As noted - I'm not interested in continuing to discuss a decision that was already made, for better or worse. As this has clearly just continued, I'm going to close this thread.
It was brought to my attention that there was some good discussion going on in this thread prior to the re-hashing of Ascension outfall. I've decided to re-open the thread but want to say a few things about it.
I understand that the Ascension decision was not a popular decision for a lot of players, especially those on the Shadowlight side. I do earnestly believe that we made the right call in raising Ixion as a result of the lag issues that everyone agrees were a prevalent problem. We didn't take anything away from Shadowlight in doing so.
I also understand that it was not a perfect decision and there are parts involved that we could have done better. We could have tried to put more effort into listening and trying to come to an understanding with the other side that made everyone feel more invested and involved in the decision. We likely failed there trying to get the buy-in so that it was felt that it was fair and equitable.
We're not perfect and we don't pretend to be perfect.
There are two things that I do promise to always do, and these are things I know Aonia believes in.
1) We genuinely do our best to make the decision we feel is best for the game overall 2) We will learn and improve from our mistakes.
That being said - I'm not interested in further posts calling us out for what you feel was a bad decision. I've already heard it all at this point and know how you feel. The decision is made. We'll work on learning from it and trying to make decisions that everyone can be on board with in the future. We'll work on moving forward. Any posts bringing it back up will be removed.
Timequakes are fun and all, but they happen too frequently and take too long. I think there is a better idea than for 4 hrs in a 24hr time period, people will be stuck releasing an anomaly. That doesn't sound like fun conflict, even if the extra steps were taken to make it interesting, it isn't rewarding. For example, Magnagora has reached the peak of its research, the anomalies that we have left will just go to funding citizens archpower, but that basically meant most of us were not using archpower until we maxed out the entire research tree. So all those powers were mostly unused for months outside of timewind or immaculate control. That is just another conflict mechanic that was min/maxed and created a hostile environment for the losing side that snowballed into other areas.
Quick ideas on making Timequakes better: shorter, less frequent, or all participants of the winning side get 5 archpower to encourage more usage of research powers. Really none are ideal, but I'm not the best on ideas so hoping someone else can branch off of something.
Revolts and Flares - with the introduction of feelings, this was sort of an attempt to mirror the Domoth mechanic while not making it mechanically impossible. I think that was the correct path to take. I'm honestly not sure if revolts and flares are what helps lead to the avalanche, but once the other side starts snowballing, the revolts/flares are the first thing to go. Once one side starts dominating the villages/revolts, that should be your canary telling you to get out now because something is wrong. And when you do "Politics" and see all the other side, that could be morally crushing.
We should also recognize that the snowball effect in Lusternia is not a unique problem. It is a problem that exists in almost every game, there are wikipedia articles detailing the snowball effect, I don't think I've ever played a game that didn't have snowball mechanics that make it easier for one side to completely dominate. Add in the fact that we can switch sides at any point with our character and/or an alt, it helps further the avalanche. There are things that should be done to mitigate the snowball effect while still making it rewarding to participate in the avalanche.
And finally, at one point I heard the last competitive mode that saw any kind of competition was Orgcredits, yet since that comment, Ironhart has came in 1-2-3 place every single year. Perhaps the issue is not mechanical related at all since any area where competition has been in the past few months has been conceded, even ones that were not mechanically overbearing as PK.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
Hey Orael, thank you for being open to letting us talk it out.
Like I don't think there's a perfect solution here and it's going to take work to trying to improve our morale on SL side. Again, this isn't something the -admin- need to do, but our current gods can help with the small RP events they've been doing for us which is really appreciated.
I know a few people have looked at alting just to help out which is nice - I think a culture of trying to work together is needed. I think this is a player problem, and there's only small things the admin can do for us.
Quick ideas on making Timequakes better: shorter, less frequent, or all participants of the winning side get 5 archpower to encourage more usage of research powers. Really none are ideal, but I'm not the best on ideas so hoping someone else can branch off of something.
So I know I don't do timequakes, but theoretically - in addition to these changes, what if multiple anomalies could be present/spawn at once?
Timequakes are fun and all, but they happen too frequently and take too long. I think there is a better idea than for 4 hrs in a 24hr time period, people will be stuck releasing an anomaly. That doesn't sound like fun conflict, even if the extra steps were taken to make it interesting, it isn't rewarding. For example, Magnagora has reached the peak of its research, the anomalies that we have left will just go to funding citizens archpower, but that basically meant most of us were not using archpower until we maxed out the entire research tree. So all those powers were mostly unused for months outside of timewind or immaculate control. That is just another conflict mechanic that was min/maxed and created a hostile environment for the losing side that snowballed into other areas.
