It's also a roleplaying game. Outside of mechanical reasons like "he stole a bunch of our resources", things like "Defiled the forest, attacked us with our own totems, and spat on their oaths and heritage" pretty much make you a sworn blood enemy.... now and forever. You technically can get back in, but it's not going to happen, not for a LOOOOOOOONG time.
So what you're saying is that if I decide to suddenly hop to Paladins, you won't have anything against that?
That's right. Get unenemied to the guilds and orders of Celest and welcome. It's not my decision to make, however, so others may have a different opinion, particularly those who DO make the decision.
And Synkarin, I'm aware that guilds generally enemy you and go after you for keeping their skills. That's on a whole different level than barring someone from entering an org rl years later, though.
So what you're saying is that if I decide to suddenly hop to Paladins, you won't have anything against that?
That's right. Get unenemied to the guilds and orders of Celest and welcome. It's not my decision to make, however, so others may have a different opinion, particularly those who DO make the decision.
And Synkarin, I'm aware that guilds generally enemy you and go after you for keeping their skills. That's on a whole different level than barring someone from entering an org rl years later, though.
It may not bar you, but it certainly plays into the picture no? Barring someone from joining depends entirely on that person and what they have done specifically. It could definitely be one of the reasons that prevent you from joining, among others.
It's also a roleplaying game. Outside of
mechanical reasons like "he stole a bunch of our resources", things like
"Defiled the forest, attacked us with our own totems, and spat on their
oaths and heritage" pretty much make you a sworn blood enemy.... now
and forever. You technically can get back in, but it's not going to
happen, not for a LOOOOOOOONG time.
There is simply no consistency in these things, though. People switch
from one org to an enemy org pretty often, even combatants/raiders. It
depends completely on who makes the decisions, and some people seem to
believe they or their clique in high offices own the org. It had been a
good 100 ig years that I had left Glomdoring, more than 3 rl years. I
don't remember how long the alliance with Celest had lasted when I tried
to join, but I think it was at least 1 rl year, too.
Eh, while it is certainly true that stealing stuff is a good way to get perma-enemied and rejected, other things can most certainly play into it. Things like stealing guild skills, and using them for a long time after leaving (especially if you're using it against said org), being a general nuisance to that org, being known as someone who hops around a bunch and plenty of other things can all lead up to being denied when trying to join again.
If you just ask out of the blue 'hey I want to join' without any real effort to try and prove loyalty etc, you shouldn't really be surprised when you are shot down.
Using skills gets you perma-banned? I mean, seriously? Being a 'nuisance' to an org you're at war with? And what are those 'plenty of other things'?
If I recall, you were once a part of Glomdoring as a Harbinger. You quit and used Harbinger abilities against Glomdoring. Yes, that's a pretty strong reason to keep you from joining and denying your entrance.
There's also the matter of attitude. Players are way more likely to raise objections to others joining their org if the person asking is rude, belligerent, annoying or impatient. When I was in charge of enemy statuses in another IRE game, I made a point of increasing fines against characters that were any of the above, either when they first got enemied, or when they asked to be unenemied. If they were particularly bad, I'd add them to the list of characters that required either a unanimous council or majority orgwide vote to join.
Basically, players don't want to have to interact with unpleasant people; joining an org is much easier if you're pleasant about it.
So far people in Glomdoring have been not only surprisingly polite, but professional as well. The hard part was finding people to ask to start with. But that's been righted!
Honestly from experience in Lusternia versus other games Lusternia is actually way more open to adjustments than other IRE games. So, I stand corrected! I know there's another IRE game I played a while back where one of my characters got enemied (for a good reason) but literally 5 REAL LIFE years later when I tried to sort out the enemy status for the third time, I was still denied. I'm all for punishing people who deserve to be enemied via fines and maybe even doing a probationary period and all that, but if several real life years have passed and there haven't been repeat offenses, let it go. I think people forget that it's a game and keeping someone enemied just because you're on a holier than thou ego trip and "can" isn't okay.
