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Org Mobs

SulaeiSulaei
in Common Grounds
So I've been talking to a couple people lately and there seems to be a common thread of frustration when it comes to Lusternia's organizations and the hundred hoops one has to jump through to join them. While I wholeheartedly promote roleplay (and wish more people would stick to RP rather than OOC but that's another rant in and of itself), I think it dissuades people from enjoying what Lusternia has to offer when they're made to put their right foot in, put their right foot out, put their right foot in, and shake it all about... all before being able to join. And heaven forbid someone doesn't like them because of their blue hair, or their gender, or their last name, or their friend whose friend's girlfriend doesn't like them. You get the point I think...

So here's the thing, Lusternia is equipped with coded guild and city/commune mobs that are there to welcome people into various organizations. These obviously weren't just put their for novices, or they'd be coded only to allow players with oh... under 50 hours of playing time in or some such. However, joining through one as even a slightly established character is highly frowned upon usually, and sometimes even met with being kicked back out of the organization until you get sponsors. Now, there are a lot of people like myself who attempt to do things the "politically correct" way when looking to switch organizations, but being given the run around is fairly obnoxious.

My two cents, if you aren't an enemy, you've never done anything against that organization, and you're just trying to find your niche, there should be no reason to have to get 100 signatures while hopping up and down on one foot and rubbing your belly while patting your head (exaggeration I know) just to get in.

I feel like Lusternia's playerbase has become a little too set in the older player's ways and has maybe forgotten that variety is the spice of life, and sometimes change is good. If someone wants to come to your organization, it should be considered flattery, not a threat. I mean hey, they're looking to give you numbers.

So basically, if the in game coded mobiles are more or less a moot point, why even have them? Why not just take them out entirely. Either that, or maybe people need a little reminder that if someone can walk up to said NPC and request to join the organization(s) and get in, the players should really be that relaxed as well.

Food for thought. In game politics tend to go a little overboard sometimes.
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Comments

  • AstraeaAstraea
    To be honest with you, speaking for Glomdoring, it is insanely easy to get in.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    I'm just going to throw this out there.



    There are some people who, in Lusternia, build up a reputation. Sometimes it's that they are annoying, or just stand around and snuggle, or whine constantly. Generally speaking, some orgs may not want specific people in their org because of things like this, and it's put to a vote, or put upon the ambassador to citizen those people and make sure it's worth letting that  person join the org. As a newbie, you should be allowed to move orgs as you please, within reason. After level 50 when you've basically become established (can't change your name, and so on), you should at least rp out having a reason to move orgs, not just "I'm bored, let's try this out."
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • AlacardaelAlacardael
    I think that's because Glomdoring usually has active players who can be sponsors for aspiring members. For organizations who do not have the same activity level, though, it can be difficult to get sponsors, or even just find a willing aide who can process your application.
    If it's broken, break it some more.
  • SulaeiSulaei
    It doesn't seem like it. Maybe I'm missing something.
  • SulaeiSulaei
    @Shaddus no one said anything about moving orgs out of boredom.

    Also, on the line of your comments, there's a gross overabundance of OOC/IC grey lines in Lusternia, where most of the "reputations" seem to spring from (ie - OOC clans). Regardless of "reputation", if someone isn't an enemy to a guild or city/commune there shouldn't be an issue with them joining. But even then, I wasn't talking about anyone with insane reputations either, I was more talking about the "general populace".

    And @Alacardael, I get that, but it still goes back to what's the point of even having mobs that were put there so people can join orgs? That was my main point. :P
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Glomdoring's general rule is: If you can join through the tutor, you don't need sponsors.  You're new enough and you're all set.

    If you can't join through the tutor, you need to talk with 3 people and then you're in, unless you're a known troublemaker in which case it gets more difficult.

    I don't really have an issue with that setup personally.  I think if you join via the NPC and get booted automatically, you could probably go to the Administration to ask about it.

    (AFAIK there is an hours-played limit on the org-induction NPCs, as well.  Or maybe a level limit.  There is some kind of limit at least!)
    image
  • SulaeiSulaei
    @xenthos Good to know! I was under the impression there wasn't any kind of limit at all, which well... goes back to making them a fairly moot point if one's made to jump through hoops regardless.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Sulaei said:
    @Shaddus no one said anything about moving orgs out of boredom.

