I didn't count anomaly release because it's interruptible, which makes it a higher bar than running around and surviving given that someone can just walk into your room and type timequake release.
(clan): Falmiis says, "Aramelise, verb, 1. adorn with many flowers."
Lower the maximum orgpoints you can get. When people asked for more conflict events, I believe (I may be mistaken) the ask was for the conflict events to feel optional. Less org-level rewards would make the whole thing feel more like mini-wargames and less like domoths.
I didn't count anomaly release because it's interruptible, which makes it a higher bar than running around and surviving given that someone can just walk into your room and type timequake release.
You have to be removed, voluntarily or forced, from the room to interrupt it, rather than using the release command to override. It isn't much security, but it does exist.
The timequake helpfile seems to suggest otherwise - is this not the case?
When you start to release the anomaly, you must stay in that room for a time. Only one person can release an anomaly at a given time, and if you are moved from the room, or someone else starts to release it, they will unlock you from releasing it yourself.
(clan): Falmiis says, "Aramelise, verb, 1. adorn with many flowers."
I think something that is either overlooked entirely or just not clear -- There is no incentive to compete. XP loss isn't why people go, "Oh darn, don't know if I should go into that fight." XP loss is such a negligible thing that people will throw themselves at dangerous mob hunts etc. I want a show of hands, who thinks it is fun to keep going into fights where you are completely outnumbered in every conceivable way? Raise those hands! There are people that do it sheerly due to boredom and find mild success, but those are raids. When conflict events happen, we the minority show up and make a honest effort, only to get quite literally steamrolled out of any sense of competition, in EVERY SINGLE one. Sure we have the ultra rare occasion of winning by the grace of whatever God someone holds holy, where we actually lose our minds, "Holy hell! We finally got something!"
But that rare occasion isn't a driving force, there is no competition in this game. There hasn't been for quite a while, and stating there has been really needs to be investigated more closely. The only competition in this game right now, is the Envoy Wars. The people of Mag, Seren, and Halli put up with this on a daily basis, still trying to offer PvP when we can even muster a small force, and it is usually met with a deluge of people, easily doubling and often tripling the number we bring. Back to the original point though, people aren't sitting back to protect their precious XP levels, they're sitting back because quite frankly the power invested in the defences is worth more to us than making the 'attempt' and instantly getting murdered by a fortress.
Honestly, I've been ignoring this point because as far as the first timequake goes, that just wasn't the case. But if you're going to keep pounding on it, I'm going to respond.
During the first timequake, which I personally observed, the one that you ran to forums to complain about overwhelming numbers, the numbers were 10 for Glom/Celest and 7 for Mag/Choros. You're making claims here of 'double or triple our number' when the instance that triggered this complaint wasn't even double.
Even your claim that had we included everyone, you'd still be outnumbered isn't true either. The numbers on the game at the time of the first timequake were 18-16. They had 2 people on you.
I'm not saying this to be all 'git gud' or 'try harder' but to be frankly honest and critical about the situation. What I observed is that you felt like you couldn't compete, so you just didn't. That's what I want to combat. That feeling that you can't compete, the feeling that you're going to throw in the towel because you just feel like you don't have a chance without giving it an honest to god shot.
I'm all for changing this perception, for trying to promote combat and that feeling that you do stand a chance. We need to look at each situation critically, and as you say 'investigate it more closely' but that's going to require you to realize that you are not always vastly outnumbered. It's going to take some acknowledgment on both sides to move forward.
To clarify, I'm not saying that you never are outnumbered or even that in most situations you are not outnumbered. I'm saying in this one situation - that you claimed you were - you were not really. We're on the same team here, and we're going to need to be honest and critical about what's happening, why it's happening and what we can do to fix the situation.
The second timequake and 1 from Celest and 1 From glom it in right?
Not sure there is a point, since when that second one happened, most people were probably asleep. I can't say how many people participated, but it was probably less than four total. Who knows? What I do know though, is that every timequake thus far has gone one way, and has remained that way regardless.
Yeah, second timequake I went there, saw Steingrim and Auriella, and Esri sitting just outside the rift. I was the only one online so I shrugged and went back to influencing.
