Seems more like flying and you have the same seat, but they ran out of the beef and you have to eat the chicken instead.
Did anyone buy a pipe for furrikin and only for furrikin? If so, I can see that person feeling like it is a nerf to them. At the same time that is a huge price to lock yourself into just one thing, and would seem to justify the assertion that the problem is with furrikin to boot...
I am curious what race you made it for. Ideally other races would have decent enough demi powers that you would review and change every so often depending on what you are focusing on. I know that is what I have done with my pipe (though I have not actually changed it much, I sometimes go through racial powers to see if there is something I would like to work with for a while). My current secondary race is picked to help with a long-term goal, for example.
The fact that we have to have this argument because of a 2K artefact means that yes, the wonderpipe is the problem, and any time you nerf f2p players all you're going to do is drive them further and further away from the game. Joe Schmoe who wants to be a cute and cuddly badger furrikin and was doing reasonably well at combat as a...fuck, I don't know, as a Pyromancer now suddenly finds that because people who have access to 3K worth of extra artefacts that he cannot afford (maybe he's cheap, maybe it's real life issues, who knows? It's not our decision to mandate what or how players choose to use their real-life funds) made a decision, he's suddenly less effective and only gets one shot at a reincarnation.
Meanwhile, what happens to the people with the wonderpipe? Probably all go lucidian for the free power regen. Or lobo for the vitals regen. They *will not care* - as this thread is showing - that an entire race and an entire sect of people will have their game experience invariably altered because of the "Haves".
If the pipe doesn't exist then they're not an issue. You take Furrikin for those perks and miss out on others, congratulations you're a slightly slower acrobat.
Furrikin is an issue on its own even if we ignore the pipe.
And here we disagree. Furrikin without the pipe wasn't a problem, because you had other races to choose from, we didn't have everyone going Furrikin when the overhaul hit. We didn't have them going Furrikin when Lucidian got nerfed.
Furrikin is a knockoff version of acrobatics, with somersault and a halfway between contort and writhe. It's no more an issue than 2/5ths of the classes in this game having access to the real thing.
Your giving powerful skills to classes that dont normally have access to them. By your own logic there thats a problem.
The fact that we have to have this argument because of a 2K artefact means that yes, the wonderpipe is the problem, and any time you nerf f2p players all you're going to do is drive them further and further away from the game. Joe Schmoe who wants to be a cute and cuddly badger furrikin and was doing reasonably well at combat as a...fuck, I don't know, as a Pyromancer now suddenly finds that because people who have access to 3K worth of extra artefacts that he cannot afford (maybe he's cheap, maybe it's real life issues, who knows? It's not our decision to mandate what or how players choose to use their real-life funds) made a decision, he's suddenly less effective and only gets one shot at a reincarnation.
Meanwhile, what happens to the people with the wonderpipe? Probably all go lucidian for the free power regen. Or lobo for the vitals regen. They *will not care* - as this thread is showing - that an entire race and an entire sect of people will have their game experience invariably altered because of the "Haves".
Im fine with nerfing the pipe.
Irregardless of what you do with the pipe we should also nerf furrikin.
Totally ignoring the pipe and just looking at furrikin vs every other race. Not a single other race has demi powers anywhere near as good as furrikin for pvp. Its a clear imbalance thats easy to fix.
Then buff the others to an equitable state because you are forgetting that without a prior investment it is still a large grind to get to demi if people are not forcefeeding you experience buffs, and this should feel like an accomplishment. EDIT: Clarity and people read capitals in shouts.
THEN BUFF THE OTHERS TO AN EQUITABLE STATE BECAUSE YOU ARE FORGETTING THAT WITHOUT A PRIOR INVESTMENT IT IS STILL A LARGE GRIND TO GET TO DEMI IF PEOPLE ARE NOT FORCEFEEDING YOU EXPERIENCE BUFFS.
No thank you. That is a
bit of an unreasonable approach. We have 1 single outlying race with
furrikin that is too good and about 4-5 races that are just right and
the rest are junk. We should nerf furrikin down to the good level and
buff up the others.
It makes more sense to me to nerf the one op race and buff the weak races to being on a good level.
If the pipe doesn't exist then they're not an issue. You take Furrikin for those perks and miss out on others, congratulations you're a slightly slower acrobat.
Furrikin is an issue on its own even if we ignore the pipe.