But, as usual, Lusternia's pretty decent in regards to giving people a chance to change where they plant their feet.
I understand what Veyrzhul's saying and I believe there comes a point when OOC feelings influence these sorts of decisions. Blah1 is going to be more likely to unenemy/citizen blah2 if they share an ooc clan together and are just general friends. Where as Blah1 would look at Blah3 and turn up their nose. Most of the time the line between OOC and IC is ridiculously blurred in these sorts of things. Nobody can deny it.
Also, I would like to point out that nobody has any concept of 'time' in Lusternia. If you put your boot up Blah1's buttocks 5 irl years ago, which is a very long time IC, you just did it yesterday and they've got 20 people who were there to confirm that you were there doing the booting.
"But paradise is locked and bolted...
We must make a journey around the world
to see if a back door has perhaps been left open."
Most of the time the line between OOC and IC is ridiculously blurred in these sorts of things. Nobody can deny it.
It's also totally unavoidable, and I'm don't really have a problem with that, at least as far as org membership goes. Players don't want to interact with people they find unpleasant and conversely, want to interact with those they do find pleasant. A two players who share a pleasant relationship over an OOC clan is inevitably going to result in the characters liking each other more (even if that may be on a 'love to hate' basis). Ultimately, Lusternia is a game, meant to be fun, and interacting with unpleasant or annoying players or characters diminishes that fun; something that most players want to avoid, even if it means some mild intrusion of OOC information or interactions.
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
I guess I went about explaining it the wrong way. It seems like the Serenguard enemy status tends to be a female dog to take care of, at least what I've heard from anyone who's tried to tangle with it... completing quests, waiting an arbitrary amount of time (someone mentioned 2 IG years) and so on and so forth. While they are free to decide their own policies, not a whole lot of people would agree to sit around for 24 days with nothing to do in game because they quit their previous guild and so on.
Enemy status is almost always taken care of with a fine and/or a task. Some harder tasks are usually added when the person has done something exceptionally harmful to the Serenwilde or Serenguard, and the hardest tasks and longest waits are given to those who betrayed the Serenguard. They don't take betrayal very well and don't forget it very easily.
This is somewhat balanced out by the fact that, at least when I ran things not too long ago, enemy status wasn't given out preemptively or for silly reasons--not too many people would get enemied to the Serenguard. You had to actually earn that status.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
I guess I went about explaining it the wrong way. It seems like the Serenguard enemy status tends to be a female dog to take care of, at least what I've heard from anyone who's tried to tangle with it... completing quests, waiting an arbitrary amount of time (someone mentioned 2 IG years) and so on and so forth. While they are free to decide their own policies, not a whole lot of people would agree to sit around for 24 days with nothing to do in game because they quit their previous guild and so on.
Enemy status is almost always taken care of with a fine and/or a task. Some harder tasks are usually added when the person has done something exceptionally harmful to the Serenwilde or Serenguard, and the hardest tasks and longest waits are given to those who betrayed the Serenguard. They don't take betrayal very well and don't forget it very easily.
This is somewhat balanced out by the fact that, at least when I ran things not too long ago, enemy status wasn't given out preemptively or for silly reasons--not too many people would get enemied to the Serenguard. You had to actually earn that status.
Uh, it's given out for hunting centaurs. You know, easy little things that lowbies can murder and sell for gold.
It's really not that hard to 'earn' it, which rather degrades the notion that you had to work for that enemy status.
Unlike Ebonguard status which you pretty much only get for attacking our guildhall. Now that one you do really have to work for!
One thing I like about the Serenguard that was especially true during the time when I first joined is that we always placed a certain amount of meaning upon things. Quite simply, I feel like simple gold fines don't have any meaning nowadays (if they ever did at all). Someone could easily harm your org for years on end and suddenly have a change of heart and everything is forgiven by paying a meaningless currency that is of no use to either of us? Please. When I started assigning long time enemies to do the Hifarae quest, I never thought I'd get so many complaints about it. I gave it to one person who was previously a Serenguard and they completed it in under half an hour. I will admit that making them wait a long period of time after that was probably too much and I've cut it down, but there have been people in the past who have been incredibly...unpredictable for lack of a better word, and the probationary period felt apt to all of us. Nowadays I don't even assign the Hifarae quest unless a person's crimes fit some criteria.
