The more I chew on the idea in my head, the more I like it. Idea: Hemorrhaging counts towards instakill reqs, cap is 1250, extra hemorrhaging deals extra bleed/bruise, and burst does 2x bleed/bruise.
Even with 1250 hemo stuck on the target, it'll be difficult for the monk because they're racing the hemorrhage curing tick. If hemorrhage drops to 1150 they can't pull off the instakill with just one aff. This sort of tight window is where skillful players make their mark. It rewards people who can sqeeze every ounce out of their class. It also rewards players who are good at recognizing these high leverage moments and deflecting the attack.
Doubling the strength of burst also makes it tempting and potentially faster to burst -> instakill, if you're able to lock in the bleeding (which is prohibitively difficult).
One thing just that hasn't been mentioned is how hemo is going to interact with pulp and twist. If its common for a monk to be able to get a target to 1k uncureable bleed or 500 brusing then that'll let pureblades and bonecrushers pretty much near one shot these targets.
Is hemo suppose to be something that can be built up in groups or is it ment to be something thats only really going to happen in a long solo or very small group fight?
I'm of the opinion that 100 per aff was definitely too high, and can skew balance greatly particularly in groups. Thing with hemorrhaging is that it acts as growing and continuous vital pressure, so in my opinion it should be slow.
I came up with solution 1 in report 1664 that I think will address the issue we have with wanting to encourage the use of burst to achieve the instakill without making it just impossible to do as the current implementation and should also help with hemorrhaging entirely - it basically lowers the bar from 1500 to a smaller number if you can get the affs to stick.
The issue that I mostly invision with that is that if you can't stick haemophilia due to focus, you won't stick a slush or steam aff either. You'll possibly stick a dust aff since they'll have to focus off haemophilia, but not if they use powerfocus (which smart people will because it'll happen once every 5 minutes so is an acceptable useage of power to avoid a death). Ice is really the wildcard that might be doable for some specs, but only if they can double up on the same bodypart like with damagedskull+damagedthroat. Reallistically good curing should never reach a state when you can be instakilled, and once implemented there should be no margin for error. Perhaps I'm missing something though, very possible.
50 per aff was far too low. Now that it is 75, things might be a little better, and I think we still need to loosen the restrictions on how the bonus can trigger to something more than one specific affliction, since focus exists. Without doing so, you just need an alias that puts the four affs of each monk spec as focus priority when you're fighting any of them, and that bonus will never happen. An alternative (or in addition) could be to increase the passive, base rate of hemorrhaging from 30 to 40. This will allow a monk to keep some small progress even if slightly hindered, and will require more effort to intentionally interrupt a monk's offense instead of just having peripheral defenses or coincidental hinder completely negate the normal, non-bonus hemorrhaging buildup.
That said, at this point, we'll want more combat spars and logs before making further changes. Fixing Burst so the instakills can actually happen is important, though. Either Falaeron's or Ciaran's idea in 1664 will be needed first.
Moving forward, on other matters (assuming hemorrhaging speed is viable) I will probably consider Yarith's previous suggestion on re-calibrating Nekotai afflictions so all the affs on the same cure balances are on the same bodypart. That means I'll be considering swapping out some of our ice affs on Angkhai for one more steam and lucidity aff each, to meet that requirement. Feedback on what you guys think of this idea (and/or what affs you'd recommend) would be appreciated. @Tarken
50 per aff was far too low. Now that it is 75, things might be a little better, and I think we still need to loosen the restrictions on how the bonus can trigger to something more than one specific affliction, since focus exists. Without doing so, you just need an alias that puts the four affs of each monk spec as focus priority when you're fighting any of them, and that bonus will never happen. An alternative (or in addition) could be to increase the passive, base rate of hemorrhaging from 30 to 40. This will allow a monk to keep some small progress even if slightly hindered, and will require more effort to intentionally interrupt a monk's offense instead of just having peripheral defenses or coincidental hinder completely negate the normal, non-bonus hemorrhaging buildup.
That said, at this point, we'll want more combat spars and logs before making further changes. Fixing Burst so the instakills can actually happen is important, though. Either Falaeron's or Ciaran's idea in 1664 will be needed first.
