2x afflictions from the poison table every two seconds that builds aurawarp to an instant kill. With the extra one affliction to be reset every 5seconds thats pretty hefty affliction stacking and hinderance.
That's pretty good on paper could you test just spamming something like mantakaya, dulak bedevil and the bend aura? See if it builds to instant kill level at a decent pace?
I didn't use Bedevil (except once, I think). I tried a few different rotations to see what would build aurawarp the best. Aeonfield wasn't worth it due to pheremones (I probably could've disrupted it away, but didn't bother here, it wasn't necessary in the end anyway). I'm still missing a bunch of highlights and getting used to things, so this was pretty sloppy.
Impressions: Aurawarp curing is probably a bit too slow. Auras need a nerf at low empathy. Phlegmatic group is too strong with flay/bendaura.
Here's my end for those curious. I had just added aura warp to my system so I'm sure there's some curing errors and there's definitely diagnostic echoes and stuff so my apologies for those: https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/yJCjPt45
Just a quick thought before I go to work, glancing through Shedrin's log.
I actually feel the aurawarp rates are sorta nice feeling, but that might be because of unoptimised strategies and curing at this stage. For the vast majority of the first part, there wasn't much headway being made by Shedrin, but aurawarp's stickiness made it possible to keep some progress on the target even if the afflictions got cured away. Wobou managed to reset the progress a number of times, though.
The endgame felt very dependent on aeon. The clincher was the short period where the aeon+asthma combo got stuck on Wobou for a while at 14:01:10:651651. Though there was some hiccup of aeon curing there too, for some reason, he didn't cure it even though Shedrin mistakenly flayed before malefacting. But as a result, he got stuck in aeon for 10s, which basically became the lynchpin for letting aurawarp build to levels where it probably passed some threshold where curing it just slows down to the stage where the healer can maintain it in a straight mathematical fight - which was what Shedrin did. If such a long aeon period is needed to get aurawarp to the threshold, then I don't think it's a good thing. (Aeon is =/)
That was also the period when Wobou got triple-tapped by passive aurawarp just before/after aeon wore off, bringing him from moderate straight to massive aurawarp. (14:01:23:201201).
Which brings me to my next question, what is giving him the passive aurawarp ticks? I know flay is in there somewhere, but three in short succession in there seemed weird. I'm probably missing some healing ability somewhere. In the three-warp-burst I'm describing, one came with your crystal passives, one came alone, and the last one came with a bentaura cure, if I'm not wrong, all within the space of a couple of seconds, so they should be from different sources. One of which possibly came from a flay you used earlier, but that still leaves one more unaccounted for.
Another couple of questions:
What gave Wobou transfix at 14:01:06:604604
What gave Wobou aeon at 14:01:10:651651
I haven't checked Wobou's log, so I don't know if the answer to those two are in there, but I was just wondering if those were from bentaura.
Generally speaking, it looks to me like the implementation of aurawarp is one where even after the target cures off all the healer's afflictions, some aurawarp remains. Aurawarp curing is basically long and slow - but the amount of aurawarp needed to build is also fairly long. This makes a healer fight a sustainability/attrition fight rather than a burst fight. I'm not sure if that's the intended direction, but that's how that spar looked like to me, at least.
Also, flay is good. Other than the few flays done when there was no affliction on the target, Shedrin built a lot of affliction/aurawarp pressure using it.
Not sure how it works, but my assumption is that paralysis would (should) prevent its use. Same with blindness.
Testing with it a little, bedevil does not seem to be stopped by anything and also may be a little bit broken, it seemed to be hitting much much faster than 2 seconds. Could be bugged but didn't get a chance to test it fully but it didn't seem to use balance correctly.
@Lerad Bend aura is whats basically giving passive aura build.
160.785 he smokes to cure to massively warped.
164.453 he smokes to cure aeon and is left at completely twisted.
So it seems the aurawarp builds passivly and with no messages.
It's a bad idea to assume asthma AND anorexia on malefact while not under aeon, Wobou. That screwed your aeon curing in the part I mentioned. That, and you need to make your system not invoke green when you're under recklessness. You had zero power because you were using it so offensively, and recklessness came up at the same time as that aeon, and your system tried to invoke green on a loop because it thought it had power when it didn't, and it thought you had asthma/aeon/anorexia when you didn't. And then you actually did get asthma/aeon, and later on, anorexia and, as they say, everything else is history.
