Any plans for implementing the malus other IREs have for more than 3 people on a target?

Tambador

IIRC the other IRE MUDs all have a malus for hits for every player over 3 attacking a single target. Being new to PvP here it seems pretty BLAH honesty that the first target for each group pretty much gets overwhelmed with afflictions or stuns and the other side just drops a decap or other kill on them. Going to a malus based for hits for any over 3 would actually make teams have to think about strategy which 2-3 people do you put on who. It also means the first person targeted isn't just LOL 10-20 seconds decap'd or otherwise dead. These are not impacted by things like melds or other area effects just direct physical attacks. 

Ciaran

It's been mentioned before.  I'm a big fan of the idea, but the admin are also dealing with a lot of fallout from the overhaul.  I would say their plate is a little bit full at the moment to take on another radical change, but you never know!

Maligorn

If the 1st target is LOL DECAPPED or beaten to death by 11 people targeting them...that's a reasonable outcome to expect.

EXCEPT -- the allies of this 1st target should be getting them out of the room via gust or empress or something similar.

Karsav

Tambador said:

IIRC the other IRE MUDs all have a malus for hits for every player over 3 attacking a single target. 

I've played all of the other IRE muds and none of them have anything like this.

It always seems to come up, but the truth is that it's very easy in these games to wind up with scenarios in which 3 skilled and artifacted people can trash 6 'normal' people pretty easily. All this debuff really does is make it even harder to defend against those situations.

Enyalida

Midkemia had it. 

Lusternia used to have it (or something like it) for warriors.

Karsav

Midkemia had like a dozen active players and it closed, it is not the best example here.

Tambador

Impy had it or so I am told and Achaea used to have it as well and yes Lusty used to have it as well for warriors. And sorry if this is solely aimed at artied players that's silly because killing any player in 10-20secs with a LOL decap or other insta because they are over hindered or overafflicted because 6-10-15 people are attacking them is just silly. 

Shuyin

Actually I do think that if 11 capable people want you to die, you should die. Anytime it doesn't happen should be treated as a miracle.

Tambador

I guess I am too logical in a fight with someone swinging a huge battleaxe at someone else who is whirling around a greatsword or a chain you probably aren't going to get 11 people to be able to effectively attack them. People are not standing still as stone going attack me, highly unlikely you're going to jump into the middle of even 3-4 people and decap someone or even stab them. There is a reason a good martial artist can hold off a larger number of attackers because they end up getting in each other's way. Think about football  there is no way all 11 defenders on a football team can get at the ball carrier they run into and slam into each other with even 3 or 4 people decreasing their effectiveness. 

Maligorn

Okay, well, that's cool and all, but I can point my staff at you from at least two rooms away -- what makes you think I can't thread the needle and staff you point blank too? Or other similar magical/ranged attacks?

I would be livid if someone escaped because of diminishing returns on damage. I can see the draw about it, but seriously, if your friends aren't helping you, find better friends. Or train your friends better.

EDIT: I wouldn't be mad if warriors got that weapon-interfering mechanic back in place, but I'm a mean person that doesn't like warriors. =x

Tambador

Actually IMO the malus should apply ranged attacks as well unless they are AoE type attacks because again with a minimum of 4 people swirling around you are as likely to hit one of your buddies as you are me. Tell you what let me stick you mother brother father or wife son daughter or whatever 3 people you like swirling around in a room 20 feet away and let the best archer in the world take a shot at me ?

Yarith

Applying realism to fantasy games is a fallacy.

EDIT: Besides, if we're going that route we may as well say that if my Igasho warrior is fighting someone everything else in the game is obstructed due to the sheer size.

Tambador

Ummmm Lots of MMO Fantasy games you can't get into attack Mobs or other players if you can't get past your buddies. 

Yarith

Right. Lusternia isn't lots of MMO fantasy games. I think most of us like the game as it is without a limited system. A lot of the artifacts and skills we have, particularly reactives and procs like vitality/shieldbuffs/wonderbelt/chemanticsreacits/scissorflip-types-reality/etc benefit|rely on being able to hit a lot of people. This would also have a profound influence on bards and mages which would skewer the pvp scene away from the harmony we have between those specs. 

EDIT: I understand that the proposal is a malus and not a disability to hit but I really don't think people think it's necessary. I certainly don't. 

Tambador

See you just said don't apply reality to fantasy games and I showed you perfect examples of it, including other IREs and you back away from it. Not sure it impact bards or mages any more than it does any other class, please explain? 

Xenthos

Tambador said:

Ummmm Lots of MMO Fantasy games you can't get into attack Mobs or other players if you can't get past your buddies. 

Those ones tend to have graphics-- you know, where you can easily position things.  And you can block off attacks by using terrain, or by positioning your own friends to block routes others have to get to you, differing sizes of creatures, and all the fun that comes with strategical positioning.

Not so easy to have the full spectrum in a text-based game, and just having "x people are hitting you so they are randomly reduced in effectiveness despite no actual tactical strategy being used" strikes me as a bit half-baked.  /shrug

I don't particularly know how it's set up in the other MUDs you're speaking of as I don't play them.  Do they actually go the whole way?  Or is it just the half-done partial thing?