Moving forward, on other matters (assuming hemorrhaging speed is viable) I will probably consider Yarith's previous suggestion on re-calibrating Nekotai afflictions so all the affs on the same cure balances are on the same bodypart. That means I'll be considering swapping out some of our ice affs on Angkhai for one more steam and lucidity aff each, to meet that requirement. Feedback on what you guys think of this idea (and/or what affs you'd recommend) would be appreciated. @Tarken
It is probably worth noting that we're probably not going to get a great idea of how the hemorrhaging changes pan out until the instakills get looked at, since to be optimal currently the monk should avoid hemorrhaging as much as possible.
Assuming report 1652 goes in, could move angkai legs (currently disloyalty) to chest and change the angkhai chest aaffliction. Only real options are healthleech, luminosity, or pacifism. Pacifism is obviously the strongest of those but may be too strong if relapsing also gets moved to a steam cure (that might be offset by it being surge gated though). Might be better to just make angknek chest healthleech or luminosity and move the proposed slickness affliction from report 1652 to angkhai chest instead. I don't see it being particularly impactful as there's not really an end goal for a steam stack currently, but that feels like the most reasonable approach to me. No idea what you'd put on angkai legs in that case though (though given its currently disloyalty, the thematic element probably isn't hugely important in that respect).
Of course, doing this significantly weakens the nekotai's already weak ice stack, but much like steam that doesn't really go anywhere at the moment anyway (damaged organs might change that). I would personally rather see damaged arms/legs go as these offer very little room for expansion, but they're also the least beneficial to target with a change like this since it still keeps parry as a 50/50 gamble, unless you tied affs to a specific side, which just feels like unnecessary complication. That said, due to the inability to focus ice as it stands, ice stacks are the most reliable when it comes to sticking afflictions for monk instakills/hemorrhaging bonuses, so that may be worth consideration.
It is probably worth noting that we're probably not going to get a great idea of how the hemorrhaging changes pan out until the instakills get looked at, since to be optimal currently the monk should avoid hemorrhaging as much as possible.
I agree that the instakills need to be looked at but I would also say that if you're currently able to avoid hemorrhaging and still able to build bleeding that whatever skills you are using to achieve that also need to be looked at. (My guess is sprongma.)
I have a lot of thoughts on the instakills. But basically,
the way I see it we have a couple of direct paths forward from here:
We grant either a total window of opportunity at a
certain level of hemorrhaging or we offer a large discount based on the
amount of hemorrhaging that's been bursted (both @Ciaran and @Falaeron
have ideas like this represented in Lerad's special report).
We make burst do something really strong to make it
feasible to stick bleeding like a large mana drain or a dust balance
throw.
The advantage of #1 is it's fairly easy to get all of the
guilds in line with that goal. The major criticism I've heard of that idea is
that hemorrhaging can be hard to prevent building so making the insta
straightforward in that way puts us into the camp of healers with aurawarp and
warriors with wounds, which is they will eventually build on you unless your
hinder is extreme. I like Fal's variant because it's really clean and simple and
I like Ciaran's variant because it keeps some aff focus in there (which means
that there's a reason to not build your form entirely around hindering).
The pro of #2 is that it could keep a larger element of strategy in there, or I
should say throwing the cure balance could, the mana drain isn't very
strategic.
The idea that's been rolling around in my brain for this
variant is something like this (this is still very spitbally):
Burst is a separate
action rather than being a modifier on a form. Meaning you can't combine the
bleeding with other hindering/cure hindering afflictions. Costs 3p, is
treated like it's boosted so 2.6s bal regardless of balance bonus.
Burst now has
different effects depending on the afflictions of the target:
If the target has at least one
steam or lucidity affliction the target is afflicted with haemophilia and
loses dust balance for 1.5s. If that steam or lucidity affliction is in
the monk’s hemorrhaging pool they lose twice the balance.
If the target has at least one
ice or dust affliction the target is afflicted with double sensitivity
(goes through truedeaf) and loses lucidity balance for 1.5s, if the ice
or dust affliction is in the monk’s hemorrhaging pool then the balance
loss is doubled. The target should also take some portion of hemorrhaging
as direct health damage.
