I do think SSC needs to be better about curing (or rather, not curing) hidden afflictions, unless you use diagnose.
This isn't an issue with SSC, this is an issue with shotgun cures. SSC gets ruined by hidden ice affs, for instance, because you can't just apply ice and have it fix whatever's wrong.
Dazzle was changed when bards got transfix, because it was changed in effect partly.
It used to be power to transfix a target.
@Nyana SSC is able to handle hidden affs because it needed to compete with automated systems. I can tell my system I have an aff an unknown aff and to go head and use that cure. I can even tell it to use every cure. Certain aff sources are linked to certain affs, so I can assume those. SSC is not notably better than systems, but it has some advantages and some disadvantages.
Yes, I can do that, too. What I meant is that it can tell when you get afflictions you wouldn't otherwise be able to know about, without using diagnose.
Ok, here's exactly what I mean: https://pastebin.com/mxrsTu8v When blackout is given without any afflictions (not in the paste but tested immediately before), SSC cures with health/scroll/sparkleberry only. When an affliction is given under blackout, SSC "knows" that you need to diagnose, and then cures the right afflictions. Were I coding my own system, I could make it diagnose on every blackout, but I wouldn't be able to do what SSC does here.
So I was just playing with ideas and flavor for Celestines. These are just ideas, building blocks to work off of so let me know what you all think...constructively please, no knicker twisting. The numbers and timing is something to look at later, these is just ideas.
Introduce a new ability HolyFire (or something better named), costs 1 or 2 Holy Light and engulfs the target in holy fire. Each tic of the flame will drain the targets mana, as well as if the target moves rooms it will drain mana for each room walked. Timed affliction.
Should the target be alight with HolyFire and Heretic 3p/Infidel 3p is cast, each tic of these will also drain additional mana.
Active drains from the Celestine such as Amissio will cause the flame to tic.
Alter Absolve power costs dependent on Heretic level. Heretic will drop Absolve to 5p, Infidel will drop it to 3p. Those under an Inquisition will be 0p. Still requires 50% mana.
HolyFire - 1/2 Holy Light
Heretic - 3p
Infidel - 3p
Inquisition - 6p
So should a Celestine take this route, it would cost them 12p + 2 HolyLight.
Or alternatively, should Heretic route not be favorable to link to, could divorce from that and make HolyFire something stand alone.
I was also thinking, as well for Nihilists, that the afflictions the angel delivers should always be two, perhaps once you receive an archangel/demon, and wrath be something different. But that is for another day or today.
I like the idea of adding in another holy light thing to help with mana drains, almost sounds like bruising but mana instead of health. Other things sound like we're on the same track, so I'd like to talk more about how HolyFire would operate more. Are we limiting to Amissio making it proc, or any mana drain? If the Amissio route, could make the drain increasingly stronger with each consecutive use. Amissio as it is is just a really bad mana drain, so giving it a ramp mechanic might work well, as long as the ramp isn't too insane.
I like the idea of adding in another holy light thing to help with mana drains, almost sounds like bruising but mana instead of health. Other things sound like we're on the same track, so I'd like to talk more about how HolyFire would operate more. Are we limiting to Amissio making it proc, or any mana drain? If the Amissio route, could make the drain increasingly stronger with each consecutive use. Amissio as it is is just a really bad mana drain, so giving it a ramp mechanic might work well, as long as the ramp isn't too insane.
Well I was originally going to post any drains from any source or person, but thought that may be a little overkill so I thought I would tone it down and just make Amissio, depending on what numbers get brought up with the various tics of course it should be enough without making it too strong in a group scenario but also allowing the Celestine to add pressure.
If it turned out to be too weak, I was also pondering adding another vital alongside the mana drain that HolyFire would cause to help with a Celestine's 1v1 pressure a little like how a dreambeast/blade works where it drains some from each vital, HolyFire could add that.
Well I have done a LITTLE testing, though I will need some confirmation from @Orael because the timing and numbers seem to change a little from test to test, and the timing is thrown off when you hit with Infidel while Heretic is going.
Currently Heretic and Infidel tic every 3 seconds, each costing 3p. Heretic afflicts with various mental afflictions, whilst Infidel's initial strike hits with around 7% health, then about 7% mana damage there after.
Heretic cast on its own tics six times, however if you cast Infidel during it, the tics change frequently to the point no tics happened, and then two did, so not sure whats going on there.
In regards to what HolyFire should do, if its on your target, it could add a mana drain to Heretic, perhaps 7% as well, and possibly boost Infidels to 10%. Please note I am terrible with numbers!