(clan): Falmiis says, "Aramelise, verb, 1. adorn with many flowers."
Oh man, my point wasn't that we need to be pointing out every time something is even or uneven now. That doesn't help anyone.
My point was that if the perception is you can't compete when it is even, that's a much bigger problem we need to solve than trying to figure out how to combat things being uneven. That should come first. I'm just explaining why my focus is on making sure you can compete first before addressing number imbalances. I agree entirely with what Aramel said, in that it's more about the quality of players than the quantity of players. Quantity only exacerbates quality.
I can tune down the orgpoint timer - lower it to a 25 point cap and lower the timer to 5 mins. Or is the better option to remove orgcredit values altogether? The main reason it was included was that people have complained that the culture side of the org points is too strong.
It should have some impact like other worldgames. Why not make it tick if someone from the org enters the rift? I know you objected to this for other world events, but you stated that you intend this to reward and encourage trying (including via removal of the exp loss). Since it is its own area trigger an on-entry event should be feasible.
Since the cap is 50, and there seem to be 4ish per day, that gives around 50 quakes per year to try in. If your org enters the rift just 10 of those times you would hit the cap.
Reduce the amount of work needed to trigger it, encourage showing up, and I think it would be a definite improvement. 50 points seems all right as a cap with the overall frequency of the thing. It really does need a cap or they would rule everything, though.
Would it help if the point cap was made same as domoths? Personally, though, I like that the culture side is strong for org points, because otherwise culture is completely ignored by most people.
You are startled as a lemon meringue pie bounces harmlessly off you after being thrown at you by Mysrai.
Would it help if the point cap was made same as domoths? Personally, though, I like that the culture side is strong for org points, because otherwise culture is completely ignored by most people.
I agree, culture should be strong. A good competitive system has strong things on both side, so if you compete in multiple arenas you do better than exclusively focusing on one or the other. Having more conflict points is better than nerfing culture points imo. We just need to make sure that we are not letting one or the other dominate. Until now the culture ones have been dominating on every Culture year, though, and have needed a little more counterplay.
Villages, domoths, timequakes all have additional stuff over and above org points so are almost reward enough in themselves
Library, stage, designing and psychodrama get nothing else so maybe should be stronger for org credits. These are all things that are neutral on org size and even the smallest org can compete. Once you start adding in the combat stuff, it creates an unequal field favouring stronger organisations
Culture (and designing) also is a good reason for non-coders who like writing to play the game. From personal experience, Stage productions are very daunting and a lot of strenuous work and most people don't even see it. If rewards are nerfed, there's very little reason to keep doing these things.
You are startled as a lemon meringue pie bounces harmlessly off you after being thrown at you by Mysrai.
Also, in my opinion, combat is the cause for most of the animosity in the forums, and which many people think needs overhaul/more balance. And if more importance is put on winning combat-based event for org points, it might just cause more animosity.
You are startled as a lemon meringue pie bounces harmlessly off you after being thrown at you by Mysrai.
Also, in my opinion, combat is the cause for most of the animosity in the forums, and which many people think needs overhaul/more balance. And if more importance is put on winning combat-based event for org points, it might just cause more animosity.
You don't get any points for winning a timequake (there is not even a codified way of winning). Just for participation.
You do get the anomalies, though. And, like some people here pointed out, even staying long enough to count the org points is based on combat skill.
Also adding, I don't think Timequakes should be taken away completely or anything. But make it easier to participate and/or reduce its orgpoints.
I agree with making the participation easier! My suggestion was to trigger the participation tick on entry to the rift. Just showing up would count. That would be really helpful to my mind. If an org has people that try in ten of the approximately fifty that occur each year it would hit the cap (which is far better than having to survive in a fifteen room area for even five minutes... that is still a pretty long time).
I agree with the Ides of participation points ticking in when entering the rift.