And to be realistic, there's people who will probably never get into the Serenguard again ever. I'm not sure why this notion seems so ridiculous. You make a blood oath, you break it and become one of our prime enemies, I don't see why we will suddenly be ready to take you at your word again.
Sometimes actions should have consequences and people need to get over that. There is a place for redemption, perhaps, but it isn't solved by giving a small portion of your large hoard of unused gold.
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Uh, it's given out for hunting centaurs. You know, easy little things that lowbies can murder and sell for gold.
The Serenguard make it clear that the centaur of Hifarae are under their protection. If they aren't warning lowbies not to kill the centaurs, that's something to look into. But whenever I catch a lowbie farming centaurs, I warn them first and tell them to hunt something else. If they persist, they get enemied.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Uh, it's given out for hunting centaurs. You know, easy little things that lowbies can murder and sell for gold.
The Serenguard make it clear that the centaur of Hifarae are under their protection. If they aren't warning lowbies not to kill the centaurs, that's something to look into. But whenever I catch a lowbie farming centaurs, I warn them first and tell them to hunt something else. If they persist, they get enemied.
Sure, and that's fine- my point is that that's hardly "earning" it though (at least in the sense that you have to go out of your way to do something difficult). Pretty much any player in the game can get it simply by wandering into Hifarae and getting caught hitting a centaur.
Also, I'm not disparaging the fact that you all don't enemy willy nilly. I do definitely approve of it, I'm just taking exception to the word choice I suppose.
<P>I'd love to be able to have something visible in the world that I can point people to for membership applications. Need to look at the Halls of Justice or whatever they're called. Hmm. It's on my list of things to do.</P> <P>Glomdoring's application process is very straight-forward, and I maintain our project on applications as often as I log in (which anyone in the commune can read): </P> <UL> <LI>If you're a newbie or can join through Brennan, go for it. If you're young and we haven't heard your name for dubious reasons, you'll be let in.</LI> <LI>If you haven't been an enemy in the last 10 IC years, you need three sponsors. Court, Guild, Commune reps. That takes time off me interviewing everyone and makes sure other people get to meet you and are involved in the process. Then when I have three messages saying "<EM>I am sponsoring Blah</EM>", I take it to the Court properly, we decide quickly, bam -- in or out. Induction done. <EM>Woo</EM>.</LI> <LI>If you have been an enemy in the last 10 IC years, you need four sponsors. As above, just one extra Court rep.</LI></UL> <P>This process can take a few minutes, or a couple of days -- it hinges on the person wanting to join and how responsive / proactive / resourceful they want to be.</P> <P>I never say <EM>'no and you have no hope of ever joining</EM>'; that would have been my predecessor, and I've been Ambassador since May 2012 -- I'm not sure where that viewpoint has come from. We have a good system.</P> <P>Having players be in control of who joins their player-controlled org is important. If people are being unreasonable and OOC, that's an OOC problem where issues should be involved. If everyone is roleplaying properly, then there are <EM>always</EM> avenues people can take.</P>
I've been outright denied joining Glomdoring last year, and I heard that Malarious was denied joining Celest fairly recently, too (before the alliance split up). Requirements for entry are fine, but I think that there is generally little justification to prevent people completely from joining an org.
To comment on this, Malarious got denied because he killed a Celest citizen in the Undervault for hunting illithoids while he was waiting to get unenemied to the paladins. Or something along those lines. I forget the details exactly, but it was definitely one of those "this would get you kicked out of Celest if you were a citizen" kind of offenses.
Most of the time the line between OOC and IC is ridiculously blurred in these sorts of things. Nobody can deny it.