Amissio's drain is around 11%, Holy Fire could boost it to 15%?
Anyways, this is just another idea throwing session, feel free to be nice or suggest something else nicely.
I had an alternative idea on this HolyFire idea, divorcing it from Heretic/Infidel and focusing more on the archangel. Activate HolyFire on a target and for the next 30 seconds, any affliction you give from archangel or symbol evoke drains mana. Not sure the numbers I would suggest, but it would definitely be of benefit, in solo or group situations without being oppressive (in my opinion).
So I've been playing around with other ideas. This one plays off the archangel, and uses Holy Light. Though may require different ways to gather Holy Light due to having to use it more. The Light will begin to fade should the process not be continued or the target is no longer with the Celestine. Was thinking maybe 20ish seconds of being parted. Should the Holy Fire be ignited it would take longer, maybe 60 seconds.
The skill I was going to call Redemption. And inside that skill is five other subskills each a way to build the other. Each one would use a globe of Holy Light for a total of five to get to the end.
Firstly you CONSECRATE <target> - Prepare them with Holy Light. - Use a globe of Holy Light to prepare your target for Redemption. This will turn your angels eyes towards them and cause the angels attacks to begin to drain mana. Essentially allowing your angel to afflict and drain mana.
PENANCE - Have them kneel before the Light to ask for forgiveness. - Use the Light to force your target to kneel before you and pray. - Hits them with the kneel angel power (prone/stun) and drains mana.
PURGATION - Purge the unclean with Holy Fire. - Ignite the Holy Light into a burning flame to scour them. - Holy Fire will burn them, draining mana per tic, should they leave the room it will also drain but cause the flames to turn to embers. Should the Celestine re-enter their room, the fires will reignite.
CONDEMNATION - Condemn their souls to burn with Holy Fire. - The flames will now start to drain health as well as mana and make it harder for them to leave.
PURIFY - Purify their soul in the Holy Fires of Celestia. - With the assistance of Lady Elohora, purify them within the Light. - Stuns and drains a chunk of mana.
This just seemed like a fun idea, not sure if its viable or silly, but just throwing out ideas.
I personally like it, it's a flavor-filled kill method that reminds me of the Nihilist build-up but different enough so that it is unique. Nihilists need about 24 seconds, without bard speeding their demon, to get you to the three DemonMarks needed, then another 3s for balance after excruciate before using wrack. Those times are based around when the demon first attacks and then the 8 second cooldown between attacks.
So looking at this, what kind of balance timers we looking at? Each of the preparation four using 5s?
1) Consecrate - We looking at mana drain per affliction, or just a set drain when the angel hits, regardless with how many afflictions?
2) Penance - Seems really good even just on it's own, perhaps make these sub-abilities only usable once per target for a set time?
3) Purgation - I like it, same thing as Penance though for my concerns
4) Condemnation - I approve
5) Purify - Should work in the same vein as Excruciate for me personally. Perhaps do a 13% drain per each of these sub-abilities dealt before Purify? Would cause 52% total mana drain which is only .5% less than Excruciate and could have a similar stun timer to allow for the Celestine to capitalize on their resources spent. Granted the full Excruciate + Wrack combo is 10p with little room to regenerate power inbetween to sting deep with mantakaya, this would be using 5 Holy Light and 8p which in some regards I'd call fair, given how hard HolyLight is to come by without a generation method being put in that is more consistent.
I personally like it, it's a flavor-filled kill method that reminds me of the Nihilist build-up but different enough so that it is unique. Nihilists need about 24 seconds, without bard speeding their demon, to get you to the three DemonMarks needed, then another 3s for balance after excruciate before using wrack. Those times are based around when the demon first attacks and then the 8 second cooldown between attacks.
So looking at this, what kind of balance timers we looking at? Each of the preparation four using 5s? 5 seconds seems a little limiting, though if we were to shorten the balance times, could introduce a window for the next level to be cast as to not make it a spammable skill.
1) Consecrate - We looking at mana drain per affliction, or just a set drain when the angel hits, regardless with how many afflictions? Either would work I think.
2) Penance - Seems really good even just on it's own, perhaps make these sub-abilities only usable once per target for a set time? Could make it work like Night Shadows, where Holy Fire can only be placed on you by one Celestine.
3) Purgation - I like it, same thing as Penance though for my concerns As Above.
