Endurance and Willpower

Estarra

I've debated removing endurance/willpower before (internally with admin), mostly because it's not used that much and would make understanding Lusternia simpler, though it would be a large project which I've been loathe to allocate resources towards. However, I understand that another IRE game has done that so thought to open up for discussion, the pros and cons.

Let us know what you think!

Eritheyl

Ah, I was just talking this over earlier! Mostly leaning towards how utterly fantastic it would be, if possible

/eternally bound to rocking chair

The pros are pretty obvious. No more needing to wait for willpower or endurance regen! The cons...they're sort of icky. Aetherhunting would need a drastic revamp, unless aetheric willpower would be kept as a convenience. Artisans would have one less use. Not to mention all of the work that would pile on top of the likely bajillion things that the Guys Upstairs have on their plate already always. Artifact refunds, too...grugrh.

If it could be done in a way that doesn't make the coders head for the hills and live under assumed names for years at a time, while also not destroying existence as we know it, I wouldn't mind. But it's really a question of whether or not it's worth all of the work and rearranging. I find the concepts to be pretty straightforward, irritating as they can be every now and again. But aside from minor points of convenience, we really wouldn't have much to gain from removing them.

Tully

Make sure it makes sense for this game before copying from the other.

I am curious about when IRE fans started asking for "simplicity", as it seems the trend was--especially with Lusternia--to become "more complex", "more options", "different skillsets", "more customization", "more afflictions".  It seems in the last two years or so, the trend has been reversing itself.

Xenthos

I really like it as a concept, however, there are many things that exist which are pretty much built around endurance and willpower.

1) AB ATHLETICS BREATHE (this reduces endurance lost).
2) Willpower regeneration runes for manses / aetherships.
3) Rocking chairs.
4) Beds.
5) The Chessboard of Libertas.
6) Resilience.
Training your body to become more resilient is useful in ameliorating the
effects of poisons. This skill also overall tempers your body against
physical damage. Also, your endurance will regenerate faster, the greater
your skill.
( This one is one that I have to tell my newblets to learn when they are having endurance issues)
7) Personal endurance/willpower regeneration runes.
8) Waking up from sleeping will become much easier without willpower, which will affect sleep-locking classes.
9) And then individual guild skills that affect these regenerations (either positively or negatively).

So, yeah, as you said- it would definitely be a large project.

I do think it's worth at least considering it though, because they don't really add much to the game, they just add an additional mechanic that a number of other objects hitch off of.

Xenthos

Tully said:

Make sure it makes sense for this game before copying from the other.

I am curious about when IRE fans started asking for "simplicity", as it seems the trend was--especially with Lusternia--to become "more complex", "more options", "different skillsets", "more customization", "more afflictions".  It seems in the last two years or so, the trend has been reversing itself.

I feel like it's possible to have an engaging game without burdensome amounts of complexity; streamlining certain aspects of it does not really have to detract from the overall experience.

What really matters is whether or not the system being discussed adds anything beneficial, and I don't think this one actually does.

Tully

True, I know that.  I was just curious if this was a trend because it seems most game developers are talking about "streamlining", and yet some of the most bitter fans and vocal protests are coming from hard-core RPGers rejecting streamlining and calling it "dumming down".  I also noticed over the 7 years I've played the game is in, say, the first 4 years people wanted more complexity and more stuff, now people are complaining that combat is too complex, there are too many options, etc.  I'm just wondering if it's cyclical.

Neos

nooooo, not my #1 strategy

Xenthos

See, I don't think that complexity is a bad thing.  I think that complexity for the sake of complexity (ie, something that serves no useful purpose at all) is a bad thing, and that's the stuff that should be streamlined.

I further feel like endurance and willpower fit this quite nicely.  The only actual mechanical thing that they do is make it harder to wake up (to which a mechanical change could be made for sleep), or unable to perform certain actions if you somehow manage to run out entirely. All the rest of the items on my list are based around things that either increase the recovery or the amplify the drain.

When the actual impact of a mechanic is so limited, why keep it (assuming that there are resources available to do pursue it, given that it will be a beast)?

Karlach

You mean it'd be possible to bash some areas without tanking your willpower with clot spam?

Dynami

Willpower and endurance are a limiting factor for a lot of actions (clotting, making tarot cards, astrology spheres, and a bunch of other things I can't remember). So, I am not sure how much of a pain it would be to consider every action that involves a significant amount of willpower/endurance and how removing willpower/endurance will affect said actions in terms of balance.