This intentionally
does work with beast spit so that any monk can “force” the double loss of
balance even if a target is focusing properly. However note that burst can no
longer hinder the target so even when haemophilia is “locked in” for 3s they
are able to hinder/run/shield for that window. A monk could spit mantakaya on the dust throw version but only if the target did not focus off the hemorrhaging afflictions from the form before (and it would still be subject to poison shrug). That may be too much pressure to constantly focus the monk hemorrhaging pool.
I’m not necessarily advocating for this newer idea over the ones
that we’ve been currently mulling over but there are some things that I like
about it. It still is a window of opportunity, it’s a bit more flexible, I
believe all the guilds could currently work with this without retooling
significantly, and perhaps most importantly it places an emphasis not just on
what you do while you're bursting, but what you do in the form before it.
I can't speak to all of the implications, but at 2.6s balance speed there's not really any balance requiring counter play for most classes if they get bursted after using an attack.
If I sling some runes at you and then you burst me, you'll get balance back before I can literally do anything about the fact that I'm about to die.
Whether or not that's fair is another question, but I just mean to point out that the way I'm reading your proposal @Wobou once you get high hemorrhaging you're dead meat unless all you do is constantly shield/hold balance. As proposed there will be little curing-based counterplay. You'll just beast spit me with a dust aff and lock haemo -> insta. [Deathproph irony noted]
I can't speak to all of the implications, but at 2.6s balance speed there's not really any balance requiring counter play for most classes if they get bursted after using an attack.
If I sling some runes at you and then you burst me, you'll get balance back before I can literally do anything about the fact that I'm about to die.
Whether or not that's fair is another question, but I just mean to point out that the way I'm reading your proposal @Wobou once you get high hemorrhaging you're dead meat unless all you do is constantly shield/hold balance. As proposed there will be little curing-based counterplay. You'll just beast spit me with a dust aff and lock haemo -> insta. [Deathproph irony noted]
That's true but I actually think that critique also holds true for a 1v1 with any of the "window of opportunity" style ideas. As long as you can boost that form then it's a 2.6s balance that you could time with your victims attack. Even if we made it so you couldn't boost these forms if you timed it closely with your enemy's attack it probably still wouldn't be counterable in a 1v1 (which is what many guardians do for things like meteor).
Sorry if I butt in, but I have a monk question so I figured I might as well ask here.
How
do I know if my target meets the crunch condition? I haven't found it,
but is there a way to know current bleed/hemoharrging? How do I know if
they have any of the three affs? Just trying crunch and see if it works, doesn't work either, cause it always triggers + costs 5p. Maybe I'm missing something obvious here. -.-
PS: Hemo is 30 per form now? That's what I seem to be doing but the changelog says differently. I'm confused sorry.
Sorry if I butt in, but I have a monk question so I figured I might as well ask here.
How
do I know if my target meets the crunch condition? I haven't found it,
but is there a way to know current bleed/hemoharrging? How do I know if
they have any of the three affs? Just trying crunch and see if it works, doesn't work either, cause it always triggers + costs 5p. Maybe I'm missing something obvious here. -.-
PS: Hemo is 30 per form now? That's what I seem to be doing but the changelog says differently. I'm confused sorry.
Bleeding, bruising, and hemmoraging show up on ASSESS if you have the skill (right before pipelist in discernment).
I'll ask after the Hemo amount or look it up shortly. Just sat down, so a bit winded still.
Sorry if I butt in, but I have a monk question so I figured I might as well ask here.
How
do I know if my target meets the crunch condition? I haven't found it,
but is there a way to know current bleed/hemoharrging? How do I know if
they have any of the three affs? Just trying crunch and see if it works, doesn't work either, cause it always triggers + costs 5p. Maybe I'm missing something obvious here. -.-
PS: Hemo is 30 per form now? That's what I seem to be doing but the changelog says differently. I'm confused sorry.
Afflictions have always been a guessing game for non-Healers. A lot of it just comes to how well you perceive to have afflicted them, and going from there. I'd say that's part of why there's a flat bleed amount you can insta at, so people who aren't amazing at tracking can still pull it off. And the ones who perfect their class can do it easier with practice.
I have my curing such that I won't clot if it'll take me below half mana, for obvious reasons.
EDIT: Frankly, I thought haemophilia would just stop you from clotting (like deny the attempt and not suck your mana away) if it was stuck on you. Why did this change? EDIT 2: Maybe my memory is just terrible.