And here we disagree. Furrikin without the pipe wasn't a problem, because you had other races to choose from, we didn't have everyone going Furrikin when the overhaul hit. We didn't have them going Furrikin when Lucidian got nerfed.
Furrikin is a knockoff version of acrobatics, with somersault and a halfway between contort and writhe. It's no more an issue than 2/5ths of the classes in this game having access to the real thing.
Your giving powerful skills to classes that dont normally have access to them. By your own logic there thats a problem.
You can't consider time or money invested when trying to think of balancing things @Tremula you can't justify things being op just because you've invested in them previously. If its op its op.
There is a broken class (warriors) at the moment; apparently there are not the resources to fix it right now. That makes it really hard to believe that there are the resources to review all the races again any time soon.
You can italics all you want but that isn't super productive. Maybe you could offer suggestions for the other races to buff them instead? If they are provided a list of easy-to-do things maybe it will be more appealing than "buff all the other races, all on you, good luck".
You can't consider time or money invested when trying to think of balancing things @Tremula you can't justify things being op just because you've invested in them previously. If its op its op.
I feel like this is true, but it's also true that you can't or shouldn't consider something OP just because you don't like fighting against it. Is it truly OP if you spend 2k credits just to have slightly faster writhing + tumble? Aside from a handful of outliers, Lusternia has been and always will be pay2win.
Slightly faster writhing isn't OP. I mean, I could see people complaining if the furrikin power was "dodge web", like Achaeans have in one of their artifacts. It's not, though.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
You can't consider time or money invested when trying to think of
balancing things @Tremula you can't justify things being op just
because you've invested in them previously. If its op its op.
I feel like this is true, but it's also true that you can't or
shouldn't consider something OP just because you don't like fighting
against it. Is it truly OP if you spend 2k credits just to have slightly
faster writhing + tumble? Aside from a handful of outliers, Lusternia
has been and always will be pay2win.
Slightly faster writhing
isn't OP. I mean, I could see people complaining if the furrikin power
was "dodge web", like Achaeans have in one of their artifacts. It's not,
though.
Its not the writhe thing. Its roll. Tumbling out of a hostile room
is pretty much the main thing to do to survive. Roll buffs that speed
massivly. Faster writhe time on top is a nice bonus to have as well for
sure but the big thing in furri is roll.
Furrikin dramatically
increases your ability to survive group combat, and I mean dramatically
its a massive buff. No other race comes even close to offering such a
strong offensive or defensive buff. (at Demi)
I say this as someone who uses it, being furrikin has saved me and won fights. Lots of times because its pretty op.
I'm pointing out an op skill I have and use because I think its too strong. If people don't want to nerf it thats fine. I'll keep using it and it'll keep me alive much longer than I should be alive for. But I do feel its my responsibiility to point skills, races and set ups that are too strong.
My suggestion was split slip and roll. Slip at demi, roll at demi+
Let's be reasonable, it's not OP to pay 2k credits to have slightly faster tumble. I can remember having it for free as a level 50+ furrikin pre-racial overhaul, and I can assure you that the high level combatants weren't jumping at the chance to be furrikin just for that sweet faux-somersault. If you're that worried about it, why not suggest that roll be given some sort of variance whereas it has a chance to have the same speed as tumble, or faster?
Now. Are you able to provide multiple logs showing how someone as a furrikin (piped or otherwise) managed to turn the tide of a battle simply because they could roll out of the room? Evidence that roll is breaking Lusternia would go a long way in fixing it.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Let's be reasonable, it's not OP to pay 2k credits to have slightly faster tumble. I can remember having it for free as a level 50+ furrikin pre-racial overhaul, and I can assure you that the high level combatants weren't jumping at the chance to be furrikin just for that sweet faux-somersault. If you're that worried about it, why not suggest that roll be given some sort of variance whereas it has a chance to have the same speed as tumble, or faster?
Now. Are you able to provide multiple logs showing how someone as a furrikin (piped or otherwise) managed to turn the tide of a battle simply because they could roll out of the room? Evidence that roll is breaking Lusternia would go a long way in fixing it.
Pre overhaul you could get faster than roll speeds on tumble anyway by shrinking your size. Pre overhaul roll is a totally different thing to post overhaul roll.