Honestly, I would love it if willpower and endurance were removed so I could make as many tarot cards as I wanted or bash for an indefinite amount of time but there are guilds and skillsets that stand to lose far more from this change. The two examples I can think of off the top of my head are TP users that might rely on willpower drain in the case of a standoff since psyvamp drains something like 3% WP per hit. Also, anyone who uses a  skillset that can give heavy bleeding.

On the other hand, I remember reading that some people would like to move away from attrition combat since it doesn't really involve skill but basically "can you last long enough so that the other person doesn't have enough WP to be able to do anything?"

EDIT: Below, Thul mentions shouting. Please make sure to limit shouting if WP/END are removed.

Thul

There's a Nekotai strategy that's hypothetically possible that involves draining someone's endurance. I think some of the other guilds have similar tacts available... in practice, though, I haven't seen it in action, because it's far too much a long term strategy to see any sort of regular use.

You'd have to have some other mechanism in place to limit shouting. I think the 25% or so Endurance drain is the only thing that keeps the airwaves clean... but maybe it's just been enthusiastic lately with Ascension and all.

Eritheyl

Shofangi as well have a somewhat-effective endurance drain from what I recall, but I agree that combat of that sort should really be nipped to begin with. It's not a go-to option, as it shouldn't be, but that's a wee bit tangential to begin with. It's not a staple, I don't see the harm in it going away in that aspect.

Lavinya

Raising a shrine, derping and moving before its finished, losing loads of willpower and not being able to raise the shrine until you're at full WP again. Annoying annoying. I wouldn't mourn its loss.

Enyalida

It would take a lot of skill-going-through to really map out what it would change, if it's a meaningful/important/useful limitation, and to add in other limitations to compensate, but it could definitely be done. 

I'd be up to help work on that aspect of it, seems like a good project.

Malayn

I feel like there are some things that would need to be changed with this (rocking chairs, willpower runes, etc) but overall approve.

The only times I hear about willpower and endurance are 1)  Low level bashers who get stuck or 2) Attrition kills.   I do not know about everyone else but losing purely because something you cant cure runs out is dull.  Things that target willpower can be adjusted to do something else fitting I imagine, artys impacting regen can be refunded or also adjusted.

This also frees up an issue from monks who have found endurance attrition would be really easy  to use on the majority of the population (crushed chest, broken chest, punctured lungs, etc).

Keep in mind that at least two afflictions/skills would need a complete change,  ninaali (trembling which is a huge increase to endurance drain) and scrambled brains (the same for willpower).  We have no problem with these disappearing, but if you need we can create a comprehensive list of every artifact and skill that loses something in the process. Maybe sort by severity as well, if something is purely for wp/end its high priority, while things like contemplation (in psymet) would be slightly lower because it already does something else.

As a note there may be some other changes to look at because endurance and willpower cost is supposed to be part of the balancing factor (phantomspheres, the only power free ranged insta kill that forces you to run for instance). /phantomsphere hate.

Lerad

Assuming this isn't a joke, I'd like to put my support in for this.

Yes, the Nekotai have a possible strategy that can screw endurance users (warriors, lol, as though we need more help against them) if we do it properly. It's hard to pull off, though.

It being hard to pull off isn't a factor in my opinion. It being an absolutely idiotic strategy is. Well, this is my opinion, I don't want to ruffle the feathers of those who came up with the affs and the aff effects, but, seriously, turtling and outlasting via willpower and endurance? Calling that a "strategy" is almost an oxymoron. Obviously, I have similar ideas about sleep, hunger strategies, but those are irrelevant here.

Now, combat applications of willpower/endurance aside, in normal gameplay, they affect newbies the most. Almost all, if not all, demigods and above will see near to no will/end problems when bashing or crafting. I daresay 80+s will rarely be affected by it as well. Below 80s, though, casters will often see willpower dipping to 0 after a bit of bashing. I know it goes to 0 after an hour or so at around 50 or lower. Same for influencing. Warrior/monks also get pretty much the same deal at lower levels.

Why do we want to slap our newbies like that? They already have to deal with natural hunger and sleepiness. They don't need willpower/endurance limits on top of that. If this is a joke thread, I hope the admin consider making willpower/endurance a less irritating mechanic for newbies anyway, either by eliminating it from bashing attacks below a certain level, or something.

I didn't know will/end affects crafting to a large extent that Dynami mentioned. If this is true, please change it anyway as well. We already have a crafting system that doesn't have bulk crafting (fashion 50 vial, gimme pls) and doing stuff like that also costs will/end? If this is true, please consider changing it as well (yes, I'm repeating myself deliberately here.)

