needed now.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I think this entire thing does get back to what meaningful raids are, and what meaningful conflict is. Raiding god realms before did mechanically nothing of note, if no one bothered to defend. The only real way for the raid to end was for one side or the other to get bored and give up. The fight becomes a race to make the game the most boring for the other side. As defenders, this is often best achieved by not showing up, and not giving attackers the satisfaction. As attackers, it's generally achieved by just being as annoying as possible, even if you're not gaining anything - or are indeed losing experience and time. There are no real objectives to the raid, so there is nothing to be achieved or thwarted.
As these and other potentially griefy (in one way or another, @Estarra describes constant god realm 'raids' as being detrimental to the creativity of the admins) forms of 'raiding' are slowly closed off and made unfeasible, can there please be concerted effort to come up with different forms of mechanical conflict that don't support hit-and-runs or fights-for-the-sake-of-fights, neither of which ultimately are much fun for anyone, beyond the very short term for the side that happens to be 'winning' (out-boring the other side)? A return to ideas like the 'dharma' thread, but actuated: Fights that have some set-up, have objectives that are relative to the difficulty of the setup, mechanical ways to really hinder the completion of those objectives putside of boring the opposition into quitting, and potential benefits/penalities relative to all of the above?
Apparently once upon a time, there *were* objectives to raiding, like killing avatars. Then people decided they didn't like the avatars dieing, so they were made very very difficult to kill, and people stopped trying.
Now if you want a fight that is not at a specific time or a domoth, I don't think there are any achievable or worthwhile objectives left to complete, so its just kill whatever, get some gold, and when you get bored leave.
So if having no objectives is bad, and having objectives is bad, what do we do?
I think this entire thing does get back to what meaningful raids are, and what meaningful conflict is. Raiding god realms before did mechanically nothing of note, if no one bothered to defend. The only real way for the raid to end was for one side or the other to get bored and give up. The fight becomes a race to make the game the most boring for the other side. As defenders, this is often best achieved by not showing up, and not giving attackers the satisfaction. As attackers, it's generally achieved by just being as annoying as possible, even if you're not gaining anything - or are indeed losing experience and time. There are no real objectives to the raid, so there is nothing to be achieved or thwarted.
As these and other potentially griefy (in one way or another, @Estarra describes constant god realm 'raids' as being detrimental to the creativity of the admins) forms of 'raiding' are slowly closed off and made unfeasible, can there please be concerted effort to come up with different forms of mechanical conflict that don't support hit-and-runs or fights-for-the-sake-of-fights, neither of which ultimately are much fun for anyone, beyond the very short term for the side that happens to be 'winning' (out-boring the other side)? A return to ideas like the 'dharma' thread, but actuated: Fights that have some set-up, have objectives that are relative to the difficulty of the setup, mechanical ways to really hinder the completion of those objectives putside of boring the opposition into quitting, and potential benefits/penalities relative to all of the above?
Apparently once upon a time, there *were* objectives to raiding, like killing avatars. Then people decided they didn't like the avatars dieing, so they were made very very difficult to kill, and people stopped trying.
Now if you want a fight that is not at a specific time or a domoth, I don't think there are any achievable or worthwhile objectives left to complete, so its just kill whatever, get some gold, and when you get bored leave.
So if having no objectives is bad, and having objectives is bad, what do we do?
Like @Daedalion said, afk at the nexus and collect curios.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Apparently once upon a time, there *were* objectives to raiding, like killing avatars. Then people decided they didn't like the avatars dieing, so they were made very very difficult to kill, and people stopped trying.
Now if you want a fight that is not at a specific time or a domoth, I don't think there are any achievable or worthwhile objectives left to complete, so its just kill whatever, get some gold, and when you get bored leave.
So if having no objectives is bad, and having objectives is bad, what do we do?
Correction: people didn't like hit-run raids 24/7. The ones that were hit-run raided were things like angels/demons/ladies/daughters, but the administration instead overly buffed s-mobs rather than the mobs that were actually raided day in and day out.
People also didn't like the fact that, if an s-mob did die, the raiding organizations would lock down Elemental planes and Xion to prevent the raising of the dead s-mobs. The administration did a better change this time; they buffed enemy plane insanity to discourage camping.