Let's be reasonable, it's not OP to pay 2k credits to have slightly faster tumble. I can remember having it for free as a level 50+ furrikin pre-racial overhaul, and I can assure you that the high level combatants weren't jumping at the chance to be furrikin just for that sweet faux-somersault. If you're that worried about it, why not suggest that roll be given some sort of variance whereas it has a chance to have the same speed as tumble, or faster?
Now. Are you able to provide multiple logs showing how someone as a furrikin (piped or otherwise) managed to turn the tide of a battle simply because they could roll out of the room? Evidence that roll is breaking Lusternia would go a long way in fixing it.
Pre overhaul you could get faster than roll speeds on tumble anyway by shrinking your size. Pre overhaul roll is a totally different thing to post overhaul roll.
You're still welcome to provide numbers and/or logs supporting your claim
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Now. Are you able to provide multiple logs showing how someone as a furrikin (piped or otherwise) managed to turn the tide of a battle simply because they could roll out of the room? Evidence that roll is breaking Lusternia would go a long way in fixing it.
If you take a look at pretty much every group combat log you'll see most top combatants using roll to escape death rooms that tumble wouldn't have worked as well in. Not saying tumble wouldn't have saved them but its much easier to counter tumble than it is to counter roll.
Roll goes quicker than many classes basic balance speeds which means if you start a roll as they attack you then you can get out of the room and there is nothing much they can do to counter it. Tumble on the other hand is significantly slower than every classes basic attack speed.
This means that if you tumble even if you time it perfectly any class can see the tumble and have a few seconds to spend countering it. It gives enough time for you to see the tumble start, recover balance from it, jump out the room and gust/springtrap/whatever the target back.
Roll is significantly stronger than tumble.
Never mind roll vs tumble as well.
What we need to look at is
roll/slip vs dracnari breath vs kephera 16% armour etc. We have one race that is clearly way stronger than the other races at demi. Should we not try to make all demigod powers balanced and roughly equal? Part of that is buffing up the weak ones and nerfing down the super strong ones like furri.
Now. Are you able to provide multiple logs showing how someone as a furrikin (piped or otherwise) managed to turn the tide of a battle simply because they could roll out of the room? Evidence that roll is breaking Lusternia would go a long way in fixing it.
If you take a look at pretty much every group combat log you'll see most top combatants using roll to escape death rooms that tumble wouldn't have worked as well in. Not saying tumble wouldn't have saved them but its much easier to counter tumble than it is to counter roll.
Roll goes quicker than many classes basic balance speeds which means if you start a roll as they attack you then you can get out of the room and there is nothing much they can do to counter it. Tumble on the other hand is significantly slower than every classes basic attack speed.
This means that if you tumble even if you time it perfectly any class can see the tumble and have a few seconds to spend countering it. It gives enough time for you to see the tumble start, recover balance from it, jump out the room and gust/springtrap/whatever the target back.
Roll is significantly stronger than tumble.
Never mind roll vs tumble as well.
What we need to look at is
roll/slip vs dracnari breath vs kephera 16% armour etc. We have one race that is clearly way stronger than the other races at demi. Should we not try to make all demigod powers balanced and roughly equal? Part of that is buffing up the weak ones and nerfing down the super strong ones like furri.
None of this is inherently false. However, roll (in this case, wonderpipe furrikin) is locked behind a paywall. It should be faster than tumble, which is not generally locked behind a paywall. I'd also like to argue the case that being able to escape a "death room" with greater ease doesn't make something OP. You're arguing that a person shouldn't be able to escape a room set up to slaughter them by multiple people. If this is the case, I think we also need to look at Night Flight, orgbixes/curio collections, Crowsnest Return, Ghostform, Prismatic, and a slew of other "escape" skills.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Ignore the solo fights and look at the group combat ones @Shaddus
I'd also like to point out that the burden of proof lies on you, not on me. I'm not interested in digging through logs to find every one where someone uses roll, and then deciding whose argument it supports; I'm interested in seeing what proof you are able to supply to support your opinion.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Not breaking the game doesn't mean not a problem. Also being locked behind a paywall doesn't make something justified: If you need a superpowerful ability to justify a 2k credit cost and it's causing a problem... perhaps having a 2k credit cost item/ability is the problem and should go away.
There was an alternative solution added to the bottom of the report for Furrikin.
