Future Report: Celestine

Makai

Since it got brought up in the Meld Skills review, let's go ahead and bring the conversation here and start plotting what we'd like to request when the new reporting system opens up? I think workshopping it could be handy before the system happens.

I've seen suggestions before to just mirror demonmarks and call them something else, but it was argued they didn't want a reskinned version of it. I think it would improve Celestine combat quite a bit and make them more than just people who use Sacraments more than actual Celestialism...

IF making a reskin isn't to taste, what about something to coincide with the Heretic and Infidel abilities? Nihilists have Wrack and can be setup using excruciate almost reliably (3 or more marks) so what if we changed Absolve to have two methods of firing?

Absolve Method 1 - Target is below 50% mana, 8 power cost (as is right now)
Absolve Method 2 - You have marked a target as a Heretic, 70% mana and 4p

So the second method would require Heretic (3p), waiting for window to Infidel (3p), waiting for window to Absolve (4p) and would need the 70% or less reserves. Would make it fairly consistent, costly, and not something that is done in ridiculous build up. Just mostly want to get a conversation started, even if my ideas are crap, let's do this!

Kreon

I know someone made a suggestion about Inquisition being changed to help with mana kill route but don't know who. I tried getting ideas together but with me being in the military and assigned overseas it's been put off a lot

Makai

We've got plenty of time to brainstorm, suggest, and build up an idea so there's no need to feel rushed. I like Inquisition actually helping as well, because as it stands, I don't really like it. Yes stripping all defenses except vitae is nice, but it fuels damage kills more than anything and requires some -serious- power dumping for something that isn't guaranteed to kill.

Minkahmet

Well, I wasn't hoping to make copycat versions of demon marks honestly.  An idea I had in my head was definitely to do something more with the heretical aura to assist with the mana drain there. Albeit, it's still just a thought in my head of how to increase the amounts of mana per aura stage on the target and it could definitely tie into absolve method two. The current method is completely unattainable to compete with many mid-tiered to top-tiered combatants. Granted its highly dated, as it remains unchanged since its conception and that was long before the several overhauls Lusternia went through.

Makai

I totally get not wanting a copycat version, only wanted to state it would be a healthy addition to the class' combat potential. Though I think we're on a shared idea of tying in Heretic and Infidel, and I think it would totally suit the class -more- than making a reskin. So here's my idea:

Heretic (3p) - Mark a target as a heretic yatty yatta flavor text. Make the random affliction a random spiritual affliction.

Infidel (3p) - Mark a target as an infidel flavor text. Replace the damage tick to do mana drain per spiritual affliction.

That way Sacraments can combo with Cantors and Celestines can still have multiple kill methods. Incentivizes Tarot further, but Healing hasn't been superb for quite a while.

Nelras

I think that mana drain per spiritual affliction would be something that needs to be balanced very carefully to ensure that it is valid for the Celestine without being too strong if a Cantor is present.

Consider that manabarbs is a spiritual affliction and that the Cantor would likely also have an octave if going for that strategy. Suddenly you are doing damage and mana every tick, tied to something that cannot be cured. One possible solution would be to have a pool of afflictions it can give/trigger from rather than all spiritual afflictions.

Minkahmet

Heretic does not need "a" spiritual affliction. It needs a couple of random spiritual afflictions to provide an actual offense and it would work for all three terts to be updated post overhaul+autocuring. Perhaps 2 random spiritual every 1s that pass before the aura opens for infidel, or even 1 random spiritual affliction every 1s. To which, I like your suggestion for infidel at that point. That way, rather than incentivizing tarot, you can spread the love to Celestine healer, giving them some sort of offense to work into their route.  From my gauging of Tarot, it's fine as it is so far. The work needs to spread into healing, and this method will help Celestine healing a bit better than it currently stands.

Makai

I'm with Nelras, it would have to be either a set number per affliction, say like 200 (pure example number) mana drained per spiritual affliction, or a small percentage such as 7.5%. Because since we agree the smallest scale combat we'll really see is 2v2, this would allow for an ally to build up spiritual affs to fast track you to Heretic Absolve. Alternatively, even if this was in say...six people working together, you'd -still- need to wait for Heretic to Absolve so it works out in this idea. Either they're going to be riddled with steam cures or already be at the 50% threshold anyway, so Absolve becomes do-able in small scale and large groups.

Another thing to table, the angel (and by association Nihilist demon). Considering every Guardian spec (and Wiccan) has multiple entities that all fire for multiple effects, the angel/demon are lacking. One affliction every 8 seconds just isn't really going to cut it. I left it at base because yes you can expend 10 power to make the next ten attacks do two afflictions, but that doesn't really fix the issue either.  Rather than adding more entities to control, I'd like to have the Angel/Demon do two invested powers per balance and keep it at the 8 seconds, offsetting it turning the 10p into an 'enrage' mode that the skill name kind of points at already, which would make it from 8 seconds to 4-5 seconds instead for the next ten attacks. I'd like to state that this would not stack with the bard song power respective to their org. One of those "only use highest buff" types to their speed.

