Celestines are stuck in a rut when it comes to mana drain unlike their Nihilist counterparts who are able to place marks and drain upwards to 6k mana, but that's a conversation for another thread.
This is more a symptom of Celestines being outdated and nobody lobbying for them to be upgraded to these newer times (probably because most people feel like they're "okay", even though solo absolve is probably not possible for the average opponent.
The solution isn't "buff Aquamancers for Celestines", ever. It should be "buff Celestines for Celestines", if you can create a convincing-enough argument.
That's all I'll say on that because I know you want to disengage from talking about it in this thread.
Very true but either way it's up to the other players who play Aqua what they want in matters of Mana drain, Ego drain, or have it do something else completely.
- Eq/bal penalties should be lower or nonexistent. Cloning each thing to be similar strikes me as bad. For comparison: Burns reduced fire resist, effected the eq/bal, and set up an ice stack. Old chills caused shivering to throw eq. Frozen increased cold damage taken, increased balance losses from active sources too (winding, etc includes). Would rather them see a bit more tie in to their strategies. Eq/bal loss inhibits offense, we should not make that a passive in every single place.
- Locking to different cures creates additional balance issues. Steam cures with Hallifax, which already uses a steam based level aff. Same for... basically everyone. If the goal is to make aff based kills faster, on the premise that almost all combat is in groups, we will do that. It will also lower the bar for skill, especially with AC being the main point right now. I'd rather see things move off the same cure, so you can try to keep up with 2 aff stacks (coils / timewarp), instead of being bogged.
- Cure balance times need to be accounted for in cure amounts. If it is a 2s cure, it should cure more than a 1.5s cure. You will have stacking either way, but at least it gives the illusion of balancing the levels out.
I just read over everything but I may have missed some questions or concerns. If I did, just ask again please and I'll answer it later.
We can take into consideration physical damage and make adjustments.
All of this will be handled by auto-curing and you'll be able to specify different priority levels. I believe burns is already set up this way, but I may be wrong. If I'm wrong, then it'll be changed before going live.
Unleash is going to be adjusted from what it is now. The reason for the full-cure is to prevent multiple mages just spamming it (though we may also limit to one going at a time). The idea being that at high affliction level would be enough to one-shot someone (with time to still react/get-away). The other idea I had was to keep the channel time but boost the scaling depending on bonded mages (meaning you need less stacking for maximum effect). That may be more useful in groups, but also more potent.
Yes, indoors effect of Northwind will be emulated.
Yes, you'll require a meld to use effects.
I may be leaning towards ego-drain with Bubble, but I'm still wishy-washy as there are manakills in Celest and a goal is synergy.
The intent of dilute is the next vitals sip is affected and increased/decreased depending on ally/enemy status. I've made that more clear
In regards to the stacking affs for each org. They will all be curable by some balance. I'm leaning towards making chills something unique and leaving the fire/shivering/frozen stuff in place and separate from chills. If we go that way, then it'll be like the other ones that all reduce bal/eq and reduce resistance to cold damage. With that in mind, only pyrotoxin would contribute to a mages offense and to be honest, I'm not too terribly concerned about pyrotoxin increasing burns at the moment. It's always done so and it's not something people tend to rely on in fights. I think in general, you're giving up too much and not getting enough in return by doing so. I do think we'll need to change it at some point (before people jump on me), but I don't think it's something that needs to happen right now. I think we're better off forging ahead with the changes and adjusting pyrotoxin to something that makes sense after we've settled things in a bit rather than put energy into changing it right now.
And yes, we'll take into consideration cure times and how much something is cured.
As far as different cures go, as noted before, one of the major goals was synergy. A direct result of synergy is to be able to kill faster. I don't think it dumbs down or makes combat easier, I think it makes things more tactical, both offensively and defensively.
Celestines are stuck in a rut when it comes to mana drain unlike their Nihilist counterparts who are able to place marks and drain upwards to 6k mana, but that's a conversation for another thread.
Is there any way you could post a log of a Nihilist placing marks and draining 6k mana solo?