    Also, on the line of your comments, there's a gross overabundance of OOC/IC grey lines in Lusternia, where most of the "reputations" seem to spring from (ie - OOC clans). Regardless of "reputation", if someone isn't an enemy to a guild or city/commune there shouldn't be an issue with them joining. But even then, I wasn't talking about anyone with insane reputations either, I was more talking about the "general populace".

    And @Alacardael, I get that, but it still goes back to what's the point of even having mobs that were put there so people can join orgs? That was my main point. :P
    That may be so, but how are you going to code in a way to let people into an org and make sure they aren't doing it out of boredom? 

    Basically what I'm saying is, what circumstances are you going to allow people in under? So long as they've never been enemied to that org before? Are you extending this to guilds and orders? Do the people in the orgs have a say in the matter?


    If person Melchizek (not a real player) has a habit of shouting randomly at people, snuggling in the Aetherplex, using retarded illusions, and basically not being someone you want in your city or forest, there should certainly be a way to keep them from just joining, and not by enemying them. I like the way we handle it now, and if ambassadors need to have more aides to assist in helping people join an org, I'm all for that.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • DaedalionDaedalion
    The induction npcs are there to make it easier for newer players. They arn't meant for the 'general populace' and they shouldn't be. It's not paticularly hard to send tells or messages looking for sponsors and if you've really done nothing wrong then it should be easy. Though if we're talking about Glomdoring, getting them to actually reply back is a different story.

    "But paradise is locked and bolted...

    We must make a journey around the world

    to see if a back door has perhaps been left open."

    -Heinrich Von Kleist, "On the Puppet Theater"

  • ZvoltzZvoltz

    Xenthos said:
    Glomdoring's general rule is: If you can join through the tutor, you don't need sponsors.  You're new enough and you're all set.

    If you can't join through the tutor, you need to talk with 3 people and then you're in, unless you're a known troublemaker in which case it gets more difficult.

    I don't really have an issue with that setup personally.  I think if you join via the NPC and get booted automatically, you could probably go to the Administration to ask about it.

    (AFAIK there is an hours-played limit on the org-induction NPCs, as well.  Or maybe a level limit.  There is some kind of limit at least!)
    I think there is a level limit (below 50?) and not being a member of the org previously to use the NPCs. If I recall correctly, the NPCs were put there for new players to join organizations with low membership or newbies who play off hours when there is no one around to induct them.

  • SulaeiSulaei
    This is where you need that artifact that lets you see who's on other planes. :P
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    Messages ftw :)

    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    Daedalion said:
    The induction npcs are there to make it easier for newer players. They arn't meant for the 'general populace' and they shouldn't be. It's not paticularly hard to send tells or messages looking for sponsors and if you've really done nothing wrong then it should be easy. Though if we're talking about Glomdoring, getting them to actually reply back is a different story.
    I usually tend to respond as soon as I can. While I agree that some of Glomdoring are less-than-nice when it comes to responding, perhaps you're not poking at the right person.
    image

    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • LeradLerad
    Yeah, org mobs have always limited auto-joining by levels. If the argument to make hoop jumping easier is based on the premise that they don't, then unfortunately the argument doesn't really work.

    Newbies aside, for the actual requierments for jumping through hoops, I see no reason people should be able to join an org with impunity, with minimal interaction. I personally see Glomdoring's requirements as an invitation for RP. If you want to join, find and talk to three people ICly. As a person who has sponsored, I personally use the chance as a way of introducing Glomdoring to them. I don't term it that way ICly, of course, but OOCly, I pretty much assume anyone going through the sponsoring track is going to be accepted.

    Is this really too much to ask? Does requiring a bit of proof that a person can RP "dissuade them from enjoying what Lusternia has to offer"? No, I don't see any reason for this to change.

    Additional requirements, like offering to patrons, paying fines, wait periods, are all also acceptable in my opinion, as long as there is a reason for it. If you're an established combatant who has raided against an org, and tomorrow you want to join that org, you can very well expect to jump through rings of fire and swim with the sharks. I wouldn't have it any other way. Reputation problems Shaddus mentions falls into this category too. Your character is how he acts. If your character is well known for being a jerk, you can be sure to expect jerk treatment right back. I have zero sympathy for those players who act like the game belongs to them, then complains about the same being done to them. I don't want to be with them in a game I play, much less in an org I am part of.

