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Tahtetso Suggestions
Ever since I first started playing, there have been issues with this skillset which mostly result from the fact that the instant kill conditions are, compared to those for other instant kills, relatively easy to achieve, even if not necessarily easy to keep up long enough for the kill. That makes the kill method especially and overly deadly in group situations, where you have other people helping to maintain or establish said conditions.
On the other hand, the skillset offers few other options of achieving kills with its windpipe move being two-handed (a grapple-ender).
I have picked out the skills that I think are relevant for above problem or generally might need an overhaul for other reasons and put the suggested changes below. Feedback welcome, and if this finds approval, it would not be bad to get this done in a special report.
Bomrakobo End a lock grapple with limb dislocation. (250ka, -1mo, two-handed)
Problem: Locking limbs no longer raises momentum, and with this move costing one momentum and being two-handed, its neither really useful at low nor high momentum.
Suggestion: Make this move a grapple ender for Bairak (the weapon grapple, see below) or introduce a new weapon grapple for it. Possibly remove the momentum cost (since it is still two-handed)
Bairak Grapple the head with your staff in a choke hold. (200ka, two-handed)
Problem: See Bomrakobo problem/solution.
Suggestion: Make this weapon grapple work for the limbs in addition to the head, so that is can be used for Bomrakobo. For limbs, instead of the short blackout it does for the head, have it make curing hemiplegy impossible on the grappled arm, or lower hemiplegy for a grappled leg. Other suggestions for suitable arm/leg effects welcome.
Bairakobo End a bairak hold with a crushed windpipe. (200ka, two-handed)
Problem: Being a grapple ender, this is a two-handed move, which makes achieving a lock with crushedwindpipe rather problematic, to say the least.
Suggestion: Change its effect to brokennose (with the usual short stun) or fracturedskull and introduce another move for crushedwindpipe (see below).
Bomol'sho Paralyze the lower body. (200ka, two-handed)
Problem: A two-handed move for lower hemiplegy is sub par, especially considering that Bomir'rak (125ka, one-handed) allows for hemiplegy on the arms.
Suggestion: Make this a one-handed move, give it a 1mo loss, and increase the ka cost of Bomir'rak to at least 175 ka.
Block Ward off most physical attacks. (currently only usable outside of a kata form, blocks melee attacks, but nothing else)
Problem: You cannot do ANYTHING while using it, not LOOK, not talk via SAY, TELL, on clans or otherwise, let alone cure. It is fairly useless, even against a melee opponent.
Suggestion: Make this a modifier for tahto attacks which is used with a bodypart as an argument (200ka, -1mo). The following suggestions for the effects, all of which would last for 5 seconds: 1. the covered bodypart will be protected by ka deflect. Works only for the non-"shield" arm or ONE leg. 2. the covered bodypart will be protected as if PARRY 75 were active.
Bomolah'sho Shatter ankles to prevent movement. (225ka, -1mo, one-handed)
Problem: Some see this as a central problem, I personally only find double ankle annoying. But with access to mangles and breaks, this move might not be needed as is once a lock can be more easily obtained than is currently the case.
Suggestion: Remove this skill and replace it with a kick (300ka, -1mo) that is usable against the head for crushedwindpipe (and possibly against other body parts for medium affs, nothing special). Since reliable proning costs momentum for a tahtetso (and starkick would not work together with this), it would make a windpipelock cost at least 2 momentum, and for a good, somewhat reliable lock using raktiah'sho x2 (for collapsedlungs and prone/broken leg), it would need boost. (total cost 1100 ka without modifiers)
Gahtiah'sho Induce the heart to falter. (400ka, modifier for a basic tahto attack against the chest)
Problem: This being an (at higher momentum) easily obtainable regeneration aff makes it very dangerous in group situations, since it is relatively slow to cure.
Suggestion: With the better options for locks (see above), turn this into a MENDING affliction. Rest stays as is.
On the other hand, the skillset offers few other options of achieving kills with its windpipe move being two-handed (a grapple-ender).
I have picked out the skills that I think are relevant for above problem or generally might need an overhaul for other reasons and put the suggested changes below. Feedback welcome, and if this finds approval, it would not be bad to get this done in a special report.