Seren is kinda the same just not maxed yet. There's all these benefits but if it's not passive or related to getting more anomalies, kinda not open for use really. The potential to trade between orgs is neat but I guess also, right now it's a reason for Seren to maintain the status quo? (cause we'd max out faster by trading with people that are already maxed and then be able to more freely use the benefits)
Also it's not so much alliance/basin-wide stuff, but both times Seren has lost research it's been kinda... the rest of the org venting frustration at the guild who lost it. Feeling bad about stuff doesn't necessarily help where maybe the guild is already not doing the best.
And finally, at one point I heard the last competitive mode that saw any kind of competition was Orgcredits, yet since that comment, Ironhart has came in 1-2-3 place every single year. Perhaps the issue is not mechanical related at all since any area where competition has been in the past few months has been conceded, even ones that were not mechanically overbearing as PK.
The trouble is, the lower morale from losing battles also hurts the motivation to compete in orgcredits. They may not be directly related and a lot of it isn't combat, but consider: OrgA is winning the fights and has a lot of people showing up to every event. All of them are excited about the victories and the feeling that their org is the best. Some of them will also be willing to create designs or write books/plays about how their org is the best. If OrgB is constantly losing and people aren't logging in as much and everyone feels like they're failing = a lot less motivation to get involved in other ways.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
If we were to go by the current hard alliances (IHC vs SL), it would be 40 vs 20. But if we were going to operate under ad hoc agreements, we could have Gaudiguch-Serenwilde-Celest fielding 35 vs Magnagora-Hallifax-Glomdoring fielding 30. It's a much more even spread and it might make for a more competitive quake.
I would even argue that it makes more RP sense; freedom-loving Gaudiguch should not be so close with hierarchical Magnagora. Serenwilde shouldn't be so close to the Gaudiguch, the city that literally burned a road through their forest. Whenever they work together, it should be because it's the last resort.
Edit;
It might even help the huge OOC divide that seems very prevalent. Right now, there are Shadowlight and IHC echo chambers wherein their players basically just reinforce one another's ideas about the Other Side. It fuels animosity. If alliances were much looser, then we might be more open and accommodating to a wider selection of players.
It might even help the huge OOC divide that seems very prevalent. Right now, there are Shadowlight and IHC echo chambers wherein their players basically just reinforce one another's ideas about the Other Side. It fuels animosity. If alliances were much looser, then we might be more open and accommodating to a wider selection of players.
This is a reason I'm in the servers for both alliances because I feel like it makes me able to see it from both sides. If I only ever played Yin and stuck to SL servers, I would actually really hate Mboagn. But I've been around on the other side and I can see that they're actually pretty hilarious and kind IG. I feel like sometimes people need that perspective to not think of people as assholes. I cop flak sometimes though, from people telling me I only like people in Mag because I'm 'really a Mag' despite me playing Yin full time for the last 5 months.
It might even help the huge OOC divide that seems very prevalent. Right now, there are Shadowlight and IHC echo chambers wherein their players basically just reinforce one another's ideas about the Other Side. It fuels animosity. If alliances were much looser, then we might be more open and accommodating to a wider selection of players.
This is a reason I'm in the servers for both alliances because I feel like it makes me able to see it from both sides. If I only ever played Yin and stuck to SL servers, I would actually really hate Mboagn. But I've been around on the other side and I can see that they're actually pretty hilarious and kind IG. I feel like sometimes people need that perspective to not think of people as assholes. I cop flak sometimes though, from people telling me I only like people in Mag because I'm 'really a Mag' despite me playing Yin full time for the last 5 months.
This is also why I think more fluid and less restrictive alliances would be better, but I don't think we should base it solely on numbers. Those are going to fluctuate from week to week, and there should be some consistency about who we're fighting with today.
The OOC divide is driving a LOT of the atmosphere that drives people away from the game, imo. I really wish people would talk to each other to get both perspectives rather than taking the word of their echo chamber about The Way Things Are. You really don't know what other other people are like or what they think about anything unless you ask them.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
If we were to go by the current hard alliances (IHC vs SL), it would be 40 vs 20. But if we were going to operate under ad hoc agreements, we could have Gaudiguch-Serenwilde-Celest fielding 35 vs Magnagora-Hallifax-Glomdoring fielding 30. It's a much more even spread and it might make for a more competitive quake.
I would even argue that it makes more RP sense; freedom-loving Gaudiguch should not be so close with hierarchical Magnagora. Serenwilde shouldn't be so close to the Gaudiguch, the city that literally burned a road through their forest. Whenever they work together, it should be because it's the last resort.
So yeah, like Serenwilde realistically has reasons to oppose every other org in the basin and but we are basically in a last resort.
We have allies because we need them, if we didn't we'd have weaker defenses when Glom, or any org really, decided to raid us. Treaties also help protect faethorn which is important to us. Being able to rely on them provides a lot of benefits to Serenwilde, it's basically a configuration that is always going to win and the mechanics/rewards are set up in a way that you always want to win. We also derive benefits from being able to learn from a broader group of people outside conflict.