EDIT: Fixed a mistake where I had 'five' attacks instead of 'ten'.

Minkahmet

Makai said:

I'm with Nelras, it would have to be either a set number per affliction, say like 200 (pure example number) mana drained per spiritual affliction, or a small percentage such as 7.5%. Because since we agree the smallest scale combat we'll really see is 2v2, this would allow for an ally to build up spiritual affs to fast track you to Heretic Absolve. Alternatively, even if this was in say...six people working together, you'd -still- need to wait for Heretic to Absolve so it works out in this idea. Either they're going to be riddled with steam cures or already be at the 50% threshold anyway, so Absolve becomes do-able in small scale and large groups.

Another thing to table, the angel (and by association Nihilist demon). Considering every Guardian spec (and Wiccan) has multiple entities that all fire for multiple effects, the angel/demon are lacking. One affliction every 8 seconds just isn't really going to cut it. I left it at base because yes you can expend 10 power to make the next five attacks do two afflictions, but that doesn't really fix the issue either.  Rather than adding more entities to control, I'd like to have the Angel/Demon do two invested powers per balance and keep it at the 8 seconds, offsetting it turning the 10p into an 'enrage' mode that the skill name kind of points at already, which would make it from 8 seconds to 4-5 seconds instead for the next five attacks. I'd like to state that this would not stack with the bard song power respective to their org. One of those "only use highest buff" types to their speed.

I agree with Nelras there as well simply put.  Though Celestine and Nihilists operate completely different than the other guardian classes. These two are combo classes and its especially true for Celestine as its always been the case and timing is crucial to even play Celestine properly. Very few people in its history ever played it correctly. The majority play Celestine as a set and forget mech in which is completely incorrect on how to use it. Nonetheless, why would a Nihilist/Celestine spend 10p for 5 double attacks?

Makai

Because it was a mismemory, I thought it was for 5 attacks, it's 10 attacks. Going to edit my post to reflect this!

Keegan

I mean, Celestine is pretty boss between Judgement/ Inquisition/ HolyBeing/ Hallowedground, etc.

The best thing you could do for both of them is to remove the 1p per double move and make angel/demon a free balance action.

Edit: The heretic absolve sound ridiculous just an aside.

Auriella

I've played Celestine on and off for a while, and can agree that much of its offense is largely outdated. The majority of the Celestialism skillset is made up of passive abilities that are unusable that just give access to something.  10p for a limited about of attacks whilst is helpful, having to choose between hindrance or mana drain is extremely limiting especially when you are already limited by how many to hit with. So I definitely think that needs looking at, or just removing the 10p and keep it at two per attack.

Our active mana drain Amissio, is also weaker compared to all other mana draining abilities, though this could be offset by introducing other means.

I wouldn't mind seeing perhaps an expansion on the Holy Light theme, I think that has some nice flare and aesthetics that could work with a new path of offense. Using/attacking with holy light in various ways to assist with afflictions/mana drain.

Makai

Speaking of the globes of holy light, that -really- needs a consistent method of generation that isn't rezzing someone or killing a city enemy....or throwing up RighteousArms and hitting yourself with a zombie skin. Maybe let things like Honour aura or Hallowed Ground powers giving a chance to give a globe of Holy Light when it cures or heals an ally other than yourself?

Maligorn

Makai said:

Speaking of the globes of holy light, that -really- needs a consistent method of generation that isn't rezzing someone or killing a city enemy....or throwing up RighteousArms and hitting yourself with a zombie skin. Maybe let things like Honour aura or Hallowed Ground powers giving a chance to give a globe of Holy Light when it cures or heals an ally other than yourself?

Can you explain why they -really- need it?

Minkahmet

redo..

Minkahmet

Keegan said:

I mean, Celestine is pretty boss between Judgement/ Inquisition/ HolyBeing/ Hallowedground, etc.

The best thing you could do for both of them is to remove the 1p per double move and make angel/demon a free balance action.

Edit: The heretic absolve sound ridiculous just an aside.

Maybe as its just a pov. Though, it can be something like that as a forked route, or maybe increase amissio drains? The mana regen/heals outpaces amissio in its current state that you can't get someone down past 92% even with the current set of affs that doesn't seem to support or work in synergy with a damage nor a mana drain route at all. No to mention the vitals pools are way too high imo.

Minkahmet

Makai said:

Speaking of the globes of holy light, that -really- needs a consistent method of generation that isn't rezzing someone or killing a city enemy....or throwing up RighteousArms and hitting yourself with a zombie skin. Maybe let things like Honour aura or Hallowed Ground powers giving a chance to give a globe of Holy Light when it cures or heals an ally other than yourself?

This isn't really -too- much of a concern honestly. However, I don't like the fact of spending nearly two hours hitting yourself with a zombie costume on and be extremely lucky that you get even 1 or 3 globes of generated holy light. Just saying. So if anything, the proc rate when using that method will need a boost, otherwise it's not really a pressing matter at this time.

