Astrology spheres are already limited by being entirely unreliable in when they give good or bad effects. The amount of willpower/endurance they take to cast is also, if I'm not wrong, dependant on star movements. I daresay that this is pretty much a flavour and fluff aspect to the skill, and not really to "limit" casting spheres in any reasonable proportion of reward to cost. Removing it will do nothing bad add good to that already frustrating and tedious skillset.
Cutting it out halfway will create more headaches than going all the way. Don't pull out when you're halfway through. You're going to end up devaluing willpower/endurance artifacts ANYWAY if most of what is suggested in this thread goes through. And then you're going to have a seperate bunch of people asking FOR refunds anyway.
It's a big project, and whether you go the way of cutting it out entirely or doing what Rivius suggested and reworking it entirely to be an actual "strategy" (I myself remain unconvinced attrition is a strategy, but giving it a try is not a bad idea at least), plan to eventually go all the way with it. If it's going to be a half-implementation, then it's better to just not touch it (and just alleviate the problems for newbies)
You are not mistaken; that was a point I also was going to raise. The willpower cost for astrology is 'random' as well, so sometimes there is not much of a limiter and sometimes there is. It is just extra overhead.
I do also like the suggestion of employing Envoys to help generate a full list (much like the one I started, but adding in class-specific abilities) of areas impacted. It would at least help give a better grasp of the time and effort involved.
Aether-willpower staying is all right imo since it is a completely separate mechanic, but it could be replaced as well if desired.
Frankly, I'd personally love it to see endurance/willpower gone. However, there'd be a lot of work to fix it... Artifacts refunded, skills changed, balancing, etc. I'm just wondering if the benefits from the change outweigh the effort involved in it. How would Astrology be changed? Would two new modifiers come into effect for Sidiak and Tarox (the two planets that modify Willpower and Endurance)? Would the modifiers simply be removed from sphere-castings? How would Ironwill change? Athletics Breathe? Probably about a dozen more skills I can't think of right off the bat...
2
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I think it's a wonderful change. I think the "balancing" factors are being over exagerated a bit. I will explain:
Historically, combatants have generally denounce attrition style combat. Things like long term bleed drains, telepaths, and monk endurance drains are certainly viable tactics, but they are also the lowest common denominator for these classes. Meaning it's the last tactic any of them will employ because 1) it's slow and time consuming 2) it's unavoidable 3) uninteresting and 3) people will just not fight you if this is what you resort to. It generally means that the person using the tactic has failed at their other methods so they are just going to hit you until you can't cure or fight back. It's not a "strategy," as the word implies some sort of thought. It's just a button you mash when nothing else worked.
The tl;dr version is wp/endurance drain fights are really lame, and no one will miss them
Additionally, the wp drains and limitations really rarely apply to actual combat. The drains, in nearly every scenario I can come up with, only really have a noticable affect after several fights, be it group or solo. Things like metawake seem to have wp drains so you can't keep it up forever, which can be counter balanced by upping the mana drain a bit more so demi regen can't keep pace with it. It'll be case by case, and I don't see most skills really needing a counter balance to no longer having a willpower drain. Those that will, warrior regeneration and boosting comes to mind, can be balanced with a mana drain cost or time limitation/power cost. The envoys, naturally, can offer suggestions.
This will even help balance some of the more obnoxious aspects of willpower drains, like Astrology. The somewhat lacking tertiary will be able to meteor more than twice before they are spent and have to leave the fight.
I think people are generally going to flail a bit and go "OH NO, WHAT ABOUT X SKILL," but when you actually look at the skills, the wp drain is ultimately pointless. How limiting is the actual drain in real time combat that lasts a few minutes. So maybe they can't sit at the nexus forever with it up with the wp drain, and without wp drain they can. Is that really a balancing factor? I suspect not.
Really, I think wp/end is a unneeded mechanic that was put in place to limit certain skills to be used non stop. However, the drains tend to be so small that they only matter in the very long term. A couple exceptions like Astrology have such heavy drains that they become too restrictive. Just wiping it from the game would be fabulous, IMO.