Bomrakobo End a lock grapple with limb dislocation. (250ka, -1mo, two-handed)
Problem: Locking limbs no longer raises momentum, and with this move costing one momentum and being two-handed, its neither really useful at low nor high momentum.
Suggestion: Make this move a grapple ender for Bairak (the weapon grapple, see below) or introduce a new weapon grapple for it. Possibly remove the momentum cost (since it is still two-handed)
Bairak Grapple the head with your staff in a choke hold. (200ka, two-handed)
Problem: See Bomrakobo problem/solution.
Suggestion: Make this weapon grapple work for the limbs in addition to the head, so that is can be used for Bomrakobo. For limbs, instead of the short blackout it does for the head, have it make curing hemiplegy impossible on the grappled arm, or lower hemiplegy for a grappled leg. Other suggestions for suitable arm/leg effects welcome.
Bairakobo End a bairak hold with a crushed windpipe. (200ka, two-handed)
Problem: Being a grapple ender, this is a two-handed move, which makes achieving a lock with crushedwindpipe rather problematic, to say the least.
Suggestion: Change its effect to brokennose (with the usual short stun) or fracturedskull and introduce another move for crushedwindpipe (see below).
Bomol'sho Paralyze the lower body. (200ka, two-handed)
Problem: A two-handed move for lower hemiplegy is sub par, especially considering that Bomir'rak (125ka, one-handed) allows for hemiplegy on the arms.
Suggestion: Make this a one-handed move, give it a 1mo loss, and increase the ka cost of Bomir'rak to at least 175 ka.
Block Ward off most physical attacks. (currently only usable outside of a kata form, blocks melee attacks, but nothing else)
Problem: You cannot do ANYTHING while using it, not LOOK, not talk via SAY, TELL, on clans or otherwise, let alone cure. It is fairly useless, even against a melee opponent.
Suggestion: Make this a modifier for tahto attacks which is used with a bodypart as an argument (200ka, -1mo). The following suggestions for the effects, all of which would last for 5 seconds: 1. the covered bodypart will be protected by ka deflect. Works only for the non-"shield" arm or ONE leg. 2. the covered bodypart will be protected as if PARRY 75 were active.
Bomolah'sho Shatter ankles to prevent movement. (225ka, -1mo, one-handed)
Problem: Some see this as a central problem, I personally only find double ankle annoying. But with access to mangles and breaks, this move might not be needed as is once a lock can be more easily obtained than is currently the case.
Suggestion: Remove this skill and replace it with a kick (300ka, -1mo) that is usable against the head for crushedwindpipe (and possibly against other body parts for medium affs, nothing special). Since reliable proning costs momentum for a tahtetso (and starkick would not work together with this), it would make a windpipelock cost at least 2 momentum, and for a good, somewhat reliable lock using raktiah'sho x2 (for collapsedlungs and prone/broken leg), it would need boost. (total cost 1100 ka without modifiers)
Gahtiah'sho Induce the heart to falter. (400ka, modifier for a basic tahto attack against the chest)
Problem: This being an (at higher momentum) easily obtainable regeneration aff makes it very dangerous in group situations, since it is relatively slow to cure.
Suggestion: With the better options for locks (see above), turn this into a MENDING affliction. Rest stays as is.
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(c) Iron Realms Entertainment 2012.
Comments
Make lock maintain mo (similar to oriama does now).
I disagree with the rest. Too many changes, too far impacting. Far too many forms that would need be looked at.
Firstly, there are some potential problems I spot just from looking at the suggestions for the first few changes, but since the last two are what you're really gunning for, Vey, I'll address those first.
For everyone else reading the thread and getting confused by the names, the long and short of it all is that Veyrzhul wants to give the Tahtetso a reliable greenlock (like Shofangi/Nekotai do) while at the same time making it easier to cure the Tahtetso insta. A summary of the effect of the last two changes he proposed:
1) Tahtetso now can give
- Crushed Windpipe (Prevents eating - herb cure)
- Collapsed Lungs (Prevents smoking - regen cure)
- Prone + Broken Leg
In a single form, with the following costs:
- 1100 total ka weight (requiring 5p to boost from 5mo in order to increase the normally 1000 max ka limit to 1500)
- -3mo (-1mo for each of the above afflictions)
- Also requires the successful application of a senso poison
2) Change chestpain (required for the Tahtetso insta) from a regen cure to a mending cure.