Yarith

Escaping in lusternia is easy. Really easy. 
Limiting the way people can hinder you just lets people escape. Even in groups of 7+ people hitting you, you can often start tumble/leap, especially with the existence of prismatic|trueheal-like abilities. 

The proposed malus would make that even easier.

Karsav

Xenthos said:
I don't particularly know how it's set up in the other MUDs you're speaking of as I don't play them.  Do they actually go the whole way?  Or is it just the half-done partial thing?

They don't do it at all. There are no group-combat maluses in Achaea, Imperian, or Aetolia. This is because it's a bad idea.

The most you will get is various things with a cooldown. Can't vivisect after a kai cripple, can't absolve after an enfeeble, can't BBT an impaled guy, etc.

Xenthos

Okay, we have some of those restrictions too (including cooldowns on reapplying certain afflictions, so as to reduce spamming them).

Tambador

@Yarith how would a malus impact bards or mages any more than any other class? 

Yarith

I wonder.

Breandryn

Karsav said:

Xenthos said:
I don't particularly know how it's set up in the other MUDs you're speaking of as I don't play them.  Do they actually go the whole way?  Or is it just the half-done partial thing?

They don't do it at all. There are no group-combat maluses in Achaea, Imperian, or Aetolia. This is because it's a bad idea.

The most you will get is various things with a cooldown. Can't vivisect after a kai cripple, can't absolve after an enfeeble, can't BBT an impaled guy, etc.

Well, technically there is the sect of blades crown in Aetolia, which does exactly what Tambador is describing.

Saran

Tambador said:

@Yarith how would a malus impact bards or mages any more than any other class? 

It seems likely that a blunt implementation involving them would be problematic given their aoe.

I.E if their aoe attacks counted the same as say warrior attacks when they are not directly targeting the target, well then you hit diminishing returns quickly.
That said, the more logical implementation would have considerations for aoe vs direct attacks.

And ultimately, the realism argument well... it changes constantly, it's bad if it negatively affects the individual, it's fine if it doesn't affect them, and it's good if it positively affects them.


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@Xenthos, probably the cleanest implementation I've seen is one where you had the room and by default everyone was at range, with various ways to a move into melee.

Once you are in melee range you had an option on your prompt that would list everyone that you were in melee range of, which was the person you'd approached as well as everyone else in melee range of them, either because they'd approached the same person, or because they'd approached someone who is in melee range of them. Effectively creating a melee grouping.

Doing something like that in lusternia could offer another layer on top of combat with classes likely having a preferred range, tools to help them maintain that range, as well as other things like pbaoes that only affect your melee grouping, or an equivalent of gtaoes that affect the grouping of your target, as well as any other considerations for the benefits of your range.

Ranged attacks might do less damage by default, but it's probably safer for your melder and the like to stay at that range. An Aeromancer might be able to surround a melee grouping with winds making it more difficult to enter or withdraw from the group but perhaps preventing any ranged attacks in either direction.

It seems like it would potentially be a bit simpler than combat now as you would have the ability to engage and disengage without having to leave the room, could also open up the possibility of archery.

Karsav

Saran said:

Doing something like that in lusternia could offer another layer on top of combat with classes likely having a preferred range, tools to help them maintain that range, as well as other things like pbaoes that only affect your melee grouping, or an equivalent of gtaoes that affect the grouping of your target, as well as any other considerations for the benefits of your range.

This is never a good idea in a game like this.

It's no fun when fights are nothing but one character trying to break to range while the other character chases. Those kinds of fights can work in games like WoW where kiting and escaping and such is a matter of skill, but they're no fun at all in a text game where kiting is less skill-based and more "does piety let me go?"

Saran

Karsav said:

Saran said:

Doing something like that in lusternia could offer another layer on top of combat with classes likely having a preferred range, tools to help them maintain that range, as well as other things like pbaoes that only affect your melee grouping, or an equivalent of gtaoes that affect the grouping of your target, as well as any other considerations for the benefits of your range.

This is never a good idea in a game like this.

It's no fun when fights are nothing but one character trying to break to range while the other character chases. Those kinds of fights can work in games like WoW where kiting and escaping and such is a matter of skill, but they're no fun at all in a text game where kiting is less skill-based and more "does piety let me go?"

You're entirely wrong with this, ranges already exist in Lusternia they are currently referred to as rooms. We have a variety of skills that enable people to enter and leave rooms as well as skills to prevent travel in one or both such directions both for a single exit as well as across multiple exits.

Any system like the one I referenced simply means that a more dynamic fight would take place in a single room.
In reality, such a system would likely be balanced in a way that the majority of duels take place in melee range.
However, in a team fight situation you have the potential for the various classes to have methods for shifting your range just as we already do for moving between rooms.

I'd also highlight Matt announced in Starmourn that there will be the prop system which seems to also provide ranges through allowing players to enter cover and climb on objects. Both protect you from melee until someone joins you behind the cover or on top of whatever it is, and cover also offers protection from ranged attacks.
They're also randomly generated in each room so it seems like you might potentially have to deal with up to six different instances of cover and/or climbables... that are different in each room... which might also be explosive.