Without some mechanical reinforcement, even if you're rebuilding your teams every quake you're probably going to go to the people you normally work and win with first. The only reason to not is if you don't think you'll win with them that time. In the numbers outlined above, a fair game would be what you suggested, but a strategic game would be for IHC to swap out Gaudi or Seren for Celest.
This is also why I think more fluid and less restrictive alliances would be better, but I don't think we should base it solely on numbers. Those are going to fluctuate from week to week, and there should be some consistency about who we're fighting with today.
The OOC divide is driving a LOT of the atmosphere that drives people away from the game, imo. I really wish people would talk to each other to get both perspectives rather than taking the word of their echo chamber about The Way Things Are. You really don't know what other other people are like or what they think about anything unless you ask them.
No, you are a Bad Person, I can't believe anything you say! -shakefist-
And finally, at one point I heard the last competitive mode that saw any kind of competition was Orgcredits, yet since that comment, Ironhart has came in 1-2-3 place every single year. Perhaps the issue is not mechanical related at all since any area where competition has been in the past few months has been conceded, even ones that were not mechanically overbearing as PK.
Gonna jump on this.
Silvanus isn't wrong. I'm having to bribe Hallifaxians to make designs, half of our city cartels haven't had an accepted design in 3+ years ingame, and I've went so far as to offer to pay people to contest these cartels and submit designs. I actually contested for the tattoo cartel, but made the mistake of classflexing out of monk, and I think it probably stopped the contestation.
Nobody in Hallifax is writing plays anymore. Very few are writing books. Half the time, people are just afk or roleplaying, and I love that, but it doesn't bring in orgcredits, or give new players a reason to stick around because Hallifax looks deserted. We've had a few new people show up lately like Aevum, Zoraida, Sofka, but we're not getting nearly the new people that other orgs are picking up. Whether this is because of the Ascension or not is moot, really. Hallifax simply has nothing drawing people in right now, and very few active, visible people outside myself and a few others.
Glomdoring especially has kind of fallen down. I haven't seen Snald, Xenthos, Tarken, or many other "leaders" in Glomdoring in a very long time. Celest has picked up, but the population is spotty at best.
Meanwhile, Gaudiguch is booming, Serenwilde is apparently doing well, and Magnagora is on top. This isn't entirely because they dominate in timequakes, but I can't help but to think being the winners on a constant basis lately does kind of lead to people wanting to play there. Serenwilde is constantly getting designs approved, as is Magnagora.
I guess I'm kinda all over the place with this post, but my point is this: People in some orgs have just decided that it's not worth it to fight or contribute, and I can't blame them. It's been shown that even if you try your hardest, either the other side is still going to win, or if you win, the other side still gets their first place trophy. Shadowlight is too quick to throw their hands up and shrug, and I get it. I've devoted myself in game to something that the other side can't take away from me, and can't do some kind of quest to ruin it for me.
Her voice firm and commanding, Terentia, the Even Bladed says to you, "You have kept your oath to Me, Parhelion. You have sworn to maintain Justice in these troubled times."
Yet if a boon be granted me, unworthy as I am, let it be for a steady hand with a clear eye and a fury most inflaming.
No, you are a Bad Person, I can't believe anything you say! -shakefist-
You're just saying that because you're really a Mag.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
@Parhelion - I've done that once or twice with city cartel trademaster elections and it has still worked out. Should be okay so long as you were in a position to vote for yourself before flexing.
EDIT: Serenwilde enjoyed a strong activity boom and now it looks like some aspects are simply going to lull for a bit due largely to OOC circumstances - not much to be done about that, especially since I hardly have time to try to design anything with any degree of competence now either.
And finally, at one point I heard the last competitive mode that saw any kind of competition was Orgcredits, yet since that comment, Ironhart has came in 1-2-3 place every single year. Perhaps the issue is not mechanical related at all since any area where competition has been in the past few months has been conceded, even ones that were not mechanically overbearing as PK.
Nobody in Hallifax is writing plays anymore. Very few are writing books. Half the time, people are just afk or roleplaying, and I love that, but it doesn't bring in orgcredits, or give new players a reason to stick around because Hallifax looks deserted. We've had a few new people show up lately like Aevum, Zoraida, Sofka, but we're not getting nearly the new people that other orgs are picking up. Whether this is because of the Ascension or not is moot, really. Hallifax simply has nothing drawing people in right now, and very few active, visible people outside myself and a few others.
While I can't speak for most people, my desire to write books for the game is low. My interest lies in the scholarly topic, but since new rules saying you have to put a disclaimer on all unproven statements I have no interest in writing scholarly only to write "this is actually fake" at the start of it. My friend who recently started playing again is in a similar mindset with regards scholarly books.