- Keep normal roll at demigod level + slip [which only works when you have masochism. It will still work for PVE purposes.] - Demigod+ then would have access to ROLL 2 + slip [which works when masochism is down in PVP]
A few of us discussed this and thought this would be the better route to go over whatever else was proposed in comments beforehand and over the original solution which was to switch the two.
I don't think it's fair to people to get rid of roll and hide it behind demigod+ -- roll used to be at level 50 once upon a time and then it got moved to demigod.
Furrikin was never a problem before W O N D E R-land came to town. Just because some of us can afford all these wonderitems/artis for these perks, not everyone can. (and yes, I have a couple of wonderitems I am working on, yes I have artifacts) - but there's still a lot of the playerbase that CAN'T afford these perks or ever will be able to.
We have to think of the whole playerbase - regardless of whether you can dump in $$$$$ or zero - otherwise we're just going to lose more people, and we've already had too much of that within the last year.
Now. Are you able to provide multiple logs showing how someone as a furrikin (piped or otherwise) managed to turn the tide of a battle simply because they could roll out of the room? Evidence that roll is breaking Lusternia would go a long way in fixing it.
If you take a look at pretty much every group combat log you'll see most top combatants using roll to escape death rooms that tumble wouldn't have worked as well in. Not saying tumble wouldn't have saved them but its much easier to counter tumble than it is to counter roll.
Roll goes quicker than many classes basic balance speeds which means if you start a roll as they attack you then you can get out of the room and there is nothing much they can do to counter it. Tumble on the other hand is significantly slower than every classes basic attack speed.
This means that if you tumble even if you time it perfectly any class can see the tumble and have a few seconds to spend countering it. It gives enough time for you to see the tumble start, recover balance from it, jump out the room and gust/springtrap/whatever the target back.
Roll is significantly stronger than tumble.
Never mind roll vs tumble as well.
What we need to look at is
roll/slip vs dracnari breath vs kephera 16% armour etc. We have one race that is clearly way stronger than the other races at demi. Should we not try to make all demigod powers balanced and roughly equal? Part of that is buffing up the weak ones and nerfing down the super strong ones like furri.
None of this is inherently false. However, roll (in this case, wonderpipe furrikin) is locked behind a paywall. It should be faster than tumble, which is not generally locked behind a paywall. I'd also like to argue the case that being able to escape a "death room" with greater ease doesn't make something OP. You're arguing that a person shouldn't be able to escape a room set up to slaughter them by multiple people. If this is the case, I think we also need to look at Night Flight, orgbixes/curio collections, Crowsnest Return, Ghostform, Prismatic, and a slew of other "escape" skills.
Thats why I said make roll demi+. It'd leave furri demi with a good but not crazy power "slip".
EDIT: Also yea op is an exageration. Significantly more powerful than other races powers would be more accurate to say.
Okay, I went back and looked, starting at page 20 and am currently on page 15. I have one example of roll (and it being blocked [a strange force prevents you from moving that way]) where Maligorn was gusted out of the room to safety. [https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/F0H-hQMx] Strangely enough, roll has yet to be brought up as an overly strong problem in these comments at this point in time.
Oh, Maligorn is a furrikin, his logs should have plenty of examples. Let's see here...it looks like after he got truehearing he was able to start a roll that then took him out, during which you had plenty of time to react to him and used a few balances. [spoiler] You begin rolling towards the down. 9800h|100%, 9800m|100%, 7800e|100%, 3p edbk- <65.54m> You may eat another purity dust wafer. 9800h|100%, 9800m|100%, 7800e|100%, 3p edbk- <65.54m>(eat dust) You eat a wafer of purity dust. You feel your blood thickening. 9800h|100%, 9800m|100%, 7800e|100%, 3p edbk- <65.54m> A brownie bound in shadows runs up and tickles your sides. 9800h|100%, 9800m|100%, 7800e|100%, 3p edbk- <65.54m>roll d You must regain balance first. 9800h|100%, 9800m|100%, 7800e|100%, 3p edbk- <65.54m> You bleed 821 health. 8979h|91%, 9800m|100%, 7800e|100%, 3p edbk- <65.54m>(eat chervil)(-821h, 8.4%) Veyils stares at you with a burning intensity. 8979h|91%, 9800m|100%, 7800e|100%, 3p edbk- <65.54m> Veyils plays a grim mandolin of ebony wood and bone, and you cry out as your deaf ears open up to the sound of a high-pitched note. Your ears open up, though you lose your true hearing. You have cured deafness. 8979h|91%, 9800m|100%, 7800e|100%, 3p ebk- <65.54m> You eat a sprig of chervil. (0.115s) 8979h|91%, 9800m|100%, 7800e|100%, 3p ebk- <65.54m>roll d You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils. 8979h|91%, 9800m|100%, 7800e|100%, 3p ebk- <65.54m> [/spoiler]
Oh, he does roll away once, and then...hrm. Nope, that's it. Okay, next log. Oh, okay, here goes the next one. Looks like you managed to get two balances off on him, blanknote and herbbane.