The only objective for hit-run 24/7 raids is to annoy the raided organization, nothing more. That is bad, and that is the objective that should be shut down. Other objectives -- stealing a domoth, villages, s-mob raids (without being over-done) are fine.
If it's broken, break it some more.
0
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
I think this entire thing does get back to what meaningful raids are, and what meaningful conflict is. Raiding god realms before did mechanically nothing of note, if no one bothered to defend. The only real way for the raid to end was for one side or the other to get bored and give up. The fight becomes a race to make the game the most boring for the other side. As defenders, this is often best achieved by not showing up, and not giving attackers the satisfaction. As attackers, it's generally achieved by just being as annoying as possible, even if you're not gaining anything - or are indeed losing experience and time. There are no real objectives to the raid, so there is nothing to be achieved or thwarted.
As these and other potentially griefy (in one way or another, @Estarra describes constant god realm 'raids' as being detrimental to the creativity of the admins) forms of 'raiding' are slowly closed off and made unfeasible, can there please be concerted effort to come up with different forms of mechanical conflict that don't support hit-and-runs or fights-for-the-sake-of-fights, neither of which ultimately are much fun for anyone, beyond the very short term for the side that happens to be 'winning' (out-boring the other side)? A return to ideas like the 'dharma' thread, but actuated: Fights that have some set-up, have objectives that are relative to the difficulty of the setup, mechanical ways to really hinder the completion of those objectives putside of boring the opposition into quitting, and potential benefits/penalities relative to all of the above?
Apparently once upon a time, there *were* objectives to raiding, like killing avatars. Then people decided they didn't like the avatars dieing, so they were made very very difficult to kill, and people stopped trying.
Now if you want a fight that is not at a specific time or a domoth, I don't think there are any achievable or worthwhile objectives left to complete, so its just kill whatever, get some gold, and when you get bored leave.
So if having no objectives is bad, and having objectives is bad, what do we do?
Except that wasn't the objective. The objective has never been "kill x being". The objective has always been to cause as much devastation on as grand a scale as possible. It has meant that any and all ways of demoralizing the opponent are fair game. Nobody complains when an avatar or demon lord or supernal falls. Nobody complains when they all fall. Nobody complains when they fall every week.
They complain when the beings fall, the planes are camped, those gathering essence are hunted down, nightly kick-and-run raids destroy fledgling defenders, and all at the same time for a weeks on end. Because it quickly becomes no fun.
As a non-com, I would love to see some big raids again. The problem I see is what happens in all games like this--enough people get as powerful as possible, then want more. So the game creates things to make them even more powerful. And again, when enough people get that powerful, the game creates something to make them more powerful. Raids were curtailed because players are just too powerful now--meanwhile, new players are at a significant, significant disadvantage to be viable participants.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
They still do. And charity influence doesn't make them scream loyalsays when I 'raid' them that way, heh. You don't have to be an order member to wheedle them. I'm pretty sure the Divine have control over the gold drops already, though. Some realms never have a single sovereign, even though others are loaded. I'm also pretty sure that the gold they have had absolutely nothing to do with this change.
Perma-raiding apparently did. And even though some people say they aren't impacted negatively by it, some people are. I think constant griefing in that manner clearly does have a psychological impact. At best, annoyance, and at worst, bitterness (and sometimes it is damned near constant; I remember hourly kick and run 'raids' in the past) Really, all the evidence either way on that argument is anecdotal at best, though. What does seem to be a common theme over the years, though, is that it's a rather small minority spoiling the pot for the majority who are just trying to have fun with other players, rather than irritate them.
IDEA: Lock out those few people who go to extremes, and leave the status quo for everybody who does not. You can use those very extremes to set the bar for a hard-coded limit. It would just take a rather clearly defined limit of what that extreme is, and I have no idea what that would be. Fifty loyals a day? A hundred? Whatever it is, when reached, anybody griefing to that level is affected by essentially the opposite of distort for a while, and find themselves unable to enter, or at least enter without a great deal of hassle. But again, I have no idea what would actually be a reasonable amount of time for such an effect to hold. Obviously, this would only affect org-loyal planes (or just the demiplane like etherseren or whatever). This would not impede groups who are actually there to try to fight players instead of kicking mobs. But it would limit the annoyance of those who are not there for that purpose, only limiting those few who are only there to annoy after they've had their bit of fun for "long enough" (whatever "long enough" would be decided to mean.)
