Try parry and hinder. Also learn to cure. How people don't understand this is beyond me.
You can't expect to out cure a monk just standing there twiddling your thumbs. The dust stack is getting nerfed. I cure monks dust stack just fine as it is now. It'll be easier for me come the dust nerf. I'll be able to cure off all the deadly afflictions before they get balance back. Sure I'll have to hinder a tiny bit to catch up and cure the weaker afflictions. Heaven forbid I actually have to do something myself! My system won't cure everything while I stand there! How will we ever cope!
Once again, do not continually repeat 'learn to cure'. You are contributing nothing to dialog other than repeating the exact same dismissed refrain. The only thing which is beyond my understanding is how, despite being told many times by both players and administration that there is, in fact an ongoing project to FIX monks because they currently are a PROBLEM in their current release incarnation, you continue to deny the existence of such with a tired retort of 'learn how to cure'.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
Holy crap the condescension is real. You're trolling, right? You tell people to "learn to cure" then barely a sentence later you say the stack's being nerfed?
Surely if something's being nerfed, then "optimal curing" isn't the only factor, yes? It's easy to say you handle things fine, when you're not actually providing evidence to the contrary of what people are saying.
Its quite simple. Sure let me break it down and give you how I'm tanking monks right now.
The Monks stack can be handled right now by focusing off the hemophilia and I am going to repeat this because it seems no one is doing it yet. After you cure the hemophilia off you need to clot away the bleed. Do not clot before you cure the hemophilia. You need to clot after you cure the hemophilia.
These two things are the big thing I'm seeing people fail on constantly.
So far all the complaint and crying logs are simply just a case of people not doing these two basic things. I'm still waiting for people to post logs of them getting destroyed by monks when they cure right.
Well
I've yet to see people clot after curing hemophilia. It seems like
its a big bug in most peoples systems which lets monks with their %
modifier to bleed stack bleeding at an insane level. Like people are
sitting there with 100% mana, curing hemophilia and dying to
bleed.
Its
not a case of people being idiots its a case of people havn't fixed
their curing bugs yet.
I'm just aghast that you think the reason people are saying monks are OP is because they're not even clotting after they cure haemophilia. That's the basis of your argument that monks are ok?
I'm just aghast that you think the reason people are saying monks are OP is because they're not even clotting after they cure haemophilia. That's the basis of your argument that monks are ok?
I'm personally more baffled at her arguing things people aren't complaining about. The bleed itself isn't overly difficult to manage, it is the fact that monks give so many other high priority afflictions alongside haemophilia that makes them hard to deal with.
I have two healingauras, as well as double passive curing from my weapon, and I still get afflictions stacked on me in between timeslips/webs from Tarken/Wobou.
Here here's quick log of tarken trying to kill me and me curing with sub optimal curing. He has a stronger dust stack than most with viscanti. I've prioritized curing hindering afflictions like para which could be improved on. I was thinking of making it so I moved hemophilia to the top of the dust list with over 500 or something bleeding but kept it lower without that. But the monk bleed and dust stack has been easy enough for me to to handle so I've not put a huge amount off effort into fixing or adjusting it to fight monks. I had plenty of time to attack back and cure back my mana and would have been under less pressure if I did my own hindering.
My parry also sucks, I could cut down on a lot of his afflictions if I improved my parry.
I've a log of two monks and a warrior fighting fighting me, fight lasts about sevenish mins but its burried in a bigger log. I'll dig it out and post it within a few days.
If I can grab anelissa and wobou I'll throw up a log of them trying to double team me :>
While I'm doing that can everyone whos complaining about monks fix their systems then post some logs of them getting destroyed? Just because were talking about evidence now. And no ones provided any of monks destroying them yet. (with proper curing)
So your idea of "optimal curing" (as your log shows) is getting horribly lucky RNG on shrugging and Immunity (despite so few actually going that trade) resisting poisons. And Tarken, for whatever reason, refusing to change from hitting your static-parried limbs.
Here here's quick log of tarken trying to kill me and me curing with sub optimal curing. He has a stronger dust stack than most with viscanti. I've prioritized curing hindering afflictions like para which could be improved on. I was thinking of making it so I moved hemophilia to the top of the dust list with over 500 or something bleeding but kept it lower without that. But the monk bleed and dust stack has been easy enough for me to to handle so I've not put a huge amount off effort into fixing or adjusting it to fight monks. I had plenty of time to attack back and cure back my mana and would have been under less pressure if I did my own hindering.
My parry also sucks, I could cut down on a lot of his afflictions if I improved my parry.
I've a log of two monks and a warrior fighting fighting me, fight lasts about sevenish mins but its burried in a bigger log. I'll dig it out and post it within a few days.