@Ianir Thank you! (And I swear I tried assess, but it's quite possible that in my tired stupor I actually forgot to hit Sarra before assessing her <.< I'll try again tonight!) And the (real, supposed-to-be) hemo values would be great!
@Reylari Thank you, I was afraid of that. Though looking at the affs again, I think it's doable. I just have to pay attention to where they apply ice to.
For Hemorrhaging values - each stance will give 30 hemorrhaging. If you boost, that is doubled to 60. If you start a stance and your target has one of the 4 afflictions required, you'll do an additional 75 hemorrhaging.
Hemorrhaging cures itself at a rate of 100hem/10s. This doubles if no new hemorrhaging is applied between ticks.
Sorry if I butt in, but I have a monk question so I figured I might as well ask here.
How
do I know if my target meets the crunch condition? I haven't found it,
but is there a way to know current bleed/hemoharrging? How do I know if
they have any of the three affs? Just trying crunch and see if it works, doesn't work either, cause it always triggers + costs 5p. Maybe I'm missing something obvious here. -.-
PS: Hemo is 30 per form now? That's what I seem to be doing but the changelog says differently. I'm confused sorry.
In practical terms the best thing for you to do is do an ice stack for the form that takes you into killer stance. Shofangi can do all three of our insta affs in one form, barring healing trickery you can essentially guarantee that they'll have at least one of those affs on them for the insta (two if you time it with your target applying ice from a previous form) so without doing anything fancy you can save at least 250 off the bleeding requirement. If you want to get really fancy you can capture the lines of you dealing certain ice afflictions and the lines for when your target applies, but honestly it doesn't matter which affs they have as long as you are crunching at the right threshold. The harder part is sticking any bleeding on them at all that isn't guarded by hemorrhaging. I have a method for crossing that bridge from the burst form to the insta form but it's not reliable.
The other thing you could try is to headbutt on the ice form that I mention above, if people don't assume our ice affs on shofangi headbutt and don't diagnose until the blackout is over then you could potentially stick all 3 ice affs for the insta form. Bleeding will still be a problem though because GMCP bleed values show up under blackout.
@Kalikai Thank you! I just reviewed the changelog (721) again and realized it's all in there. Sorry -.-
@Wobou I really need to catch you around sometimes. That would make it easier.
I have two questions left though: 1) What are the 4 affs? I'm guessing 3 are the crunch-condition affs, but what's the 4th? I've tried finding info about it in the abs (or changelogs) but no luck. Might be I'm blind again though. 2) Also.. shouldn't there be a skill entry for burst with the syntax and some such? I can't find that either. Or a reference to hemoharrging in the abs.
@Kalikai Thank you! I just reviewed the changelog (721) again and realized it's all in there. Sorry -.-
@Wobou I really need to catch you around sometimes. That would make it easier.
I have two questions left though: 1) What are the 4 affs? I'm guessing 3 are the crunch-condition affs, but what's the 4th? I've tried finding info about it in the abs (or changelogs) but no luck. Might be I'm blind again though. 2) Also.. shouldn't there be a skill entry for burst with the syntax and some such? I can't find that either. Or a reference to hemoharrging in the abs.
It should be in the AB's - maybe check the AB for the Shofangi base stance (I want to say it's Rake?)
One of my guildmembers asked me to check about a question, and just so I don't forget, I'm putting it here:
Could I check how is the diminishing returns on hemorrhaging calculated? As in, which monk is the "first" monk, and which is the "second", etc?
If it is on order of initial application of hemorrhaging (so the first monk to apply hemorrhaging on a target is the "first" monk, and subsequently the second guy is a "second" monk - and they're locked into this position) then how long does this order stay locked in?
For example, say, the "first" monk becomes webbed or doesn't attack for some reason, or moves away, or even dies, while the second monk keeps hitting. At what point does the second monk become the "first" monk for hemorrhaging calculation?
Ah, so there's no "lock" in - it's just a case of the next hemorrhaging application within 2 secs get reduced, then? Well, that's probably a simplification of the code, but generally speaking, we won't see a case where someone's hemorrhaging is constantly locked into "second" place if the first monk isn't attacking.
Here's yet another insta idea for those interested. It's essentially a mix of solution 1 and 3 on report 1664 so I believe it's a mix of Lerad's, Ciaran's, and Falaeron's ideas for how instas will operate.