Ciaran

I was going to say we didn't need to change willpower and endurance, until I saw Lerad's post.  I have been 80+ for so long I don't remember ever having an issue.  However, obviously this sucks for newbies, but solving the problem will take a ton of work, as people have mentioned, there are tons of skills that have to do with endurance/will.

I say just give everyone (from level 1) demigod level willpower/endurance.  Will save you folks some work coding, and then it can be tweaked from there.

Lavinya

scribing tarot cards is one example of ridiculous willpower drain, @Lerad. It uses a lot of WP for not a lot of return, which is really frustrating when you're low levels and trying to stock up your deck.

Morbo

I would agree with getting rid of willpower and endurance.

I believe initially in achaea they were put in to serve as an attrition against trying to do too much, another balance aspect beyond mana to make it so you couldn't feasibly endlessly spam some things.

Lusternia already has this in power, and it's a cleaner system than wp/end so I have felt for awhile that endurance/willpower ontop of willpower didn't make a ton of sense, and was just one of those things that was created through rapture legacy instead of it being a clear desirable mechanic. 

I do think it makes sense for something like aetherhunts, but it's an added cost to certain abilities that -always- have commodity costs anyways. I think you could feasibly increase the commodity costs of most things if there was a disbalancing effect on the market being flooded, but there are so many ways to refresh endurance/willpower I don't see that being an issue.

The only skill balance issue I can see is in meteor, since currently the real limit to meteor isn't power or mana, it's endurance. However, It is an entirely different discussion if it -should- be the limiting factor there.

Shaddus

I think endurance/willpower should be kept, but it would be groovy if the drain for particular things could be looked at. I literally ran out of endurance from upkeeping statues in Hallifax. I've ran out of willpower repeatedly from stocking up on tarot card.

Incidentally, if willpower/endurance is removed, admin would also have to consider people with runes/artifacts that work with them, as well as manse gems and guildhall upgrades, as well as changing the use of rocking chairs.

Edit: or basically what Xenthos said earlier. Damn ninjas. /askance

Neos

Shaddus said:

I think endurance/willpower should be kept, but it would be groovy if the drain for particular things could be looked at. I literally ran out of endurance from upkeeping statues in Hallifax. I've ran out of willpower repeatedly from stocking up on tarot card. Incidentally, if willpower/endurance is removed, admin would also have to consider people with runes/artifacts that work with them, as well as manse gems and guildhall upgrades, as well as changing the use of rocking chairs. Edit: or basically what Xenthos said earlier. Damn ninjas. /askance

...Did it take you like 4 hours to write your post?

Shuyin

This is an excellent idea. 

All current endurance/willpower costs can be switched over to appropriate mana cost, power cost, or even a combination of both.

As far as arties, manse/guild upgrades go, just refund them and allow guilds to replace those upgrades with something else.

Lerad

I don't think switching over willpower costs to mana/power costs is appropriate. That would mess with inter-class balance, especially against toaders or manakillers. The only abilities I can think of that are limited by willpower/endurance for a good reason is shouts. In that case, just change shouts over to a different time-based limit. You can only shout once every 15 mins. Or you have 5 shout tokens at one time, and they recharge at 1 per midnight.

The vast majority of all other willpower/endurance costs are there for no reason. Upper levelled people don't notice it, and lowered level newbies get shafted. Trade abilities, which are already tedious enough, have the costs which make life even harder. I doubt there are many other exceptions, where there's a genuine need to limit an ability like shouts, but if such exceptions exist, they can be re-evaluated then and given a different mechanic to compensate.

It is a hell load of work, that's for sure, but it's an investment that will pay off, imo.

Shuyin

I really just meant that for skills that absolutely need to drain endurance/willpower for whatever reason, not every skill. I'm also fine with just limiting shouts to something like 2 per person per IC day.

In fact, I'd prefer it you left as many things unchanged as possible, just without an endurance/willpower cost. Seems simplest that way.

I think the biggest change would be to sleep/waking (sleeplocks), but you can just standardize those and we can balance around that.

The second biggest would be to rework affs like break/crushchest, scrambled brains, and whatever else.

Lerad

Yes, that's definitely reasonable, imo.

I don't mind outright removing afflictions that deal willpower/endurance damage. I've said my piece about what I think about willpower/endurance "strategies" already. As a guild that has one of the most potent endurance based aff (collapsedlungs increases endurance usage by 10x, or something ridiculous along those lines, iirc. A tumble with it effectively kills almost half your end) I don't mind seeing that functionality entirely removed, with replacements and adjustments to await envoy process.

