I also want to go on the record as saying that the serverside pathfinding should absolutely NOT be disabled in important event areas! The entire point of having a serverside version is to make it that you don't have to download a client-side script to handle your navigation and thereby make the game more accessible to new players. If you make it so that serverside works fine for normal use, but breaks whenever anything important is going on, you're not fixing the problem. You're just making it so that clientside autowalkers are necessary to everyone who wants to win events. It's exactly as terrible an idea as turning off SSC in a new area would be.
I also want to go on the record as saying that the serverside pathfinding should absolutely NOT be disabled in important event areas!
I think we were at something of an advantage, because when we were brainstorming possible twists for Ascension, the idea of an unmappable / new area came up. Some small contingencies were put in place to deal with that.
We also discussed the possibility of the event being done without GMCP, and I'm glad that the Divine aren't as wicked as we thought they might be.
"hmm, this seems to give an unfair advantage/is not the spirit of the Final Ascension"
Ascension has always been discovering advantages and keeping them to yourself though.
Using a basic game command that is taught to newbies isn't some great hidden secret that lacked documentation, it's entirely easy to assume that if you thought of it, someone else has too (though as we've now learned that's a flawed assumption)
At what point were they expected to assume it was a bug, over having a better strategy than other teams (and not to overlook other mechanical advantages due to skillsets) Yes now with the power of hindsight we can say "ok that was the deciding factor" but during the event?
You're saying that players should surrender their strategy to everyone else if they build up a lead, why? It's a contest with a prize at the end, this isn't the school sports day where there are no winners and everyone gets a participation trophy.
They used a command to do exactly what it said on the tin, if it was doing something it normally shouldn't (example if it instantly teleported you there for no balance) then sure that's an obvious bug.
Ultimately anyone could have found it, although knowing some people in Glomdoring and their well documented history of trying everything, usually until it breaks, it's not surprising that they thought of it first.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I also want to go on the record as saying that the serverside pathfinding should absolutely NOT be disabled in important event areas!
I think we were at something of an advantage, because when we were brainstorming possible twists for Ascension, the idea of an unmappable / new area came up. Some small contingencies were put in place to deal with that.
We also discussed the possibility of the event being done without GMCP, and I'm glad that the Divine aren't as wicked as we thought they might be.
You might have, my mapper was like "you're on your own, have fun". I will never ignore @Kalaneya's theories again.
@Malarious : I don't know what Magnagora did, but our alliance left you alone for the most part. I think you made up a lot of ground in the stretch where we were killing Veyils consecutively. Then towards the last bit I even voiced that we should not hinder you, and at least try to let you win if we had to. But in the end you were still behind by a huge margin (I mean, effectively the equivalent of you going another 45 minutes at it, if you assume a constant rate).
People who don't use serverside autowalking didn't notice the bug at all - either they don't have an autowalker to be effected by the bug, or their autowalker worked exactly as it usually did in a newly discovered area; awful until you fully mapped the place and then normal.
To be clear, I don't believe it was possible to generate a client-side map function. I took a 10-minute break from walking aimlessly to try everything I could to get the Mudlet mapper to work. I even created new profiles to download a fresh map and went through the mapper wiki. And I had already tried using PATH FIND and came to the (intended!) conclusion that we were not supposed to have access to IG mapping functions. I was convinced that Gloms had found a way to client-side map the area, only to learn about the PATH SHORTEST issue later.
From my own standpoint, I don't blame Veyils at all for using PATH SHORTEST or for not realizing it was a bug. I'm just highlighting the fact that it was an issue that grossly affected the outcome of the event. So, departing from the strange argument over whether it is a bug, an abuse of a bug, l33t tactics, etc...
The crux of my grievance is more critical of the Admin decision-making and in the execution thereof. A conscious decision was made that players should not be privy to the new rules/mechanics of certain contests - Chaos, Harmony, Death, and Final. Presumably, the intent was to surprise the players with new twists, and/or to introduce critical-thinking and adaptability as a determining factor in who won those events. These are fair intentions; on the whole, everyone agrees that the changes were "interesting". And in the cases of Harmony and Death, everyone seems happy with the changes made and their execution.