Hemorrhaging is capped at 1250 (like Ciaran's idea). This means you either need to be able to time the healing tick and stick one of your affs or able to stick two of your insta affs on the target.
Hemorrhaging is still subtracted for insta calculations (in other words burst is required as it is now).
Burst costs 3p, insta costs 3p (alternatively could make instas still 5p and allow burst to "discount" the next instakill attempt by 2p)
Burst reduces the bleed requirement by 100% of the hemorrhaging consumed for the next 3.5s
I think keeping burst as a required mechanic is important for differentiating monks from being "better" warriors but I also think that granting a window is cleaner than giving monks the tools to reliably hold someone's bleeding up for 2.6s, because unless it's tied to burst (like my spitball idea above) then it's going to be used in regular offense as well. For example if I have the ability to regularly stop you from eating dust for 2.6s to protect haemotox then I can do the same for manatakaya. Which leads me to my next concern.
Niricol + Mantakaya is OP
It's annoying when warriors do it but against any monk with a dust arm action from base/twist (which I believe is every monk except ninjakari) it becomes essentially required to powerfocus paralysis, and even with powerfocusing paralysis and eating faeleaf before other actions you're still hindered from attacking for 1.5s-3s depending on your dust balance before the form hit. My understanding of the paralysis report is that the solution chosen is not going to significantly impact this issue so we need some sort of bandaid for monks.
Here are some possible ways we could address this:
Disallow monks from envenoming mantakaya (or niricol) [This feels the most bandaidy but would probably be best at addressing the immediate issue]
We could globally increase the shrug rate when mantakaya is applied on a target that's already blind or vice versa (this impacts warriors and I also have no idea if it's viable in the code).
Disallow everyone from being able to envenom mantakaya (or niricol). This obviously impacts warriors as well.
Move blindness to steam, this may have a side effect for bards that I'm not properly evaluating, also impacts warriors. Should not be done if pacifism ends up being made into a poison (report 1655), otherwise we will have moved the problem from dust to steam.
We could reduce the poison transfer rate for monks (which is 50% at base) on afflicting arm attacks, with perhaps some surge gated armed attacks being the exception.
Or we could reduce base poison transfer rate and restore it based on hemorrhaging (like wounds)
Or we could reduce the poison transfer rate and restore it (or even boost it) during surge and killer stance.
If we end up going with something that essentially nerfs monk aff rate (like the last 3 of those ideas) then I think monks should be given more choices pre-surge to compensate for that. For example I don't think any monk can do a steam stack at early stances right now, that should be opened up to them if poisons become less reliable for monks.
Regarding hemorrhaging, I'm hesitant to make it a burst mechanic that completely resets offense on failure. I agree with the concept of a window to execute it, but note that both the building and the execution are aff reliant, and if it completely resets offense on top of that, then it's hardly a mechanic that makes sense with its design. If there's some way to retain some of the progress after the window passes (instead of a full reset) I think that might be a better idea.
If burst must be a full reset, then my suggestion is this: halve, or even third the insta requirements as well as the hemorrhaging caps.
So, instead of 1500 to kill, monks will need only 750 to kill. Hemorrhaging is now capped at 500 instead of 1250, and everything else works as described in Wobou's post above.
This shortens (more than halves) the time needed to build to instakill levels, so a full reset becomes more palatable, because it's not a case of needing to spend full minutes to hit insta level, invest power to have a tiny and easily hindered window, and then, when it fails, have to spend the entire however many minutes all over again. The time taken to hit that level of hemorrhaging is much shorter, and it also limits how much bleeding is "incurable" - this disincentivizes people from just keeping their target at max hemorrhaging and getting a big health pressure on it - at 500, it's not dangerous enough to be worth the effort to continue to maintain it against the 10s cure timer - a monk is incentivized to burst asap and go for the kill.
Regarding paralysis + blindness, can we have blindness cured by dust instead of faeleaf? That, combined with #1603 will solve the problem. I can't remember why it was kept in faeleaf in the first place - was it to ensure that people can choose to cure blindness via faeleaf instead of having to rely on rng cures? If so, with focus and the concurrent paralysis curing report, it'll put things back into where they are supposed to be: two different hinder affs, but which effectively don't stack.