    The only problems that arise is when the requirements are unduly harsh or tedious, and for no actual reason. That's certainly when the admin should step in. I agree, definitely that these practices should be curbed. It makes no sense, however, if this thread is just criticising org joining requirements in general, because in general they are fine. Sulaei, if you have a specific case, a specific org you feel is problematic, give us the example. Post your complaints. If they are valid, surely we will support it. A general "org requirements are bad, wah!" is just not going to cut it, however. Where exactly are these unreasonable requirements being imposed?

  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    I know I probably complained somewhere when I was given the reqs to get unenemied to Glom... but looking back at it, it wasn't really all that bad in the end. IC-ly... sure, Elanorwen taking three deaths for the team wasn't incredibly exciting, but she did it. Most of the time I hear people complaining about rejoining an org, I hear Serenwilde being mentioned... especially considering their arbitrary "wait x amount of years" thing and the fact that it usually seems to come from guilds that enemy sometimes for the most entertaining of reasons. Take an example from the Ebonguard where attacking a member doesn't actually constitute as an enemying offense.
    image

    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    edited April 2013
    Serenwilde doesn't require anyone to wait as a standard matter of course for joining, it's not part of any policies on the books. If a particular guild won't unenemy you for a certain period, that's between you and them!

    We run things in almost exactly the same was as Glom, from what I've read in this thread. Gather three sponsors, read the Leaves and you're in, assuming no one brings up any issues. We just specify that you need to plan on joining a guild, and should talk to one of their elected leaders as one of your sponsors (this also makes it clear you can just talk to three random people, at least one is likely to be of decent repute).
  • VeyrzhulVeyrzhul
    I've been outright denied joining Glomdoring last year, and I heard that Malarious was denied joining Celest fairly recently, too (before the alliance split up). Requirements for entry are fine, but I think that there is generally little justification to prevent people completely from joining an org.
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    Veyrzhul said:
    I've been outright denied joining Glomdoring last year, and I heard that Malarious was denied joining Celest fairly recently, too (before the alliance split up). Requirements for entry are fine, but I think that there is generally little justification to prevent people completely from joining an org.

    I disagree, I think people can earn this kind of rejection based on their past history. You should have good reasons I think, but it's not really that unheard of.

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    I disagree @Veyrzhul. We have a few people on our 'no-fly' list, for good reason. Generally, if one of them slips through the cracks and gets in anyways (it's happened a few times), somewhere down the line it causes huge headaches and everyone wishes the list had been checked. There are some people who just aren't getting into Serenwilde without an event intervening to change our minds, and that's probably for the best.

    I agree with @Lerad on this, I don't really see the need to make this more automated and simple than it already is.  If you can't handle dealing with one or two org representatives in a decent and convincing manner, you aren't likely to thrive in whatever org you're trying to get into. Most of the orgs (afaik) run something similar to the 'three sponsors' procedure, and it's really easy to find three people of the org who will sponsor you without a second thought (without even really requiring that you RP at them), and real objections are very rare. And unlike guild advancement and guild joining, it's pretty easy to handle most of the business of joining a new org via message or letter!
  • EventruEventru
    I don't believe there is any org any character can't join - it may, though, take a lot more roleplay for some than others. Particularly those with history. And of course, there's the given exceptions (ie Xenthos would need to go a long way to join Serenwilde, or Daevos Celest, Xena Magnagora, so forth and so on).

    Nature of a roleplaying game! 
  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    Enyalida said:
    Serenwilde doesn't require anyone to wait as a standard matter of course for joining, it's not part of any policies on the books. If a particular guild won't unenemy you for a certain period, that's between you and them!

    We run things in almost exactly the same was as Glom, from what I've read in this thread. Gather three sponsors, read the Leaves and you're in, assuming no one brings up any issues. We just specify that you need to plan on joining a guild, and should talk to one of their elected leaders as one of your sponsors (this also makes it clear you can just talk to three random people, at least one is likely to be of decent repute).
    I guess I went about explaining it the wrong way. It seems like the Serenguard enemy status tends to be a female dog to take care of, at least what I've heard from anyone who's tried to tangle with it... completing quests, waiting an arbitrary amount of time (someone mentioned 2 IG years) and so on and so forth. While they are free to decide their own policies, not a whole lot of people would agree to sit around for 24 days with nothing to do in game because they quit their previous guild and so on.
    image

    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • EritheylEritheyl ** Trigger Warning **
    Elanorwen said:
    While they are free to decide their own policies, not a whole lot of people would agree to sit around for 24 days with nothing to do in game because they quit their previous guild and so on.
    They should look into these things before they quit! Make good decisions.
    Crumkane, Lord of Epicurean Delights says, "WAS IT INDEED ON FIRE, ERITHEYL."

