Furrikin & Wonderpipe Combo Discussion

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: Tweets VIII: Knocks Me Off My Tweet.

Karlach

Furrikin are not the problem, people will just use other strong combos.

Nerf the pipe instead.

Tylwyth

Karlach said:

Furrikin are not the problem, people will just use other strong combos.

Nerf the pipe instead.

Wrong thread?

Karlach

Tylwyth said:

Karlach said:

Furrikin are not the problem, people will just use other strong combos.

Nerf the pipe instead.

Wrong thread?

Nope.

Enya

Karlach said:

Furrikin are not the problem, people will just use other strong combos.

Nerf the pipe instead.

While they may not be the problem, they're still a problem. Do both.

Karlach

Enya said:

Karlach said:

Furrikin are not the problem, people will just use other strong combos.

Nerf the pipe instead.

While they may not be the problem, they're still a problem. Do both.

If the pipe doesn't exist then they're not an issue. You take Furrikin for those perks and miss out on others, congratulations you're a slightly slower acrobat.

When people can take those perks + other strong perks on top it becomes a problem. If you go Furrikin you miss out on one of Lucidian/Igasho/Taurian/Dracnari or Viscanti.

Furrikin having a slightly faster writhe (but slower than contort) and a roll that they've always had as a perk are not issues if you can't double up on races.

Enya

Karlach said:

Enya said:

Karlach said:

Furrikin are not the problem, people will just use other strong combos.

Nerf the pipe instead.

While they may not be the problem, they're still a problem. Do both.

When people can take those perks + other strong perks on top it becomes a problem. If you go Furrikin you miss out on one of Lucidian/Igasho/Taurian/Dracnari or Viscanti.

Hey look, a problem.

Karlach

Enya said:

Karlach said:

Enya said:

Karlach said:

Furrikin are not the problem, people will just use other strong combos.

Nerf the pipe instead.

While they may not be the problem, they're still a problem. Do both.

When people can take those perks + other strong perks on top it becomes a problem. If you go Furrikin you miss out on one of Lucidian/Igasho/Taurian/Dracnari or Viscanti.

Hey look, a problem.

Race perks being strong isn't a problem, that's the point of racial perks. Just because other ones are undertuned, mostly thanks to artifact bloat, doesn't make the ones that stand up to time a problem.

Complaining about things being strong is asinine, the point is they're meant to be tools to kill (mostly) each other. If everything is as weak as kittens, it's a really boring game.

Steingrim

Karlach said:

Enya said:

Karlach said:

Furrikin are not the problem, people will just use other strong combos.

Nerf the pipe instead.

While they may not be the problem, they're still a problem. Do both.

If the pipe doesn't exist then they're not an issue. You take Furrikin for those perks and miss out on others, congratulations you're a slightly slower acrobat.

When people can take those perks + other strong perks on top it becomes a problem. If you go Furrikin you miss out on one of Lucidian/Igasho/Taurian/Dracnari or Viscanti.

Furrikin having a slightly faster writhe (but slower than contort) and a roll that they've always had as a perk are not issues if you can't double up on races.

At best you've made a case that it is possible they might be OP and not a case that they are OP. So do you actually have an example of a person using a pipe being an actual problem in any scenario?

Karlach

I'm not seeing how they're OP (I assume you mean Furrikin, not the pipe). You have a race that can sort of but not quite do what 2/5ths of the classes in this game can do, that's strong, it's not overpowered.

The problem with the pipe is it means not only can everyone do that, but they can gain the effects of a second set of races at demi+ Without the pipe it's not an issue, you want advantages of one race? You have to pick that one race, you want to be another? Tough.

The same goes for people who pipe into taurian doublehit or drac/viscanti proc breaths. It breaks the balance of the perk system, because you aren't forced to pick one race, you get to pick two.

Yet people would rather nerf one race, and remove something that has been baseline free for all players of that race since before the racial overhaul, rather than fix the more glaring problem.

Versalean

I don't have a pipe, and I don't furrikin, so with no horse in this race I'm simply gonna state that Karlach's argument is making the most sense here. ETA - The response to "Furrikin with pipes are OP" isn't to screw the furrikin without pipes.  

Deichtine

Furrikin demigod power is too good for a demigod power. No other demigod power is as strong as that for combat. The only other powers that are as good as furrikin demigod power are demi+ powers.

Make furrikin demigod powers demi+ powers and pop you've just balanced the race.

Deichtine

Its not that slip and tumble themselves are op its that they are much much stronger than any other demigod power. And we want races to be balanced.

Tremula

Then raise the power level of demigod powers to the point where demigod feels like an achievement and not just so you are one step closer (and 1K credits away) to desirable powers. Furrikin alone being slippery is not the problem, it's when it's included with other things and were it not for the wonderpipe this would not be a problem.