This seems especially reasonable in terms of godrealms, where the Gods themselves would be entirely justified on an IC level to simply zap the offender to oblivion just as repeatedly as their wards are attacked, if sufficiently annoyed with such a trespass (as apparently some are). Or even use their magicks within their own little pocket of existence to simply disallow such a trespasser to even enter the damned place for a while.
Thoughts?
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
It'd need to be a number that is variant on the number of NPCs in a realm.
100 could clear out all the Seren God realms for example, wouldn't cover half of Eventru's, not sure how big Morg's is these days either but that's had quite the expansion.
Also it'd have to not count invasion shrine mobs as loyals.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
If this was going to encourage Gods to design bigger realms without getting the door kicked in every day, aren't we essentially ending up with giant influence arenas with a ton of free esteem? The mobs giving very good rewards for extremely little risk (seriously you try killing someone who's running through a ton of unkillable tracking murdermobs)
I mean if that's an intended effect that you want then sure, but it seems to really skew the whole risk/reward and benefit those who just happened to pick the right Divine (not to mention some people will cherry pick Divines based on who has the biggest godrealm so they can get more benefit without actually looking at it from an IC PoV)
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Welp. Time to move to Celest and AFK my way to Demigod.
(I'm sorry. I couldn't help it, because really, when those things are invulnerable, sit in stacks of 12, and attack the people trying to kill me, what else could I ask for?)
Welp. Time to move to Celest and AFK my way to Demigod.
You can already do this without moving to Celest. Aetherbash or Astralbash to the top.
Last time I aetherbashed, a Divine spoke on our SHIPT to make sure no one was AFK. Astral is open PK and I know lots of folk who enjoy jumping on people while they're linking.
So I just had an idea for this, well I've had tons of ideas for this, but this one's worth posting.
Firstly: Make a secondary syntax for immune mobs, (So where as Merian or Priestess targets non empowered, Sanctified would target empowered for example)
Secondly: Empowered mobs do not aggress on room entry. If you attack them or non empowered mobs in the room then you're asking for it and they'll proceed as normal.
Finally: You can weaken empowered mobs to strip their invulnerability, they will vanish for a set time (1-2 hours) so you can't just weaken/immediately attack. When they return they will be standard order realm mobs that can be re-empowered by Order members or killed and respawn in x hours as automatically empowered.
So what does this actually accomplish? Well for one, it doesn't turn Godrealms into giant overprotected carebear areas off prime, and still let's them be a source of conflict, however those wanting to raid cannot simply do so every respawn clear and have to weaken and wait before they can assault. So there's still a viable means of raiding, but at the same time there's options for the order members to defend by simply maintaining the realm's denizens by ensuring they remain empowered (which rewards itself really with essence/xp and esteem) with a risk that they might be attacked.
Should there be a dead order, well the mobs will remain empowered for 8 hours after any raid so they can't be gibbed again.
Also means that if a Divine does expand their realm of influence, everyone gets to appreciate their design work, without having to do a Benny Hill with three figures' worth of angry mobs chasing them.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I also want to vouch support for the idea of removing all gold drops from god realm mobs. Besides all other factors, they really do add a huge chunk of gold to the game that wouldn't exist otherwise.
Begging in other god's realms > begging from anything and everything else in the game, period.
Having endured the near constant godrealm raids of last year with few or no defenders, I kind of like the idea of knowing the mobs will be protected, but by the same token, I don't actually think it is a healthy change. I often -did- turn off loyal says, thanks to the constant Nil and Morgfyre raids that I could do nothing about (save die horribly). It's not enjoyable to hear, I get that. Removing the gold/essence reward for killing the mobs will take away the 'bashing ground' feel of these raids, while still leaving them open for inter-order conflict. We can't strike out at a god, no, but we can strike at their loyal denizens. How else could I do my god's will and destroy those He abhors? (Terentia and Eventru). I can't kill Their followers myself, I could frown at them menacingly (which doesn't do much), or I could join a raiding party and take down that which They hold dear. No big cost to them, but an outlet for us to strike out. Please don't take that away, which I think this change does.
tl;dr - Remove/lower gold and xp benefits so the realms are less an awesome bashing ground and more an area for inter-order conflict.