Barring the fact that Tarken hit your parry so many times (something he never does when I fight him (I don't even see you shifting parry?)) -- curing and surviving is the first step. Do you have any logs where you can pursue an offense successfully while also getting beaten?
So your idea of "optimal curing" (as your log shows) is getting horribly lucky RNG on shrugging and Immunity (despite so few actually going that trade) resisting poisons. And Tarken, for whatever reason, refusing to change from hitting your static-parried limbs.
Here here's quick log of tarken trying to kill me and me curing with sub optimal curing. He has a stronger dust stack than most with viscanti. I've prioritized curing hindering afflictions like para which could be improved on. I was thinking of making it so I moved hemophilia to the top of the dust list with over 500 or something bleeding but kept it lower without that. But the monk bleed and dust stack has been easy enough for me to to handle so I've not put a huge amount off effort into fixing or adjusting it to fight monks. I had plenty of time to attack back and cure back my mana and would have been under less pressure if I did my own hindering.
My parry also sucks, I could cut down on a lot of his afflictions if I improved my parry.
I've a log of two monks and a warrior fighting fighting me, fight lasts about sevenish mins but its burried in a bigger log. I'll dig it out and post it within a few days.
Barring the fact that Tarken hit your parry so many times (something he never does when I fight him (I don't even see you shifting parry?)) -- curing and surviving is the first step. Do you have any logs where you can pursue an offense successfully while also getting beaten?
Sure yea I'll post a few logs of me fighting fully later as well.
Your own words. Naturally it's not so hard to cure if someone's hitting your parry every other combo, and getting RNG'd out the ass by shrugging/resists/dodging for the rest. That's not really "curing it just fine"
Tarken spar; with him trying to kill me and me just attacking randomly to show how much I can attack and how hindered I am when attacking. No need to comment on my offense I was just setting it up to show its possible to build and fight back without trying to go for the kill. No song so no passive defenses or passive hinder. Again poor parry and no song so I could be way more resistant to him and hinder his hinder better than I am in that log. The hinder they can do is very good but its easy enough to handle and fight back one on one. Throw in a second person stacking on me and I wouldn't be able to attack back but as we said earlier two focused people of any a lot of class combinations are going to lock down a single target while killing them.
So like yea monks right now easy enough to tank, cant really get to a kill level on their own but do throw out a lot of hinder. That's where they are right now.
EDIT: Oh I did use my ecology beast once to throw out some passive hinder but after that wore off it just does 150 bleed when it attacks so no hinder there
Your own words. Naturally it's not so hard to cure if someone's hitting your parry every other combo, and getting RNG'd out the ass by shrugging/resists/dodging for the rest. That's not really "curing it just fine"
I thought we you know balanced a classes offense against other classes defensives? Which yea there are classes like your own that are much more resistant to afflictions than I am.
Oh and sorry if I was being condescending, someone just told me I
was maybe being a bit rude, it wasn't my intention I'm genuinely
confused by the monk complaints when all people are posting are logs
of bad curing so sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.
My anecdotal opinion conforms to the general outlines of what's been said before. It seems like monks are getting to be big damage dealers that also deal a big bulk of afflictions that also deal high prio afflictions that also do lots of general hindering that also have great defense and get to do all of that at the same time. I'm not certain how to fix any of that in an overarching sense without yet another rework, one that abandons the "usually, do three variable actions in a form" concept.
One step would be to remove poisons. Three variable actions/afflictions quickly becomes 4-5 if most of those actions also include dealing a poison affliction on top. As I commented on the relevant report, if monks need more afflicting power and can't do it when poisons are removed, each monk type should get a unique mechanic to meet their specific needs instead of just layering on bonus afflictions from a generic pool.
Another suggestion to patch the overall mechanics (and not just specific edge cases causing problems like haemospam) is basically to force more choice between dealing afflictions, damage, or bleeding. Making monks less of a "do everything all at once" class is a good move. Perhaps one of the ways that could be done is adding in more bifurcation and reliance stances instead of the abilities in the stance, so that the monk is highly encouraged to pick a path to follow on the target in the short term and stick with it, following one or another strategy instead of all of them all at once.
1. Tarken only uses 1 form. It's easy to hinder that with parry, cause it never changes. 2. Poison Tradeskill immunity assists, not everyone has access to Poisons as it is gated by low magic. 3. Ecology bat blocks poisons. 4. Using Chervil which mmf does not do natively alongside clotting (remember that 99.99% of people use mmf out of the box), but top tier combatants should be not using mmf out of the box. 5. Looks like an RoA proc on some damage there, which is fair, top tier should have toys. 6. Acrobatics Dodge - gated by class 7. Things I likely missed.