Now, for those who want to know what the Nekotai greenlock looks like:
Gives
- Slit-Throat (Prevents eating and smoking, mending cure)
- Tendon OR Severed Spine (Regen-cured Prone)
Costs
- 1100 (If tendon is used) or 1050 (if severed-spine is used) ka weight, so requires 5p for boosting as mentioned above.
- -3mo (-1mo for slit-throat, -2mo for either tendon or severed spine)
- Also requires the successful application of a senso poison
Theoretically, Veyrzhul's suggestion and the current Nekotai lock is pretty much the same on paper. In actual effect, there WILL be slight differences, because of the minor variations both guilds can do to tweak the actual lock (along with the extra 400 ka weight both locks still have left unallocated) as well as the fact that the moves do not do the same damage/bleeding/wounding. The Nekotai lock also is considered the most reliable lock in the game because the Nekotai have the addtional ability to give up to 2 more poison applications than the usual monk as well as access to a Nekotai-only modifier that increases the chance of their poisons being successful, so the lock Veyrzhul suggests giving to the Tahtetso will still be inferior to the Nekotai lock when all the other factors are brought into consideration.
Now, having said all that, it is important to note now that there is a reason the Tahtetso never had access to such a lock. Or rather, if you want to look at it from another angle, there is a reason the Nekotai are consistently and repeatedly denied certain mechanics that the other monks have.
Firstly, the Nekotai have no active sprawl that costs less than -1mo, or is not a grapple-ender. Related to this point, the Nekotai have no regen-cured prone (RGP) that costs less than -2mo, or is not a grapple-ender (-1mo in that case). Still related to this point, the Nekotai is the only monk guild to have no access to cracked elbows or kneecaps. All of these are meant specifically to deny the Nekotai the ability to strategically bypass stance and parry without either costing momentum or power (using the monk lunge).
Secondly, the Nekotai have access to the following afflictions in their abilities that hinder the opponent's ability to attack: pecked eyeballs - costs -1mo, requires at least 3mo. Regen-cured blind when both are pecked. ... ... And that's it. Well, there's scorpiontail, which procs on a successful stance (useless against castors) and prones the target. Essentially a combo-breaker. And then there's all the prones mentioned above that costs momentum or is a grapple-ender. The Nekotai do not even get broken limbs outside of a grapple ender - the only way is via poisons.
Lastly, and perhaps a little irrelevantly, the Nekotai have a dismal instakill. It is instantly cured when the curative is consumed, and on potion curative balance (1s or 1.5s balance, I can't remember off-hand) and is always the first cured for that potion. There's no way to stack cures to even give a chance to have the cure randomly hit something else. It effectively requires the Nekotai to achieve and THEN maintain a complete greenlock until the insta is finished. Assuming 2.7s (faeling speed) per form, that requires a total of 16 seconds:
0s - application of lock
2.7s - attack to go from 2mo->3mo
5.4s - attack to go from 3mo->5mo
7.4s (the +2mo skill has a slightly shorter balance) - attack to apply insta
15.4s - insta kills target.
This dismal insta is, possibly, a problem with the Nekotai, something that should be fixed rather than something we should insist other monk guilds to have. So it's possible it's a little irrelevant. But it's still a pertinent point at this point in time of the discussion.
Note that I'm not here to whine about my class. The above drawbacks are all handicaps I have to struggle against because I acknowledge the skillset has its strengths elsewhere. We do not have cheap active prones, which means we constantly have to tactically counter stance and parry. We do not have access to many hinders, but we get more poisons to make up for it. We do not have a viable instakill (possibly a problem that should be envoyed), but we have other kill methods. All of these, however, are part of the reason why the Nekotai has such a reliable greenlock, and which in turn meshes with the existence of the greenlock to define how a Nekotai achieves his combat strategy - through tactical application of poisons and smart stacking of herb cures while constantly applying bleeding pressure. The Nekotai combat style is not perfect, there are definitely places that envoying can help improve it as well, to make it more fun still for both the user and the opponent - it is, however, at a decent status quo.
