Unpeace the Aetherplex

Xenthos

The Aetherplex was peaced so that people could travel into the Starhopper in safety without being murdered for their toys (back when there were toys that could be turned in for a bounty in dingbats).

This event is long since past (finished years ago in fact).  The reasoning for a peaced aetherplex no longer exists.  Why is the place still peaced now?  It is protected by Avenger, so you cannot just murder people there in bulk for no reason.  Attempting to do so will get the Avenger all worked up about your actions.

At the same time, there are a couple of people who hang out there to 'abuse' the peace (for example, Liwase, who just makes figurines of everyone passing through and whom many people would like to do something to in response).

I basically just see no real reason for it to remain peaced at this point.  Please remove it!

Enyalida

Agreed! 

Tully

While I can understand your sentiment, I personally think keeping the most traversed place in the basin peaced ends up being beneficial.  Before it used to be an ambush point, and I would hate to see people start setting up demenses that place again.

Xenthos

Tully said:

While I can understand your sentiment, I personally think keeping the most traversed place in the basin peaced ends up being beneficial.  Before it used to be an ambush point, and I would hate to see people start setting up demenses that place again.

One word: Avenger.

Tully

That doesn't prevent one-kill harassment.  (I never understood why you need to be killed twice to invoke Avenger).

Plus, if Liwase is truly upsetting people, and people think it's OOC harassment, it should be issued.  And if the admin don't think what she's doing is harassment, then people need to be mature and ignore her and her figurines.  

Xenthos

Tully said:

That doesn't prevent one-kill harassment.  (I never understood why you need to be killed twice to invoke Avenger).

Plus, if Liwase is truly upsetting people, and people think it's OOC harassment, it should be issued.  And if the admin don't think what she's doing is harassment, then people need to be mature and ignore her and her figurines.  

Or allow people to pursue in-game remedies to their problems... you're the one always pushing for people to do that, why are you so against it when it involves a little text-blood?

One kill also isn't harassment, part of the entire definition of harassment is its repeated nature.  If you are irking many people off to the point that each one wants to kill you once, that's kind of on you, and maybe you should consider changing your habits.

Enyalida

If you can't PORTAL ENTER FOO, I think you've got other problems. Unless your ambusher can totally shut you down before you're able to put in a single command, you can get to a manse that they can't enter, and zip out into an org they won't [enter].

Plus, avenger, a single kill isn't harassment. If you've genuinely pissed enough  people off to the point that they are cycling people to kill you many times, you shouldn't be able to sit in a peaced room thumbing your nose at them. If people are hunting you, bring friends, get back at them, or just avoid the plex until things calm down.

 Avenger already stops the VAST majority of all prime conflict, the only time anyone would risk declaring in such an easily accessible and public space would be if they are certain no one will come to the declared person's defense. Otherwise 1v1 turns into However-many vs 1, and the declarer either has to run or will die. And again, if you've caused enough problems that you have no org to hide in, no private/org manses to escape to, and no one who will jump to your defense, the one death per RL month may do you some good.

EDIT: Fixed a placement error. Let's not kill each other IRL, please.

Tully

Or allow people to pursue in-game remedies to their problems... you're the one always pushing for people to do that, why are you so against it when it involves a little text-blood?

I'm against people changing long-established norms of the game (aetherplex peaced, how arts works) for a single issue.  

Enyalida

That is just an example, not the entire reason for wanting to unpeace the plex. Just like a few choice people abusing grace (Inagin, for example) weren't the only reason for wanting (And eventually succeeding in) grace removal. 

Xenthos

Tully said:

Or allow people to pursue in-game remedies to their problems... you're the one always pushing for people to do that, why are you so against it when it involves a little text-blood?

I'm against people changing long-established norms of the game (aetherplex peaced, how arts works) for a single issue.  

I explained why the Aetherplex was peaced in the first post.

Note that it was not because it is a central traveling location.

And the aetherplex peace stuff is not just the province of one individual- you also have Munsia and a number of the other 'troll-alts' who like to stand there and emote things that they know nobody can do anything about (due to the peaced nature).

If anything, it's more disturbing that you can't handle those individuals now and send them on their way when you are going through the "central gathering location".  Talking there, fine.  Harassing other people moving through there, not-fine.  If people feel harassed, they should have some means of IC redress.

Zvoltz

Tully said:

 (I never understood why you need to be killed twice to invoke Avenger).

Lusternia isn't a safe-zone. There are plenty of reason why people might have legitimate reasons to kill someone else on Prime when they are normally protected by Avenger. Why should you have to wait until someone goes off-prime or into enemy territory if you want to kill them for calling you a name or stealing something from you?

Enyalida

Or until they step out of their nice, peaced, central location.

Cyndarin

Plex was not peaced when I started, and it actually turned into a dueling/small fight area quite often. It did not, however, turn into a random murder room to grief people shopping. That was extremely rare, so I believe that concern is historically moot.

I'd also like to point out that a single kill is definitely not harassment. 

Cyndarin

Just as a note, the plex has been not peaced longer than it has been peaced across the full history of the game. I would hardly consider it "long established" or a "norm" when you consider why it was changed.

Tully

Zvoltz said:

Tully said:

 (I never understood why you need to be killed twice to invoke Avenger).

Lusternia isn't a safe-zone. There are plenty of reason why people might have legitimate reasons to kill someone else on Prime when they are normally protected by Avenger. Why should you have to wait until someone goes off-prime or into enemy territory if you want to kill them for calling you a name or stealing something from you?