[spoiler] You begin rolling towards the up. 9300h|100%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p edbk- <65.39m> You must regain balance first. 9300h|100%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p edbk- <65.39m>roll u Veyils stares at you with a burning intensity. 9300h|100%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p edbk- <65.39m> With a loud hiss, a bloodthirsty chimaera with skeletal wings spits a stream of foul liquid into your face. Colours fade and everything becomes dark and black. You are afflicted with blindness. 9300h|100%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p edbk- <65.39m> Veyils plays a grim mandolin of ebony wood and bone, and you cry out as your deaf ears open up to the sound of a high-pitched note. Your ears open up, though you lose your true hearing. You have cured deafness. 9300h|100%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m> You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils. 9300h|100%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m>roll u You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils. 9300h|100%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m>roll u (m&mf): Warning, lag detected (while doing stun) roll u roll u Tarken stares at you with a burning intensity. 9300h|100%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m> You are no longer immune from stun. An armoured bat stabs you with a deadly stinger attached to its bone armour. A sense of extreme nausea washes over you. You bleed 699 health. 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m>(-699h, 7.5%) Hundreds of tiny stings attack your body for a brief moment. You shrug off the effects of the poison. Wounds open up all over your body and you start to bleed. You suddenly feel lightheaded. 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m> You may drink more lucidity slush potion. 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m>roll u You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils. 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m> You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils. 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m> You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils. 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m> You may eat another purity dust wafer. You may take another puff of soothing steam. 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m>(eat faeleaf) Your blood refuses to clot. 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m>(eat chervil) You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils. 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m>roll u You eat a stalk of faeleaf. Blessed sight returns to you. You have cured blindness. (1.465s) 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m> You eat a sprig of chervil. (0.25s) 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m> Tarken clenches his fists and grits his teeth. 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m> You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils. 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m> Falaeron eats a wafer of purity dust. 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m> Falaeron eats a sprig of chervil. 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>roll u You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils. 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>roll u You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils. 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m> Enadonella clenches her fists and grits her teeth. 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m> Veyils stands up and stretches her arms out wide. 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m> Veyils stares at you with a burning intensity. 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m> You are afflicted with herbbane. Mumbling softly to herself, Veyils points a finger at you, and you are gripped by the undulating image of burning herbs. Yellow smoke leaks out of Veyils's ears. 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m> Veyils clenches her fists and grits her teeth. 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m> Veyils takes a long drag off her pipe. 8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>roll u roll u Tarken raises his arms and dances around you, spinning faster and faster. With each pass around you, he shimmers with a dark beauty while your thoughts become cloudier and cloudier. 8601h|92%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>(-2029m, 21.8%) Her eyes glowing a fiery red, a homunculus resembling a deformed orclach looks at you, quickly looks away, then looks back at you with a malicious glint in her eye. Part of your mind snaps and breaks and a temporary insanity creeps in. 8601h|92%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>(sip lucidity) You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils. 9300h|100%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>(+699h, 7.5%) You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils. 9300h|100%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>roll u You take a drink of lucidity slush from a marble furrikin vial. You no longer have any temporary insanity. (0.143s) 9300h|100%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>roll u You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils. 9300h|100%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m> You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils. 9300h|100%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>roll u roll u You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils. 9300h|100%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m> You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils. 9300h|100%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m> Enadonella stands up and stretches her arms out wide. 9300h|100%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m> Falaeron takes a drink from a frost-blue vial of sapphiric sky lilies. 9300h|100%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m> Your roll takes you out of the room. [/spoiler]
Now I'm back in February of 2017 and still haven't found these logs of top tier combatants using roll to escape, only two examples of Maligorn rolling away from you wherein you were able to get multiple balances off. I'm not even seeing roll used in wargames.
