As a monk who has to deal with stance/parry and lacking the option of even a starkick equivalent (not that I can capitalize on it, since I have no salve stack too), I don't think being able to circumvent it is just "nice to have". It's an important, and a central consideration in my form building and combat. I personally think the Tahtetso are one of the more properly balanced guilds with the exception of shattered ankle being possibly too cheap (my opinion), and as a result doesn't need a greenlock. If your arguments can convince the admin, then sure, good luck. It hasn't convinced me thus far, is all.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I call those mantras 'meta mantra' which are not chanted, but are based on which of the basic mantras you have active. Like Akhoosh (the MANTRA WIND one), for which you need 3 basic wind mantras active.
As for the regeneration, I've never been an herbalist, but if I'm not mistaken, being trans herbs increases sparkleberry curing from 10% to 20% of max hp/mana/ego. That's 10% of all stats every six seconds. Granted, it is not a passive cure (and since monks can be herbalists, it can be stacked onto harmony).
Still, I've personally always found the actual buffs from harmony way more interesting and useful than the regeneration tick every 10 seconds or so (I'll look into the exact tick frequency soon), even though it IS considerable. I'd trade the regeneration and stat scrambler for a defense in the magnitude of Nightkiss any day (since it is a trans skill, I'll gladly trade in the harmony trans skill on top).
If only monks had a way to get super high dmp...oh wait.
I would suggest avoiding the "your arguments aren't very strong" approach, since they do indeed seem to be quite stable. Lerad has invested a significant amount of time and effort into being able to discuss Monkitude in all its various permutations.
His disagreeing with you does not make his argument weak by "default".
I will also say that whenever modifications to stance and parry are thrown around, the "but Monks!" rebuttal comes up. Nobody wants to lose stance and parry against monks because it is effective! Thus, combat for monks (and warriors) comes down to working around stance and parry. The ease with which this can be done is indeed a balancing factor that must be accounted for.
His disagreeing with you does not make his argument weak by "default".
I stated why I think they are weak. Parry/stance works against monks. However, it works against tahtetso, too. They get one modifier (against legs) to negate stance. That helps, but is a bit thin as an argument against a lock for the spec after the changes I suggested. Especially since, as I also stated, Nekotai get other nice features in return, already.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
You have more easily accessible prones and a better ability to prolong said prones than nekotai. This is just a reality of the class design
We have two prones that don't cost momentum: Starkick and doublekneecap. Both are rng-moves and need some wounds to work reliably. With spit, Nekotai have far easier access to doublesleep proning. Not great, but neither are our proning methods.
As for keeping people down, since the original post suggests to drop shatteredankle, we'd have mangles, shatteredspine and hemiplegy+collapsedlungs, on top of broken legs (those via a wound-dependent modifier). Nekotai have tendon, mangles (via grapple/ender), severedspine and pierced legs + collapsedlungs, the latter not preventing standing, but giving it a chance to fail. While we have shatteredankle, I agree, we have a better ability to keep people down. That's not the premise of most of the above discussion, though.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Nekotai have zero prones that don't cost momentum. Tendon and spine both cost two. It's pretty relevant when you are discussing and comparing locks and whether they are needed or not. Being able to largely negate stance and parry for periods of time kind of diminishes the need for locks. Which is why nekotai have strong locks, because they have costly prones.
I already mentioned double morphite. That is a prone that costs no momentum, and one that Nekotai can apply best among the monk guilds.
Of course being able to prone and keep prone is relevant, but it is not a black and white thing. The ability of tahtetso to prone is rather tame outside of reliable moves that cost momentum. Their ability to KEEP people down is currently fairly considerable, but that's due to shatterankle. Which would no longer be available as part of the suggestions here.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Dismissing poison as an option for a guild that is focused around poisons? Okay then!
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
No, not quite the angle I was going for. I just think you are making a hell of a stretch to justify your argument.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Basically I don't know of any scenario where double morphite is somehow a preferable alternative to mantakaya, and it makes your argument really weird.
DOuble morphite is just as much as rng as anything you have plus you can use double morphite as well, so that argument falls a bit flat. Yes you don't get creehai, or the spit chance, you can still use it, but odds are you will probably settle for your starkick.
Double morphite sprawls, mantakaya doesn't (severedspine doesn't). If you just want to circumvent parry/stance for the following form, then beast spit/nekotai spit with mantakaya will do the trick. This argument helps my case rather than yours, though.
EDIT: And if I want to reliably prone someone, I'll not employ starkick. It has its uses, but it is not universally useful for proning by a long shot.
Both guilds have equally reliable prones, they cost momentum. If you want to compare starkick to doublemorphite employing spit, then you can't really call one or the other more reliable, since starkick won't work at all without some wounds on chest or head, doublemorphite will. On the other hand, once you have a certain wound level, starkick should work more reliably than doublemorphite with spit. However, you can choose freely where to attack with doublemorphite, starkick is more limited.
And? The nekotai spit isn't exactly reliable (or frequent), and the reduced shrugging chance costs a big chunk of ka. You're really barking up the wrong tree on that one.