But when you examine the backlash from Chaos and Final, to me this emphasizes why that decision is wrong. "Bugs" or oversights affected the outcomes, and the players are left to call for some re-do or to cry foul or to criticize why this was allowed to happen. In a game as complex as Lusternia, we collectively - Admin and players - must accept the reality that bugs will occur. Despite this, we still can mitigate 1) the risk of those bugs/imbalances being present and 2) the impact of those bugs.
To the point of bug detection/imbalances: if players were given forewarning and the opportunity to consider the implications of the new mechanics, then those players would have had a basis to express concerns, seek clarifications, and to plan for or test the limits of those configurations - all before being thrust into a high pressure, high stakes competition. As the most real example: if I was informed that the environment was going to be a maze, I probably would have gone into a maze area and tested the heck out of what that could entail, or I could have sought clarification if we would have the ability to use pathing. And yes, I'm sure (or sure hope) that Admin test simulations of these events were done beforehand, but not factoring in player numbers and ingenuity into the equation makes that a very limited and insufficient test environment. I won't even get into the balance concerns of the various skills/artifacts within that unannounced competitive environment (e.g., stealth bypassing rubble, or having to buy arti goggles mid-event to detect the NPC flying), since that could be a whole thread in and of itself.
To the point of the bug impact: if the developers double down on the gamble that your event is going to run "good enough" without user feedback or representative pilot runs, then you should be prepared to monitor and hot fix issues as they arise. This is where I find the most heartache from Final Ascension, in that the obvious disparity was not seemingly detected or investigated. I realize that some Admin attention was given to fixing lag issues and operating Ghani, but I expect culpability in monitoring fair competition during the event above everything else. And moreover, even if the issue was fixed mid-event, I have serious doubts that there would have been an attempt to facilitate fair resolution to the actual scoring, as was arguably evidenced in the Chaos event and in prior years' events.
To summarize my point regarding the changes: your intent to surprise the players has been dwarfed by the realized potential to upset them, in that they had no conduit for feedback over the fairness (or enjoyment) of the competition, and factors beyond their control highly influenced the outcome of the events, without apparent resolution.
When you try something new, there is always opportunity for unexpected flaws and interactions. I fully acknowledge and appreciate this; the fear of failure should never inhibit our drive for innovation. And I agree with a lot of what Ciaran said, in that the intention of these changes was good and it's refreshing for the game. But at the same time, I feel we are incumbent to maintain responsibility to do the best we can, yet still accept culpability for our potential flaws - by design (the frustrating mechanics, and the bug) and by execution (no player input, and then not monitoring/fixing it). I think players are frustrated with the lack of transparency, the perceived failure of intervention/resolution, and the lack of apology/lessons learned thereafter. Maybe you can still offer some concessions to the latter, or give us some insight to rectify the bad feelings. Far, far worse than losing is feeling cheated.
Concessions? A majority of the losing side is blaming the admin and repeatedly saying that the admin is biased. I wouldn't reward that.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I don't think your reference to some vocal minority on informal chat groups is a fair basis for dismissing my points. I didn't say anything about admin bias. And I'm not looking for some "reward", just some acknowledgement that our real concerns are at least heard and are considered for the future. The Admin asked for feedback on this event, and that should come with the acceptance that it's not all "kumbayah, praise be" on our end. The Admin could at least admit that there were problems and unintended receptions, despite good intentions.
I don't think your reference to some vocal minority on informal chat groups is a fair basis for dismissing my points. I didn't say anything about admin bias. And I'm not looking for some "reward", just some acknowledgement that our real concerns are at least heard and are considered for the future. The Admin asked for feedback on this event, and that should come with the acceptance that it's not all "kumbayah, praise be" on our end. The Admin could at least admit that there were problems and unintended receptions, despite good intentions.