You need to use beastfocus to cure asthma/anorexia under aeon. That and maybe lay back on the offensive power use a little. Sure, that gives you 3k+ damage attacks very often, but it isn't going to overpower a healer institute, really. Go with bleed if you want to do that. More importantly, save some power for green or powerfocus. But man, your luck was ridiculously bad. First, you got transfix from bentaura:
And then you got aeon from bentaura off a paralysis cure from the malefact where you assumed asthma/anorexia:
And because your system still thought you had anorexia/asthma... well.
Malefactgem can't give anorexia, iirc, so don't bother assuming that (not sure if you're assuming it from there). Assume asthma from malefactgem only if you are under aeon. Use diagnose to properly find unknown affs instead of having your system assume everything - too dangerous with aeon. I can't find a single diagnose in this log, Wobou, tsk tsk. Institutes have two passive hidden afflictions and one active hidden affliction. Not diagnosing is... not a good idea. Granted, your system does handle them well most of the time, but lean on that too much and you get screwed as in the case above.
Anyway, back to the triple aurawarp. It looks like the afflicted doesn't get a message when they get aurawarp, only when they smoke steam and it cures it, so I can't tell what is giving aurawarp from Wobou's log, unfortunately.
Not sure how it works, but my assumption is that paralysis would (should) prevent its use. Same with blindness.
Testing with it a little, bedevil does not seem to be stopped by anything and also may be a little bit broken, it seemed to be hitting much much faster than 2 seconds. Could be bugged but didn't get a chance to test it fully but it didn't seem to use balance correctly.
@Lerad Bend aura is whats basically giving passive aura build.
160.785 he smokes to cure to massively warped.
164.453 he smokes to cure aeon and is left at completely twisted.
So it seems the aurawarp builds passivly and with no messages.
If you look at this part, there's two extra aurawarp ticks that isn't from bentaura:
Only the last one is from bentaura (you see Wobou sipping, and it giving aurawarp at the same time, pushing it to massive). The first one was with a sapphire crystal tick, and the second one was with nothing - just happens in between prompts. From Wobou's side, nothing is seen, all three were silent:
The sapphire ticked, no message. No message until the lucidity sip, which triggered bentaura (which gave him tempinsanity) and still no aurawarp message. This also implies that the flay affliction is entirely silent. I'm not sure how I feel about this, Verioth did say some of the information is being withheld on purpose, but entirely silent afflicting? Not even an "unknown affliction" aff message? I'm not sure if I like that.
Of course, then again, I might be wrong, and flay afflicting might actually have a message. But, if it does, then this means there are two unaccounted for aurawarp ticks from the triple aurawarp here. Which would be ??
Well more logs are needed, for sure. At the very least, I ran a search for the soothing steam recovery message on Wobou's log and scanned through it quickly, and it seems like his system would smoke every chance it gets if it knows it has aurawarp. Which means, Wobou was curing aurawarp as much as he can detect it. Not exactly optimised, probably, but he's doing it without major mistakes. So we can probably use this log as a benchmark of aurawarp afflicting/curing speeds.
You probably need to work on optimising your flay casts a little - flaying without an affliction on the target wastes the power, if I'm reading the AB files right, and you did so a number of times. But once you have it down more efficiently, I'm guessing it would give you a lot of affliction pressure and aurawarp mileage. The wide range of institute affs makes it harder to flay a specific aff type to capitalize on it, but I'm guessing classes with more focused affs to cast can use targeted flays to build strong pressure quickly. I guess that sort of validates your feeling that aurawarp curing needs to be a little faster, maybe. Can't say for sure until we have more logs, I guess.
Flay can't fail in that way. If the target has no afflictions / afflictions of that type, you get a message and it doesn't take eq or power. Probably ideally I'd flay phlegmatic, as that group is very strong.
But there was no affliction there to flay, right? Sickly red light, resonance, bent aura is incurable. Insomnia/unable to be masochistic is not an aff. So is flay going off warped aura or bleeding? If so, what aff type would it fall under? Sanguine?
I'm not sure if that's desirable. Bleeding is very easily given, and using that to catapult into one of the sanguine affs almost makes the "target must have an aff" limitation of flay pointless. It is significantly difficult to catch someone with an uncured aff when you recover balance, but catching someone with bleeding? That's very easy.
Also, I had an idea. I went back to that triple (actually, now that I look closely, there was 4 aurawarp ticks) aurawarp tick area, and I compared the two logs to see what Wobou cured in between. It turned out that inbetween your discernments of Wobou's affs, those silent aurawarp ticks didn't give any extra afflictions. The list of afflictions between what Wobou had and what he cured inbetween your two discernments matched up. He had received no silent afflictions in between.