ETA: So there's no illusions about what I'm saying: I want equity in power so I actually want to play other races. I want wonderpipe nerfed to lessen the growing chasm between the haves and the have-nots.

Maligorn

x

Deichtine said:

Its not that slip and tumble themselves are op its that they are much much stronger than any other demigod power. And we want races to be balanced.

I really think that's a subjective argument, and I raise you pretty much all the races Karlach listed.

Karlach

I don't agree that they're much stronger than the aforementioned t4 alternatives. I certainly disagree in the case of roll.

The change won't make Furrikin balanced with them at tier 4 and down, it'll make them undesirable.

So we end up nerfing another race, then another when all we should do is address the problem at the core. Nerf the pipe to L3 and down, or change max pipe to something else entirely.

Sure beats taking something from f2players that hasn't been an issue for well over 12 years.

Aeldra

I would not argue "its not an issue because its been there for x years". Their impact are comparable to the relevant skills in acrobatics, no more or no less, but ultimately it is beside the point of this wonderpipe discussion.

I'm not a fan of nerfing a 2000 credit artifact ability, because for a good deal of people, the ability was the reason to invest into that artifact up to that point and you don't really want to go down the refund spiral. I personally would be considering to ask for a refund for those 20 crystal simply because a nerf would make the pipe seem a lot less desirable. (not saying that the rest of the pipe is useless, just stressing that the ability is, in my opinion, one of the major drawing points).

Changing the pipe's amanesis to something useful and less problem causing though, I would definitely support ( and favour above nerfing races, there's too many race perks that feel meh already ). Sadly I do not really have any ideas of what could be chosen as a suitable replacement.

Kalikai

For the sake of discussion - Assuming the wonderpipe is not changed (and the recent report was generally opposed by envoys, which included Karlach's suggested solution here), what would you suggest is done? It seems that the general consensus is that the wonderpipe and furrikin together are an issue.

Would the proposed furrikin change of making roll/slip function for PvE at demi while gating the PvP functions to demi+ fix the issue? Would similar changes to other races to make demi abilites more PvE focused and demi+ more PvP focused be something worth looking into? I can see switching both dracnari/viscanti demi/demi+ powers to achieve this. 

Disclaimer - this isn't promising that anything will be done one way or the other, it's simply for the sake of further discussion.

Xenthos

If general demi powers were made more PvE I would have more options to select from as secondaries; I think it might be interesting to look into, at least.

But you then do have the issue where you are gating PvP racials behind a paywall, so if it is pursued I would suggest not making it a universal standard.

Enya

 It screws with rp to have uberraces and recognized much weaker ones,  requiring tortured workarounds to deal with. Frankly I don't think players should really be needing to weigh racial rp choices against strong winner races.

Frankly, id prefer racial powers to be weakened to similar levels instead of buffed way up but because changing race is (and should be) difficult and expensive, and I think the game would be more interesting if those choices were more rp driven rather than relating to powers requiring the option to ignore/shortcut racial identity (hats, pins, pipe).


The pipe is just an obvious and pressing problem further pushing the edge of  racial powergaming for the credit whales in the game. Its "the" problem right now, but its not the only problem.

Enya

The big paywall for useful racial powers is.. bad, too. Strong powers on some races might not be so big of a deal if it wasn't just on some few in those races, and a smaller few who can choose races at will to maximize benefit AND pick 2 freely AND use a race hat.

Karlach

I absolutely disagree with the concept of making t4 PvE and t5 PvP as a general rule of thumb for all races for the exact reasons mentioned regarding paywall.

I like the idea of masochism to require slip (roll really isn't a problem) at T4, and then remove any requirements at t5. Generally my issue isn't "it's been around for ages, and wasn't a problem then" and more "I am strongly against removing things players have had for free and slapping a paywall on them"

I still think the pipe presents other problems, especially if we start looking at weaker T4's and bringing them up to scratch. If we're insisting on retaining anamnesis, it shouldn't be a permanent passive, and more a charge/duration feature.

Alternatively change it so that anamnesis has a select pool of unique perks you can choose from, instead of adding a whole second race. That way we aren't nerfing f2p players for the sake of an artifact.

Deichtine

Drop furrikin demi+ power just get rid of it.

Make slip demi, and make roll demi+.

@Maligorn To me nothing beats slip+roll together. None of the other demigod powers that karlach mentioned come even slightly close to that. Demi+ is a totally different matter but thats the issue Furrikin get 2 super good powers at demi

@Tremula I'm all for buffing up the other races but you'll have to really really buff every race to match furrikins power level. To me lobo/faeling/elfen are in pretty good places atm, not too strong, not too weak. Races like furrikin are too strong and most of the other races like aslaran/dwarf/etc are really weak.