Fair point. I suppose Yarith and Taevyn do constitute a very vocal minority, especially when they haven't been around much all year. I just don't think highly of them for accusing certain admin of bias, and talking about trying to get this year's winner shrubbed "for obvious bug abuse". Maybe I need thicker skin. As for concessions, I'm not sure exactly what you expect. An apology? A "shit happens and we're sorry."? A do-over?
So here you go. I'm sorry, Kelly. I'm sorry that you, and Saoirse, and Taevyn, and Ciaran, and Shamarah, and a handful of others came back for nothing. I'm sorry that you didn't win. I'm sorry that the massive area designed by our hard working admin was a little buggy, and it made you waste your time. I'm sorry that it wasn't tested beforehand to make sure it was fair to everyone who can't adapt to changes. I'm sorry that the tactics you used last time you graced us with your presence didn't work this time around. I'm sorry that the admin tried to make Ascension "Not boring" and switched it up on you. I'm sorry that our admin are human and can't always predict how players can break things or find bugs.
We'll see you next year. Cheers!
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I just wanted to ask, has anyone found a mudlet mapper work around for GMCP not giving the (correct) vnum and area when in the new area? (I ask here cause everyone is here)
I don't know about GMCP, but I have all 3 areas fully client-side mapped now, with roomnums pulled from the ROOMNUM command.
The biggest thing I found was that some rooms seem constant, but some rooms change their names (the main one I noticed it on had two different names it toggled between, but it is possible there are more options). The roomnum from ROOMNUM was always the same, so I could use that to make sure I was in the right place, just can't rely on room name.
Maybe if you quit thinking that all there is to Lusternia is showing up for a few weeks each year to win the big trophy, then you wouldn't feel so bad when you don't win it.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I don't know about GMCP, but I have all 3 areas fully client-side mapped now, with roomnums pulled from the ROOMNUM command.
The biggest thing I found was that some rooms seem constant, but some rooms change their names (the main one I noticed it on had two different names it toggled between, but it is possible there are more options). The roomnum from ROOMNUM was always the same, so I could use that to make sure I was in the right place, just can't rely on room name.
roomnum is ATCP, which makes it really weird GMCP is not working. (I have full maps of the area ready just not reacting to my movement, even manually mapping does not detect me walking to create new rooms.
I guess I am learning atcp today, thanks for the info
@Esoneyuna I've bugged all the GMCP weirdness up there. I've not heard back yet about it, but am hoping most of them are actual bugs. For example the Room List/Add/Remove events are not containing anything there, so I would personally suggest to bug that one as well.
Additionally, can we please keep this discussion civil and not resort to personal resentments? This day's been horrible enough.
So here you go. I'm sorry, Kelly. I'm sorry that you, and Saoirse, and Taevyn, and Ciaran, and Shamarah, and a handful of others came back for nothing. I'm sorry that you didn't win. I'm sorry that the massive area designed by our hard working admin was a little buggy, and it made you waste your time. I'm sorry that it wasn't tested beforehand to make sure it was fair to everyone who can't adapt to changes. I'm sorry that the tactics you used last time you graced us with your presence didn't work this time around. I'm sorry that the admin tried to make Ascension "Not boring" and switched it up on you. I'm sorry that our admin are human and can't always predict how players can break things or find bugs.
We'll see you next year. Cheers!
All right, I'll bite. This mindset - that every admin decision is above criticism by definition - is one of the things that has slowly alienated me from the game. Do admin work hard and put an incredible amount of energy into the game? Sure. But hard work doesn't mean that the result of that work is always the best possible option. Unfortunately, there are a number of people who take any critique of the state of the game as an affront to the admin's hard work. This means that any disagreement with the status quo quickly brings a wave of snide remarks and personal insinuations.
I won't speak for anyone else. There have been times when I have seen people post on forums who I agreed with and who I didn't speak out in support of because I wasn't interested in being bombarded with how-dare-yous. Other times I did post, and quickly regretted it. I don't care who won Ascension this year and I'm not personally invested, but the inability to speak frankly is, honestly, exhausting. I enjoy the rich lore, the RP, and combat of this game, but the meta-conflict is just too stressful. I know that I am not the only one who feels this way. Ultimately, I'm only comfortable saying this because I don't foresee myself logging in as much in the future, and probably won't see many of the replies here.
