Communes: Basic Prime quest (pixies, shadows) Fae influencing Ethereal essence mobs that spawn from fae influencing Totems
* I didn't include the power generated from bashing Nexus world, because in some cases (Gaudiguch, Hallifax), that's tied up with the Cosmic mob power generation
Again, barring the basic Prime quests, all city-specific power generation can possibly be stolen. In fact, with Elemental essence, it's almost a given, because Elemental planes aren't protected by all cities at once, unlike Faethorn which Glomdoring and Serenwilde both protect (this is why it's far, far rarer to see city people influencing fae).
You are losing a method of power generation that is not, in any form, matched by cities. Totems are being made to be as defendable as statues. That's more than a fair trade-off.
If people are talking purely about power gen then Well really the only power generation options that are unique to cities/communes are totems and cosmic influence.
From a mechanical game play point everyone has access to hunt but not influence cosmic planes, the fae and the elemental planes. Plus each org has their own little gathering quests.
Now you can argue rightly so that it's harder to hunt/gather some areas mechanically and rp wise. Some areas are harder to get to and Cities have cut communes off from elemental gathering in the past and communes have restricted fae gathering etc.
If you put in respawing shadow beasts some what equivalent to the elemental planes and took out the totems and did nothing else then cities would have a power advantage mechanically so speaking in terms of power generation. They would also have the negative of losing power to raids and such.
If you left shadow beasts as they are and put in fae gathering as the power generation then cities would mechanically speaking have a large power generation advantage over communes.
@Anaklusmos You need to remove totems from communes, for the purposes of this discussion they're irrelevant.
You need to note that ethereal essence afaik is less available to elemental.
You didn't note that fae influencing is directly available to cities, and apparently their ability to do so is a balance point due to prior discussion. I would also point out that it is only the current alliance set up that allows the communes to get this protection, if an alliance is formed that does not include either forest (this is a possibility, there was a period where the forests were allied against the cities) then you can expect the fae to be harvested.
You also didn't note that even if you consider fae a commune only resources, the total gain from fae is lower than the total gain from cosmic because it's split between two orgs and cosmic isn't.
Nexus world generation is meant to be factored into your other organisation specific generation methods for Halli at least.
You have tried yet again to, sneakily, equate raiding a cosmic plane to fae influencing.
You've noted people taking elemental essence, but failed to note that this is already equivalent between orgs. Afaik, Hallifax and Celest are free to bash the ethereal critters. The point of differentiation is just that it's work to make them spawn and because the ethereal planes are our cosmic and elemental, it's less simple for enemies to take it.
I would expect it is far rarer for people to bash cosmic planes for essence than it is for city people to be influencing the fae.
Serenwilde is actually losing 2940 power a day looking at our power logs, the forests understand this is huge, that's why it's being removed. There's actually other negative things about the way things currently work, for example any addition to the prime forest area increases our passive regen. Like the cairns addition added 11 new totems, the two homesteads added like 6 between them and could add more if they continue expanding.
Again, the only options that you will accept is the option to make the forest sections of ethereal direct equivalents of the elemental planes (which will encourage people from the cities to come gather essence from it), while you argue that such is directly against fundamental design aspects of the game.
So ultimately, you are just providing examples of the hypocrisy of the "we're not meant to be equal" argument as it is being presented. It is used in this argument when the possibility of communes getting compensation for the loss of passive power generation that doesn't benefit the cities. It's ignored in this argument when being equal will offer a potential direct benefit to the cities. It is additionally used to tell communes that they should be happy with worse versions of what cities have, because communes being lesser than cities is considered balanced.
If people are talking purely about power gen then Well really the only power generation options that are unique to cities/communes are totems and cosmic influence.
From a mechanical game play point everyone has access to hunt but not influence cosmic planes, the fae and the elemental planes. Plus each org has their own little gathering quests.
Now you can argue rightly so that it's harder to hunt/gather some areas mechanically and rp wise. Some areas are harder to get to and Cities have cut communes off from elemental gathering in the past and communes have restricted fae gathering etc.
If you put in respawing shadow beasts some what equivalent to the elemental planes and took out the totems and did nothing else then cities would have a power advantage mechanically so speaking in terms of power generation. They would also have the negative of losing power to raids and such.
If you left shadow beasts as they are and put in fae gathering as the power generation then cities would mechanically speaking have a large power generation advantage over communes.
Again, the reason I suggest a bonus for following the tah'vrai is that it is a mechanic that supports the rp (afaik, there's no bonus or malus for ignoring it) without making more power readily available to the cities. If we accept that the cities aren't really going to ever gather fae, then this makes no difference to them.
If they were to gather fae, it also allows for a mechanical difference in that if you're going to raid a cosmic plane you'll probably get a lot more power, but it's far more difficult to raid a cosmic plane than it is to sneak in and gather some fae. Sure the forests won't like it, but unless you get caught or your city tells on you it won't matter. If there is a legit concern about stealing power etc, you could always just add the ability to get essence from killing the daughters and ladies (if they don't already? no one has mentioned it).
Oh just a little note on the defensive aspect, you just reminded me of it there Saran comparing etherseren/glom to cosmic and elemental. It's not a great comparison.