Her voice firm and commanding, Terentia, the Even Bladed says to you, "You have kept your oath to Me, Parhelion. You have sworn to maintain Justice in these troubled times."
Yet if a boon be granted me, unworthy as I am, let it be for a steady hand with a clear eye and a fury most inflaming.
I'm leaning towards making chills something unique and leaving the fire/shivering/frozen stuff in place and separate from chills. If we go that way, then it'll be like the other ones that all reduce bal/eq and reduce resistance to cold damage.
Frostbite? That keeps preserve intact. I'm not sure what cure aqua would be on.
Given that needlerain's still listed as waterwalk/breath stripping, is the plan to keep current deluge in some form? It's not listed anywhere in aqua that I can see.
@Choros You can find the thread for Magnagora Synergy Shango made, I posted a few logs. The reason why they can is because each demonmark drains 17.5% max mana when you cast excruciate. So 3 marks * 17.5% = 52.5% of max mana drained. This -also- is around a 4 second stun, without Tear of Shallah, which is long enough to gain balance to Wrack with.
@Orael Thank you for the clarifications, that makes it a tiny bit less terrifying, and I'd like to argue for egodrain on Bubble over manadrain. Manadrain isn't really a Celest synergy, as only the Celestines have a way to make use of it. Egodrain synergizes with the Aquamancers and Cantors, and technically the Tahtetso that can use the forgotten Harmony insta that requires each vital to be drained to a threshold. Also, if manadrain becomes the effect then Aquameld will be the undisputed best meld for whatever alliance Celest is in, simply because of that drain.
Can we please avoid taking away what insta kills our mages currently have? Sometimes that really is the only recourse for a mage to pull off and given it's a channeled action, they pull it off then they earned it (or had a lot of help to secure a kill that team would not have otherwise managed, and staring at each other over a disabled person till they slip in enough cures to get up because you have no kill method sucks for everyone involved)
As I put in the other thread, melders are getting two viable kill methods in primary alone, then tertiaries still counting for something. I think we'll be okay with Unleash becoming the channeled AoE killer and Preserve/Fleshstone/Miasma etc will be their single target.
Yeah, deluge would still be intact, but I meant to just include it as the natural melded state.
One of my goals here was to simplify the melding stuff. For instance, Geos can just 'taint' everything and BT can just forest everything. They don't need to 'defoliate' or 'infest' like they would previously. Another example is that illusory terrain will no longer block druid melds from being broken (saplings will still be used). I was sticking deluge in that list by just making it the typical state. I didn't think there was really a situation where an Aqua wouldn't want things to be deluged.
No, I don't think we should be keeping chasm as it is. I think this is an all or nothing situation - either everyone gets a channeled insta-kill or nobody does.
Put a channeled IK in combat. It'll be great. 15s, messages at 0/5/10.
If permadeluge is going to be the name of the game for aquamelds, could the way it interacts with pits get an eyeing? I'd also like to personally bitch about how it works with ghost but that's pretty separate.
I wanna reiterate previous questions about aqua/geo banishes - are they just on the chopping block? They're top tier utility and they're sort of already mirrored.
Actually, how would illusory terrain/saplings work in this? Would it just block the channeled break from other melders? Given how much breaking a node is slowed down in general, would it make sense to just cut it entirely?
Currently a druid meld can have saplings and illusory terrain working together, perhaps if that isn't intended we make it so saplings stop illusory terrain from being cast?
If permadeluge is going to be the name of the game for aquamelds, could the way it interacts with pits get an eyeing? I'd also like to personally bitch about how it works with ghost but that's pretty separate.
I'm in agreement here, can we have pits not possible at all in a melded/node area?
Aside the onslaught of information here, I just want to iterate how excited I am looking forward at all these changes. I think scarab is going to need tweaking from its current values, but overall this has me hyped.
I think having pits not being possible in melds would be too much of a nerf to pits. I'd rather just allow pits in deluge than remove them from all melds.
As far as terrain/saplings - I coded it so terrain just doesn't stop changing forest nature, but saplings do.