(clan): Falmiis says, "Aramelise, verb, 1. adorn with many flowers."
Well, I do all my mapping with ROOMNUM these days, since I have no access to GMCP.
Maybe this is another one of those bugs which is impossible to tell is a bug because it is the only command I use. Does GMCP really not work there?
Ok so I went to test this is what I get in gaudi city
{ WrongDir = "s", Info = { map = "www.lusternia.com/irex/maps/clientmap.php?map=142&building=0&level=2 4 2", num = 11380, details = { "the Prime Material Plane", "indoors" }, coords = "142,-8,24,2", desc = "The steady stairway flattens out as it leads to this small circular chamber, roughly six feet in diameter. A thin channel circles the room, brimming with liquid fire that combusts steadily, releasing a flickering light and sweltry heat. The air glows a subtle orange, staining the surroundings similarly and oppressing many colours into shades of amber. A wide archway to the east opens to a balcony, granting the room a glimpse of spectacular view of the city.", name = "Before the Bridge of Kahzadi", environment = "urban", exits = { sw = 11379, w = 11375, nw = 11382 }, area = "the City of Gaudiguch" },
This is what I get in the new area
{ WrongDir = "se", Info = { map = "www.lusternia.com/irex/maps/images/lost.png 2 2", num = 47292, details = { "the Plane of Creation", "outdoors" }, coords = "", desc = "You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.", name = "In a maze", environment = "nothing", exits = { }, area = "the Divine Havens" },
At first look it is an intentional thing they did for a maze, HOWEVER I do not get that when the game map does show the room properly. I think the maze flag is an issue here that either does not do what is intended, or just annoys people that rely on gmcp instead of old fashion triggering (which one has to wonder why do it, only people using mudlet in gmcp will get affected because good old triggering can read the vnums in the map window)
ps. I am not accusing anyone of anything, I am just trying to solve an issue with my mapper, I love you all (as opposed to my character that hates all of you)
So here you go. I'm sorry, Kelly. I'm sorry that you, and Saoirse, and Taevyn, and Ciaran, and Shamarah, and a handful of others came back for nothing. I'm sorry that you didn't win. I'm sorry that the massive area designed by our hard working admin was a little buggy, and it made you waste your time. I'm sorry that it wasn't tested beforehand to make sure it was fair to everyone who can't adapt to changes. I'm sorry that the tactics you used last time you graced us with your presence didn't work this time around. I'm sorry that the admin tried to make Ascension "Not boring" and switched it up on you. I'm sorry that our admin are human and can't always predict how players can break things or find bugs.
We'll see you next year. Cheers!
All right, I'll bite. This mindset - that every admin decision is above criticism by definition - is one of the things that has slowly alienated me from the game. Do admin work hard and put an incredible amount of energy into the game? Sure. But hard work doesn't mean that the result of that work is always the best possible option. Unfortunately, there are a number of people who take any critique of the state of the game as an affront to the admin's hard work. This means that any disagreement with the status quo quickly brings a wave of snide remarks and personal insinuations.
Look. Anyone who actually pays attention to me knows that I'll be the first to congratulate the admin for a job well done, and the first to complain when they make a mistake. I've had to be humble and email apologies to admin before because I went off on a tangent and wrote several paragraphs worth of "omg you suck how could you not notice this" where they could see it. We're all human.
But it's the height of hubris to imply that the admin owe you apologies, or concessions, or whatever word you wish to use, just because something didn't work out right. Unless you have some sort of proof that an admin cheated, don't make that sort of accusation. Unless you have some sort of proof that someone is intentionally and willfully abusing something they know is a bug, don't make that accusation. If something doesn't go your way, quit making excuses as to why it was anyone else's fault but yours.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
But it's the height of hubris to imply that the admin owe you apologies, or concessions, or whatever word you wish to use, just because something didn't work out right. Unless you have some sort of proof that an admin cheated, don't make that sort of accusation. Unless you have some sort of proof that someone is intentionally and willfully abusing something they know is a bug, don't make that accusation. If something doesn't go your way, quit making excuses as to why it was anyone else's fault but yours.