Makai

Because Celestines have a few skills that require these globes of holy light, and when their only method of generating them is obnoxious, it makes it more difficult than it needs be. No other skillset has this level of entry cost to be able to use the skills. It would be like Researchers all of a sudden being unable to do their combo gems because the proc of the Spheres blessing you with the ability to merge didn't happen.

Maligorn

Makai said:

Because Celestines have a few skills that require these globes of holy light, and when their only method of generating them is obnoxious, it makes it more difficult than it needs be. No other skillset has this level of entry cost to be able to use the skills. It would be like Researchers all of a sudden being unable to do their combo gems because the proc of the Spheres blessing you with the ability to merge didn't happen.

You could think of it this way, but holy light was tacked on by an admin a long time ago when Celestines didn't even really need the mechanic. To the uninformed eye it might seem like the things surrounding holy light and its generation/use are unwieldy, but holy light was meant to be a cherry on top of the Celestine kit, a reward for doing very specific things, not an integral and always available part of it.

Minkahmet

Maligorn said:

Makai said:

Because Celestines have a few skills that require these globes of holy light, and when their only method of generating them is obnoxious, it makes it more difficult than it needs be. No other skillset has this level of entry cost to be able to use the skills. It would be like Researchers all of a sudden being unable to do their combo gems because the proc of the Spheres blessing you with the ability to merge didn't happen.

You could think of it this way, but holy light was tacked on by an admin a long time ago when Celestines didn't even really need the mechanic. To the uninformed eye it might seem like the things surrounding holy light and its generation/use are unwieldy, but holy light was meant to be a cherry on top of the Celestine kit, a reward for doing very specific things, not an integral and always available part of it.

Exactly.

Auriella

A simple addition to the Holy Light generation talk, may be to allow a construct to allow a Celestine to collect a single globe once a weave or perhaps even regen one every dawn.

Could always bring back Dazzle as well.

Minkahmet

Auriella said:

A simple addition to the Holy Light generation talk, may be to allow a construct to allow a Celestine to collect a single globe once a weave or perhaps even regen one every dawn.

Could always bring back Dazzle as well.

Huh, what is this dazzle? I have not ever heard of that one unless you meant wonderbrazier's dazzle at the time?

Auriella

Sacraments used to have a skill called Dazzle. It was exactly the same as Glamours Fascination but was taken away long ago because it was deemed too OP! Then they built bards and gave it to them. Go figure haha

AN SACRAMENTS DAZZLE is your proof

Nyana

Auriella said:

Sacraments used to have a skill called Dazzle. It was exactly the same as Glamours Fascination but was taken away long ago because it was deemed too OP! Then they built bards and gave it to them. Go figure haha

AN SACRAMENTS DAZZLE is your proof

Was it though, in sacraments? Cause glamours is not that great a skillset for bards. Depends on what the other skills are and how it fits together.

Auriella

Yes it was in Sacraments, and I meant AB SACRAMENTS so Minkahmet could see the AB. And yes it was removed because it was deemed too strong back in its day. 

Nyana

Auriella said:

Yes it was in Sacraments, and I meant AB SACRAMENTS so Minkahmet could see the AB. And yes it was removed because it was deemed too strong back in its day. 

I meant, was it OP, in Sacraments? The fact that it was put in glamours doesn't mean it wasn't. I was just wondering what the reasoning was.  

Auriella

Well back when it was used, there was no mmf and no ssc, so it was considered very strong alongside and angels powers which currently is now not as good either due to SSC. But if I were being honest now, I don’t believe it would be nowadays with the current SSC and curing possible. But that is just my opinion. 

Nyana

Auriella said:

Well back when it was used, there was no mmf and no ssc, so it was considered very strong alongside and angels powers which currently is now not as good either due to SSC. But if I were being honest now, I don’t believe it would be nowadays with the current SSC and curing possible. But that is just my opinion. 

Ah, ok. Honestly I don't have an opinion about it, I don't know enough about Sacraments. I do think SSC needs to be better about curing (or rather, not curing) hidden afflictions, unless you use diagnose. But anyway, I'll stop distracting from the celestines discussion.

Kar

I dunno why SSC doesn't auto-add for secondary affliction messages. And every IRE game should have gmcp.Combat. Message collection is the absolute worst.

Malayn

Dazzle was changed when bards got transfix, because it was changed in effect partly.

It used to be power to transfix a target. 

@Nyana
SSC is able to handle hidden affs because it needed to compete with automated systems. I can tell my system I have an aff an unknown aff and to go head and use that cure. I can even tell it to use every cure. Certain aff sources are linked to certain affs, so I can assume those.  SSC is not notably better than systems, but it has some advantages and some disadvantages. 

Maligorn

Funnily enough, Dazzle is probably too strong now at this juncture more than it ever was before, given that upkeeping sixthsense is actually something that has some risk these days, since it shares a bal with dust. I wouldn't want to see it come back.