Para + blindness combined is very frustrating. It's the not being able to attack due to it that is awful, though. What's the rationale for that? That's not its function in other IRE games, where paralysis is king.
Blindness being on faeleaf is helpful in curing it because it means you don't need to constantly use *focus to cure it. If it was moved to dust, then dust stacks would become even worse. In order to cure paralysis AND blindness when you have any other dust affs (in order to be able to attack), you'd have to focus twice to ensure you're not stuck waiting an extra 1.5s. For every extra dust aff you greatly increase your chances of waiting 1.5s+ to be able to attack again.
If paralysis AND blind were moved to faeleaf, it'd actually make the situation a lot more mangeable. Faeleaf eating to remove the disables without having to constantly use focus.
Also, report 1603 didn't move paralysis to concurrent, it means paralysis will no longer be a delayed cure. (I.E. - having only having a minor impact on monks who can stack up dust, but a large impact on warriors)
P.S. I support Wabbu's framework. There will probably need to be further tweaking done, but I think it's an ok place to work from. Monks as they are right now are still out of whack.
Comments
It seems they want to push the burst idea, but I don't see how that can work well.
Idea: Hemorrhaging counts towards instakill reqs, cap is 1250, extra hemorrhaging deals extra bleed/bruise, and burst does 2x bleed/bruise.
Even with 1250 hemo stuck on the target, it'll be difficult for the monk because they're racing the hemorrhage curing tick. If hemorrhage drops to 1150 they can't pull off the instakill with just one aff. This sort of tight window is where skillful players make their mark. It rewards people who can sqeeze every ounce out of their class. It also rewards players who are good at recognizing these high leverage moments and deflecting the attack.
Doubling the strength of burst also makes it tempting and potentially faster to burst -> instakill, if you're able to lock in the bleeding (which is prohibitively difficult).
Please consider!
Is hemo suppose to be something that can be built up in groups or is it ment to be something thats only really going to happen in a long solo or very small group fight?
I came up with solution 1 in report 1664 that I think will address the issue we have with wanting to encourage the use of burst to achieve the instakill without making it just impossible to do as the current implementation and should also help with hemorrhaging entirely - it basically lowers the bar from 1500 to a smaller number if you can get the affs to stick.
That said, at this point, we'll want more combat spars and logs before making further changes. Fixing Burst so the instakills can actually happen is important, though. Either Falaeron's or Ciaran's idea in 1664 will be needed first.
Moving forward, on other matters (assuming hemorrhaging speed is viable) I will probably consider Yarith's previous suggestion on re-calibrating Nekotai afflictions so all the affs on the same cure balances are on the same bodypart. That means I'll be considering swapping out some of our ice affs on Angkhai for one more steam and lucidity aff each, to meet that requirement. Feedback on what you guys think of this idea (and/or what affs you'd recommend) would be appreciated. @Tarken
It is probably worth noting that we're probably not going to get a great idea of how the hemorrhaging changes pan out until the instakills get looked at, since to be optimal currently the monk should avoid hemorrhaging as much as possible.
Assuming report 1652 goes in, could move angkai legs (currently disloyalty) to chest and change the angkhai chest aaffliction. Only real options are healthleech, luminosity, or pacifism. Pacifism is obviously the strongest of those but may be too strong if relapsing also gets moved to a steam cure (that might be offset by it being surge gated though). Might be better to just make angknek chest healthleech or luminosity and move the proposed slickness affliction from report 1652 to angkhai chest instead. I don't see it being particularly impactful as there's not really an end goal for a steam stack currently, but that feels like the most reasonable approach to me. No idea what you'd put on angkai legs in that case though (though given its currently disloyalty, the thematic element probably isn't hugely important in that respect).
Of course, doing this significantly weakens the nekotai's already weak ice stack, but much like steam that doesn't really go anywhere at the moment anyway (damaged organs might change that). I would personally rather see damaged arms/legs go as these offer very little room for expansion, but they're also the least beneficial to target with a change like this since it still keeps parry as a 50/50 gamble, unless you tied affs to a specific side, which just feels like unnecessary complication. That said, due to the inability to focus ice as it stands, ice stacks are the most reliable when it comes to sticking afflictions for monk instakills/hemorrhaging bonuses, so that may be worth consideration.