Also imo, one timequake every 5-7 hours is a bit too frequent. Especially in lower populated orgs, where only 1-2 people are about, it makes it a little harder to do other things (a timequake started when I was recording a play one time, and it was a bit distracting to constantly see messages asking if Gaudiguch is participating (only me and another person who was watching was around). I know similar things happen with revolts and things, and it's a part of it all, but those events aren't nearly as frequent)
You are startled as a lemon meringue pie bounces harmlessly off you after being thrown at you by Mysrai.
I am really hoping that once they have been around longer that people start seeing them as being more optional. Show up for daily credits and anomalies if you want them, do other things otherwise. The frequency is, I think, a good reason to not put as much emphasis on them as other world games.
Our problem is that our world games have always been so infrequent that we have trained ourselves to jump at them every time, otherwise we miss out (potentially for RL months). With faster quakes, if you miss one, so what?
Reducing the frequency just makes attendance more of a requirement, like other games, because if you skip it you have no idea when you will get another chance.
Villages, domoths, timequakes all have additional stuff over and above org points so are almost reward enough in themselves
Library, stage, designing and psychodrama get nothing else so maybe should be stronger for org credits. These are all things that are neutral on org size and even the smallest org can compete. Once you start adding in the combat stuff, it creates an unequal field favouring stronger organisations
I think something that is either overlooked entirely or just not clear -- There is no incentive to compete. XP loss isn't why people go, "Oh darn, don't know if I should go into that fight." XP loss is such a negligible thing that people will throw themselves at dangerous mob hunts etc. I want a show of hands, who thinks it is fun to keep going into fights where you are completely outnumbered in every conceivable way? Raise those hands! There are people that do it sheerly due to boredom and find mild success, but those are raids. When conflict events happen, we the minority show up and make a honest effort, only to get quite literally steamrolled out of any sense of competition, in EVERY SINGLE one. Sure we have the ultra rare occasion of winning by the grace of whatever God someone holds holy, where we actually lose our minds, "Holy hell! We finally got something!"
But that rare occasion isn't a driving force, there is no competition in this game. There hasn't been for quite a while, and stating there has been really needs to be investigated more closely. The only competition in this game right now, is the Envoy Wars. The people of Mag, Seren, and Halli put up with this on a daily basis, still trying to offer PvP when we can even muster a small force, and it is usually met with a deluge of people, easily doubling and often tripling the number we bring. Back to the original point though, people aren't sitting back to protect their precious XP levels, they're sitting back because quite frankly the power invested in the defences is worth more to us than making the 'attempt' and instantly getting murdered by a fortress.
Honestly, I've been ignoring this point because as far as the first timequake goes, that just wasn't the case. But if you're going to keep pounding on it, I'm going to respond.
During the first timequake, which I personally observed, the one that you ran to forums to complain about overwhelming numbers, the numbers were 10 for Glom/Celest and 7 for Mag/Choros. You're making claims here of 'double or triple our number' when the instance that triggered this complaint wasn't even double.
Even your claim that had we included everyone, you'd still be outnumbered isn't true either. The numbers on the game at the time of the first timequake were 18-16. They had 2 people on you.
I'm not saying this to be all 'git gud' or 'try harder' but to be frankly honest and critical about the situation. What I observed is that you felt like you couldn't compete, so you just didn't. That's what I want to combat. That feeling that you can't compete, the feeling that you're going to throw in the towel because you just feel like you don't have a chance without giving it an honest to god shot.
I'm all for changing this perception, for trying to promote combat and that feeling that you do stand a chance. We need to look at each situation critically, and as you say 'investigate it more closely' but that's going to require you to realize that you are not always vastly outnumbered. It's going to take some acknowledgment on both sides to move forward.
To clarify, I'm not saying that you never are outnumbered or even that in most situations you are not outnumbered. I'm saying in this one situation - that you claimed you were - you were not really. We're on the same team here, and we're going to need to be honest and critical about what's happening, why it's happening and what we can do to fix the situation.
The second timequake and 1 from Celest and 1 From glom it in right?
2 people.
wE oNlY hAd TwO pEoPle
So, one time during a timequake you only had two people, and the other side didn't contest it, so we're just lazy. Got it.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
So, one time during a timequake you only had two people, and the other side didn't contest it, so we're just lazy. Got it.