Remove this requirement and let players decide of something is fake or not, let players find the counterproof if it exists. Don't 'reject' books (and thus hurt an org's library) because it doesn't provide poof of the statements. Real world scholarly books are riddled with falsehoods that are presented has fact and they still pass peer reviews. The same should be for Lusternia.
i will openly admit, the designs in Magnagora are very strongly being muscled along on my shoulders. I took over some inactive cartels, and I put through a lot of designs of my own for a) we get paid and b) org credits means better for all of us. It's also definitely an easy way for people to contribute, especially not liking conflict.
I had other stuff typed and Seren as an example of a lively org with not a huge list of always around pkers but I really don't want to come across as antagonising or dismissive. All I can suggest is pursue your joy in the game, whatever that may be. Design what you love, get those quest lines, make frenemies, spar everyone who will engage with you - whatever it is. Lusty should never ever be a job or obligation, and activity and enjoyment of the game, your org, your order, whatever, always breeds more.
I had other stuff typed and Seren as an example of a lively org with not a huge list of always around pkers but I really don't want to come across as antagonising or dismissive. All I can suggest is pursue your joy in the game, whatever that may be. Design what you love, get those quest lines, make frenemies, spar everyone who will engage with you - whatever it is. Lusty should never ever be a job or obligation, and activity and enjoyment of the game, your org, your order, whatever, always breeds more.
.Sure, people should find things in the game they like outside of combat, especially if the don't like combat or conflict events. But there are people on the SL side that do. They should have some opportunity to participate in that part of the game, too, and feel that they can improve at it. That's really hard to do if you're usually outnumbered and, more importantly, facing more experienced combat leaders and pkers. Just sparring more doesn't address the reason why people bother to spar at all - to compete.
And my own selfish motivations here are that I'd like to compete too, but I don't find the current conflict enjoyable. I know it's complained about all the time in IHC servers, too. There's certainly other things I could do in the game, and I like doing those things. Doesn't change the lack of competition frustrations.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
Could always attempt to get two groups of people to face off, and let each other learn how to lead. That's what I use to do on Achaea, I taught myself by leading KoTHs and whatnot, and eventually found myself leading raid defenses. In Imperian I was even leading 1 city and 2 councils into combat against a much bigger and stronger opponent than us, so it is possible to do (learning how to lead, I mean). You just have to put the time and effort into learning, I mean, sure it would be helpful to have more seasoned players around that can lead to help guide you to learn, but sometimes that isn't an option and you have to wing it. If I'm coming off as mean or rude for my suggestion, I apologize. I don't mean to be, I'm just trying to be helpful and offer up an idea that might be something you (or someone else if that is the case) can do.
EDIT! Some conflict systems should be reworked a bit so that losing isn't so bad. Right now, for example, not having enough villages would absolutely suck for your commodities because there's no real way to get comms outside of villages.
They also suck with villages. We are completely, utterly riding out on our stockpiles on the idea that the admin can just flip a switch to up production at any time, and I'm not necessarily looking forward to how necessary villages will feel once we get to that point (unless the economic revamp just swerves in a totally different direction). But for the time being, if you can't actively produce it through active player inputs, it is a trickle.
Hallifax already didn't really have stockpiles compared to the others. We're getting pretty low on some stuff right now. We've had no villages for like a month at least, and so what little comm production we had is gone.
Czixi, the Welkin murmurs, "Fight on, My Effervescent Sylph. I will be with you as you do."
Aian Lerit'r, Lead Schematicist exclaims to you, "A *paperwork* emergency, Chairman!
@Parhelion - I've done that once or twice with city cartel trademaster elections and it has still worked out. Should be okay so long as you were in a position to vote for yourself before flexing.
EDIT: Serenwilde enjoyed a strong activity boom and now it looks like some aspects are simply going to lull for a bit due largely to OOC circumstances - not much to be done about that, especially since I hardly have time to try to design anything with any degree of competence now either.
I kinda wish there were more non-conflict org activities for org credits personally. Like, yay I get credits for bashing/influencing/questing and just giving points for those ticks wouldn't work but ways to mechanically feel like you helped were missed earlier when you weren't a combatant.
I know it's not combat and conflict which people are missing out on, but ways to feel like you're succeeding/advancing/progressing/etc even if conflict isn't working out right now might at least help with morale to retain people?
That's what I use to do on Achaea, I taught myself by leading KoTHs and whatnot, and eventually found myself leading raid defenses.
What is KoTHs?
I think it is something people should try to do, also, referring to the rest of your post.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
I kinda wish there were more non-conflict org activities for org credits personally. Like, yay I get credits for bashing/influencing/questing and just giving points for those ticks wouldn't work but ways to mechanically feel like you helped were missed earlier when you weren't a combatant.