In fact, if you can't provide any logs of your own use, it looks as though Maligorn's the only person to attempt rolling despite a large number of top-tier combatants within this thread you've pointed us towards. I'm in 2016 and on page 4 now, having gone through 16 pages of comments and logs, and never once was roll mentioned as a problem within that time or used by anyone besides Maligorn, so I really can't agree with you on roll's strength.
If a roll/tumble is started and p5 is then put in place, I kinda feel like that's a bug. #differentthread
In fact, it seems like you have a free/low power counter to an "op racial skill"
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Yeah, Wonderpipe is really the major problem here (though again, some races are a problem even without the pipe).
Short of just removing the awful artifact, what if the amanuensis power either: -Didn't interact with the Pendant of Divine Spark at all, such that you get one power level down from your actual level, not from your highest level of power. -Gave you 2 levels down of the chosen race (so, level 75 instead of demi for those with the pendant).
Comments
Did anyone buy a pipe for furrikin and only for furrikin? If so, I can see that person feeling like it is a nerf to them. At the same time that is a huge price to lock yourself into just one thing, and would seem to justify the assertion that the problem is with furrikin to boot...
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Meanwhile, what happens to the people with the wonderpipe? Probably all go lucidian for the free power regen. Or lobo for the vitals regen. They *will not care* - as this thread is showing - that an entire race and an entire sect of people will have their game experience invariably altered because of the "Haves".
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
Your giving powerful skills to classes that dont normally have access to them. By your own logic there thats a problem.
Im fine with nerfing the pipe.
Irregardless of what you do with the pipe we should also nerf furrikin.
Totally ignoring the pipe and just looking at furrikin vs every other race. Not a single other race has demi powers anywhere near as good as furrikin for pvp. Its a clear imbalance thats easy to fix.
EDIT: Clarity and people read capitals in shouts.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
No thank you. That is a bit of an unreasonable approach. We have 1 single outlying race with furrikin that is too good and about 4-5 races that are just right and the rest are junk. We should nerf furrikin down to the good level and buff up the others.
It makes more sense to me to nerf the one op race and buff the weak races to being on a good level.You can italics all you want but that isn't super productive. Maybe you could offer suggestions for the other races to buff them instead? If they are provided a list of easy-to-do things maybe it will be more appealing than "buff all the other races, all on you, good luck".
I feel like this is true, but it's also true that you can't or shouldn't consider something OP just because you don't like fighting against it. Is it truly OP if you spend 2k credits just to have slightly faster writhing + tumble? Aside from a handful of outliers, Lusternia has been and always will be pay2win.
Slightly faster writhing isn't OP. I mean, I could see people complaining if the furrikin power was "dodge web", like Achaeans have in one of their artifacts. It's not, though.
Its not the writhe thing. Its roll. Tumbling out of a hostile room is pretty much the main thing to do to survive. Roll buffs that speed massivly. Faster writhe time on top is a nice bonus to have as well for sure but the big thing in furri is roll.
Furrikin dramatically increases your ability to survive group combat, and I mean dramatically its a massive buff. No other race comes even close to offering such a strong offensive or defensive buff. (at Demi)
I say this as someone who uses it, being furrikin has saved me and won fights. Lots of times because its pretty op.
My suggestion was split slip and roll. Slip at demi, roll at demi+
Now. Are you able to provide multiple logs showing how someone as a furrikin (piped or otherwise) managed to turn the tide of a battle simply because they could roll out of the room? Evidence that roll is breaking Lusternia would go a long way in fixing it.
Pre overhaul you could get faster than roll speeds on tumble anyway by shrinking your size. Pre overhaul roll is a totally different thing to post overhaul roll.
You're still welcome to provide numbers and/or logs supporting your claim
If you take a look at pretty much every group combat log you'll see most top combatants using roll to escape death rooms that tumble wouldn't have worked as well in. Not saying tumble wouldn't have saved them but its much easier to counter tumble than it is to counter roll.
Roll goes quicker than many classes basic balance speeds which means if you start a roll as they attack you then you can get out of the room and there is nothing much they can do to counter it. Tumble on the other hand is significantly slower than every classes basic attack speed.
This means that if you tumble even if you time it perfectly any class can see the tumble and have a few seconds to spend countering it. It gives enough time for you to see the tumble start, recover balance from it, jump out the room and gust/springtrap/whatever the target back.