4) Condemnation - I approve
5) Purify - Should work in the same vein as Excruciate for me personally. Perhaps do a 13% drain per each of these sub-abilities dealt before Purify? Would cause 52% total mana drain which is only .5% less than Excruciate and could have a similar stun timer to allow for the Celestine to capitalize on their resources spent. Granted the full Excruciate + Wrack combo is 10p with little room to regenerate power inbetween to sting deep with mantakaya, this would be using 5 Holy Light and 8p which in some regards I'd call fair, given how hard HolyLight is to come by without a generation method being put in that is more consistent. I kind of got stuck on the effect of this one and ended up just throwing the stun/drain idea in because I couldn't think of anything different or unique into it.
As another idea, if the above was too indepth to create or code, could just make it something that you build, I guess kind of like how Wildarrane spirits used to work, levels of Holy Fire, each level hitting with a drain that gets bigger the more levels you build and when you have five you can use them up for a bomb of sorts. Only one person can guild holy fire at a time.
Anyways, just another idea to throw in the mix for consideration.
@Orael@Estarra Feel free to weigh in, you usually have great ideas!
I've been thinking about Celestialism and how its made up of a majority of skills that once you learn a higher skill that skill becomes dormant, eg. Cherubs, Deva, Pledge levels etc. So just pondering what thoughts would be on letting the Celestine summon other angelic companions alongside the Archangel.
One thought was kind of like wicca ents, having multiple angels follow, each one doing a different thing, be that healing or afflicting.
Another idea was more summoning them upon your enemy as you need them, such as one could summon a cherub upon their enemy, and they would afflict with say, Raziela afflictions alongside the Celestine for a set time.
Or thirdly, allow them to be called for various situations, such as summoning a cherub which could be used to either afflict or heal depending on your situation.
Could be what's meant by the third one but kinda reminded of XIV Summoners. Their summons are now basically more single target dps, more AOE dps, or more survivability.
Maybe Cherubs or Deva's give something that helps bashing and the other is for influencing? cause they're low down and nice to get early. Archangels for combat. Not sure for a fourth, something around the idea of travel/spreading the light far and wide?
So I've been playing around with ways to make nihilist less of an absolute relic for a while now and the direction I like most for thralls is basically what Saran laid out, give each of the four a specific use case. This both kills dead skills and could give nihi/cel a bit more baseline utility. Fiend/deva gets influencing/ego buffs, demon/angel gets bashing buffs/a chance to block denizen attacks?, archdemon is required for certain attacks and naturally double-hits. Imp/cherub is the one I'm least set on but one option I do like is giving it bond seek utility. Bond unite would be fun but probably overkill.
I like the option about making angelic/demonic companions more of a choice for different purposes too, but I wouldn't go so far as saying x is for bashing, y is for influence and so on. Ideally there isn't a mechanically 'best' choice for every purpose, because that's just not as interesting a decision to make.
I'd make all four companions able to invest however many afflictions your current skill in Celestialism/Nihilism allows, but give them a variety of active abilities that charge up over time and offer different flavour bonuses. Like once charged, you might be able to order the cherub/imp to give you a random minor boon that lasts a few minutes, or for a short time gives your bashing/influence attacks a chance of generating light/dark essence. The deva/fiend might confuse a mob for a few seconds and halve the health/ego damage they cause, or be ordered to pacify/divert a specific hostile creature. The angel/demon might be able to give you a number of shield/demonskin points that negate a percentage of incoming health/ego damage of a selected type until they are depleted, or maybe alter a percentage of incoming/outgoing damage to a type that matches your strongest for a few attacks. The archangel/archdemon might give your next influence/damage attack a huge critical bonus and give you a bonus effect if you do critical, or maybe cleanse you of a random affliction and splash damage to hostile mobs in the room if an affliction is removed.
Obviously those ideas might not be the best, and changing the companions to have different PvP uses in addition is good too, but I can't really speak to what would be good design for that arena.
I also like the idea of making angels/demons a bit more pet like - but maybe different from bonds/fae/etc in that they never leave your side. Instead, maybe they can read the soul of a player as long as they are in your room, and then use that bond to later peer into that player's location, sense their vitals, send a targetted room message, send them an item, etc.
Not sure if that all fits the themes you are going for though!
I do think that some sort of Overhaul is perhaps in order for some somewhat antiquated Guardians. Wicca (argue all you want that Wiccans aren't guardians, they are) hasn't really been touched since it was first made. Most of the changes have been reverted except for I guess Mushrooms, which are sort of cool?
I imagine the same is somewhat similar for other guardian classes perhaps, old mechanics that don't fit in with how freely other abilities are given or their power level.
Perhaps this thread needs to be considered as part of a wider discussion about the role of Guardians and what they should share in common, and what should be their unique thematic elements.