My main issue with will/end is that certain abilities have too major a drain... think runes, tarot, astro, dreamweaving (although DW has a way to drain will, it is also one of the least viable ways to attack someone one-on-one). That said, I don't see it as too big a deal, I've only been attrition-killed twice and only on a character that I had no idea what I was doing in combat to begin with. It's quite likely the fight would have been much shorter if I had a better idea of how to do my offense and I've only been worried about my will once recently against a TP mage that kept sticking psyvamp and generally just running otherwise.
In my opinion, tactics like that need to be discouraged completely and thus I think they should go. In some cases, this might cause some balance issues... as mentioned, sleep-oriented classes might end up being more complicated, but I'm sure it can be worked around. It is what we have envoys for after all.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
@Rivius: I disagree because while you have long written out arguments, the question was not if it would be complicated/hard to remove them. The question was if we should.
Neither stat contributes in a very meaningful way, it has only really imposed limitations on the younger players.
I could probably find everything effected by this within 3 hours. Only a few skills use willpower/endurance as a cost, some affs target it, and a few artys. I do not think there is much else to worry about from it. Everything it effects can rather easily be changed.
I wanted to say thank you to the Admin for looking at this, it never occured to me, and it is a big undertaking, but this is an excellent step in the right direction for making things simpler.
TBH, I was under the impression that Iosai has a way to pull out everything that drains/restores endurance/willpower via voodoo magic, then we can look at each one's specific case.
Like for example, we can remove the endurance/willpower restore of maiden (?) and whatever that sacraments blessing is, etc.
Good catch on astrology spheres too. We just need to figure out a new effect for both of those spheres. Maybe something sweet like increased power regen rate because random is a legitimate balancing factor.
There is no sphere of willpower or endurance. I think he means those as costs to casting spheres (with papaxi some spheres could cost thousands of willpower).
Dreamweaving takes a stupid amount of willpower to use, and any extended fight can leave you drained from wp (by extended fight, I mean 10 minutes), and thats not even from being in Dreamform, but using things like motes/deepsleep.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
That's because everything that can be used in dreamform eats willpower as if you were in dreamform. Embed costs 300 willpower to put down a single mote while fuse (the same skill in runes) only costs 30. It's not something that really does anything to balance the skillset, it just makes it more frustrating to use.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Unlimited dreamform wouldn't even really be much of a bad (oooh, scary, they can 'spy' on you), and there are ways to handle that. Mana drain. Everything in dreambody needs mana, so that would be an effective limiter. You'd have to go around channeling people to get it back (like osmose and willpower now), or be stuck with no abilities (INCLUDING bodysnap).
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
You can be an endless PITA so no. It needs an actual limitation. Time limit would work. I'd prefer to not open the door for weavers to be floating around enemy orgs for as long as they please. Willpower drain was the limiter.
Generally a good project, but it's a lot of work, and I'm not sure it's worth it. I never felt troubled by the existence of endurance/willpower as a lowbie.
Tarot scribing got mentioned - this can do without a willpower cost as is, in my opinion. If there has to be a limitation to scribing, raise commodity requirements for cards/palettes a bit. Raising shrines - I personally think it is a good thing that you cannot raise another shrine right after raising one, but that can also be done via a cooldown (maybe add 20% or so reserve cost, so it's something you consider in a combat situation, as one would the willpower loss).
Replacing current willpower drains with increased mana drains will in many cases be rather more imbalancing. Even moreso for lowbies.
Be nice if a separate willpower/resource was created just for being in Dreamform only, to prevent Void spamming, but allow other options elsewhere, otherwise dreamweaving/dreamform just isn't very useful.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
I don't understand why we're creating new problems.
It would take a lot of work to remove will/end, then a lot more balancing the skills lost. My opinion? It's not broken, why are you removing it? It's inconvient for people, but it's not a make or breaker. The resources that would go to this project could be better spent on something else.
Cons? A ridiculous amount of work.