Now, the Tahtetso, on the other hand, have double hemiplegy at low momentum (effectively paralysis on smoke (herb) balance) to hinder the opponent. The Tahtetso have one of the best salve-stacking repertoire in the game. And they have a no momentum cost, active prone. Though it relies on wounds. They also have access to kneecaps. Though it also relies on wounds. They have an insta that is reasonably viable that also synergizes with the skillset.
I question if the suggested change of the Tahtetso insta requirement aff, from regeneration to mending, is enough to justify such a greenlock. I also question why this skillset needs a reliable greenlock in the first place. The Tahtetso aren't hurting from lack of damage, nor lack of wounding, nor lack of ways to bypass stance/parry, nor lack of viable insta. The thread starts with the premise that the Tahtetso insta is too easy to achieve in groups - does the suggested change address that? Will chestpain being cured by mending instead make it any less easy to achieve in groups? It should be noted that I've also mentioned before in another thread that the greenlock (the Nekotai lock specifically) is actually far more useful and deadly in groups than the Tahtetso's insta. Will these changes actually address group combat dynamics the thread started out claiming to attempt to resolve?
There could be places the Tahtetso skillset be improved. That much I am in total agreement with. But I do not think giving them a reliable greenlock is the right step.
P.S. Removing shattered ankles is not a bad idea, really. In the current status quo, shattered ankles allow Tahtetso the potential to give a regen-cured prone (rgp) for only -1mo. I've waxed lyrical about how this may or may not be a good idea in a thread in the Combat Logs section, so I'm not going to revisit it at length, but suffice it to say that I don't agree with the cost of shattered ankles. This is my personal opinion, of course.
Regarding hemiplegy, it is not a paralysis equivalent. Hemiplegy prevents standing and prevents using the affected limb for actions requiring it, but it does neither put you in a prone status (able to bypass stance/parry), nor does the easily obtainable arm hemiplegy prevent moving around (since that only needs the legs).
I think you misunderstand the premise of this thread. I'm actually rather sure that, while the 'cheese kill method' will be prevented by report 1068 (if it goes through), complaints about the insta especially in groups will not stop, because it IS a dangerous insta there. Moving it from regen cure to mending cure would alleviate that, but would then require a more reliable method to hardlock. That's what the last two suggestions are about.
I'm okay with making heartflutter a mending cure or an automatic regen cure, rather than delayed. Would make the regen/mending stack an actual thing.
Easier locks aren't needed, regardless of any changes to gahtirak'sho. Firstly, monks have moved away from easily obtainable locks because they are just too reliable in monk hands. Warriors have to set them up with a prone before hand, where as monks just dish them out in a single hit, as well as have the capability of stacking a myriad of affs to prevent green/gedulah from curing the correct affs. Shofangi have moved to a much more difficult lock, and are closely coparable to tahtetso because of their ability to prone consistently and frequently as well as stack high numbers of cure. Nekotai have moved away from the easy lock, and now have a very expensive and reliable lock. I'm okay with their more reliable version because they lack the easy access to prones and momentum building hindering on a myriad of body parts. The issue with tahtetso is you have to watch so many body parts, and stance parry only does so much, and does less against a monk than it does against a warrior.
For Bairak, on the one hand I've okay with getting rid of the essentially unblockable blackout, but on the other, I don't really agree with -more- hemi, or incurable hemi.
I also don't think 1068 doesn't go far enough. It limits the cheese, it does not stop it. Whatever that fight recently was where Veyrzhul pulled off three gahtirak'shos in less than 15 seconds against experienced fighters indicates they don't really need the full 10 power boost to pull it off.
Personally I think Tahtetso need to take a page from the SD playbook and eat a big nerf and figure it out from there before asking for a series of buffs. Maybe tahtetso will need it (I'm highly doubtful, but you never know), but you should look into nerfing more than a 10 power boost before asking for it. They've been riding the easy train for a while, envoys get pretty frustrated dealing with them. Look into toning harmony down, addressing hemi spam, etc etc. Then move forward with buffs as needed.