Plus the fact that the last flay you did before that burst of aurawarp ticks was at 14:01:11:683683, and the burst happened at 14:01:23 onwards, that means it's even less likely to be from flay, because that'd be a 12s delay between the flaying and those aurawarp ticks. We'll probably want to find out what those aurawarp ticks are from.
You can flay native insomnia and deaf|blind beneath truehearing/trueblind.
I... see, so it'll give mania or sensory affs, basically all the time, at least. So there's no point in limiting flay to not do anything when there's no affliction, because, well, no one's going to go into a fight without insomnia at least. Mmmph.
@Lerad Yeah I definitely have some system issues that were revealed by this. I'm probably just going to remove the greening on asthma + aeon. I initially put it in there as an anti-researcher measure but I think I have better measures to use against them now and it's definitely bitten me in the butt before. I usually keep my reserves up so I also have a lot of holes in my system when power gets low (like the recklessness bug you saw).
I'm a super huge fan of trying to code away the need to diagnose. I feel like as a monk it gives me an edge if I can diagnose as little as possible.
@Veyils according to the log it looks like bedevil works when paralysed, but not when blind. After re-reading the AB files I think the intention is that nothing would stop bedevil outside of sleep/stun, but I also think it's a design flaw. If bedevil always cures 2 affs and cannot really be hindered, basically no class outside of maybe SD will be able to kill a healer 1v1.
My recommendation would be to make bedevil only cure affs if you have empathy, but allow it to remain as a way to afflict the target with two afflictions that you have (because it's a really interesting mechanic).
It looks like a really awesome skillset by the way. Healing was always going to be really hard to balance, but with the huge mana costs for self-heal and the empathy mechanics, I think the @admin have managed to at least get the framework right to make it a useful, interesting, and tempting tertiary. Way to go whoever designed it!
Yeah I think bedevil has some issues that are especially evident 1v1. The fact that I can transfer vessels back over to you faster than you can give them to me is pretty lol though (and needs to be fixed one way or another)
Hmm it counts vessels as one affliction. I wonder if it does the same for let's say insanity or timewarp? Could you bedevil bomb someone to full timewarp for a near instant quake?
Hmm it counts vessels as one affliction. I wonder if it does the same for let's say insanity or timewarp? Could you bedevil bomb someone to full timewarp for a near instant quake?
Yes. Just like you can do a full vessel stack for insta heartburst.
Well, yeah. Bedevil probably should have some limits tacked on it as suggested by Shedrin.
I'm thinking we could probably remove vessels and the tempinsan/timewarp/aurawarp afflictions from the bedevil pool, so it'll not be able to transfer those, if we want an easy fix. If the admin are willing to go to the trouble of having it count and remove only one instance of those per bedevil affliction, that can work as well.
Vessels/timewarp/aurawarp/Insanity definitely shouldn't be transferable. For rather obvious reasons. I wonder if auric effects can be, if you're affected by Octave.
War is gonna be a "fun" seal, if the former remains as is.
Well I perhaps would be ok with them being partially transferable. Let bedevil transfer only one vessel per cast for example.
I am curious as to how it interacts with Auric's as well? Can someone give that a little test?
I mean right now it's offensively very powerful even with just sipping poisons and throwing them out.
Overall bedevil seems very powerful as a defensive tool as well. I'm not sure it should be so spammable. I kind of like Ciarans rough idea of linking it into empathy so that if you spam it too much eventually it'll cost way to much to use or perhaps even increase its balance use so if you keep using it the balance gets too long to be effective.
Well I perhaps would be ok with them being partially transferable. Let bedevil transfer only one vessel per cast for example.
The thing is, bedevil can be used while off bal from bedevil. As you can see here. - Yes the balance loss stacks, but the fact it's doable in the first place seems like an -extreme- oversight. Considering it takes much, much longer than that balance loss, to get those vessels back to that level.
Oh, hmm, I didn't realize that since I was just using stratagems. Yeah, bug it.
Constructively, what other balancing measures for bedevil can we think of? I personally really like the idea of giving your affs to the target, but if it cures you of those affs, it makes you basically invincible 1v1.
Either you can give bedevil a power cost, a cooldown timer, or change how it works. I'm in favor of nerfing the curing, but keeping it offensively strong, but I'm biased.
Well I perhaps would be ok with them being partially transferable. Let bedevil transfer only one vessel per cast for example.