Pros? No more annoying attrition and person1 gets to bash fooooreverr.
Theory? Not worth the trouble.
"But paradise is locked and bolted...
We must make a journey around the world
to see if a back door has perhaps been left open."
Simpler solution: return kirigami to full will/end refresh, make them cost less to make and shorten the duration. Bam, no more running out of will/end while hunting.
Dropping willpower and endurance would be nice but not a big deal. I only encounter them when fighting things with heavy bleeding or when trying to meteor someone. Sometimes it's only possible to put spheres on someone twice, which is annoying, but that could be improved by changing the will/end cost from 450 per power below +1 (0 to 3600) to 200 (0 to 1600) or so, which is envoyable.
Fear of astrologer's ultimate cosmic power shouldn't be a reason for anything.
The resources that would go to this project could be better spent on something else
Like new minigames? Because I've always thought to myself "Self, I really wish I could play Go/Magic/Battleship/Chess while I was logged into a MUD. Like, I would sacrifice the neighbor's baby, his pet goat AND a Spiderman #1 signed by Stan Lee if that could happen". </sarcasm> Not to knock the work of the coders that implemented these things, which I assume were a sort of back burner style project, but you can point at those as wasting resources as well which makes that argument moot in my opinion.
In all seriousness, having looked at the abs from the Xiel site which I and should send them credits for doing or something, it looks like there's a number of afflictions that do have severe endurance/willpower drain that would have to looked at, adjusted and the like. So long as they're able to come up with something that is a suitable replacement, I can't see the harm in getting rid of the mechanics.
This is just spitballing, but if power is the big limiting factor once endurance/willpower is gone, perhaps those afflictions would hinder power regeneration/maximum power one's capable of having available to them. For instance, get a crushed chest, you regen power at half the rate, or you can only hold 7 instead of 10 until it's cured. I don't know how that would work if your power is at 10, you get crushed chest, and now you only have 7. Perhaps it goes into your reserves and then regens like normal once you're cured? Just flat out losing it would make monks handing those afflictions out like they're candy incredibly rage making. Come to think of it, it would also make some instas nearly impossible to pull off against someone that could whore those afflictions, so it might not be the best idea in the world.
I really don't think moving endurance/will drains to mana/power are awful ideas so long as you only apply them to skills that needed a drain to balance them out to begin with.
For the vast majority of defs, buffs, etc., simply removing the willpower/end drain is all that needed, nothing else. That's great.
I'm talking about skills like dreamweaving, sphere casting, ghost (?), and whatever else. Big name skills that are balanced by virtue of a limited duration due to willpower/endurance drain.
0
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
I think the concern is not so much with skills that cost willpower/endurance to use, but skills that drain them from opponents in order to win a fight. Doesn't sound like there are too many of them, but maybe enough to warrant a serious look.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Yeah, was strictly talking about skills/afflictions that cause increased will/end drain like crushed chest and the like. Not about powers that use large amounts of willpower/endurance.
I don't think the question is 'should we remove this tactic you don't like' but rather 'do you think it's worthwhile for us to remove Endurance and Willpower altogether'. That means it will no longer exist - not as a cost for skills, a 'balancing factor', a means of winning a match, etc.
It's important to remember the goal - make Lusternia simpler and easier to get into. Would removing Endurance/Willpower make the game simpler, and what are the pros and cons of it (months of rebalancing and dozens of cooldowns, limited uses, new mechanics to achieve the effect willpower has now, etc seem like they might fall under 'cons').
Comments
Cutting it out halfway will create more headaches than going all the way. Don't pull out when you're halfway through. You're going to end up devaluing willpower/endurance artifacts ANYWAY if most of what is suggested in this thread goes through. And then you're going to have a seperate bunch of people asking FOR refunds anyway.