The Bairak change was not meant to remove the blackout, just add the limbs to the targetable bodyparts and introduce a grapple effect for that. Not sure what you mean by unblockable blackout (as compared to the blockable versions dreamweavers, hexes users and all others have?), maybe you meant the melee attack being unblockable by stance/parry, but that is only the case in higher momentum when you can use steelgrip and goes for non-melee attacks that give blackout, too.
Of course report 1068 won't prevent the instant kill in groups. If you change it until it can no longer be used at all, that's hardly balancing it - and I made a suggestion to make it less dangerous in groups. It's just that the suggestion alone without a better lock option is only crippling, and I'm not talking about getting twists in exchange for choke, but getting a kick into the groin in exchange for choke.
What issues do you have with harmony? What is so dangerous about hemiplegy? Seriously asking, because I don't think either of them are problematic. Especially for harmony, you have to always keep in mind that it's not a nice array of defenses/active skills that you get up collectively and enjoy or can use at any time, you have to choose. Which is why I generally find it dubious when people simply compare single skills of their skillsets to harmony mantras or even the meta mantras.
EDIT:
You make it sound a bit as if chestpain were all there is needed for a kill, which is not the case. Getting someone sprawled and keeping them that way usually requires a bit of extra work, the infamous 'cheese form' where you prone, shatterankle and chestpain in one hit and can kill from there being the exception - an exception that report 1068 is dealing with.
The blackout grapple is two-handed and the blackout is very brief. All I can do in addition to it is one kick. It is not long enough to hide the next form.
Momentum means little if you can't do anything with it. If I have no means of either pulling off an insta, a lock, or a straight out damage kill (without a lock), then I can keep cycling mangles and severspines until I'm blue, I won't be getting a kill. So the momentum mechanism is not really the problem as long as there is some balance with regards to what you can do with momentum.
You can change mantras while on balance/eq and not hindered by certain things, but it still means that not all of the effects of harmony are on you at any one time together, as is the case with almost all defenses from other skillsets (transmology defenses being the only prominent exception). Super tumble is stopped by (shrine) distort. Regen is certainly a problem for certain classes to face 1v1, but I can say the same for facing a passively shackling Nihilist I'm fighting. It is a bit of rock-paper-scissors, sometimes. That said, if someone has a good idea for a meta mantra effect to take place of the stat scramble, bring the ideas!
I personally never had a problem with doublehemi; if you really hate it all that much, stance arms and put all parry on one of the arms, and it is almost impossible to get hemied twice. One hemi is an instant cure. I still have no problem raising the ka cost of Bomir'rak to 175 or 225.
Then we have the 'super tumble' Mantra Wind. Which is usable in states that don't allow, say, Night Flight, but it requires you to have the meta mantra active already for optimal use, because changing mantras via Highchant is not only something you don't wanna do while aeoned or sapped, it is also hindered by things that don't hinder the Mantra Wind. And then we have a prismatic barrier that doesn't allow you to do anything aside from talking and looking. Otherwise it drops. Sure, it is useful, but game-changing? I don't know. The actual single mantra defenses are all harmless dmp, summon resistance etc. effects.
Harmony regen is entirely outside of all other forms of regeneration. and can be stacked up to three times (though that prevents the use of other passive boosts from harmony). So you can hit the max level 3 racials via enchants and runes and racials, and then lock regeneration in psymet (which is also seperate) and then lock regeneration in harmony. Harmony monks have, hands down, the best regeneration in the game, period. Harmony's power switch also allows you to bring up a prismatic shield at almost any time, whether you were locking regeneration in harmony or locking other passive boosts. Alternatively, a stronger evade.
Note that my comment in my post about shattered-ankles as a potential RCP is explained in detail in the other thread: I am fully aware it does not sprawl on its own, and it is with that included in my considerations that I consider it still too cheap a cost.
Note that my comment on Tahtetso double-hemiplegy is in regards to it as a hinder to the opponent's offense: I was comparing it to the Nekotai's lack of opponent's offense hindering. Tahtetso don't use double-hemi as a way to bypass stance and parry - they already have a plethora of sprawls and broken legs and RCPs and a great salve stack. They also have kneecaps.