Actually, apologies if this was already covered but it seems basic and I'm not certain about it, so. How's terrain type working? Can you only raise a node after converting to your type? Do adjacents/paths only have effects tick if they're terrained right(tainted in geo, ferinstance)? I was kind of imagining that node raising and tainting would be synonymous, like if you raised a node then that room would become the terrain of choice. If not, how would reterraining adjacent rooms work? Plan's that only nodes are breakable, but.
Current set up is you change the nature to what you want, then meld to raise the node. Any rooms in between connecting nodes will automatically change nature to the meld type. Losing a connection just leaves the terrain.
If there is another node or another connection blocking your connection, then the connection doesn't happen and nothing changes. If the blocking stuff is removed, the connection will then form.
Breaking is just a channeled action to change the nature to your type. Killing the melder/elemental doesn't change the nature but removes the node. We could make it trueground it I suppose but at the moment it just leaves it.
On the topic, could we have terrain that isn't in matching org territory periodically wipe or slowly fade off, so that not only pvp areas but also vast swathes of otherwise uncontested land aren't constantly terrained one way or another?
I like this suggestion, perhaps if an area isn't melded when a month changes over, it will revert to natural terrain? Resets most of everything and then requires setup for PvP instead of just entering a timequake and, "Hey look, our terrain is still here!"
Probably the same way still, as nothing is really changing on how you terrain things. You still have to terrain a spot to put a node (melding) so it should remain the same.
Illusionary terrain only lasts an hour currently so that functionality is already there.
I think at this point, we need to
Replace the hide exits effect (with the current Mirage effect maybe?)
Come up with functionality for whirl/twirl/raise staff/cudgel
Discuss keeping the fleshstone/bubble effects?
I'll work on ideas for the first two - but I'd like to see more discussion on bubble/fleshstone and keeping those effects. Again, it's all or nothing so if we decide to keep them, then Aero/Pyro/Druids would need similar effects. Is that something people would genuinely like to see come back. I think if we did have them, being in that state would not allow you to stop breaking.
Other than that, I think we're in pretty good shape and I'll get started on this when I return from my vacation. Thanks for all the input so far, there's been some good things brought up.
I feel like melders should have at least some skills they can use without their meld - particularly mages on Faethorn. I really enjoy having a 3p scissorflip that I can use anywhere as an Aeromancer, so I'll freely admit being selfish here, but I'd really like to not be completely useless on Faethorn - and let's not kid ourselves and pretend Maeve is going to be downed anytime soon and for any reasonable length of time. You know, discounting tertiary/secondary skill usage...
I feel like melders should have at least some skills they can use without their meld - particularly mages on Faethorn. I really enjoy having a 3p scissorflip that I can use anywhere as an Aeromancer, so I'll freely admit being selfish here, but I'd really like to not be completely useless on Faethorn - and let's not kid ourselves and pretend Maeve is going to be downed anytime soon and for any reasonable length of time. You know, discounting tertiary/secondary skill usage...
Guessing this would also be the same case for our elemental planes?
I feel like melders should have at least some skills they can use without their meld - particularly mages on Faethorn. I really enjoy having a 3p scissorflip that I can use anywhere as an Aeromancer, so I'll freely admit being selfish here, but I'd really like to not be completely useless on Faethorn - and let's not kid ourselves and pretend Maeve is going to be downed anytime soon and for any reasonable length of time. You know, discounting tertiary/secondary skill usage...
Guessing this would also be the same case for our elemental planes?
I don't really make due consideration for elemental, because it's just such a poor place to fight - no real objectives, flux shenanigans, etc. The only time elemental comes close to mattering is after a successful smob raid - which admittedly is important to consider, but very rare and they quickly fall into irrelevance shortly afterwards, even if the smob-raiders are camping elemental hard for a few hours.
Faethorn, EthSeren and EthGlom are far more possible to have fights, which is why I'm lobbying for some mage power there (and wherever else there isn't a meld of your own type in place, i.e. if I'm just chilling in a Hartstone or Geomancer meld (so this would help druids too if they got some non-meld primary skill powers)).