Ignoring Demi+ races atm are

Only up to demi:
Furrikin: Amazing Demi racial that dramatically increases your survival in group combat by a mile.
Aslaran: Junk but may turn in ok with current report.
Dwarf: Junk, you have to be too drunk to make use of the resists. Plus the 13/13 system can make it totally useless for classes with high resists anyway.
Dracnari/viscanti: Minor damage proc, pretty small but every little adds in, decent races.
Elfen/faeling: Good. Would say this is a good level to aim all races to be.
Human:Niche use for karma farmers and handy less essence on death loss.
Igasho: Decent at demi+ but nothing special. You get a free Beast gust you can stack ontop of beast gust and normal gust.
Illithoid: Best race for influcing, niche use.
Kephera: Niche use for non-tailoring bards and monks, gives 16% armour which is useless for most classes.
Krokani:Report in to improve it.
Loboshigaru: Great regen buff, nice race I think and similar to elfen/faeling in being a decent balance to aim for.
Lucidian: Free power regen, no direct effect on combat but still nifty to have.
Merian: Junk.
Mugwump: Bit eh but ok in specific circumstances.
Orclach: Not a bad concept its got a bit of a similar issue as the dwarf in that its useless for folks with high resists anyway but Orclach at least lets you use your resists without massive command denial.
Tae'dae: Junk, its a damage ability thats weaker than pretty much every class damage ability.
Taurian: Rng chance to hit with a swing punch of shield stun. RNG makes it a bit iffy but overall a decent option.

No race has anywhere near the buffs that furrikin gives at demigod.

Now factoring in demi+ is a totally different list. Lucidian and Igasho top that list by a stretch over most of the others and I'd be cool with nerfing Lucidians powerregen and igashos unstopable carry. Just as I think that we need to nerf furrikins demi power to bring furrikin to a good racial balance.

Deichtine

Lets face it the Racial overhaul to try and make all races balanced was pretty weak, there are clear winners and losers and dramatic power levels between the races as it stands right now. Even after a few years and tweaks to reduce the power of some.

Xenthos

What are your refund plans for people who paid real cash for that specific power, as-is, and currently suffer from having way more credits and crystals than they know what to do with?

You are suggesting significant nerfs to a very expensive item.  They do not tend to nerf these without taking into consideration the people who bought them, and I for one don't care about any of the lesser pipe powers and would not build a pipe for them (just like I never built the wings or the horn).

Suggesting a nerf is all well and good, but without a plan that satisfies both admin & the purchasers they are traditionally very hesitant.  Sometimes artifacts really do need an overhaul (see: old warrior runes), but when pushing for these I generally try to offer ideas for how to ensure that the people who paid for the old thing were not feeling like they got completely screwed.

Deichtine

I don't see an issue with the pipe itself. Having two racials isnt that big a deal if you ignore furrikin.

The problem is furrikin not the pipe.

Deichtine

Karlach said:

If the pipe doesn't exist then they're not an issue. You take Furrikin for those perks and miss out on others, congratulations you're a slightly slower acrobat.

Furrikin is an issue on its own even if we ignore the pipe.

Karlach

If you change Furrikin at t4 you're still nerfing the pipe. Are you asking for a refund there too?

Changing amanesis to something other than its current state nerfs the pipe (or buffs it depending on the perks it offers as an alternative to the current system) changing furrikin nerfs the pipe and nerfs people who don't own a pipe as well, when they aren't the problem.

Xenthos

I do not consider changing Furrikin to be nerfing the pipe, personally.  The pipe is still doing exactly what it is intended to be doing (giving access to existing demi powers).

Karlach

Xenthos said:

I do not consider changing Furrikin to be nerfing the pipe, personally.  The pipe is still doing exactly what it is intended to be doing (giving access to existing demi powers).

But the strength of it's ability is less effective, due to not having options as strong as it did before.

It's like being use to flying business class and then getting bumped down to economy. Hey, you're still flying, but your seat still got nerfed.

Karlach

Deichtine said:

Karlach said:

If the pipe doesn't exist then they're not an issue. You take Furrikin for those perks and miss out on others, congratulations you're a slightly slower acrobat.

Furrikin is an issue on its own even if we ignore the pipe.

And here we disagree. Furrikin without the pipe wasn't a problem, because you had other races to choose from, we didn't have everyone going Furrikin when the overhaul hit. We didn't have them going Furrikin when Lucidian got nerfed.

Furrikin is a knockoff version of acrobatics, with somersault and a halfway between contort and writhe. It's no more an issue than 2/5ths of the classes in this game having access to the real thing.