I know it's not combat and conflict which people are missing out on, but ways to feel like you're succeeding/advancing/progressing/etc even if conflict isn't working out right now might at least help with morale to retain people?
Well, there are 180 total possible points available that don't require combat or conflict outside of your org (designs, stage, library, psychodrama). I would go in the other direction, and give rewards for pk competitions.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
I kinda wish there were more non-conflict org activities for org credits personally. Like, yay I get credits for bashing/influencing/questing and just giving points for those ticks wouldn't work but ways to mechanically feel like you helped were missed earlier when you weren't a combatant.
I know it's not combat and conflict which people are missing out on, but ways to feel like you're succeeding/advancing/progressing/etc even if conflict isn't working out right now might at least help with morale to retain people?
What's wrong with stage, books, designs already?
I was a non-com for the first ten years of the game. I don't think there's anything wrong with it if all you want to do is hang out in your org and make pretty things and build culture.
However, I feel like you're derailing this thread from being about what can we do to improve the combat situation for combatants and turning it into 'why can't we give more things to the people who aren't the combatants' and that's not really what this is about. I can design away, write things and it's not at all impacted by the combat situation. I've been pushing RP and events in game and it's in no way impacted by the combat situation, so I don't understand why you're coming back with more things about ways non-combatants can contribute to help improve something unrelated to the combat situation.
That's what I use to do on Achaea, I taught myself by leading KoTHs and whatnot, and eventually found myself leading raid defenses.
What is KoTHs?
I think it is something people should try to do, also, referring to the rest of your post.
King of the hill, if I remember correctly you could set the arena game up to have a moving "Hill" (it's been a while since I have actually participated or started any arena game on any IRE game) which was a really good chance to be able to practice leading a defense as well as leading an attack.
Edit: Was also a good way to learn how to work in groups as well, along side giving the newbies a chance to learn -how- to be effective in groups and what they can do to assist their team in getting kills. I know that it's probably not something that a lot of people want to do, I mean taking time to constantly go into an arena and fight over and over again to learn things can be kind of boring and is sometimes slow, but when you lack any other way to learn, there isn't much than can beat teaching yourself and learning from your mistakes. Especially since most people can go back and review the logs (I'm not sure how Nexus logging works I'm afraid) in clients like Mudlet and Mush. I go over ever fight I participate in and if I see something that I don't know, or am curious about I start asking around about what X is and what it does.
I kinda wish there were more non-conflict org activities for org credits personally. Like, yay I get credits for bashing/influencing/questing and just giving points for those ticks wouldn't work but ways to mechanically feel like you helped were missed earlier when you weren't a combatant.
I know it's not combat and conflict which people are missing out on, but ways to feel like you're succeeding/advancing/progressing/etc even if conflict isn't working out right now might at least help with morale to retain people?
What's wrong with stage, books, designs already?
I was a non-com for the first ten years of the game. I don't think there's anything wrong with it if all you want to do is hang out in your org and make pretty things and build culture.
However, I feel like you're derailing this thread from being about what can we do to improve the combat situation for combatants and turning it into 'why can't we give more things to the people who aren't the combatants' and that's not really what this is about. I can design away, write things and it's not at all impacted by the combat situation. I've been pushing RP and events in game and it's in no way impacted by the combat situation, so I don't understand why you're coming back with more things about ways non-combatants can contribute to help improve something unrelated to the combat situation.
Nothing, I was saying they were an improvement on the past.
The suggestion was simply that if combat isn't great right now and people are leaving because of that, maybe there are other ways that could be tried to keep those players engaged. Maybe there are other ways to make the situation feel less bad and help with morale to try to maintain populations so that numbers can stabilise and maybe even grow over time. That could also be something like the hunting grounds for Aetolia (seems like... one person per org free-for-all with personal prizes), boss mobs, idk stuff that people who aren't having a good time might enjoy as a diversion.
Numbers, alliances, mechanisms, and all that seem like hitting the actual conflict side of things could be pretty complex so trying to mitigate the impacts might help *shrug*.
I kinda wish there were more non-conflict org activities for org credits personally. Like, yay I get credits for bashing/influencing/questing and just giving points for those ticks wouldn't work but ways to mechanically feel like you helped were missed earlier when you weren't a combatant.
I know it's not combat and conflict which people are missing out on, but ways to feel like you're succeeding/advancing/progressing/etc even if conflict isn't working out right now might at least help with morale to retain people?
What's wrong with stage, books, designs already?
I was a non-com for the first ten years of the game. I don't think there's anything wrong with it if all you want to do is hang out in your org and make pretty things and build culture.