The thing is, bedevil can be used while off bal from bedevil. As you can see here. - Yes the balance loss stacks, but the fact it's doable in the first place seems like an -extreme- oversight. Considering it takes much, much longer than that balance loss, to get those vessels back to that level.
I assumed that was a bug as well you shouldn't be able to do that I think. The same bug happened to the analyze all skill but that was fixed pretty quickly, just bug it yourself to be sure though.
Comments
That's pretty good on paper could you test just spamming something like mantakaya, dulak bedevil and the bend aura? See if it builds to instant kill level at a decent pace?
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/fU5cXSTy
I didn't use Bedevil (except once, I think). I tried a few different rotations to see what would build aurawarp the best. Aeonfield wasn't worth it due to pheremones (I probably could've disrupted it away, but didn't bother here, it wasn't necessary in the end anyway). I'm still missing a bunch of highlights and getting used to things, so this was pretty sloppy.
Impressions: Aurawarp curing is probably a bit too slow. Auras need a nerf at low empathy. Phlegmatic group is too strong with flay/bendaura.
I actually feel the aurawarp rates are sorta nice feeling, but that might be because of unoptimised strategies and curing at this stage. For the vast majority of the first part, there wasn't much headway being made by Shedrin, but aurawarp's stickiness made it possible to keep some progress on the target even if the afflictions got cured away. Wobou managed to reset the progress a number of times, though.
The endgame felt very dependent on aeon. The clincher was the short period where the aeon+asthma combo got stuck on Wobou for a while at 14:01:10:651651. Though there was some hiccup of aeon curing there too, for some reason, he didn't cure it even though Shedrin mistakenly flayed before malefacting. But as a result, he got stuck in aeon for 10s, which basically became the lynchpin for letting aurawarp build to levels where it probably passed some threshold where curing it just slows down to the stage where the healer can maintain it in a straight mathematical fight - which was what Shedrin did. If such a long aeon period is needed to get aurawarp to the threshold, then I don't think it's a good thing. (Aeon is =/)
That was also the period when Wobou got triple-tapped by passive aurawarp just before/after aeon wore off, bringing him from moderate straight to massive aurawarp. (14:01:23:201201).
Which brings me to my next question, what is giving him the passive aurawarp ticks? I know flay is in there somewhere, but three in short succession in there seemed weird. I'm probably missing some healing ability somewhere. In the three-warp-burst I'm describing, one came with your crystal passives, one came alone, and the last one came with a bentaura cure, if I'm not wrong, all within the space of a couple of seconds, so they should be from different sources. One of which possibly came from a flay you used earlier, but that still leaves one more unaccounted for.
Another couple of questions:
I haven't checked Wobou's log, so I don't know if the answer to those two are in there, but I was just wondering if those were from bentaura.
Generally speaking, it looks to me like the implementation of aurawarp is one where even after the target cures off all the healer's afflictions, some aurawarp remains. Aurawarp curing is basically long and slow - but the amount of aurawarp needed to build is also fairly long. This makes a healer fight a sustainability/attrition fight rather than a burst fight. I'm not sure if that's the intended direction, but that's how that spar looked like to me, at least.
Also, flay is good. Other than the few flays done when there was no affliction on the target, Shedrin built a lot of affliction/aurawarp pressure using it.
@Lerad Bend aura is whats basically giving passive aura build.
It's a bad idea to assume asthma AND anorexia on malefact while not under aeon, Wobou. That screwed your aeon curing in the part I mentioned. That, and you need to make your system not invoke green when you're under recklessness. You had zero power because you were using it so offensively, and recklessness came up at the same time as that aeon, and your system tried to invoke green on a loop because it thought it had power when it didn't, and it thought you had asthma/aeon/anorexia when you didn't. And then you actually did get asthma/aeon, and later on, anorexia and, as they say, everything else is history.
You need to use beastfocus to cure asthma/anorexia under aeon. That and maybe lay back on the offensive power use a little. Sure, that gives you 3k+ damage attacks very often, but it isn't going to overpower a healer institute, really. Go with bleed if you want to do that. More importantly, save some power for green or powerfocus. But man, your luck was ridiculously bad. First, you got transfix from bentaura:
And then you got aeon from bentaura off a paralysis cure from the malefact where you assumed asthma/anorexia:
And because your system still thought you had anorexia/asthma... well.