Comments
Alacardael, you were a Glomdoring member, defending against daily off-peak ethereal raids alongside me back when Glom had the least amount of combatants. Namely, you and me. And the occasional Siam. You know better than to claim that people were harrassed into defending constantly, because that's simply not true, whether we had newbies or not wandering around on prime. Glomdoring has always used favours as incentive for any raiding or defending efforts, not with the harrassing whip. As a previous member, you should be well aware of the number of CR6s that Glomdoring has, and the reason for it. If any org is harrassing those who don't wish to take part, the backlash is always big and fussy. The Wyrdenwood release event, when people were dropping out from the domoth that was simultaneously going on and harsh words (and a disfavour) were exchanged? We had a huge fuss on the forums about it, remember?
If any org is doing that on a constant basis, it should be, and probably would have been, brought to attention already. Occasionally, it happens, when pure numbers are needed to lower the effectiveness of supermobs, or for defending against said supermob raids. Those few occasions when numbers actually make a difference, you will see the enthusiastic person harranging for participants.
Which brings me to my next point. I am truly disappointed to see you turning into nothing but a troll on the forums. You used to have intelligent opinions to offer in the past. You posted to say something about raiding supernals when Celest is low on defenders (in order to argue that there is a valid venue for conflict, I guess) and when Kio pointed out that there is no one to do the raiding, you attempted to use the "numbers don't matter, skill does" line that pops up here and there in other discussions. You have been an established combatant for longer than my playtime, and you should know very well that numbers are everything in a smob raid. You're doing nothing but intentionally confounding the thread of discussion and being obstructive to those who bring their opinions to the table.
The viability of other raiding avenues is a topic that can be debated, sure, and might warrant its own thread. Whether or not people believe, like I do, that making all raiding require the obstacle of discretionary backed defending is the correct thing to do, it is undeniable that godrealm raids garner the most PK. It is also hardly a debate that such PK-only raids occur very infrequently elsewhere nowadays. If you believe, like I do, that such raids are not healthy for the game, then sure, feel free to voice your opinion. However, I believe when Kio and Thul (and Silvanus and others) lament the loss of the godrealms as one such avenue, it is their right to say so as well, and I leave them to voice their opinion in a thread that (used to) have Estarra's attention. I do not attempt to obscure their line of argument with inane and clearly inaccurate sidetracks, as you have done. But well, whatever. Good job on proving that you are capable of posting content that is way beneath the level of maturity I know you (used to?) have.
Aside from all of the huge wall-of-texts here, I will interject with a teeny little post:
@Estarra , you don't even really need to change the experience of the mobs (which will leave them as good influencing spots); just remove the gold drops. The only reason I can think of for certain Gods to have their critters bearing gold is so that they can be influenced for free gold by order members every so often, and that's just not needed either.
Shikari's realm has only been fully cleared twice. Three other times people have come in, killed a handful of leopards, and then left (or died and didn't come back). These were all incidents without defenders.
The two full clears were Magnagorans trying to lure defenders in to a death trap, the other three were people just looking for bashing. When they didn't get gold, they moved on to Nocht's or Viravain's realms, because they are far more lucrative. Bashers are attracted to the easy gold rewards of these zones.
So:
1) Remove gold from -all- the influencable realm mobs.
2) Remove the immunity factor.
3) Make sure that either death or influencing pops the mobs for 4 hours.
They won't be solo-bashed as farms any more really, but instead mostly be raided specifically as a raid.
Instead you are building something for the entire game to enjoy. Those who are on your side enjoy it for the quests therein, but if someone gets enemied they are automatically barred from that side of things. Their ability to interact with it is limited solely to the more aggressive and violent end. But there is nothing inherently negative about that. Nor should there be any accusation or blame laid on the Divine in question. The Realm is simply a growth of Their will, defending it is something entirely up to the mortal realm.