However, I feel like you're derailing this thread from being about what can we do to improve the combat situation for combatants and turning it into 'why can't we give more things to the people who aren't the combatants' and that's not really what this is about. I can design away, write things and it's not at all impacted by the combat situation. I've been pushing RP and events in game and it's in no way impacted by the combat situation, so I don't understand why you're coming back with more things about ways non-combatants can contribute to help improve something unrelated to the combat situation.
Nothing, I was saying they were an improvement on the past.
The suggestion was simply that if combat isn't great right now and people are leaving because of that, maybe there are other ways that could be tried to keep those players engaged. Maybe there are other ways to make the situation feel less bad and help with morale to try to maintain populations so that numbers can stabilise and maybe even grow over time. That could also be something like the hunting grounds for Aetolia (seems like... one person per org free-for-all with personal prizes), boss mobs, idk stuff that people who aren't having a good time might enjoy as a diversion.
Numbers, alliances, mechanisms, and all that seem like hitting the actual conflict side of things could be pretty complex so trying to mitigate the impacts might help *shrug*.
The issue isn't keeping players engaged though, it's the lack of combat for those who play for the PK part of the game. Lack of combat leadership, lack of numbers to participate, and lack of knowledge to be shared with others who want to get involved with PK.
Sure, you could do all of that to raise morale and whatnot, but that won't change anything in the combat side of things for either side. I personally play Lusternia mostly for the combat, I'm not against doing other things or RPing, I just enjoy the combat side of things and I know I'm not alone. But it's rather discouraging to try and get involved into combat when A, there is a sever lack of combat leadership to direct who needs to be targeted, B, the numbers are stacked against you in highly unfavorable odds, and C, when there aren't many people who are able or willing to share their knowledge of combat as <insert class here> with others who want to learn.
Edit: At least that's my understanding. Morale aside anyway, because if you can manage to cover at least 2 of those things, morale will begin to rise even if slowly.
A few of us were discussing the issue of "lack of PK interest" on discord together, and I voiced that I liked the idea of essentially having a mini war domoth tournament and it was stated that there it could be gamed. I have an idea that might become a decent solution on how to fix this issue.
Instead of letting the players decide who is on what team, why not make it a randomized tournament? Those who want to participate register in the tournament, and then the teams are randomly picked. This way the teams could, in theory, be with one member from Mag, Celest, and Glom (just as an example). This way there wouldn't be a way to really "game" it, while also giving others a chance to learn how to fight/lead/and share their knowledge with others outside of their alliance?
I admit, it's probably not the -greatest- solution out there, but I do feel that there is at least some merit to the idea.
I think it would be neat to have conflict events which weren't dependent on alliances or somewhat turned the status quo on its head, and had a rough idea for how one might work, and figured I might as well outline my thoughts.
Shifting timequake
When people enter the quake, they are randomly assigned to teams like wargames, with the number of teams determined by the number of players so that teams don't get too large.
Teams are randomly reassigned to keep things interesting every 10 minutes or so? As well as when you're down to one team standing, to ensure that there's always someone to fight.
Instead of things that benefit your org, rewards would be personal - some amount of archpower or experience/essence per kill your team gets against other teams, with more if you get the kill yourself?
At least in my head, this would be something that would encourage fighting for the full length of the quake, would allow anyone to jump in and participate, as well as force people to cooperate with people they'd normally be fighting against (which I think is a good thing to start to bridge some of the ooc divide.)
I know this idea doesn't directly address the root causes of imbalance in the game like discrepencies in player pop, activity times, or alliances, but something like this would hopefully alleviate some of the pain of feeling locked out of things.
Comments
As noted - I'm not interested in continuing to discuss a decision that was already made, for better or worse. As this has clearly just continued, I'm going to close this thread.
I understand that the Ascension decision was not a popular decision for a lot of players, especially those on the Shadowlight side. I do earnestly believe that we made the right call in raising Ixion as a result of the lag issues that everyone agrees were a prevalent problem. We didn't take anything away from Shadowlight in doing so.
I also understand that it was not a perfect decision and there are parts involved that we could have done better. We could have tried to put more effort into listening and trying to come to an understanding with the other side that made everyone feel more invested and involved in the decision. We likely failed there trying to get the buy-in so that it was felt that it was fair and equitable.
We're not perfect and we don't pretend to be perfect.
There are two things that I do promise to always do, and these are things I know Aonia believes in.
1) We genuinely do our best to make the decision we feel is best for the game overall
2) We will learn and improve from our mistakes.
That being said - I'm not interested in further posts calling us out for what you feel was a bad decision. I've already heard it all at this point and know how you feel. The decision is made. We'll work on learning from it and trying to make decisions that everyone can be on board with in the future. We'll work on moving forward. Any posts bringing it back up will be removed.
Like I don't think there's a perfect solution here and it's going to take work to trying to improve our morale on SL side. Again, this isn't something the -admin- need to do, but our current gods can help with the small RP events they've been doing for us which is really appreciated.