Since Institute seem secure in their position, building others up to where they are at the moment could be a good goal for painting a new veneer on some things.
Wiccans are not guardians, that is why they are listed as a different class/archetype. The correct phrasing should be archetype, but we will forever use class when we mean archetype.
Wiccans are not guardians, that is why they are listed as a different class/archetype. The correct phrasing should be archetype, but we will forever use class when we mean archetype.
Wiccans are Guardians in the same way that Druids are Mages, hence why they share the same flavour, primary mechanics, similar set of tertiary skills, role in combat, and class slot.
The Mage/meld rework impacted Druids, yet Druids, by your logic, aren't mages.
Wiccans are not guardians, that is why they are listed as a different class/archetype. The correct phrasing should be archetype, but we will forever use class when we mean archetype.
Wiccans are Guardians in the same way that Druids are Mages, hence why they share the same flavour, primary mechanics, similar set of tertiary skills, role in combat, and class slot.
The Mage/meld rework impacted Druids, yet Druids, by your logic, aren't mages.
It was specifically referred to as a melder revamp, not a mage one. 'chems, shamanism, etc, were not touched. Just melding.
Czixi, the Welkin murmurs, "Fight on, My Effervescent Sylph. I will be with you as you do."
Aian Lerit'r, Lead Schematicist exclaims to you, "A *paperwork* emergency, Chairman!
Has anything or is anything going to come of this?
I've only been back a short time but a lot of people have told me that Celestines (and guardians in general) are in a pretty poor spot.
I don't have a grip enough on the meta as a whole or understand some important specific areas of combat regarding other factions, but it DOES seem to me that Celestine's are severely lacking in 1) affliction stacking - especially when compared against almost any other class - and 2) instakill setups.
Comments
This isn't an issue with SSC, this is an issue with shotgun cures. SSC gets ruined by hidden ice affs, for instance, because you can't just apply ice and have it fix whatever's wrong.
Ok, here's exactly what I mean: https://pastebin.com/mxrsTu8v When blackout is given without any afflictions (not in the paste but tested immediately before), SSC cures with health/scroll/sparkleberry only. When an affliction is given under blackout, SSC "knows" that you need to diagnose, and then cures the right afflictions. Were I coding my own system, I could make it diagnose on every blackout, but I wouldn't be able to do what SSC does here.
<a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.lusternia.com/banner/minkahmet.jpg">https://www.lusternia.com/banner/minkahmet.jpg</a>If it turned out to be too weak, I was also pondering adding another vital alongside the mana drain that HolyFire would cause to help with a Celestine's 1v1 pressure a little like how a dreambeast/blade works where it drains some from each vital, HolyFire could add that.
Well I have done a LITTLE testing, though I will need some confirmation from @Orael because the timing and numbers seem to change a little from test to test, and the timing is thrown off when you hit with Infidel while Heretic is going.
Currently Heretic and Infidel tic every 3 seconds, each costing 3p. Heretic afflicts with various mental afflictions, whilst Infidel's initial strike hits with around 7% health, then about 7% mana damage there after.
Heretic cast on its own tics six times, however if you cast Infidel during it, the tics change frequently to the point no tics happened, and then two did, so not sure whats going on there.
In regards to what HolyFire should do, if its on your target, it could add a mana drain to Heretic, perhaps 7% as well, and possibly boost Infidels to 10%. Please note I am terrible with numbers!
Amissio's drain is around 11%, Holy Fire could boost it to 15%?
Anyways, this is just another idea throwing session, feel free to be nice or suggest something else nicely.
The skill I was going to call Redemption. And inside that skill is five other subskills each a way to build the other. Each one would use a globe of Holy Light for a total of five to get to the end.
Firstly you CONSECRATE <target> - Prepare them with Holy Light. - Use a globe of Holy Light to prepare your target for Redemption. This will turn your angels eyes towards them and cause the angels attacks to begin to drain mana. Essentially allowing your angel to afflict and drain mana.
PENANCE - Have them kneel before the Light to ask for forgiveness. - Use the Light to force your target to kneel before you and pray. - Hits them with the kneel angel power (prone/stun) and drains mana.
PURGATION - Purge the unclean with Holy Fire. - Ignite the Holy Light into a burning flame to scour them. - Holy Fire will burn them, draining mana per tic, should they leave the room it will also drain but cause the flames to turn to embers. Should the Celestine re-enter their room, the fires will reignite.
CONDEMNATION - Condemn their souls to burn with Holy Fire. - The flames will now start to drain health as well as mana and make it harder for them to leave.