I am not going to jump on the bandwagon of "prove proper curing", but in truth I don't feel this log proves anything. You are mostly surviving due to a skillset that is gated, by an ent that is gated, and by Tarken only using one form over and over as well as putting up no offense to slow your diagnose, causing other dust affs that would proc to proc (assuming any of such were given, too lazy to double check that).
I mean I will ask Tarken to come in the arena and do the exact same thing to me, I don't have poisons, I am not Eco and even if I was I can't get a bat, but I do have reactives, I will perform the exact same test and see what the outcome is.
I try to be fair and impartial about things, but the hard truth is that some classes are better against other classes, and I am fine with that, but saying "fix your curing" when it clearly shows that your actual curing was not as impactful as claimed is disingenuous if nothing else.
All I am asking for is for people to post logs now that they have fixed their curing. We have yet to see any logs other than mine with people who cure half right.
Lets get the data and plan from there because right now no ones posted a single log with half decent curing.
I tested without ecology and tarken shifting forms as well and had pretty much the same result. Big issue with the dust stack is if he doesnt hit my head he cant really build much of a scary dust stack on me as a neko. Without blind in play the dust stack doesn't really hinder me much. EDIT: I will point out that other monks have better anti parry and I think that could maybe be looked at 5 seconds of no parry what so ever just seems a bit weird to me.
The parry hitting thing is mostly because I only had the one form for the scenario I was trying to push there - I stopped making new ones when it became clear monk would be changing again. That said, Nekotai is the most constrained when it comes to high profile limb targets, so there's probably not a ton I could do differently if I wanted to preserve the blindness hit for the dust pressure. The change I did make was splitting the form up in the followup spar so that the angkhai/sprongma would be on a less profile limb so I'd still get the potential poison/relapse and sprongma hit even if the blindness was parried. To go further than what I have now I'd likely need to create some forms that factor out blindness entirely in favour of alternative pressure, but that's not something I'm willing to invest the time into with changes pending.
Just an update, we've passed around an alternative to Report 1637 to envoys based on the same mechanic with several tweaks. We will be testing it soon and, while it will likely change after implementation, we want to see how it ends up working out.
Bystander semi-facetious solution - Give monk attacks the old warrior RNG aff delivery success mechanic. Base the RNG thresholds for successful rolls off current bleeding/bruising.
Comments
You can't expect to out cure a monk just standing there twiddling your thumbs. The dust stack is getting nerfed. I cure monks dust stack just fine as it is now. It'll be easier for me come the dust nerf. I'll be able to cure off all the deadly afflictions before they get balance back. Sure I'll have to hinder a tiny bit to catch up and cure the weaker afflictions. Heaven forbid I actually have to do something myself! My system won't cure everything while I stand there! How will we ever cope!
Once again, do not continually repeat 'learn to cure'. You are contributing nothing to dialog other than repeating the exact same dismissed refrain.
The only thing which is beyond my understanding is how, despite being told many times by both players and administration that there is, in fact an ongoing project to FIX monks because they currently are a PROBLEM in their current release incarnation, you continue to deny the existence of such with a tired retort of 'learn how to cure'.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
Surely if something's being nerfed, then "optimal curing" isn't the only factor, yes? It's easy to say you handle things fine, when you're not actually providing evidence to the contrary of what people are saying.
Discord: Rey#1460
The Monks stack can be handled right now by focusing off the hemophilia and I am going to repeat this because it seems no one is doing it yet. After you cure the hemophilia off you need to clot away the bleed. Do not clot before you cure the hemophilia. You need to clot after you cure the hemophilia.
These two things are the big thing I'm seeing people fail on constantly.
So far all the complaint and crying logs are simply just a case of people not doing these two basic things. I'm still waiting for people to post logs of them getting destroyed by monks when they cure right.
That's the big reveal that we hadn't yet figured out? You must think we're all idiots.
Wheewww boy.
Well I've yet to see people clot after curing hemophilia. It seems like its a big bug in most peoples systems which lets monks with their % modifier to bleed stack bleeding at an insane level. Like people are sitting there with 100% mana, curing hemophilia and dying to bleed.
Its not a case of people being idiots its a case of people havn't fixed their curing bugs yet.
I have two healingauras, as well as double passive curing from my weapon, and I still get afflictions stacked on me in between timeslips/webs from Tarken/Wobou.
Discord: Rey#1460
My parry also sucks, I could cut down on a lot of his afflictions if I improved my parry.
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/1gsDmJZs
I've a log of two monks and a warrior fighting fighting me, fight lasts about sevenish mins but its burried in a bigger log. I'll dig it out and post it within a few days.