What is the downside (other than 'muh rp') to making everywhere terrain-able? Is that something the code allows? Seems easier than coming up with special allowances.
Mainly because the natural source of your power should not be changeable to something else. Otherwise you'd have Tainted Ether Glom because of Avu raids and they would be far more deadly, its why he goes to God Realms, so he can meld.
Mainly because the natural source of your power should not be changeable to something else. Otherwise you'd have Tainted Ether Glom because of Avu raids and they would be far more deadly, its why he goes to God Realms, so he can meld.
First part is flavor, which it is an rp game, ok. Second part, I get it, but I dunno, is that different from someone melding Nil, etc? Like, is a player being a strong melder a reason for not having equal allowances in what is and isn't meldable in the first place?
Mostly, I'm against classes getting special toys. If bubble/fleshstone are allowed because mages don't have access to serpent, should druids not get something that is roughly equivalent to greatpent? The argument that 'Druids can serpent to hold onto node rooms longer' is not that different from 'Mages can expel+greatpent to hold onto node rooms longer', no?
(I'm a huuuuge fan of all orgs having access to exactly the same tools. I could finally get on board with Lusternian PvP then!)
Separate arguments. Maligorn wants abilities like Tempest or Northwind to not require a meld to activate, so that their Primary is still usable outside of a meld. I personally don't think anybody is going to argue for Liquid Form or Flesh Stone to remain as 'invulns', though they might. Though my statements about what he is after is made through my understanding of his request, rather than speaking for the man.
4: Change meld-wide scarab because that's actually insane. Two minutes plus of periodic uncurable anorexia/slitthroat for 2p as listed, seriously.
I figured you meant you wanted to mirror stuff across sides, like mag/cel, not across all six. If you do want to mirror absolutely everything across all six that's... I mean, it does make sense. It's just a touch boring.
I don't think changing exit hiding to mirage is a bad idea, but it's a moderate power jump moving from phantasms mirage to pyro mirage. What about a random 1aff cure for anyone with that meld primary?
Raise cudgel seems like it's at an alright point, but staff raises are pretty disparate. Maybe unify them to the current geo one, a smallish +damage in their native element? Whirl's probably fine just leaving as is, since a: everyone's got the same one and b: it's pretty dang insignificant. For twirl, what about adapting pyro's? Room wide damage hit and meld aff application.
Comments
- Eq/bal penalties should be lower or nonexistent. Cloning each thing to be similar strikes me as bad. For comparison: Burns reduced fire resist, effected the eq/bal, and set up an ice stack. Old chills caused shivering to throw eq. Frozen increased cold damage taken, increased balance losses from active sources too (winding, etc includes). Would rather them see a bit more tie in to their strategies. Eq/bal loss inhibits offense, we should not make that a passive in every single place.
- Locking to different cures creates additional balance issues. Steam cures with Hallifax, which already uses a steam based level aff. Same for... basically everyone. If the goal is to make aff based kills faster, on the premise that almost all combat is in groups, we will do that. It will also lower the bar for skill, especially with AC being the main point right now. I'd rather see things move off the same cure, so you can try to keep up with 2 aff stacks (coils / timewarp), instead of being bogged.
- Cure balance times need to be accounted for in cure amounts. If it is a 2s cure, it should cure more than a 1.5s cure. You will have stacking either way, but at least it gives the illusion of balancing the levels out.
- I like the general plan and direction though!
We can take into consideration physical damage and make adjustments.
All of this will be handled by auto-curing and you'll be able to specify different priority levels. I believe burns is already set up this way, but I may be wrong. If I'm wrong, then it'll be changed before going live.
Unleash is going to be adjusted from what it is now. The reason for the full-cure is to prevent multiple mages just spamming it (though we may also limit to one going at a time). The idea being that at high affliction level would be enough to one-shot someone (with time to still react/get-away). The other idea I had was to keep the channel time but boost the scaling depending on bonded mages (meaning you need less stacking for maximum effect). That may be more useful in groups, but also more potent.