Roll is significantly stronger than tumble.
Never mind roll vs tumble as well.
What we need to look at is
roll/slip vs dracnari breath vs kephera 16% armour etc. We have one race that is clearly way stronger than the other races at demi. Should we not try to make all demigod powers balanced and roughly equal? Part of that is buffing up the weak ones and nerfing down the super strong ones like furri.
Ignore the solo fights and look at the group combat ones @Shaddus
None of this is inherently false. However, roll (in this case, wonderpipe furrikin) is locked behind a paywall. It should be faster than tumble, which is not generally locked behind a paywall. I'd also like to argue the case that being able to escape a "death room" with greater ease doesn't make something OP. You're arguing that a person shouldn't be able to escape a room set up to slaughter them by multiple people. If this is the case, I think we also need to look at Night Flight, orgbixes/curio collections, Crowsnest Return, Ghostform, Prismatic, and a slew of other "escape" skills.
- Keep normal roll at demigod level + slip [which only works when you have masochism. It will still work for PVE purposes.]
- Demigod+ then would have access to ROLL 2 + slip [which works when masochism is down in PVP]
A few of us discussed this and thought this would be the better route to go over whatever else was proposed in comments beforehand and over the original solution which was to switch the two.
I don't think it's fair to people to get rid of roll and hide it behind demigod+ -- roll used to be at level 50 once upon a time and then it got moved to demigod.
Furrikin was never a problem before W O N D E R-land came to town.
Just because some of us can afford all these wonderitems/artis for these perks, not everyone can. (and yes, I have a couple of wonderitems I am working on, yes I have artifacts) - but there's still a lot of the playerbase that CAN'T afford these perks or ever will be able to.
We have to think of the whole playerbase - regardless of whether you can dump in $$$$$ or zero - otherwise we're just going to lose more people, and we've already had too much of that within the last year.
EDIT: Also yea op is an exageration. Significantly more powerful than other races powers would be more accurate to say.
Oh, Maligorn is a furrikin, his logs should have plenty of examples. Let's see here...it looks like after he got truehearing he was able to start a roll that then took him out, during which you had plenty of time to react to him and used a few balances.
[spoiler]
You begin rolling towards the down.
9800h|100%, 9800m|100%, 7800e|100%, 3p edbk- <65.54m>
You may eat another purity dust wafer.
9800h|100%, 9800m|100%, 7800e|100%, 3p edbk- <65.54m>(eat dust)
You eat a wafer of purity dust.
You feel your blood thickening.
9800h|100%, 9800m|100%, 7800e|100%, 3p edbk- <65.54m>
A brownie bound in shadows runs up and tickles your sides.
9800h|100%, 9800m|100%, 7800e|100%, 3p edbk- <65.54m>roll d
You must regain balance first.
9800h|100%, 9800m|100%, 7800e|100%, 3p edbk- <65.54m>
You bleed 821 health.
8979h|91%, 9800m|100%, 7800e|100%, 3p edbk- <65.54m>(eat chervil)(-821h, 8.4%)
Veyils stares at you with a burning intensity.
8979h|91%, 9800m|100%, 7800e|100%, 3p edbk- <65.54m>
Veyils plays a grim mandolin of ebony wood and bone, and you cry out as your deaf ears open up to
the sound of a high-pitched note.
Your ears open up, though you lose your true hearing.
You have cured deafness.
8979h|91%, 9800m|100%, 7800e|100%, 3p ebk- <65.54m>
You eat a sprig of chervil. (0.115s)
8979h|91%, 9800m|100%, 7800e|100%, 3p ebk- <65.54m>roll d
You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils.
8979h|91%, 9800m|100%, 7800e|100%, 3p ebk- <65.54m>
[/spoiler]
Oh, he does roll away once, and then...hrm. Nope, that's it. Okay, next log. Oh, okay, here goes the next one. Looks like you managed to get two balances off on him, blanknote and herbbane.
[spoiler]
You begin rolling towards the up.
9300h|100%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p edbk- <65.39m>
You must regain balance first.
9300h|100%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p edbk- <65.39m>roll u
Veyils stares at you with a burning intensity.
9300h|100%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p edbk- <65.39m>
With a loud hiss, a bloodthirsty chimaera with skeletal wings spits a stream of foul liquid into
your face.
Colours fade and everything becomes dark and black.