I have a lot of thoughts on the instakills. But basically, the way I see it we have a couple of direct paths forward from here:
The advantage of #1 is it's fairly easy to get all of the guilds in line with that goal. The major criticism I've heard of that idea is that hemorrhaging can be hard to prevent building so making the insta straightforward in that way puts us into the camp of healers with aurawarp and warriors with wounds, which is they will eventually build on you unless your hinder is extreme. I like Fal's variant because it's really clean and simple and I like Ciaran's variant because it keeps some aff focus in there (which means that there's a reason to not build your form entirely around hindering).
The pro of #2 is that it could keep a larger element of strategy in there, or I should say throwing the cure balance could, the mana drain isn't very strategic.
The idea that's been rolling around in my brain for this variant is something like this (this is still very spitbally):
I’m not necessarily advocating for this newer idea over the ones that we’ve been currently mulling over but there are some things that I like about it. It still is a window of opportunity, it’s a bit more flexible, I believe all the guilds could currently work with this without retooling significantly, and perhaps most importantly it places an emphasis not just on what you do while you're bursting, but what you do in the form before it.
If I sling some runes at you and then you burst me, you'll get balance back before I can literally do anything about the fact that I'm about to die.
Whether or not that's fair is another question, but I just mean to point out that the way I'm reading your proposal @Wobou once you get high hemorrhaging you're dead meat unless all you do is constantly shield/hold balance. As proposed there will be little curing-based counterplay. You'll just beast spit me with a dust aff and lock haemo -> insta. [Deathproph irony noted]
Sorry if I butt in, but I have a monk question so I figured I might as well ask here.
How do I know if my target meets the crunch condition? I haven't found it, but is there a way to know current bleed/hemoharrging? How do I know if they have any of the three affs? Just trying crunch and see if it works, doesn't work either, cause it always triggers + costs 5p. Maybe I'm missing something obvious here. -.-
PS: Hemo is 30 per form now? That's what I seem to be doing but the changelog says differently. I'm confused sorry.
I'll ask after the Hemo amount or look it up shortly. Just sat down, so a bit winded still.
Discord: Rey#1460
>---------------------------[ Changelog Entry #732 ]--------------------------<
Entered by: Ianir the Anomaly Date: 2017-04-06 04:05:41
o Clotting with haemophilia should no longer consume mana.
raggghhh I KNEW IT ALL ALONG
And the (real, supposed-to-be) hemo values would be great!
@Reylari Thank you, I was afraid of that.
Hemorrhaging cures itself at a rate of 100hem/10s. This doubles if no new hemorrhaging is applied between ticks.
The other thing you could try is to headbutt on the ice form that I mention above, if people don't assume our ice affs on shofangi headbutt and don't diagnose until the blackout is over then you could potentially stick all 3 ice affs for the insta form. Bleeding will still be a problem though because GMCP bleed values show up under blackout.
@Wobou I really need to catch you around sometimes.
I have two questions left though:
1) What are the 4 affs? I'm guessing 3 are the crunch-condition affs, but what's the 4th? I've tried finding info about it in the abs (or changelogs) but no luck. Might be I'm blind again though.
2) Also.. shouldn't there be a skill entry for burst with the syntax and some such? I can't find that either. Or a reference to hemoharrging in the abs.
It should be in the AB's - maybe check the AB for the Shofangi base stance (I want to say it's Rake?)
If it is on order of initial application of hemorrhaging (so the first monk to apply hemorrhaging on a target is the "first" monk, and subsequently the second guy is a "second" monk - and they're locked into this position) then how long does this order stay locked in?
For example, say, the "first" monk becomes webbed or doesn't attack for some reason, or moves away, or even dies, while the second monk keeps hitting. At what point does the second monk become the "first" monk for hemorrhaging calculation?
Thanks for the clarification.
- Hemorrhaging is capped at 1250 (like Ciaran's idea). This means you either need to be able to time the healing tick and stick one of your affs or able to stick two of your insta affs on the target.
- Hemorrhaging is still subtracted for insta calculations (in other words burst is required as it is now).