Yes, indoors effect of Northwind will be emulated.
Yes, you'll require a meld to use effects.
I may be leaning towards ego-drain with Bubble, but I'm still wishy-washy as there are manakills in Celest and a goal is synergy.
The intent of dilute is the next vitals sip is affected and increased/decreased depending on ally/enemy status. I've made that more clear
In regards to the stacking affs for each org. They will all be curable by some balance. I'm leaning towards making chills something unique and leaving the fire/shivering/frozen stuff in place and separate from chills. If we go that way, then it'll be like the other ones that all reduce bal/eq and reduce resistance to cold damage. With that in mind, only pyrotoxin would contribute to a mages offense and to be honest, I'm not too terribly concerned about pyrotoxin increasing burns at the moment. It's always done so and it's not something people tend to rely on in fights. I think in general, you're giving up too much and not getting enough in return by doing so. I do think we'll need to change it at some point (before people jump on me), but I don't think it's something that needs to happen right now. I think we're better off forging ahead with the changes and adjusting pyrotoxin to something that makes sense after we've settled things in a bit rather than put energy into changing it right now.
And yes, we'll take into consideration cure times and how much something is cured.
As far as different cures go, as noted before, one of the major goals was synergy. A direct result of synergy is to be able to kill faster. I don't think it dumbs down or makes combat easier, I think it makes things more tactical, both offensively and defensively.
@Orael Thank you for the clarifications, that makes it a tiny bit less terrifying, and I'd like to argue for egodrain on Bubble over manadrain. Manadrain isn't really a Celest synergy, as only the Celestines have a way to make use of it. Egodrain synergizes with the Aquamancers and Cantors, and technically the Tahtetso that can use the forgotten Harmony insta that requires each vital to be drained to a threshold. Also, if manadrain becomes the effect then Aquameld will be the undisputed best meld for whatever alliance Celest is in, simply because of that drain.
One of my goals here was to simplify the melding stuff. For instance, Geos can just 'taint' everything and BT can just forest everything. They don't need to 'defoliate' or 'infest' like they would previously. Another example is that illusory terrain will no longer block druid melds from being broken (saplings will still be used). I was sticking deluge in that list by just making it the typical state. I didn't think there was really a situation where an Aqua wouldn't want things to be deluged.
No, I don't think we should be keeping chasm as it is. I think this is an all or nothing situation - either everyone gets a channeled insta-kill or nobody does.
I think scarab is going to need tweaking from its current values, but overall this has me hyped.
As far as terrain/saplings - I coded it so terrain just doesn't stop changing forest nature, but saplings do.
If there is another node or another connection blocking your connection, then the connection doesn't happen and nothing changes. If the blocking stuff is removed, the connection will then form.
Breaking is just a channeled action to change the nature to your type. Killing the melder/elemental doesn't change the nature but removes the node. We could make it trueground it I suppose but at the moment it just leaves it.
Illusionary terrain only lasts an hour currently so that functionality is already there.
I think at this point, we need to
I'll work on ideas for the first two - but I'd like to see more discussion on bubble/fleshstone and keeping those effects. Again, it's all or nothing so if we decide to keep them, then Aero/Pyro/Druids would need similar effects. Is that something people would genuinely like to see come back. I think if we did have them, being in that state would not allow you to stop breaking.
Other than that, I think we're in pretty good shape and I'll get started on this when I return from my vacation. Thanks for all the input so far, there's been some good things brought up.
Second part, I get it, but I dunno, is that different from someone melding Nil, etc? Like, is a player being a strong melder a reason for not having equal allowances in what is and isn't meldable in the first place?
Mostly, I'm against classes getting special toys. If bubble/fleshstone are allowed because mages don't have access to serpent, should druids not get something that is roughly equivalent to greatpent? The argument that 'Druids can serpent to hold onto node rooms longer' is not that different from 'Mages can expel+greatpent to hold onto node rooms longer', no?
(I'm a huuuuge fan of all orgs having access to exactly the same tools. I could finally get on board with Lusternian PvP then!)