Nobody is making that argument. You're being super caustic to people that are not even claiming that anyone 'cheated'. Chill out.
Did anyone try to use PATH TRACK / PATH FIND on 'our side' and if so, did you see the hint about using PATH SHORTEST?
I know when you use it now in Pandaemonium, if you have a room num, try PATH TRACK/FIND it gives you the hint about path shortest, obviously doesn't work now though since the changelog. I'm just curious to know if there was a hint during the event, and if not, we definitely wouldn't have known - who uses just 'path' to see the syntaxes when they know path track works everywhere else?? Not to mention a lot of people's mappers didn't even work when walking around trying to map -mine included, and I wouldn't even know where to start with what some people did to make it work or at least try.
---
I personally found it confusing and disorientating during Ascension, but I am a sucker for new areas, new beasties and possible lore behind it ,so I'm excited to explore and quest there. (Massive raves for this)
It wasn't just 'new people' that found themselves going 'wtf is going on' - it was literally everyone on both sides. No one knew what was happening or where to go, or how to find their group again. I ended up sitting still and empressing people when they called for it, because I felt that the only thing I was useful for as I could never find/get back to group. If I was in the meld, I could hardly move and called for empress myself just to get out to make some sense of what was going on.
I was unsure about posting, to be honest, from seeing the reactions of both 'sides' when legit feedback is given - which, by the way, was ASKED for BY the admin.
Boy, this thread blew up more than I realized! I'd just like to mention that everyone has valid points, that it's fine to constructively critique the admin, that there may have been unexpected bumps in the road (i.e., pathfinding), but despite all that, I was in general really pleased with the Ascension. You have no idea how stressed many of us were, hoping there were enough clues to tip you off that something very different was up and not to expect Ascension as usual (and worried players would be angry that it wasn't). The coders were also very conscientious when setting up the Ghani twist, and don't get me started on how much work went into making sure Pandaemonium and the Orrery were ready for release! (The quests there really neat, lore wise, and REALLY hard, but the rewards are pretty amazing as well.)
Anyway, I apologize to any who felt the event was unfair. Again, I think valid points were raised but even so, I feel it would be impractical to try and relitigate the event itself. In the end, I think the Sealbearers were on relatively equal footing to start. I also note that it was VERY close up to the halfway point and it seemed to me that it was anyone's game.
Thanks to everyone who participated and I hope you enjoyed the event, at least somewhat (it sounds like most did). Also, let us know if you prefer this format (or a variation on it) over the usual Ascension Event you've come to expect.
I would much prefer the variants of Beauty and Final, at the very least. I was so shocked, and it definitely made me feel if I'd been a Sealbearer I could have stood a shot, which is a feeling I very much liked.
Unfortunately, x axis is not time but rather the number of times I checked the event score, since my log didn't capture my custom prompt with time stamps.
Side note: anyone know how to either capture time stamps or custom prompt with the logging function in mudlet (i.e. the box in the corner)?
Thanks Estarra. I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting relitigating the result, but it is reassuring to know you are taking in the feedback of those of us who had less fun than we hoped.
I prefer the old style of Ascension. I prefer the group to matter more than the individual, so it is a group decision and group success when it happens.
If you do decide to do alternative Ascensions, I would suggest continuing to refine it based on how you want people to feel coming out of it. For example, with a more literal and material representation of Kethuru in Ghani, I actually expected Ascension to require MORE cooperation - even across alliances - than normal. I don't know, say that x Seal Bearers (or x% of present seal bearers) must willingly give their seal all to a single person in order to finish it. If they can't decide or agree, start destroying areas. Something like that. Make Ascension actually about stopping Kethuru and take a fractured population and unite them behind a single purpose, somehow. I don't know. I had hopes when there was a more specific and definable enemy that we might find a way to make the event more about what it should actually be about, rather than a cover story for the inevitable Ascension of one person winning an arbitrary contest. But that would probably have made people upset too, so what do I know?