I know a few people have looked at alting just to help out which is nice - I think a culture of trying to work together is needed. I think this is a player problem, and there's only small things the admin can do for us.
Also it's not so much alliance/basin-wide stuff, but both times Seren has lost research it's been kinda... the rest of the org venting frustration at the guild who lost it. Feeling bad about stuff doesn't necessarily help where maybe the guild is already not doing the best.
Let's say, at a given timequake, the organizations can field these numbers:
Gaudiguch (10)
Magnagora (20)
Serenwilde (10)
Hallifax (5)
Glomdoring (5)
Celest (15)
If we were to go by the current hard alliances (IHC vs SL), it would be 40 vs 20. But if we were going to operate under ad hoc agreements, we could have Gaudiguch-Serenwilde-Celest fielding 35 vs Magnagora-Hallifax-Glomdoring fielding 30. It's a much more even spread and it might make for a more competitive quake.
I would even argue that it makes more RP sense; freedom-loving Gaudiguch should not be so close with hierarchical Magnagora. Serenwilde shouldn't be so close to the Gaudiguch, the city that literally burned a road through their forest. Whenever they work together, it should be because it's the last resort.
Edit;
It might even help the huge OOC divide that seems very prevalent. Right now, there are Shadowlight and IHC echo chambers wherein their players basically just reinforce one another's ideas about the Other Side. It fuels animosity. If alliances were much looser, then we might be more open and accommodating to a wider selection of players.
Explorer (80%), Achiever (53%), Socializer (53%), Killer (13%)
Bartle Taxonomy
(test yourself)
if angels set things on fire for fun and also messed with mortals by sending very cryptic messages
Explorer (80%), Achiever (53%), Socializer (53%), Killer (13%)
Bartle Taxonomy
(test yourself)
The OOC divide is driving a LOT of the atmosphere that drives people away from the game, imo. I really wish people would talk to each other to get both perspectives rather than taking the word of their echo chamber about The Way Things Are. You really don't know what other other people are like or what they think about anything unless you ask them.
So yeah, like Serenwilde realistically has reasons to oppose every other org in the basin and but we are basically in a last resort.
We have allies because we need them, if we didn't we'd have weaker defenses when Glom, or any org really, decided to raid us. Treaties also help protect faethorn which is important to us. Being able to rely on them provides a lot of benefits to Serenwilde, it's basically a configuration that is always going to win and the mechanics/rewards are set up in a way that you always want to win. We also derive benefits from being able to learn from a broader group of people outside conflict.
Without some mechanical reinforcement, even if you're rebuilding your teams every quake you're probably going to go to the people you normally work and win with first. The only reason to not is if you don't think you'll win with them that time.
In the numbers outlined above, a fair game would be what you suggested, but a strategic game would be for IHC to swap out Gaudi or Seren for Celest.
Gonna jump on this.
Silvanus isn't wrong. I'm having to bribe Hallifaxians to make designs, half of our city cartels haven't had an accepted design in 3+ years ingame, and I've went so far as to offer to pay people to contest these cartels and submit designs. I actually contested for the tattoo cartel, but made the mistake of classflexing out of monk, and I think it probably stopped the contestation.
Nobody in Hallifax is writing plays anymore. Very few are writing books. Half the time, people are just afk or roleplaying, and I love that, but it doesn't bring in orgcredits, or give new players a reason to stick around because Hallifax looks deserted. We've had a few new people show up lately like Aevum, Zoraida, Sofka, but we're not getting nearly the new people that other orgs are picking up. Whether this is because of the Ascension or not is moot, really. Hallifax simply has nothing drawing people in right now, and very few active, visible people outside myself and a few others.
Glomdoring especially has kind of fallen down. I haven't seen Snald, Xenthos, Tarken, or many other "leaders" in Glomdoring in a very long time. Celest has picked up, but the population is spotty at best.
Meanwhile, Gaudiguch is booming, Serenwilde is apparently doing well, and Magnagora is on top. This isn't entirely because they dominate in timequakes, but I can't help but to think being the winners on a constant basis lately does kind of lead to people wanting to play there. Serenwilde is constantly getting designs approved, as is Magnagora.
I guess I'm kinda all over the place with this post, but my point is this: People in some orgs have just decided that it's not worth it to fight or contribute, and I can't blame them. It's been shown that even if you try your hardest, either the other side is still going to win, or if you win, the other side still gets their first place trophy. Shadowlight is too quick to throw their hands up and shrug, and I get it. I've devoted myself in game to something that the other side can't take away from me, and can't do some kind of quest to ruin it for me.
EDIT: Serenwilde enjoyed a strong activity boom and now it looks like some aspects are simply going to lull for a bit due largely to OOC circumstances - not much to be done about that, especially since I hardly have time to try to design anything with any degree of competence now either.