Issey

Even as nice as this might be there is a great chance it won't happen due to the "well we don't have to be like other games" mentality

Saran

Issey said:

Even as nice as this might be there is a great chance it won't happen due to the "well we don't have to be like other games" mentality

Of course, the counter to this is that other games do things for a reason and if those reasons apply to us we should consider doing them as well, perhaps it could even be considered evidence that we need to. (Perhaps not this directly, but as a general thing)

Multiclassing and the faction overhaul are the most direct examples as I believe the argument of being unique was used against them when the ideas were raised prior to the admin agreeing to implement them. Another example might be the gold generation stuff, afaik it basically hit all of the games at the same time?

edit: Another.... that sect of blades thing looks interesting, combatants might enjoy that as a better version of the combat rankings :P

Karsav

Saran said:

You're entirely wrong with this, ranges already exist in Lusternia they are currently referred to as rooms. We have a variety of skills that enable people to enter and leave rooms as well as skills to prevent travel in one or both such directions both for a single exit as well as across multiple exits.

...

I'd also highlight Matt announced in Starmourn that there will be the prop system which seems to also provide ranges through allowing players to enter cover and climb on objects. Both protect you from melee until someone joins you behind the cover or on top of whatever it is, and cover also offers protection from ranged attacks. 

For the first part, those mysterious "room" things you talk about are different from an "every class has a preferred range!" system, because every profession has a preferred range of "in the same room as the person I am trying to kill".  There is a reason for this, and that reason is that the combat system in these games doesn't work when one side is always trying to escape and the other side is always chasing.

For the second part, Starmourn is being built from the ground up with their prop system in mind and nobody actually has any idea how it will work out. I could think of ways to build a combat system around that kind of thing, but patching it into an existing system is basically impossible without rebuilding combat from the ground up.

Saran

Karsav said:

Saran said:

You're entirely wrong with this, ranges already exist in Lusternia they are currently referred to as rooms. We have a variety of skills that enable people to enter and leave rooms as well as skills to prevent travel in one or both such directions both for a single exit as well as across multiple exits.

...

I'd also highlight Matt announced in Starmourn that there will be the prop system which seems to also provide ranges through allowing players to enter cover and climb on objects. Both protect you from melee until someone joins you behind the cover or on top of whatever it is, and cover also offers protection from ranged attacks. 

For the first part, those mysterious "room" things you talk about are different from an "every class has a preferred range!" system, because every profession has a preferred range of "in the same room as the person I am trying to kill".  There is a reason for this, and that reason is that the combat system in these games doesn't work when one side is always trying to escape and the other side is always chasing.

For the second part, Starmourn is being built from the ground up with their prop system in mind and nobody actually has any idea how it will work out. I could think of ways to build a combat system around that kind of thing, but patching it into an existing system is basically impossible without rebuilding combat from the ground up.

Yes, and the issue that this thread is about is the zerg and if/how to resolve that as an issue. Indeed my original post here was telling Xenthos about a system where positioning is involved and how it might be added to lusternia. Then you claimed such is "never a good idea" in a text based game, yet it already exists and is being implemented in the lastest IRE game. 

Afaik, it's a truism that when one side is always trying to escape they'll get away and not be killed, people have skills to prevent this. Indeed, if you're spending all of your time running away then you're not really doing anything to kill the target. This is the status quo so I'm not sure why you're so worried about that aspect... though technically if a melder wanted to they could stand in an adjacent room and fire at the target from range if they wanted to avoid being in the same room as the person they are trying to kill as long as their allies are in well... melee range.

Regarding the difficulty... at the end of the day, things change in games, they have to as no design is perfect, it's especially important in mmos.

If the zerg is considered an issue then solutions should be discussed, if the blunt tool of diminishing returns is suitable we should use that. If people aren't happy with that, then it might be worth looking into a more complex solution.

Karsav

I think we might be talking past each other here.

When I hear about different ranges, what I think of is something like this: An archer wants to fight at medium range while the swordsman wants to fight at melee range. Because of this, the fight basically has two phases. Archer trying to escape swordsman and swordsman trying to catch archer. As soon as the swordsman closes to melee range, the archer tries to escape it. As soon as the archer makes it to range, the swordsman tries to close the gap. This is the exact scenario that happened in Imperian when Bowmanship was introduced. 

In that scenario the archer isn't trying to run away from the fight. The archer is trying to make it out to bow range to continue the fight. This doesn't work at all because the game isn't designed around this kind of fight at all. I feel like any attempt to solve the so-called 'zerg problem' by adding ranges is going to fail by adding even more complications to the game along these lines.

Saran

@Karsav as specifically mentioned in the most recent post you quoted, I would expect such a system would be balanced to preference melee range in the single target example that you're providing.

It should be accepted that running is going to get neither party anywhere, but that's actually okay, running to get a breather is a normal part of combat here. Classes should still be able to function in melee range of each other, however, if I'm melding in a group scenario you better believe I'm going to be trying to keep myself out of melee, my allies are probably going to try to help out with that which can help create tanks if people have the skills.

Range would be safer but there should be disadvantages to it.