PURIFY - Purify their soul in the Holy Fires of Celestia. - With the assistance of Lady Elohora, purify them within the Light. - Stuns and drains a chunk of mana.
This just seemed like a fun idea, not sure if its viable or silly, but just throwing out ideas.
So looking at this, what kind of balance timers we looking at? Each of the preparation four using 5s?
1) Consecrate - We looking at mana drain per affliction, or just a set drain when the angel hits, regardless with how many afflictions?
2) Penance - Seems really good even just on it's own, perhaps make these sub-abilities only usable once per target for a set time?
3) Purgation - I like it, same thing as Penance though for my concerns
4) Condemnation - I approve
5) Purify - Should work in the same vein as Excruciate for me personally. Perhaps do a 13% drain per each of these sub-abilities dealt before Purify? Would cause 52% total mana drain which is only .5% less than Excruciate and could have a similar stun timer to allow for the Celestine to capitalize on their resources spent. Granted the full Excruciate + Wrack combo is 10p with little room to regenerate power inbetween to sting deep with mantakaya, this would be using 5 Holy Light and 8p which in some regards I'd call fair, given how hard HolyLight is to come by without a generation method being put in that is more consistent.
Anyways, just another idea to throw in the mix for consideration.
@Orael @Estarra Feel free to weigh in, you usually have great ideas!
One thought was kind of like wicca ents, having multiple angels follow, each one doing a different thing, be that healing or afflicting.
Another idea was more summoning them upon your enemy as you need them, such as one could summon a cherub upon their enemy, and they would afflict with say, Raziela afflictions alongside the Celestine for a set time.
Or thirdly, allow them to be called for various situations, such as summoning a cherub which could be used to either afflict or heal depending on your situation.
Idea's and thoughts welcome!
Maybe Cherubs or Deva's give something that helps bashing and the other is for influencing? cause they're low down and nice to get early.
Archangels for combat. Not sure for a fourth, something around the idea of travel/spreading the light far and wide?
I'd make all four companions able to invest however many afflictions your current skill in Celestialism/Nihilism allows, but give them a variety of active abilities that charge up over time and offer different flavour bonuses. Like once charged, you might be able to order the cherub/imp to give you a random minor boon that lasts a few minutes, or for a short time gives your bashing/influence attacks a chance of generating light/dark essence. The deva/fiend might confuse a mob for a few seconds and halve the health/ego damage they cause, or be ordered to pacify/divert a specific hostile creature. The angel/demon might be able to give you a number of shield/demonskin points that negate a percentage of incoming health/ego damage of a selected type until they are depleted, or maybe alter a percentage of incoming/outgoing damage to a type that matches your strongest for a few attacks. The archangel/archdemon might give your next influence/damage attack a huge critical bonus and give you a bonus effect if you do critical, or maybe cleanse you of a random affliction and splash damage to hostile mobs in the room if an affliction is removed.
Obviously those ideas might not be the best, and changing the companions to have different PvP uses in addition is good too, but I can't really speak to what would be good design for that arena.
I also like the idea of making angels/demons a bit more pet like - but maybe different from bonds/fae/etc in that they never leave your side. Instead, maybe they can read the soul of a player as long as they are in your room, and then use that bond to later peer into that player's location, sense their vitals, send a targetted room message, send them an item, etc.
Not sure if that all fits the themes you are going for though!
I imagine the same is somewhat similar for other guardian classes perhaps, old mechanics that don't fit in with how freely other abilities are given or their power level.
Perhaps this thread needs to be considered as part of a wider discussion about the role of Guardians and what they should share in common, and what should be their unique thematic elements.
Since Institute seem secure in their position, building others up to where they are at the moment could be a good goal for painting a new veneer on some things.
Nihilists to a lesser extent.
Institute not at all.
Illuminati need some changes.
Wiccans are not guardians, that is why they are listed as a different class/archetype. The correct phrasing should be archetype, but we will forever use class when we mean archetype.
The Mage/meld rework impacted Druids, yet Druids, by your logic, aren't mages.
Czixi, the Welkin murmurs, "Fight on, My Effervescent Sylph. I will be with you as you do."
Aian Lerit'r, Lead Schematicist exclaims to you, "A *paperwork* emergency, Chairman!
I've only been back a short time but a lot of people have told me that Celestines (and guardians in general) are in a pretty poor spot.
I don't have a grip enough on the meta as a whole or understand some important specific areas of combat regarding other factions, but it DOES seem to me that Celestine's are severely lacking in 1) affliction stacking - especially when compared against almost any other class - and 2) instakill setups.