Just adjust it so that gold-farmers have no reason to go gold-farming there and they are returned to their original design intent.
Although spinning off the idea a little, perhaps being able to separate a realm into several areas, and only the "main" area having (and generating) mobs. So when a God feel like it, they can start adding on rooms that don't add mobs, but nor will they actually go there. The main part of the realm will still be protected, but the extensions won't (at least not by mobs).
In about 5 days, I'll have been playing this game for a year.
When I first started in Magnagora I was in an organisation that got raided around the clock, Earth Lords, Nil and God realms constantly wiped out, Morgfyre's realm was a water park from the amount of times Veyrzhul would clear it out and meld it over. Back then people raided Magnagora at all hours for a laugh and there was really little that could be done, numbers were low, combatants were often few. The only feedback we got was that we clearly had to do better at defending our territory, not that the game mechanics would be changed to make defence easier (infact some attackers were complaining that it wasn't easier because they kept dying to the Gorefire Hydra)
So back then, a young determined Orclach made two vows.
1: To get a damn sight stronger to defend when things that mattered were being attacked.
2: To get strong enough to put the shoe on the other foot and beat the heck out of Celest's God realms the way they had done to us for so long
Conflict breeding conflict, great for a game where PK has such a strong element right, and for a game where RP is such a core focus, this even had a great reason for justification, it was a story practically writing itself on the actions and interactions of other players.
Well it seems I'm not the only person who had this line of thought, as recently Celest has been on the receiving end of some hefty God realm beat downs for a few weeks now, the odd fight now and then. Meanwhile, Morkarion, the little Orclach that could, finally got to start making good on promise two when he spent a good day and a bit beating out all 200+ priestesses in Eventru's realm. Prepared with traps, constant who/scent, checking pk declarations to see who'd possibly be around to raise the alarm.
And this was rather theraputic to the Orclach, he was starting to get a measure of payback for days, months and years of endless attacks against which he had little to no chance to stop. Revenge might be described as unhealthy for some, but for this Orclach it was one of the best days in his almost 50 years of life and slaughter. This in no short part to his loathing of Eventru (note at this point OOCly I have zero issue with the person that plays Eventru, all distaste and hostility is completely character to character based) considering him little more than a sanctimonious, loud mouthed, egotistical ... well prick really. He's very much near the top of a list of people Mork would gladly throw into Kethuru's maw given the slightest opportunity. The fact his promise provided him with the chance to strike at His realm, and kill His servants, and drain on His essence was the icing on a very big cake, the gold was like sprinkles added on top, nice but not necessary.
Or not. Because this change has essentially removed the ability to raid God realms entirely. Because mobs can be influenced, and reinfluenced before their invulnerability falls off. God realms have been essentially removed from the world of conflict, when they were already a challenge to hunt considering the mobs had a good chance of clumping up and hitting like trucks, and then pursuing you should you try to get out of the deathroom. Defenders could attack while people and groups were trying to beat their way through a cluster, or gust/scissorflip people and easily cause chaos.
Another issue is the timing of this change, it wasn't necessary 12 months ago when one side was being raided around the clock, but it's necessary now when the other side is getting hit "Several times a week" (as opposed to several times a day) There's a running joke/source of rage about "Celest bias" that people like to constantly bring up, times where admin decisions have been made that only seemingly happen when it's of benefit to that one organisation. I think the last one happened regarding Avechna peacing and Ascension. While I don't want to play the conspiracy theory card, these situations constantly happen, and all it accomplishes is to feed the paranoia and further the unnecessary existence of bitterness and distrust of admin some players build up. Now while players shouldn't be distrusting of the admin's integrity, at the same time, situations like this shouldn't arise out of the blue where it's clear the benefits of a change were made because of that one organisation again.
As I said earlier, this wasn't necessary 12 months ago, we were encouraged to try harder, defend better, be tactical and think of ways we could fend off these endless raids, why is that same message not being said today? Celest isn't incapable of defending, it's part of an organisation and an alliance that has combatants, and I've seen these people around at all hours.