You are afflicted with blindness.
9300h|100%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p edbk- <65.39m>
Veyils plays a grim mandolin of ebony wood and bone, and you cry out as your deaf ears open up to
the sound of a high-pitched note.
Your ears open up, though you lose your true hearing.
You have cured deafness.
9300h|100%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m>
You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils.
9300h|100%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m>roll u
You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils.
9300h|100%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m>roll u
(m&mf): Warning, lag detected (while doing stun)
roll u
roll u
Tarken stares at you with a burning intensity.
9300h|100%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m>
You are no longer immune from stun.
An armoured bat stabs you with a deadly stinger attached to its bone armour.
A sense of extreme nausea washes over you.
You bleed 699 health.
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m>(-699h, 7.5%)
Hundreds of tiny stings attack your body for a brief moment.
You shrug off the effects of the poison.
Wounds open up all over your body and you start to bleed.
You suddenly feel lightheaded.
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m>
You may drink more lucidity slush potion.
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m>roll u
You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils.
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m>
You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils.
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m>
You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils.
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m>
You may eat another purity dust wafer.
You may take another puff of soothing steam.
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m>(eat faeleaf)
Your blood refuses to clot.
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m>(eat chervil)
You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils.
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ebk- <65.39m>roll u
You eat a stalk of faeleaf.
Blessed sight returns to you.
You have cured blindness. (1.465s)
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>
You eat a sprig of chervil. (0.25s)
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>
Tarken clenches his fists and grits his teeth.
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>
You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils.
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>
Falaeron eats a wafer of purity dust.
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>
Falaeron eats a sprig of chervil.
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>roll u
You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils.
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>roll u
You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils.
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>
Enadonella clenches her fists and grits her teeth.
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>
Veyils stands up and stretches her arms out wide.
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>
Veyils stares at you with a burning intensity.
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>
You are afflicted with herbbane.
Mumbling softly to herself, Veyils points a finger at you, and you are gripped by the undulating
image of burning herbs.
Yellow smoke leaks out of Veyils's ears.
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>
Veyils clenches her fists and grits her teeth.
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>
Veyils takes a long drag off her pipe.
8601h|92%, 7204m|77%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>roll u
roll u
Tarken raises his arms and dances around you, spinning faster and faster. With each pass around you,
he shimmers with a dark beauty while your thoughts become cloudier and cloudier.
8601h|92%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>(-2029m, 21.8%)
Her eyes glowing a fiery red, a homunculus resembling a deformed orclach looks at you, quickly looks
away, then looks back at you with a malicious glint in her eye.
Part of your mind snaps and breaks and a temporary insanity creeps in.
8601h|92%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>(sip lucidity)
You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils.
9300h|100%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>(+699h, 7.5%)
You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils.
9300h|100%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>roll u
You take a drink of lucidity slush from a marble furrikin vial.
You no longer have any temporary insanity. (0.143s)
9300h|100%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>roll u
You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils.
9300h|100%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>
You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils.
9300h|100%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>roll u
roll u
You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils.
9300h|100%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>
You find you cannot bear to part from Veyils.
9300h|100%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>
Enadonella stands up and stretches her arms out wide.
9300h|100%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>
Falaeron takes a drink from a frost-blue vial of sapphiric sky lilies.
9300h|100%, 5175m|55%, 7300e|100%, 10p ek- <65.39m>
Your roll takes you out of the room.
[/spoiler]
Now I'm back in February of 2017 and still haven't found these logs of top tier combatants using roll to escape, only two examples of Maligorn rolling away from you wherein you were able to get multiple balances off. I'm not even seeing roll used in wargames.
In fact, if you can't provide any logs of your own use, it looks as though Maligorn's the only person to attempt rolling despite a large number of top-tier combatants within this thread you've pointed us towards. I'm in 2016 and on page 4 now, having gone through 16 pages of comments and logs, and never once was roll mentioned as a problem within that time or used by anyone besides Maligorn, so I really can't agree with you on roll's strength.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
In fact, it seems like you have a free/low power counter to an "op racial skill"
Short of just removing the awful artifact, what if the amanuensis power either:
-Didn't interact with the Pendant of Divine Spark at all, such that you get one power level down from your actual level, not from your highest level of power.
-Gave you 2 levels down of the chosen race (so, level 75 instead of demi for those with the pendant).