Let's do this!

Svorai

It would be an annoyingly giant piece of work, but it would go some small way to helping lowbies. Emphasis on small. I don't think that will/end are so annoying that they make people hate the game and leave, and once they get to a certain circle, any issues with it are basically non-existent.

Sure, inscribing runes takes way more willpower than I'd like it to, but then, if I just did 20 at a time instead of two hundred million, it wouldn't affect me so much. 

Nice to have, sure. Necessary to have, no. I'd rather other things be investigated first. coughemotingcough

Rivius

Perhaps going against the crowd here, I don't necessarily think this is a good idea. While I do support making lusternia a little less complex, the concepts of willpower and endurance are far too entrenched into lusternia's mechanics to really make sure removal is so simple. 

As said before, it becomes a limiting factor for certain activities and abilities, it is a telepath's attrition kill and there's quite a few afflictions that drain or increase the drain of endurance and willpower. It wouldn't be an easy project to replace those, especially in keeping them balanced in the entire scope of the game.

I would rather we look into reconsidering how they work in combat, however -- though that may be a bit of a tangent as far as the scope of this subject goes. 

As far as attrition kills go, some people have expressed distaste for them, stating that simply draining an incurable vital is hardly strategic at all. This is actually where I both agree and disagree. I disagree that the concept of attrition is necessarily flawed, but believe that as far as these vitals go, that's perhaps one of the few things lusternia didn't get right. I feel that there is definitely a lot more skill in surviving for long periods of time than people imagine, but on the flip-side this concept is hurt by people who 'run' or 'turtle'.

One point, warriors cannot truly effectively use their endurance drain afflictions to get someone to 0 endurance, however a monk can do this very quickly. Warriors are meant to be the attrition class, yet this means of attrition is quite poor and unwieldly for them, unless their opponent is so far behind in curing that they cannot get to the endurance drainer (which is highly unlikely these days). When you look at telepaths (psychicvampirism) and telekinetics (from the clotting they force), they can actually drain your willpower fairly quickly, yet at least in the case of telekinetics, I'm doubtful that attrition was ever really a large part of their design.

Even if a warrior could get someone to 0 endurance, what sort of actions truly require it? It becomes extremely unbalanced because the only two classes that suffer from endurance drains are warriors and monks (except for a few small universal things). Warriors don't typically drain endurance very well, monks can do it excellently, pit these two against each other and it's essentially just an attrition affliction for a non-attrition class that is sped up to the extremes.

If endurance drains could be changed to be more attrition-like for monks and also more achievable for warriors as well as limiting more important actions across all classes, that would go a long way to making it a mechanic more worth keeping.

As far as willpower goes, I think there's very little worth changing there.

Shaddus

Neos said:

Shaddus said:

I think endurance/willpower should be kept, but it would be groovy if the drain for particular things could be looked at. I literally ran out of endurance from upkeeping statues in Hallifax. I've ran out of willpower repeatedly from stocking up on tarot card. Incidentally, if willpower/endurance is removed, admin would also have to consider people with runes/artifacts that work with them, as well as manse gems and guildhall upgrades, as well as changing the use of rocking chairs. Edit: or basically what Xenthos said earlier. Damn ninjas. /askance

...Did it take you like 4 hours to write your post?

I'm old, get off my back.

/hobble

Shaddus

We could do like one of the IRE games did, and make it where you have to be at a specific place to shout, and it costs you gold.

Llandros

Aetherbashing has it's own special type of willpower that can stay as it only serves that one particular function and I would rather that then it give insanity.

The impact of willpower and endurance can be stepped down so that it is easier to deal with and until it reaches a level people are happy with or just cut it out of the game all together.

My only real concern is astrology spheres. They can have very powerful effects that are limited by a large willpower drain. There would be direct impact on an entire tertiary for combat there.

Monk and warrior endurance/willpower drains can go without being missed. 

You can remove the willpower component from sleep and just base it on how tired people are.

I guess you could give shouts a power cost?

Cutting it out all together would be an artifact headache. There would be runes, manse gems, guild mods, and chalices to refund.

I think it is a noble goal though and you can dump a lot of the balancing work on the envoys to try and hash it out and come up with a proposal for you.

Tacita

I'm not categorically against it but like many others I'm concerned about some of the balancing issues involved, especially since there are so many things it affects that need to be considered.

Llandros's suggestion of shifting some of the work onto the Envoys is a good one. Maybe even if we just put together a list of abilities that are likely to be affected by the removal of willpower & endurance (both positively and negatively).