Why are we essentially turning places of conflict and war into glorified free influencing grounds where people can just grind 200+ mobs over and over again all day with little risk of being killed, because anyone entering has to pass a swarm of pursuing, high damage, invincible mobs? I understand Divines want to see their work appreciated by their Order. But a Divine has interaction with more than just their Order members, their Order members have more than just interaction with their Divine. This is a game where the story talks of conflict between the Divines, it's played out on a regular basis, and now we're going to take out a huge chunk of that conflict interaction because...?
Also for the record I'd like to say a Divine's order is not the only group of people who appreciate their realm, I've really enjoyed the descriptions and layouts of some of the ones I've raided, just because I'm hacking and slashing my way through creatures while I'm there doesn't mean I don't appreciate the thought and work gone into it any less. I firmly agree with the idea that to remove it from being "just a bashing ground" the gold cost can be toned down, so can the essence/xp value infact. But don't remove the option of conflict that's a core part of the story, I can't claim to read minds or understand thought processes, but if I was a Divine that had incurred the wrath of people so much that they took the time to go against my work and smash it up, I wouldn't be wanting to remove that option of conflict, I'd be looking for ways to better defend my realm ICly. Whether it's encouraging my followers and their allies, or finding ways to slow down and hinder the pace of any assault, not to find a metagame solution that makes raiding impossible.
To close I'd just like to sum up my opinion. If #322 wasn't needed 12 months ago when this was a more frequent issue, it isn't needed now.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
They complain when the beings fall, the planes are camped, those gathering essence are hunted down, nightly kick-and-run raids destroy fledgling defenders, and all at the same time for a weeks on end. Because it quickly becomes no fun.
As a non-com, I would love to see some big raids again. The problem I see is what happens in all games like this--enough people get as powerful as possible, then want more. So the game creates things to make them even more powerful. And again, when enough people get that powerful, the game creates something to make them more powerful. Raids were curtailed because players are just too powerful now--meanwhile, new players are at a significant, significant disadvantage to be viable participants.
They still do. And charity influence doesn't make them scream loyalsays when I 'raid' them that way, heh. You don't have to be an order member to wheedle them. I'm pretty sure the Divine have control over the gold drops already, though. Some realms never have a single sovereign, even though others are loaded. I'm also pretty sure that the gold they have had absolutely nothing to do with this change.
100 could clear out all the Seren God realms for example, wouldn't cover half of Eventru's, not sure how big Morg's is these days either but that's had quite the expansion.
Also it'd have to not count invasion shrine mobs as loyals.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
If this was going to encourage Gods to design bigger realms without getting the door kicked in every day, aren't we essentially ending up with giant influence arenas with a ton of free esteem? The mobs giving very good rewards for extremely little risk (seriously you try killing someone who's running through a ton of unkillable tracking murdermobs)
I mean if that's an intended effect that you want then sure, but it seems to really skew the whole risk/reward and benefit those who just happened to pick the right Divine (not to mention some people will cherry pick Divines based on who has the biggest godrealm so they can get more benefit without actually looking at it from an IC PoV)
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Secondly: Empowered mobs do not aggress on room entry. If you attack them or non empowered mobs in the room then you're asking for it and they'll proceed as normal.
Finally: You can weaken empowered mobs to strip their invulnerability, they will vanish for a set time (1-2 hours) so you can't just weaken/immediately attack. When they return they will be standard order realm mobs that can be re-empowered by Order members or killed and respawn in x hours as automatically empowered.
So what does this actually accomplish? Well for one, it doesn't turn Godrealms into giant overprotected carebear areas off prime, and still let's them be a source of conflict, however those wanting to raid cannot simply do so every respawn clear and have to weaken and wait before they can assault. So there's still a viable means of raiding, but at the same time there's options for the order members to defend by simply maintaining the realm's denizens by ensuring they remain empowered (which rewards itself really with essence/xp and esteem) with a risk that they might be attacked.
Should there be a dead order, well the mobs will remain empowered for 8 hours after any raid so they can't be gibbed again.
Also means that if a Divine does expand their realm of influence, everyone gets to appreciate their design work, without having to do a Benny Hill with three figures' worth of angry mobs chasing them.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Begging in other god's realms > begging from anything and everything else in the game, period.
tl;dr - Remove/lower gold and xp benefits so the realms are less an awesome bashing ground and more an area for inter-order conflict.