- Burst costs 3p, insta costs 3p (alternatively could make instas still 5p and allow burst to "discount" the next instakill attempt by 2p)
- Burst reduces the bleed requirement by 100% of the hemorrhaging consumed for the next 3.5s
I think keeping burst as a required mechanic is important for differentiating monks from being "better" warriors but I also think that granting a window is cleaner than giving monks the tools to reliably hold someone's bleeding up for 2.6s, because unless it's tied to burst (like my spitball idea above) then it's going to be used in regular offense as well. For example if I have the ability to regularly stop you from eating dust for 2.6s to protect haemotox then I can do the same for manatakaya. Which leads me to my next concern.Niricol + Mantakaya is OP
It's annoying when warriors do it but against any monk with a dust arm action from base/twist (which I believe is every monk except ninjakari) it becomes essentially required to powerfocus paralysis, and even with powerfocusing paralysis and eating faeleaf before other actions you're still hindered from attacking for 1.5s-3s depending on your dust balance before the form hit. My understanding of the paralysis report is that the solution chosen is not going to significantly impact this issue so we need some sort of bandaid for monks.Here are some possible ways we could address this:
- Disallow monks from envenoming mantakaya (or niricol) [This feels the most bandaidy but would probably be best at addressing the immediate issue]
- We could globally increase the shrug rate when mantakaya is applied on a target that's already blind or vice versa (this impacts warriors and I also have no idea if it's viable in the code).
- Disallow everyone from being able to envenom mantakaya (or niricol). This obviously impacts warriors as well.
- Move blindness to steam, this may have a side effect for bards that I'm not properly evaluating, also impacts warriors. Should not be done if pacifism ends up being made into a poison (report 1655), otherwise we will have moved the problem from dust to steam.
- We could reduce the poison transfer rate for monks (which is 50% at base) on afflicting arm attacks, with perhaps some surge gated armed attacks being the exception.
- Or we could reduce base poison transfer rate and restore it based on hemorrhaging (like wounds)
- Or we could reduce the poison transfer rate and restore it (or even boost it) during surge and killer stance.
If we end up going with something that essentially nerfs monk aff rate (like the last 3 of those ideas) then I think monks should be given more choices pre-surge to compensate for that. For example I don't think any monk can do a steam stack at early stances right now, that should be opened up to them if poisons become less reliable for monks.If burst must be a full reset, then my suggestion is this: halve, or even third the insta requirements as well as the hemorrhaging caps.
So, instead of 1500 to kill, monks will need only 750 to kill. Hemorrhaging is now capped at 500 instead of 1250, and everything else works as described in Wobou's post above.
This shortens (more than halves) the time needed to build to instakill levels, so a full reset becomes more palatable, because it's not a case of needing to spend full minutes to hit insta level, invest power to have a tiny and easily hindered window, and then, when it fails, have to spend the entire however many minutes all over again. The time taken to hit that level of hemorrhaging is much shorter, and it also limits how much bleeding is "incurable" - this disincentivizes people from just keeping their target at max hemorrhaging and getting a big health pressure on it - at 500, it's not dangerous enough to be worth the effort to continue to maintain it against the 10s cure timer - a monk is incentivized to burst asap and go for the kill.
Regarding paralysis + blindness, can we have blindness cured by dust instead of faeleaf? That, combined with #1603 will solve the problem. I can't remember why it was kept in faeleaf in the first place - was it to ensure that people can choose to cure blindness via faeleaf instead of having to rely on rng cures? If so, with focus and the concurrent paralysis curing report, it'll put things back into where they are supposed to be: two different hinder affs, but which effectively don't stack.
Blindness being on faeleaf is helpful in curing it because it means you don't need to constantly use *focus to cure it. If it was moved to dust, then dust stacks would become even worse. In order to cure paralysis AND blindness when you have any other dust affs (in order to be able to attack), you'd have to focus twice to ensure you're not stuck waiting an extra 1.5s. For every extra dust aff you greatly increase your chances of waiting 1.5s+ to be able to attack again.
If paralysis AND blind were moved to faeleaf, it'd actually make the situation a lot more mangeable. Faeleaf eating to remove the disables without having to constantly use focus.
Also, report 1603 didn't move paralysis to concurrent, it means paralysis will no longer be a delayed cure.
(I.E. - having only having a minor impact on monks who can stack up dust, but a large impact on warriors)
P.S. I support Wabbu's framework. There will probably need to be further tweaking done, but I think it's an ok place to work from. Monks as they are right now are still out of whack.