Malefactgem can't give anorexia, iirc, so don't bother assuming that (not sure if you're assuming it from there). Assume asthma from malefactgem only if you are under aeon. Use diagnose to properly find unknown affs instead of having your system assume everything - too dangerous with aeon. I can't find a single diagnose in this log, Wobou, tsk tsk. Institutes have two passive hidden afflictions and one active hidden affliction. Not diagnosing is... not a good idea. Granted, your system does handle them well most of the time, but lean on that too much and you get screwed as in the case above.
Anyway, back to the triple aurawarp. It looks like the afflicted doesn't get a message when they get aurawarp, only when they smoke steam and it cures it, so I can't tell what is giving aurawarp from Wobou's log, unfortunately.
Only the last one is from bentaura (you see Wobou sipping, and it giving aurawarp at the same time, pushing it to massive). The first one was with a sapphire crystal tick, and the second one was with nothing - just happens in between prompts. From Wobou's side, nothing is seen, all three were silent:
The sapphire ticked, no message. No message until the lucidity sip, which triggered bentaura (which gave him tempinsanity) and still no aurawarp message. This also implies that the flay affliction is entirely silent. I'm not sure how I feel about this, Verioth did say some of the information is being withheld on purpose, but entirely silent afflicting? Not even an "unknown affliction" aff message? I'm not sure if I like that.
Of course, then again, I might be wrong, and flay afflicting might actually have a message. But, if it does, then this means there are two unaccounted for aurawarp ticks from the triple aurawarp here. Which would be ??
You probably need to work on optimising your flay casts a little - flaying without an affliction on the target wastes the power, if I'm reading the AB files right, and you did so a number of times. But once you have it down more efficiently, I'm guessing it would give you a lot of affliction pressure and aurawarp mileage. The wide range of institute affs makes it harder to flay a specific aff type to capitalize on it, but I'm guessing classes with more focused affs to cast can use targeted flays to build strong pressure quickly. I guess that sort of validates your feeling that aurawarp curing needs to be a little faster, maybe. Can't say for sure until we have more logs, I guess.
You used a generic flay here:
But there was no affliction there to flay, right? Sickly red light, resonance, bent aura is incurable. Insomnia/unable to be masochistic is not an aff. So is flay going off warped aura or bleeding? If so, what aff type would it fall under? Sanguine?
I'm not sure if that's desirable. Bleeding is very easily given, and using that to catapult into one of the sanguine affs almost makes the "target must have an aff" limitation of flay pointless. It is significantly difficult to catch someone with an uncured aff when you recover balance, but catching someone with bleeding? That's very easy.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
Plus the fact that the last flay you did before that burst of aurawarp ticks was at 14:01:11:683683, and the burst happened at 14:01:23 onwards, that means it's even less likely to be from flay, because that'd be a 12s delay between the flaying and those aurawarp ticks. We'll probably want to find out what those aurawarp ticks are from.
I'm a super huge fan of trying to code away the need to diagnose. I feel like as a monk it gives me an edge if I can diagnose as little as possible.
Edit: Spelling is hard.
My recommendation would be to make bedevil only cure affs if you have empathy, but allow it to remain as a way to afflict the target with two afflictions that you have (because it's a really interesting mechanic).
It looks like a really awesome skillset by the way. Healing was always going to be really hard to balance, but with the huge mana costs for self-heal and the empathy mechanics, I think the @admin have managed to at least get the framework right to make it a useful, interesting, and tempting tertiary. Way to go whoever designed it!
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/cLfpF-KN
Discord: Rey#1460
Discord: Rey#1460
I'm thinking we could probably remove vessels and the tempinsan/timewarp/aurawarp afflictions from the bedevil pool, so it'll not be able to transfer those, if we want an easy fix. If the admin are willing to go to the trouble of having it count and remove only one instance of those per bedevil affliction, that can work as well.
War is gonna be a "fun" seal, if the former remains as is.
Discord: Rey#1460
I am curious as to how it interacts with Auric's as well? Can someone give that a little test?
I mean right now it's offensively very powerful even with just sipping poisons and throwing them out.
Overall bedevil seems very powerful as a defensive tool as well. I'm not sure it should be so spammable. I kind of like Ciarans rough idea of linking it into empathy so that if you spam it too much eventually it'll cost way to much to use or perhaps even increase its balance use so if you keep using it the balance gets too long to be effective.
Discord: Rey#1460
Constructively, what other balancing measures for bedevil can we think of? I personally really like the idea of giving your affs to the target, but if it cures you of those affs, it makes you basically invincible 1v1.
Either you can give bedevil a power cost, a cooldown timer, or change how it works. I'm in favor of nerfing the curing, but keeping it offensively strong, but I'm biased.
Thoughts?