Comments
We also discussed the possibility of the event being done without GMCP, and I'm glad that the Divine aren't as wicked as we thought they might be.
Using a basic game command that is taught to newbies isn't some great hidden secret that lacked documentation, it's entirely easy to assume that if you thought of it, someone else has too (though as we've now learned that's a flawed assumption)
At what point were they expected to assume it was a bug, over having a better strategy than other teams (and not to overlook other mechanical advantages due to skillsets) Yes now with the power of hindsight we can say "ok that was the deciding factor" but during the event?
You're saying that players should surrender their strategy to everyone else if they build up a lead, why? It's a contest with a prize at the end, this isn't the school sports day where there are no winners and everyone gets a participation trophy.
They used a command to do exactly what it said on the tin, if it was doing something it normally shouldn't (example if it instantly teleported you there for no balance) then sure that's an obvious bug.
Ultimately anyone could have found it, although knowing some people in Glomdoring and their well documented history of trying everything, usually until it breaks, it's not surprising that they thought of it first.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
You might have, my mapper was like "you're on your own, have fun". I will never ignore @Kalaneya's theories again.
I will humbly allow the admin to ascend me to compensate for the group that does not like that Veyils ascended.
I am willing to sacrifice myself for the greater good on this. True Saint, I know.
Moi said:
To be clear, I don't believe it was possible to generate a client-side map function. I took a 10-minute break from walking aimlessly to try everything I could to get the Mudlet mapper to work. I even created new profiles to download a fresh map and went through the mapper wiki. And I had already tried using PATH FIND and came to the (intended!) conclusion that we were not supposed to have access to IG mapping functions. I was convinced that Gloms had found a way to client-side map the area, only to learn about the PATH SHORTEST issue later.
But when you examine the backlash from Chaos and Final, to me this emphasizes why that decision is wrong. "Bugs" or oversights affected the outcomes, and the players are left to call for some re-do or to cry foul or to criticize why this was allowed to happen. In a game as complex as Lusternia, we collectively - Admin and players - must accept the reality that bugs will occur. Despite this, we still can mitigate 1) the risk of those bugs/imbalances being present and 2) the impact of those bugs.
To the point of bug detection/imbalances: if players were given forewarning and the opportunity to consider the implications of the new mechanics, then those players would have had a basis to express concerns, seek clarifications, and to plan for or test the limits of those configurations - all before being thrust into a high pressure, high stakes competition. As the most real example: if I was informed that the environment was going to be a maze, I probably would have gone into a maze area and tested the heck out of what that could entail, or I could have sought clarification if we would have the ability to use pathing. And yes, I'm sure (or sure hope) that Admin test simulations of these events were done beforehand, but not factoring in player numbers and ingenuity into the equation makes that a very limited and insufficient test environment. I won't even get into the balance concerns of the various skills/artifacts within that unannounced competitive environment (e.g., stealth bypassing rubble, or having to buy arti goggles mid-event to detect the NPC flying), since that could be a whole thread in and of itself.
To the point of the bug impact: if the developers double down on the gamble that your event is going to run "good enough" without user feedback or representative pilot runs, then you should be prepared to monitor and hot fix issues as they arise. This is where I find the most heartache from Final Ascension, in that the obvious disparity was not seemingly detected or investigated. I realize that some Admin attention was given to fixing lag issues and operating Ghani, but I expect culpability in monitoring fair competition during the event above everything else. And moreover, even if the issue was fixed mid-event, I have serious doubts that there would have been an attempt to facilitate fair resolution to the actual scoring, as was arguably evidenced in the Chaos event and in prior years' events.
To summarize my point regarding the changes: your intent to surprise the players has been dwarfed by the realized potential to upset them, in that they had no conduit for feedback over the fairness (or enjoyment) of the competition, and factors beyond their control highly influenced the outcome of the events, without apparent resolution.