While I'm doing that can everyone whos complaining about monks fix their systems then post some logs of them getting destroyed? Just because were talking about evidence now. And no ones provided any of monks destroying them yet. (with proper curing)
Great.
Discord: Rey#1460
I said sub optimal.
Sure yea I'll post a few logs of me fighting fully later as well.
Discord: Rey#1460
Tarken spar; with him trying to kill me and me just attacking randomly to show how much I can attack and how hindered I am when attacking. No need to comment on my offense I was just setting it up to show its possible to build and fight back without trying to go for the kill. No song so no passive defenses or passive hinder. Again poor parry and no song so I could be way more resistant to him and hinder his hinder better than I am in that log. The hinder they can do is very good but its easy enough to handle and fight back one on one. Throw in a second person stacking on me and I wouldn't be able to attack back but as we said earlier two focused people of any a lot of class combinations are going to lock down a single target while killing them.
So like yea monks right now easy enough to tank, cant really get to a kill level on their own but do throw out a lot of hinder. That's where they are right now.
EDIT: Oh I did use my ecology beast once to throw out some passive hinder but after that wore off it just does 150 bleed when it attacks so no hinder there
"1 of 72"
CTRL+F: resist
"1 of 20"
CTRL+F: shrug
"1 of 63"
CTRL+F: You jump aside
"1 of 27"
Discord: Rey#1460
I thought we you know balanced a classes offense against other classes defensives? Which yea there are classes like your own that are much more resistant to afflictions than I am.
About 10 of ~34 classes have some degree of passive curing.
Oh and sorry if I was being condescending, someone just told me I was maybe being a bit rude, it wasn't my intention I'm genuinely confused by the monk complaints when all people are posting are logs of bad curing so sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.
One step would be to remove poisons. Three variable actions/afflictions quickly becomes 4-5 if most of those actions also include dealing a poison affliction on top. As I commented on the relevant report, if monks need more afflicting power and can't do it when poisons are removed, each monk type should get a unique mechanic to meet their specific needs instead of just layering on bonus afflictions from a generic pool.
Another suggestion to patch the overall mechanics (and not just specific edge cases causing problems like haemospam) is basically to force more choice between dealing afflictions, damage, or bleeding. Making monks less of a "do everything all at once" class is a good move. Perhaps one of the ways that could be done is adding in more bifurcation and reliance stances instead of the abilities in the stance, so that the monk is highly encouraged to pick a path to follow on the target in the short term and stick with it, following one or another strategy instead of all of them all at once.
1. Tarken only uses 1 form. It's easy to hinder that with parry, cause it never changes.
2. Poison Tradeskill immunity assists, not everyone has access to Poisons as it is gated by low magic.
3. Ecology bat blocks poisons.
4. Using Chervil which mmf does not do natively alongside clotting (remember that 99.99% of people use mmf out of the box), but top tier combatants should be not using mmf out of the box.
5. Looks like an RoA proc on some damage there, which is fair, top tier should have toys.
6. Acrobatics Dodge - gated by class
7. Things I likely missed.
I am not going to jump on the bandwagon of "prove proper curing", but in truth I don't feel this log proves anything. You are mostly surviving due to a skillset that is gated, by an ent that is gated, and by Tarken only using one form over and over as well as putting up no offense to slow your diagnose, causing other dust affs that would proc to proc (assuming any of such were given, too lazy to double check that).
I mean I will ask Tarken to come in the arena and do the exact same thing to me, I don't have poisons, I am not Eco and even if I was I can't get a bat, but I do have reactives, I will perform the exact same test and see what the outcome is.
I try to be fair and impartial about things, but the hard truth is that some classes are better against other classes, and I am fine with that, but saying "fix your curing" when it clearly shows that your actual curing was not as impactful as claimed is disingenuous if nothing else.
Lets get the data and plan from there because right now no ones posted a single log with half decent curing.
I tested without ecology and tarken shifting forms as well and had pretty much the same result. Big issue with the dust stack is if he doesnt hit my head he cant really build much of a scary dust stack on me as a neko. Without blind in play the dust stack doesn't really hinder me much. EDIT: I will point out that other monks have better anti parry and I think that could maybe be looked at 5 seconds of no parry what so ever just seems a bit weird to me.
mmf has some issues which are being sorted as we speak.
It may be to easy for monks to reapply haemophilia, will see after some mmf fixes.
I also have a larger log where it was stalemated, but ada won't host it. If you want to see it I can provide it through alternate means.
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/tN1vg4e7
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/7U0lryza
Details coming soon.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gp5ymwv7s6v4e2q/TarkenSpar2.html?dl=0
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it