How is spit not reliable, it gets resisted only by resilience shrugging? Starkick is not a free move you can just toss in whenever as a tahtetso. If you want your wound-dependent tahto attacks to fire, you will want to precede them with a kick to the same bodypart (usually legs) in that combo. If you want starkick to fire, you need wounds on those bodyparts, so unless you have already spent a good amount of time building wounds, you will have to preceed starkick with tahto attacks to the chest or head. Can't have it all at once.
Double morphite is a poison based sprawl, yes. To use it as a sprawl, the nekotai can:
1) Envenom it twice on his nekai in a form. 2) Beast spit + nekotai spit. 3) Beast spit/Nekotai spit + 1st nekai hit in a form envenomed. 4) Beast spit/Nekotai spit + 1 leg dart hit in a form envenomed.
Option 1 means that the two nekai hits must come first in the form, and until AFTER the second nekai hit, will the morphite work, so... it bypasses nothing. Option 2 is the best of the above choices. Beast spit is on beast balance. Which is 10s. Nekotai spit is on its own balance as well. Which is 8s. As mentioned, beast spitting mantakaya is probably a more efficient choice, and available to all monks. Options 3 and 4 all come with the same caveat as option 2 in terms of both the private balance time as well as the more efficient choice of mantakaya.
Double morphite is, in other words, no more and no less effective than beast spitting mantakaya - which everyone (not only monks) have. If you want to compare the Nekotai's proning to the Tahtetso proning, remove the common factors. The Tahtetso repertoire outside of beast spitting mantakaya is far better than the Nekotai's for sprawling or proning. Saying that the Nekotai have double morphite which is more "effective" due to their poison (this is true), and equating this to the Nekotai having "the same" proning capabilities as the Tahtetso is a fallacy.
On a slightly less relevant note, nekotai spit doesn't provide its shrugging bonus when recovering from usage. Against opponents that do envenoming, it's usually better to keep it unused and use it for locking/finishers. Of course, this is opinion, and not exactly relevant here. But basically, nekotai spit has an opportunity cost, and it's not always used for extra poisoning.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
....but why are you sprawling. They're just going to stand up again. There's no value to a sprawl over mantakaya in the context you are talking for a nekotai, other than requiring two poisons to proc just for the added RNG fun.
Comments
If only monks had a way to get super high dmp...oh wait.
His disagreeing with you does not make his argument weak by "default".
I will also say that whenever modifications to stance and parry are thrown around, the "but Monks!" rebuttal comes up. Nobody wants to lose stance and parry against monks because it is effective! Thus, combat for monks (and warriors) comes down to working around stance and parry. The ease with which this can be done is indeed a balancing factor that must be accounted for.
As for keeping people down, since the original post suggests to drop shatteredankle, we'd have mangles, shatteredspine and hemiplegy+collapsedlungs, on top of broken legs (those via a wound-dependent modifier). Nekotai have tendon, mangles (via grapple/ender), severedspine and pierced legs + collapsedlungs, the latter not preventing standing, but giving it a chance to fail. While we have shatteredankle, I agree, we have a better ability to keep people down. That's not the premise of most of the above discussion, though.
Of course being able to prone and keep prone is relevant, but it is not a black and white thing. The ability of tahtetso to prone is rather tame outside of reliable moves that cost momentum. Their ability to KEEP people down is currently fairly considerable, but that's due to shatterankle. Which would no longer be available as part of the suggestions here.
Okay then.
EDIT: And if I want to reliably prone someone, I'll not employ starkick. It has its uses, but it is not universally useful for proning by a long shot.
1) Envenom it twice on his nekai in a form.
2) Beast spit + nekotai spit.
3) Beast spit/Nekotai spit + 1st nekai hit in a form envenomed.
4) Beast spit/Nekotai spit + 1 leg dart hit in a form envenomed.
Option 1 means that the two nekai hits must come first in the form, and until AFTER the second nekai hit, will the morphite work, so... it bypasses nothing. Option 2 is the best of the above choices. Beast spit is on beast balance. Which is 10s. Nekotai spit is on its own balance as well. Which is 8s. As mentioned, beast spitting mantakaya is probably a more efficient choice, and available to all monks. Options 3 and 4 all come with the same caveat as option 2 in terms of both the private balance time as well as the more efficient choice of mantakaya.
Double morphite is, in other words, no more and no less effective than beast spitting mantakaya - which everyone (not only monks) have. If you want to compare the Nekotai's proning to the Tahtetso proning, remove the common factors. The Tahtetso repertoire outside of beast spitting mantakaya is far better than the Nekotai's for sprawling or proning. Saying that the Nekotai have double morphite which is more "effective" due to their poison (this is true), and equating this to the Nekotai having "the same" proning capabilities as the Tahtetso is a fallacy.
On a slightly less relevant note, nekotai spit doesn't provide its shrugging bonus when recovering from usage. Against opponents that do envenoming, it's usually better to keep it unused and use it for locking/finishers. Of course, this is opinion, and not exactly relevant here. But basically, nekotai spit has an opportunity cost, and it's not always used for extra poisoning.
This argument makes no sense.