It's also totally unavoidable, and I'm don't really have a problem with that, at least as far as org membership goes. Players don't want to interact with people they find unpleasant and conversely, want to interact with those they do find pleasant. A two players who share a pleasant relationship over an OOC clan is inevitably going to result in the characters liking each other more (even if that may be on a 'love to hate' basis). Ultimately, Lusternia is a game, meant to be fun, and interacting with unpleasant or annoying players or characters diminishes that fun; something that most players want to avoid, even if it means some mild intrusion of OOC information or interactions.
So you'd keep everyone out of your org that you 'find unpleasant' and don't like interacting with? I think that's a horrible criterium. I mean, I can understand the notion, but we're talking about orgs here that the game has SIX of and that are vital to the playing experience. If you don't want to interact with someone, then simply don't, it really has little to do with org membership.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I think the claim that people are absolutely unable to separate character feelings from their own is a cop out, and more a reason to blame others for your personal instances of frustration rather than accept that maybe you did something to earn the dislike. Just because the boundary can be blurred doesn't mean that is the rule, or even representative of the majority.
Veyrzhul was probably banned from Glom (I don't know, I never heard about it IC or OOC oddly enough) because Glom don't trust him to behave. Veyrzhul is kind of one of these people that seems to play by his own rules, and it's not the first time Glom has said no to a person they didn't think they could keep a leash on. I think Malarious scraped by by the skin of his teeth over the same issues. Other people have been outright denied because of it. There are just different standards for allowing a younger or newer player in than one that has been around for 150 years and has a reputation. Yes it's a game, but it's a roleplaying game, so you have to try a bit harder than "I am bored, I want to play with your skills. Let me in, f'ai glomdoring."
At the end of the day you kind of have to accept that reputations don't spawn from holes in the ground and haunt your irrationally and unfairly (most of the time). I say this as someone who has one and is most likely banned forever and ever from several orgs (I've never asked but I can assume Seren will refuse to snuggle with me). You probably did something at some point to earn it. Barring something heinous like guild theft or 150 years of constant griefing (sorry Seren), you can probably work through it. Just don't expect characters to say "Oh, it's just a game. Sure!"
And stop blaming others because you didn't get your way.
I think what he means is more along the lines of this scenario (similar things have happened to our ambassadors):
Random Enemy tells you: Induct me to your org, now. I want to be a member.
Ambassador/Aide: Who are you, and why are you demanding things of me?
Random Enemy: Listen to your superior (me), and induct me immediately.
Ambassador: Er. No. This is how you would go about joining, but anyone can voice an objection, and I'm objecting because you're being a git. Take it up with council if you want them to overturn it, it's not likely if you're as snarky to them. Buh-bye.
In other words, if you're being an ass about joining, or causing trouble... it's a pretty good sign that as a member you're going to be an ass and will cause trouble, and it's well within sense to limit the number of people who are asses and who cause trouble in your org, if you can.
For someone new-ish or really anyone who isn't a known trouble maker or of questionable character the process to join Magnagora goes like this.
Tell someone in Mag that you want to join
That person will ask a few questions and assuming there are no glaring problems
Then they will announce over the city aether if anyone objects to you joining
If there are no objections, then you join
The whole process takes about 3 minutes.
No sponsors, no essays, no waiting periods, no drama.
If anyone objects then the council and ambassador get involved and it could take a couple days to hear back from everyone.
It turns out the taint can transform even the most degenerate individuals into upstanding citizens or at the very least meat shields, or in some cases just meat. /forumrp
Comments
That's right. Get unenemied to the guilds and orders of Celest and welcome. It's not my decision to make, however, so others may have a different opinion, particularly those who DO make the decision.
And Synkarin, I'm aware that guilds generally enemy you and go after you for keeping their skills. That's on a whole different level than barring someone from entering an org rl years later, though.