I had other stuff typed and Seren as an example of a lively org with not a huge list of always around pkers but I really don't want to come across as antagonising or dismissive. All I can suggest is pursue your joy in the game, whatever that may be. Design what you love, get those quest lines, make frenemies, spar everyone who will engage with you - whatever it is. Lusty should never ever be a job or obligation, and activity and enjoyment of the game, your org, your order, whatever, always breeds more.
And my own selfish motivations here are that I'd like to compete too, but I don't find the current conflict enjoyable. I know it's complained about all the time in IHC servers, too. There's certainly other things I could do in the game, and I like doing those things. Doesn't change the lack of competition frustrations.
Czixi, the Welkin murmurs, "Fight on, My Effervescent Sylph. I will be with you as you do."
Aian Lerit'r, Lead Schematicist exclaims to you, "A *paperwork* emergency, Chairman!
I know it's not combat and conflict which people are missing out on, but ways to feel like you're succeeding/advancing/progressing/etc even if conflict isn't working out right now might at least help with morale to retain people?
I think it is something people should try to do, also, referring to the rest of your post.
I was a non-com for the first ten years of the game. I don't think there's anything wrong with it if all you want to do is hang out in your org and make pretty things and build culture.
However, I feel like you're derailing this thread from being about what can we do to improve the combat situation for combatants and turning it into 'why can't we give more things to the people who aren't the combatants' and that's not really what this is about. I can design away, write things and it's not at all impacted by the combat situation. I've been pushing RP and events in game and it's in no way impacted by the combat situation, so I don't understand why you're coming back with more things about ways non-combatants can contribute to help improve something unrelated to the combat situation.
Edit: Was also a good way to learn how to work in groups as well, along side giving the newbies a chance to learn -how- to be effective in groups and what they can do to assist their team in getting kills. I know that it's probably not something that a lot of people want to do, I mean taking time to constantly go into an arena and fight over and over again to learn things can be kind of boring and is sometimes slow, but when you lack any other way to learn, there isn't much than can beat teaching yourself and learning from your mistakes. Especially since most people can go back and review the logs (I'm not sure how Nexus logging works I'm afraid) in clients like Mudlet and Mush. I go over ever fight I participate in and if I see something that I don't know, or am curious about I start asking around about what X is and what it does.
The suggestion was simply that if combat isn't great right now and people are leaving because of that, maybe there are other ways that could be tried to keep those players engaged. Maybe there are other ways to make the situation feel less bad and help with morale to try to maintain populations so that numbers can stabilise and maybe even grow over time.
That could also be something like the hunting grounds for Aetolia (seems like... one person per org free-for-all with personal prizes), boss mobs, idk stuff that people who aren't having a good time might enjoy as a diversion.
Numbers, alliances, mechanisms, and all that seem like hitting the actual conflict side of things could be pretty complex so trying to mitigate the impacts might help *shrug*.
Sure, you could do all of that to raise morale and whatnot, but that won't change anything in the combat side of things for either side. I personally play Lusternia mostly for the combat, I'm not against doing other things or RPing, I just enjoy the combat side of things and I know I'm not alone. But it's rather discouraging to try and get involved into combat when A, there is a sever lack of combat leadership to direct who needs to be targeted, B, the numbers are stacked against you in highly unfavorable odds, and C, when there aren't many people who are able or willing to share their knowledge of combat as <insert class here> with others who want to learn.
Edit: At least that's my understanding. Morale aside anyway, because if you can manage to cover at least 2 of those things, morale will begin to rise even if slowly.
Instead of letting the players decide who is on what team, why not make it a randomized tournament? Those who want to participate register in the tournament, and then the teams are randomly picked. This way the teams could, in theory, be with one member from Mag, Celest, and Glom (just as an example). This way there wouldn't be a way to really "game" it, while also giving others a chance to learn how to fight/lead/and share their knowledge with others outside of their alliance?
I admit, it's probably not the -greatest- solution out there, but I do feel that there is at least some merit to the idea.
Shifting timequake
When people enter the quake, they are randomly assigned to teams like wargames, with the number of teams determined by the number of players so that teams don't get too large.
Teams are randomly reassigned to keep things interesting every 10 minutes or so? As well as when you're down to one team standing, to ensure that there's always someone to fight.
Instead of things that benefit your org, rewards would be personal - some amount of archpower or experience/essence per kill your team gets against other teams, with more if you get the kill yourself?
At least in my head, this would be something that would encourage fighting for the full length of the quake, would allow anyone to jump in and participate, as well as force people to cooperate with people they'd normally be fighting against (which I think is a good thing to start to bridge some of the ooc divide.)
I know this idea doesn't directly address the root causes of imbalance in the game like discrepencies in player pop, activity times, or alliances, but something like this would hopefully alleviate some of the pain of feeling locked out of things.