It's a big project, and whether you go the way of cutting it out entirely or doing what Rivius suggested and reworking it entirely to be an actual "strategy" (I myself remain unconvinced attrition is a strategy, but giving it a try is not a bad idea at least), plan to eventually go all the way with it. If it's going to be a half-implementation, then it's better to just not touch it (and just alleviate the problems for newbies)
I think it's a wonderful change. I think the "balancing" factors are being over exagerated a bit. I will explain:
Historically, combatants have generally denounce attrition style combat. Things like long term bleed drains, telepaths, and monk endurance drains are certainly viable tactics, but they are also the lowest common denominator for these classes. Meaning it's the last tactic any of them will employ because 1) it's slow and time consuming 2) it's unavoidable 3) uninteresting and 3) people will just not fight you if this is what you resort to. It generally means that the person using the tactic has failed at their other methods so they are just going to hit you until you can't cure or fight back. It's not a "strategy," as the word implies some sort of thought. It's just a button you mash when nothing else worked.
The tl;dr version is wp/endurance drain fights are really lame, and no one will miss them
Additionally, the wp drains and limitations really rarely apply to actual combat. The drains, in nearly every scenario I can come up with, only really have a noticable affect after several fights, be it group or solo. Things like metawake seem to have wp drains so you can't keep it up forever, which can be counter balanced by upping the mana drain a bit more so demi regen can't keep pace with it. It'll be case by case, and I don't see most skills really needing a counter balance to no longer having a willpower drain. Those that will, warrior regeneration and boosting comes to mind, can be balanced with a mana drain cost or time limitation/power cost. The envoys, naturally, can offer suggestions.
This will even help balance some of the more obnoxious aspects of willpower drains, like Astrology. The somewhat lacking tertiary will be able to meteor more than twice before they are spent and have to leave the fight.
I think people are generally going to flail a bit and go "OH NO, WHAT ABOUT X SKILL," but when you actually look at the skills, the wp drain is ultimately pointless. How limiting is the actual drain in real time combat that lasts a few minutes. So maybe they can't sit at the nexus forever with it up with the wp drain, and without wp drain they can. Is that really a balancing factor? I suspect not.
Really, I think wp/end is a unneeded mechanic that was put in place to limit certain skills to be used non stop. However, the drains tend to be so small that they only matter in the very long term. A couple exceptions like Astrology have such heavy drains that they become too restrictive. Just wiping it from the game would be fabulous, IMO.
.
In my opinion, tactics like that need to be discouraged completely and thus I think they should go. In some cases, this might cause some balance issues... as mentioned, sleep-oriented classes might end up being more complicated, but I'm sure it can be worked around. It is what we have envoys for after all.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Neither stat contributes in a very meaningful way, it has only really imposed limitations on the younger players.
I could probably find everything effected by this within 3 hours. Only a few skills use willpower/endurance as a cost, some affs target it, and a few artys. I do not think there is much else to worry about from it. Everything it effects can rather easily be changed.
I wanted to say thank you to the Admin for looking at this, it never occured to me, and it is a big undertaking, but this is an excellent step in the right direction for making things simpler.
Or just delete them.
Unlimited motes = good
Tarot scribing got mentioned - this can do without a willpower cost as is, in my opinion. If there has to be a limitation to scribing, raise commodity requirements for cards/palettes a bit.
Raising shrines - I personally think it is a good thing that you cannot raise another shrine right after raising one, but that can also be done via a cooldown (maybe add 20% or so reserve cost, so it's something you consider in a combat situation, as one would the willpower loss).
Replacing current willpower drains with increased mana drains will in many cases be rather more imbalancing. Even moreso for lowbies.
I don't understand why we're creating new problems.
It would take a lot of work to remove will/end, then a lot more balancing the skills lost. My opinion? It's not broken, why are you removing it? It's inconvient for people, but it's not a make or breaker. The resources that would go to this project could be better spent on something else.
Cons? A ridiculous amount of work.
Pros? No more annoying attrition and person1 gets to bash fooooreverr.
Theory? Not worth the trouble.
"But paradise is locked and bolted...
We must make a journey around the world
to see if a back door has perhaps been left open."
-Heinrich Von Kleist, "On the Puppet Theater"
Fear of astrologer's ultimate cosmic power shouldn't be a reason for anything.