My essential objection is still unanswered: Why does the Tahtetso, with their capability to bypass stance and parry as well as deal decent damage (with 2 damage boost modifiers from Kata/Tahtetso, and the harmony damage(stat) boost modifier, and the psymet wound boost modifier) as well as stack salves for sprawling, need an easy lock?
How does making chestpain a mending cure make it any more difficult to achieve the Insta in groups? It doesn't, really. RCPs can still be easily maintained with the help of a warrior or another Tahtetso, and making it a mending cure doesn't exclude 2 Tahtetso from doing the same thing they've been doing - chestpain and insta. It's not going to "cripple" the insta in groups pretty much at all. It'll make a difference 1v1, but, I don't think the Tahtetso need help 1v1 either.
The prismatic shield, as I said, allows no actions, or it drops. So it does have its uses, but it is not a cheap serpent by any means.
Lerad, I don't have an artied out tahto, so I can't really comment on the damage capabilities of tahtetso on the high end. I have very serious doubts that a tahtetso can feasibly damage kill as is. We don't have the stun and salve application hindering modifiers for leg attacks that shofangi have, so stacking salve affs is a tad more difficult for us. We also have no kick to add salve afflictions.
On the same line, I could question why Nekotai, who can stack vessels quite nicely, need a lock. The best answer is probably that while stacking vessels (or building wounds for damage) might be a feasible tactic 1v1 (I have my doubts with regards to tahtetso damage, as I said), it can be rather slow and there are situations where you want a bit of a burst. And that's where you get the option to spend 5/8 power at momentum 5 to have a good shot at a lock. I don't mind giving Ninjas a better (more reliable) locking setup, too.
If you cannot see how turning chestpain into an instant cure makes it harder to get the kill in groups, I don't know what to say. It should be obvious how having a window of 50-300 ms (depending on the link of the opponent) makes it more tricky than when you have a window of a few seconds. Even moreso if there is not another tahetso in the group.
This is why the Nekotai have the most reliable lock in the game. That's my argument. If you want the Tahtetso to have a lock comparable to the Nekotai one, then the Tahtetso skillset needs to be compared to the Nekotai one.
I'm sorry, but chestpain on mending is still a salve cure. It's still going to be stacked with warriors who can sprawl and lock, with other Tahtetso who can insta off your chestpain, with aeon or sap casters. The window is shortened, but it is still going to be easy to achieve. Now, if this is a proposed change in isolation, then yeah, of course it would be an improvement over the current situation. But you're asking for a lock comparable to the Nekotai's in return. Do you really think it'll make it harder to perform the insta?
If you do, I don't know what to say.
You don't need great means of circumventing parry and stance if you can build vessels on a KICK against any limb. Curing of those is very slow, unless you forfeit wound curing applications. More means to and higher chance to poison can help greatly, too. Mantakaya can be a great way to circumvent parry and stance. Herb stacking is not useless. Tendon is useful for hindering, not only for a lock. You probably all know that, but still seem to believe that the tahtetso means towards a kill are so greatly superior. And that's your reason why Nekotai need a lock and tahtetso don't.
The Nekotai rcps were mentioned in that post as part of our enemy offense hindering capabilities - with the note that they have appropriately high costs. Costs that some Tahtetso equivalents do not have. Higher poison chances was also clearly mentioned there, acknowledging that it helps to offset the disadvantages I mentioned - doesn't invalidate them, but I certainly did acknowledge and consider them in my response. I also specifically mentioned herb stacking as one of our tactical strategies.
All of that are considered in my post, which you either do not feel like understanding, or are not interested in understanding.
The Tahtetso are still superior to the Nekotai in their capability to bypass stance/parry. The Tahtetso still have much better enemy offense hindering. The Tahtetso still have no problems with building wounds, nor churning out damage. All these considered, I do not believe the Tahtetso are in need of a lock anywhere remotely near comparable to the Nekotai one. I've responded to this thread a total of 4 times including this post, and throughout this entire period, none of my concerns have been addressed. Not "inadequately addressed", but rather, they were not addressed at all. I therefore remain unconvinced due to the lack of any argument.