    -

    With a deep reverb, Contemptible Sutekh says, "CEASE YOUR INFERNAL ENERGY, ERITHEYL."
  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    Eritheyl said:
    Elanorwen said:
    While they are free to decide their own policies, not a whole lot of people would agree to sit around for 24 days with nothing to do in game because they quit their previous guild and so on.
    They should look into these things before they quit! Make good decisions.
    Actually, if memory serves, the person in question was lead to believe they'd be unenemied once they completed their quest... then someone went... "Oh, and... you get to wait 2 years, too."
    image

    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • VeyrzhulVeyrzhul
    The only good reason I've heard so far was someone running away with guild/org credits/money, and even that is (also depending on the amounts) something that can be forgiven after a while. People do deserve second chances. 'Headaches' can stem from a good many things, so it would be interesting what the specific issues were.
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    Eh, while it is certainly true that stealing stuff is a good way to get perma-enemied and rejected, other things can most certainly play into it. Things like stealing guild skills, and using them for a long time after leaving (especially if you're using it against said org), being a general nuisance to that org, being known as someone who hops around a bunch and plenty of other things can all lead up to being denied when trying to join again. 

    If you just ask out of the blue 'hey I want to join' without any real effort to try and prove loyalty etc, you shouldn't really be surprised when you are shot down.

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    I don't believe there is any org any character can't join - it may, though, take a lot more roleplay for some than others. Particularly those with history. And of course, there's the given exceptions (ie Xenthos would need to go a long way to join Serenwilde, or Daevos Celest, Xena Magnagora, so forth and so on).






    You remember that when Shaddus wants to come influence your priestesses, sir.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • VeyrzhulVeyrzhul
    Eventru said:
    I don't believe there is any org any character can't join - it may, though, take a lot more roleplay for some than others. Particularly those with history. And of course, there's the given exceptions (ie Xenthos would need to go a long way to join Serenwilde, or Daevos Celest, Xena Magnagora, so forth and so on).

    Nature of a roleplaying game! 
    When I was asking to join Glomdoring, Celest and Glomdoring had been allies for quite a while, and I had been unenemied to all the guilds and orders of Glomdoring. I was still told that I would not be allowed in due to my history with Glomdoring (no further elaboration) . I find players making such a decision highly problematic, but I know that others like being able to do that. I would never deny anyone entrance into Celest, for instance. It's a game!
  • VeyrzhulVeyrzhul
    Synkarin said:
    Eh, while it is certainly true that stealing stuff is a good way to get perma-enemied and rejected, other things can most certainly play into it. Things like stealing guild skills, and using them for a long time after leaving (especially if you're using it against said org), being a general nuisance to that org, being known as someone who hops around a bunch and plenty of other things can all lead up to being denied when trying to join again. 

    If you just ask out of the blue 'hey I want to join' without any real effort to try and prove loyalty etc, you shouldn't really be surprised when you are shot down.
    Using skills gets you perma-banned? I mean, seriously? Being a 'nuisance' to an org you're at war with? And what are those 'plenty of other things'?
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    are you being serious right now? Most guilds have a forgot or we're going to hunt you down policy, so keeping said skills and using them would increase negative feelings. I feel that's pretty straight forward. 

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    Veyrzhul said:
    Synkarin said:
    Eh, while it is certainly true that stealing stuff is a good way to get perma-enemied and rejected, other things can most certainly play into it. Things like stealing guild skills, and using them for a long time after leaving (especially if you're using it against said org), being a general nuisance to that org, being known as someone who hops around a bunch and plenty of other things can all lead up to being denied when trying to join again. 

    If you just ask out of the blue 'hey I want to join' without any real effort to try and prove loyalty etc, you shouldn't really be surprised when you are shot down.
    Using skills gets you perma-banned? I mean, seriously? Being a 'nuisance' to an org you're at war with? And what are those 'plenty of other things'?
    So what you're saying is that if I decide to suddenly hop to Paladins, you won't have anything against that?
    image

    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
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