When you try something new, there is always opportunity for unexpected flaws and interactions. I fully acknowledge and appreciate this; the fear of failure should never inhibit our drive for innovation. And I agree with a lot of what Ciaran said, in that the intention of these changes was good and it's refreshing for the game. But at the same time, I feel we are incumbent to maintain responsibility to do the best we can, yet still accept culpability for our potential flaws - by design (the frustrating mechanics, and the bug) and by execution (no player input, and then not monitoring/fixing it). I think players are frustrated with the lack of transparency, the perceived failure of intervention/resolution, and the lack of apology/lessons learned thereafter. Maybe you can still offer some concessions to the latter, or give us some insight to rectify the bad feelings. Far, far worse than losing is feeling cheated.
Fair point. I suppose Yarith and Taevyn do constitute a very vocal minority, especially when they haven't been around much all year. I just don't think highly of them for accusing certain admin of bias, and talking about trying to get this year's winner shrubbed "for obvious bug abuse". Maybe I need thicker skin. As for concessions, I'm not sure exactly what you expect. An apology? A "shit happens and we're sorry."? A do-over?
So here you go. I'm sorry, Kelly. I'm sorry that you, and Saoirse, and Taevyn, and Ciaran, and Shamarah, and a handful of others came back for nothing. I'm sorry that you didn't win. I'm sorry that the massive area designed by our hard working admin was a little buggy, and it made you waste your time. I'm sorry that it wasn't tested beforehand to make sure it was fair to everyone who can't adapt to changes. I'm sorry that the tactics you used last time you graced us with your presence didn't work this time around. I'm sorry that the admin tried to make Ascension "Not boring" and switched it up on you. I'm sorry that our admin are human and can't always predict how players can break things or find bugs.
We'll see you next year. Cheers!
The biggest thing I found was that some rooms seem constant, but some rooms change their names (the main one I noticed it on had two different names it toggled between, but it is possible there are more options). The roomnum from ROOMNUM was always the same, so I could use that to make sure I was in the right place, just can't rely on room name.
See, personally, I'm not above admitting when I make mistakes, despite my fair intention in trying to come to a mutual understanding.
10/10 Shamarah reference, though.
Maybe if you quit thinking that all there is to Lusternia is showing up for a few weeks each year to win the big trophy, then you wouldn't feel so bad when you don't win it.
I guess I am learning atcp today, thanks for the info
Maybe this is another one of those bugs which is impossible to tell is a bug because it is the only command I use. Does GMCP really not work there?
Additionally, can we please keep this discussion civil and not resort to personal resentments? This day's been horrible enough.
I won't speak for anyone else. There have been times when I have seen people post on forums who I agreed with and who I didn't speak out in support of because I wasn't interested in being bombarded with how-dare-yous. Other times I did post, and quickly regretted it. I don't care who won Ascension this year and I'm not personally invested, but the inability to speak frankly is, honestly, exhausting. I enjoy the rich lore, the RP, and combat of this game, but the meta-conflict is just too stressful. I know that I am not the only one who feels this way. Ultimately, I'm only comfortable saying this because I don't foresee myself logging in as much in the future, and probably won't see many of the replies here.
{
WrongDir = "s",
Info = {
map = "www.lusternia.com/irex/maps/clientmap.php?map=142&building=0&level=2 4 2",
num = 11380,
details = {
"the Prime Material Plane",
"indoors"
},
coords = "142,-8,24,2",
desc = "The steady stairway flattens out as it leads to this small circular chamber, roughly
six feet in diameter. A thin channel circles the room, brimming with liquid fire that combusts
steadily, releasing a flickering light and sweltry heat. The air glows a subtle orange, staining
the surroundings similarly and oppressing many colours into shades of amber. A wide archway to the
east opens to a balcony, granting the room a glimpse of spectacular view of the city.",
name = "Before the Bridge of Kahzadi",
environment = "urban",
exits = {
sw = 11379,
w = 11375,
nw = 11382
},
area = "the City of Gaudiguch"
},
This is what I get in the new area
{
WrongDir = "se",
Info = {
map = "www.lusternia.com/irex/maps/images/lost.png 2 2",
num = 47292,
details = {
"the Plane of Creation",
"outdoors"
},
coords = "",
desc = "You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.",
name = "In a maze",
environment = "nothing",
exits = {
},
area = "the Divine Havens"
},
At first look it is an intentional thing they did for a maze, HOWEVER I do not get that when the game map does show the room properly. I think the maze flag is an issue here that either does not do what is intended, or just annoys people that rely on gmcp instead of old fashion triggering (which one has to wonder why do it, only people using mudlet in gmcp will get affected because good old triggering can read the vnums in the map window)
ps. I am not accusing anyone of anything, I am just trying to solve an issue with my mapper, I love you all (as opposed to my character that hates all of you)
Look. Anyone who actually pays attention to me knows that I'll be the first to congratulate the admin for a job well done, and the first to complain when they make a mistake. I've had to be humble and email apologies to admin before because I went off on a tangent and wrote several paragraphs worth of "omg you suck how could you not notice this" where they could see it. We're all human.