There is simply no consistency in these things, though. People switch from one org to an enemy org pretty often, even combatants/raiders. It depends completely on who makes the decisions, and some people seem to believe they or their clique in high offices own the org. It had been a good 100 ig years that I had left Glomdoring, more than 3 rl years. I don't remember how long the alliance with Celest had lasted when I tried to join, but I think it was at least 1 rl year, too.
Basically, players don't want to have to interact with unpleasant people; joining an org is much easier if you're pleasant about it.
Honestly from experience in Lusternia versus other games Lusternia is actually way more open to adjustments than other IRE games. So, I stand corrected! I know there's another IRE game I played a while back where one of my characters got enemied (for a good reason) but literally 5 REAL LIFE years later when I tried to sort out the enemy status for the third time, I was still denied. I'm all for punishing people who deserve to be enemied via fines and maybe even doing a probationary period and all that, but if several real life years have passed and there haven't been repeat offenses, let it go. I think people forget that it's a game and keeping someone enemied just because you're on a holier than thou ego trip and "can" isn't okay.
But, as usual, Lusternia's pretty decent in regards to giving people a chance to change where they plant their feet.
I understand what Veyrzhul's saying and I believe there comes a point when OOC feelings influence these sorts of decisions. Blah1 is going to be more likely to unenemy/citizen blah2 if they share an ooc clan together and are just general friends. Where as Blah1 would look at Blah3 and turn up their nose. Most of the time the line between OOC and IC is ridiculously blurred in these sorts of things. Nobody can deny it.
Also, I would like to point out that nobody has any concept of 'time' in Lusternia. If you put your boot up Blah1's buttocks 5 irl years ago, which is a very long time IC, you just did it yesterday and they've got 20 people who were there to confirm that you were there doing the booting.
"But paradise is locked and bolted...
We must make a journey around the world
to see if a back door has perhaps been left open."
-Heinrich Von Kleist, "On the Puppet Theater"
This is somewhat balanced out by the fact that, at least when I ran things not too long ago, enemy status wasn't given out preemptively or for silly reasons--not too many people would get enemied to the Serenguard. You had to actually earn that status.
It's really not that hard to 'earn' it, which rather degrades the notion that you had to work for that enemy status.
Unlike Ebonguard status which you pretty much only get for attacking our guildhall. Now that one you do really have to work for!
Also, I'm not disparaging the fact that you all don't enemy willy nilly. I do definitely approve of it, I'm just taking exception to the word choice I suppose.
<P>Glomdoring's application process is very straight-forward, and I maintain our project on applications as often as I log in (which anyone in the commune can read): </P>
<UL>
<LI>If you're a newbie or can join through Brennan, go for it. If you're young and we haven't heard your name for dubious reasons, you'll be let in.</LI>
<LI>If you haven't been an enemy in the last 10 IC years, you need three sponsors. Court, Guild, Commune reps. That takes time off me interviewing everyone and makes sure other people get to meet you and are involved in the process. Then when I have three messages saying "<EM>I am sponsoring Blah</EM>", I take it to the Court properly, we decide quickly, bam -- in or out. Induction done. <EM>Woo</EM>.</LI>
<LI>If you have been an enemy in the last 10 IC years, you need four sponsors. As above, just one extra Court rep.</LI></UL>
<P>This process can take a few minutes, or a couple of days -- it hinges on the person wanting to join and how responsive / proactive / resourceful they want to be.</P>
<P>I never say <EM>'no and you have no hope of ever joining</EM>'; that would have been my predecessor, and I've been Ambassador since May 2012 -- I'm not sure where that viewpoint has come from. We have a good system.</P>
<P>Having players be in control of who joins their player-controlled org is important. If people are being unreasonable and OOC, that's an OOC problem where issues should be involved. If everyone is roleplaying properly, then there are <EM>always</EM> avenues people can take.</P>
In other words, if you're being an ass about joining, or causing trouble... it's a pretty good sign that as a member you're going to be an ass and will cause trouble, and it's well within sense to limit the number of people who are asses and who cause trouble in your org, if you can.