No need to be negative the other side came to a fight with a bigger group in the last one. Theres plenty of good people on both sides. People are starting to put in some effort and we can have some really fun timequake battles.
It looks like timequakes are the motivation some people needed to start taking part.
Villages, domoths, timequakes all have additional stuff over and above org points so are almost reward enough in themselves
Library, stage, designing and psychodrama get nothing else so maybe should be stronger for org credits. These are all things that are neutral on org size and even the smallest org can compete. Once you start adding in the combat stuff, it creates an unequal field favouring stronger organisations
Dont you get power for culture strength?
You do but you also get it for villages and domoths.
Can we not do the "people are trying" thing here? Make it a rave or something. I think it's great if they are! But I would like to keep this thread oriented around quake improvements vs. the inevitable org stuff if we keep going down that route. There are definite improvements and enhancements to be had which encourage more participation (which I think we all can agree that we want, yes?).
I'd like to third Xenthos's suggestion about orgpoints on entry, or some really short time like 30-60s. I for one don't mind yoloing in to pvp if I think there's a realistic chance for my org to gain something by it, but surviving 10 mins or even 5 mins in a small, melded area is a pretty tall order. If the intent is to reward participation instead of just victory, it seems doubly demoralizing for an org or group to be told that their participation accomplished so little that it doesn't even count as participation. Orgpoints on entry helps counter that, and gives a reason for even newbies to at least show up.
Edit: I'd like to say that the no xp loss is a nice touch, but one thing that people don't consider is the non-mechanical opportunity cost of conflict, which I would argue is even more important. I've never minded losing essence or xp - it's easy to come by - but the worst part of going into a fight with a group and wiping, and going back and wiping again, is the loss of morale among the group, especially midbies who often then decide to sit conflict out next time. That's the real cost of losing conflicts repeatedly, and it doesn't have that much to do with the actual mechanics of dying. Being able to get orgpoints more easily helps to alleviate that loss of morale by fostering a sense that something has been accomplished, instead of it being a winner-take-all scenario.
(clan): Falmiis says, "Aramelise, verb, 1. adorn with many flowers."
Comments
My point was that if the perception is you can't compete when it is even, that's a much bigger problem we need to solve than trying to figure out how to combat things being uneven. That should come first. I'm just explaining why my focus is on making sure you can compete first before addressing number imbalances. I agree entirely with what Aramel said, in that it's more about the quality of players than the quantity of players. Quantity only exacerbates quality.
I can tune down the orgpoint timer - lower it to a 25 point cap and lower the timer to 5 mins. Or is the better option to remove orgcredit values altogether? The main reason it was included was that people have complained that the culture side of the org points is too strong.
Library, stage, designing and psychodrama get nothing else so maybe should be stronger for org credits. These are all things that are neutral on org size and even the smallest org can compete. Once you start adding in the combat stuff, it creates an unequal field favouring stronger organisations
Also adding, I don't think Timequakes should be taken away completely or anything. But make it easier to participate and/or reduce its orgpoints.
Also imo, one timequake every 5-7 hours is a bit too frequent. Especially in lower populated orgs, where only 1-2 people are about, it makes it a little harder to do other things (a timequake started when I was recording a play one time, and it was a bit distracting to constantly see messages asking if Gaudiguch is participating (only me and another person who was watching was around). I know similar things happen with revolts and things, and it's a part of it all, but those events aren't nearly as frequent)
So, one time during a timequake you only had two people, and the other side didn't contest it, so we're just lazy. Got it.
You do but you also get it for villages and domoths.
Edit: I'd like to say that the no xp loss is a nice touch, but one thing that people don't consider is the non-mechanical opportunity cost of conflict, which I would argue is even more important. I've never minded losing essence or xp - it's easy to come by - but the worst part of going into a fight with a group and wiping, and going back and wiping again, is the loss of morale among the group, especially midbies who often then decide to sit conflict out next time. That's the real cost of losing conflicts repeatedly, and it doesn't have that much to do with the actual mechanics of dying. Being able to get orgpoints more easily helps to alleviate that loss of morale by fostering a sense that something has been accomplished, instead of it being a winner-take-all scenario.