But it's the height of hubris to imply that the admin owe you apologies, or concessions, or whatever word you wish to use, just because something didn't work out right. Unless you have some sort of proof that an admin cheated, don't make that sort of accusation. Unless you have some sort of proof that someone is intentionally and willfully abusing something they know is a bug, don't make that accusation. If something doesn't go your way, quit making excuses as to why it was anyone else's fault but yours.
I know when you use it now in Pandaemonium, if you have a room num, try PATH TRACK/FIND it gives you the hint about path shortest, obviously doesn't work now though since the changelog. I'm just curious to know if there was a hint during the event, and if not, we definitely wouldn't have known - who uses just 'path' to see the syntaxes when they know path track works everywhere else?? Not to mention a lot of people's mappers didn't even work when walking around trying to map -mine included, and I wouldn't even know where to start with what some people did to make it work or at least try.
---
I personally found it confusing and disorientating during Ascension, but I am a sucker for new areas, new beasties and possible lore behind it ,so I'm excited to explore and quest there. (Massive raves for this)
It wasn't just 'new people' that found themselves going 'wtf is going on' - it was literally everyone on both sides. No one knew what was happening or where to go, or how to find their group again. I ended up sitting still and empressing people when they called for it, because I felt that the only thing I was useful for as I could never find/get back to group. If I was in the meld, I could hardly move and called for empress myself just to get out to make some sense of what was going on.
I was unsure about posting, to be honest, from seeing the reactions of both 'sides' when legit feedback is given - which, by the way, was ASKED for BY the admin.
Anyway, I apologize to any who felt the event was unfair. Again, I think valid points were raised but even so, I feel it would be impractical to try and relitigate the event itself. In the end, I think the Sealbearers were on relatively equal footing to start. I also note that it was VERY close up to the halfway point and it seemed to me that it was anyone's game.
Thanks to everyone who participated and I hope you enjoyed the event, at least somewhat (it sounds like most did). Also, let us know if you prefer this format (or a variation on it) over the usual Ascension Event you've come to expect.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
Unfortunately, x axis is not time but rather the number of times I checked the event score, since my log didn't capture my custom prompt with time stamps.
Side note: anyone know how to either capture time stamps or custom prompt with the logging function in mudlet (i.e. the box in the corner)?
I prefer the old style of Ascension. I prefer the group to matter more than the individual, so it is a group decision and group success when it happens.
If you do decide to do alternative Ascensions, I would suggest continuing to refine it based on how you want people to feel coming out of it. For example, with a more literal and material representation of Kethuru in Ghani, I actually expected Ascension to require MORE cooperation - even across alliances - than normal. I don't know, say that x Seal Bearers (or x% of present seal bearers) must willingly give their seal all to a single person in order to finish it. If they can't decide or agree, start destroying areas. Something like that. Make Ascension actually about stopping Kethuru and take a fractured population and unite them behind a single purpose, somehow. I don't know. I had hopes when there was a more specific and definable enemy that we might find a way to make the event more about what it should actually be about, rather than a cover story for the inevitable Ascension of one person winning an arbitrary contest. But that would probably have made people upset too, so what do I know?
I don't know where you've been, @Shaddus.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it