I agree with that general sentiment.  Though the few times I personally got killed by a player, there was never any communication or RP from that person why I was killed.  (I think the only people who've even done that were Revan and Visaeris), so I was wondering just from that perspective why they could do that once in a 30 day period.  

But I realize that's not a normal case.

Shuyin

Tully said:

Or allow people to pursue in-game remedies to their problems... you're the one always pushing for people to do that, why are you so against it when it involves a little text-blood?

I'm against people changing long-established norms of the game (aetherplex peaced, how arts works) for a single issue.  

It's like we play different games.

This is pretty much how Lusternia's worked for the past 6+ years I've played. Guildhall break-ins, smob bashing, rule changes for ascension events, suddenly unforceable commands, and so forth, with the latest being changing the deeds system for orgs. 

If anything, the game not changing long-established norms for a single issue would surprise me more.

Cyndarin

Remember that time choke was permanently changed after it was used to stop a DL raid.

Enyalida

Tully said:

Last time I was killed by a player, there was never any communication or RP from that person why I was killed.  (I think the only people who've even done that were Revan and Visaeris), so I was wondering just from that perspective why they could do that once in a 30 day period.  

But I realize that's not a normal case.

Well, that actually is a normal case, more or less. With so many safe areas and strict avenger protection on most of the game, warning someone ahead of time you planned to kill them would be silly. It's usually assumed you understand why you were killed (even if it was just "was an enemy, had a chance to kill"). 

I think that's a really stupid aspect of Avenger protection, that it legitimizes stupid/random killing by its very nature. However, as long as Avenger works as it does, the 'PK rules' will be how they are: non-existent. With Avechna, if you are able to kill them, it's okay for you to do so, just as with Grace before: If you areable to do something while graced, it was okay for you to do so. "No Grace/Avenger abuse", because by definition, if the system allows it, it's not abusive. 

If you want to argue for a change to Avenger system, I would be extremely interested, I think it's a flawed system. But yeah, no peaced plex!

Tully

Enyalida said:

Well, that actually is a normal case, more or less. 

Just in those few cases (at least with the Revan ones), it was never done for anything I did.  Usually, you know why you got killed--you did something to them, were the enemy org, etc.  Somehow, you know why you died.  That's all I was saying--I don't care if I'm killed because "I don't like your face"--but from an in-game perspective, that's kind of all that I need.  (And I wasn't asking to be told why I was killed right before it happened either).  I don't mind enemies or even being killed by another, I just mind what appears to be a random jump without any reason.

But I'm not trying to suggest anything about Avenger or Karma or anything like that.  

I do think peaced areas can be abused...code-wise, I'd like to see if certain peaced zones was limited by time, like grace, so you'd have enough time to be protected but it wears off and won't come back for a while.  But there are a few places where peacing is needed, like the portal or Avenger proper.  But that's probably a harder thing to do.

Xenthos

As a note, it was always about something you've done; there've been times when I have been tempted to either enemy or kill you too, but I've always decided not to.

There's a (very small) playerbase anti-Tully-Cult that has formed (mostly in Mag) that gets really excited when they see players kill you, based on minor annoyances that have built up over the years, though.  So they do it for the kudos and adulation from their peers.

Tully

I'd rather have IC "cold war" tensions than simple kill/enemy stuff.  It's likely more fun for both parties.

Xenthos

Tully said:

I'd rather have IC "cold war" tensions than simple kill/enemy stuff.  It's likely more fun for both parties.

I'm not really sure how Cold War tensions are more fun than using the coded skills in the game, personally...

I prefer a mix of RP and fighting, where the fighting is a logical end result of the RP; if someone is making a nuisance of themselves, and your character is one who doesn't tolerate such things well, your character may have a violent reaction.

See: Xavier Snapfuse's nephew.

Enyalida

And 'cold war tensions' only work when there is an implied (or explicit) threat of violence. If that violence is impossible, where is the tension? Can't cause a missile scare if everyone knows you have no missiles!

Tully

This is off topic really, I just meant the threat is more fun if you rp it. For instance, when I was enemied to Hallifax for agreeing with the striking dwarves, I was expecting to be put on trial or something like that, or instead of going that route we could've had an arguement over the news, instead of just being enemied, so I was kind of disappointed with how that was handled, since I was impressed with their RP. But that's just me and has nothing to do with peacing.

Enyalida

Well, right. But as far as this specific example (the aetherplex being peaced), you can sit there all day RPing at someone, and they can totally ignore you, as they know you cannot really do anything to them. Take away the peace and suddenly that RP has a mechanical backbone to it!

Dys

Enyalida said:

  one RL death per month may do you some good.

Shuyin

I don't think we conglut RL

Though it's still no hilarious commentary about guardian guilds of various religious beliefs.

But yes, aetherplex rabble rabble.

Enyalida

Oh. Put the RL in the wrong place, sorry! I meant one death per RL month, obviously!

Rivius

I think it's a bit strange to think that people would get jumped in the plex more than anywhere else on prime...

Tully

It was a popular ganking place pre-toy time, because people would wait for others to go or leavre their manses.

Lerad

Only if those targets did something that warranted the gank. Like, maybe, pissing off everyone in the ganking group. Which would have taken place anywhere else the target popped out, and still takes place elsewhere right now, outside of the plex area. Plex being peaced never affected people who got jumped for a valid reason.

Your objections from the start was that it would lead to pointless jumping... which it probably won't.