And yes, you're the one that brought up GROUP BASED usage of the insta in your FIRST POST as the premise of all of these changes. If you're going to think group based dynamics and then specifically ignore certain possibilities, then it is clear that is not your real premise. If you're not willing to be open about why you want these changes, I see no reason to support them, simply because I am unable to evaluate your suggestions in light of your motive.
As for the regeneration, I've never been an herbalist, but if I'm not mistaken, being trans herbs increases sparkleberry curing from 10% to 20% of max hp/mana/ego. That's 10% of all stats every six seconds. Granted, it is not a passive cure (and since monks can be herbalists, it can be stacked onto harmony).
Still, I've personally always found the actual buffs from harmony way more interesting and useful than the regeneration tick every 10 seconds or so (I'll look into the exact tick frequency soon), even though it IS considerable. I'd trade the regeneration and stat scrambler for a defense in the magnitude of Nightkiss any day (since it is a trans skill, I'll gladly trade in the harmony trans skill on top).
Harmony, and monks, do not need a defense "in the magnitude of Nightkiss", whatever that means. Harmony by itself, is being proposed, as a side-comment, for a nerf because it is being perceived to be too strong. (I personally believe Harmony regeneration is simply amazing. Whether or not it is too strong I have no opinion at the moment.) Going by the logic of the discussion so far, giving up regeneration or the stat scrambler does not justify having something else being put in exchange, and definitely not a buff above what Harmony was already capable of.
All of the above are also only peripherally relevant to the original topic: that of giving Tahtetso a reliable greenlock. Even if you really want to factor Harmony into the picture, and going by everything that was said about Harmony thus far from both sides, I'm finding it even less logical to be proposing giving the Tahtetso a greenlock in the status quo.
As for harmony, if you get rid of two skills (Akhooshlumang aka stat scramble and Regeneration), it is pretty much a given that you get something to replace them. I don't think skills have ever been simply removed from a skillset.
Going by the logic of the discussion between you and Celina thus far, which is whether Harmony is overpowered, with specific references to its regeneration, it is not "pretty much a given" that something has to replace it. It hinges on the outcome of the discussion - if Harmony (and harmony regen) IS overpowered, then it should be toned down, and not neccesarily with anything given in "exchange". Using the word "remove" perhaps allows space for arguments of semantics, but I'm not really interested in that here.
Regardless of whether we eventually come to the conclusion of Harmony regen being overpowered or not, buffing it above what it is already capable of is definitely out of the question. I don't think you'll disagree with this. A defense "in the magnitude of Nightkiss" can be anything from stat improvements to weapons, to large dmp to all damage types, to alternate damage attack or any combination thereof. All of which, I'm sure, will be putting Harmony above what it can already do. I highly doubt even complete removal of harmony regeneration and stat scrambling and the Harmony insta that is even more unviable than the Nekotai insta will be enough to justify the change.
Regardless, the above is theory craft, and irrelevant to the main discussion.
I've already said my piece about giving Tahtetso a greenlock WITH CONSIDERATION of all the other changes you mentioned, and I am certainly not convinced any such change is something that will benefit the Tahtetso in a way that is reasonable for inter-class balance. If you want to add the above theory craft about Harmony into the picture, I can only say even more firmly, that more convincing arguments need to be brought up than what we have on the table. You might want to do that instead of going on tangents with Celina about Harmony that don't really help your arguments.
No idea if anyone cares but I actually am writing a little "State of the Monks" thing that I will post later. Some of these things are listed, and I added a couple things as a result of this thread.
As for arguments, I feel yours aren't very strong, to be honest. You brought up salve stacks, which I think are non-problematic without shatterankle, you brought up circumventing stance and parry, which is nice to have, and I don't mind attaching a momentum cost to kneecap, but I believe you overestimate its value to monks on the whole. You mention lots of ways to prone, but there are, with the exception of starkick and double kneecap, none that don't cost momentum, and those two involve rng (you can add double morphite into the picture, but that is even less reliable and also a lot easier for Nekotai). If you compare that to bleeding, vessels (more bleeding), hidden poisons, additional poisons, I'm not sure why you think there is a disparity in overall quality.