There's a really old post from Estara about it. At work atm so I can't find it now but the jist of it was cities get a super defensive locked down city which is designed to be super hard to raid to discourage raiding it and then they have cosmic and elemental planes to defend which were designed to be the targets of raids. In comparison communes had ether which was some what the equivalent of elemental but then they also had prime which was deliberately harder to defend than cities so that communes had two targets to be raided.
It didnt really work out in practice because no one wanted to raid prime, no conglut etc It doesn't look like it was ever really balanced right but the concept was there.
But well there is an argument somewhere for having the prime communes defences being weaker than the cities. I'm honestly not sure if this argument stands up anymore but well you just reminded me there.
Ethereal used to be a fortress because the archways were located at the nexus. Now that they're moved, Ethereal is no longer a fortress and is in some ways more vulnerable than elemental (because you can't distort the archways.)
(clan): Falmiis says, "Aramelise, verb, 1. adorn with many flowers."
@Veyils yeah, though the issue I take with that is that the one-sided griefy mechanics that communes put up with are the ones that are on prime. Personally, I'd rather see the Seren and Glom sections of ethereal expanded to serve both purposes.
I.e When you go through the archways you'd end up in an "outer" section, this would be where the critters are and, cause they're animals, I kinda imagine the aspects just wandering around here out in the open, design wise they'd be more directly a reflection of the physical forests. Then you'd move into the "heart" which is where the dock would be and pretty much would just be what there is now. They'd be treated separately for nexus power purposes and there might be more than one path into and out of the heart to make them similar to Celestia and Nil. Unfortunately, unlikely because it's effectively the same as the elemental/cosmic relationship, but it would allow us to address other issues.
In particular, if the off-prime stuff is made equitable then, given the apparent desire for some kind of prime attack mechanics, perhaps some decent prime conflict mechanics could actually be developed there. Making the prime defences equitable would mean the attacks and defending against them would need to have different considerations sadly the ideal that each org has unique aspects in such a system would probably be too much work. But like, that's going into thoughts on the direction of pvp game wide >_>
Reason for why this is necessary, though-- with no Glomfolk around (Dylara had just logged off, Lysistrata not on, nobody says anything on any clans except Steingrim and Lavinya on Crux):
Falmiis has been exsanguinated by Glumki Thorneye. You see the death occur at a rain of leaves. 12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>-
* A couple of clans and a newbie tell later, but not long enough for any day changes*
(Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down An enormous ravenwood tree before its time!" 12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>- (Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!" 12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>- (Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!" 12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>- (Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!" 12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>- (Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!" 12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>- (Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!" 12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>- (Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!"
I'm personally not opposed at all, and very interested indeed, in changing fae mechanics, making things more dynamic between Serenwilde/Glom fae gathering, and at least ensuring that Communes don't get shafted by a huge margin in terms of active power avenues - I am a player in a commune. I'd most certainly want to ensure I don't shoot myself, and my competitiveness, in the foot.
However, I'm not really keen on adding complex new mechanics to fae gathering via this report. The more convoluted it seems (whether or not it actually is convoluted), the more likely the admin are to reject it or go for solution 2, which is a hedge bet just in case, but a sub-optimal solution in almost every way to solution 1.
If adding randomised tah'vrai allegiances to fae that spawn in faethorn will make things more exciting, more fun and more dynamic, great. However, if the result is going to be more or less the same power provided as currently, then I'd rather leave it for a different report. The ROI for the effort that will be needed to convince the admin the extra code effort needed is too cost-ineffective - it'll just risk the chance of approval.
Locking cities out from gathering fae is likely not going to pass muster with the admin as well, regardless of the reasoning behind it. Getting Estarra to agree to consider a new report (with the caveat of no direct equivalence solutions) on a mechanic as griefy as tree chopping was hard enough.
A suggestion to improve fae power output by a flat amount (+1? +3? +??) would likely be more amenable to the admin - though it'd be great to think alittle about why, and give them more reason to agree to it. Between removing passive power as well as the stinky fae quest, I certainly do think there's a valid argument to be made about adding power to the fae. Alternatively, we could just concentrate on the number of essence creatures to add to the ethereal forests instead, and leave the fae alone. That's a simple enough solution as well.
I'll also repeat again here that I'm not interested to sit down and count, one by one, the power available to each org, equate this with that and that with this, and equalize it. My solution asks for respawning essence producing mobs in the two ethereal forests. I most certainly feel this, at least, is needed, which is why I added it in. I'm also seriously considering the suggestions of adding more naturally respawning essence creatures in the ethereal forests, as illustrated by my statements in the previous paragraph. I most certainly am arguing, therefore, that communes should get an increase in power source that is active. If you want to dispute that, go ahead. I'll weigh that against my own arguments as well.
I'm suggesting to make ethereal essence creatures respawn and pretty much eliminate the burden of replanting without removing the ability to chop trees - in return, to remove the passive power generation. Is that enough, or do you think we should add more creatures as well? If so, why, and how many more to add would make the final solution reasonably balanced? Alternatively, is it too much? If so, why, and what should be removed or toned down from the solution, if it is too much?
Hard numbers will be most helpful. Iosai hasn't replied my message yet regarding how many essence creatures there currently are - I'm sure he'll get down to it when he has the time. There is a little more than a week before I won't be able to change the solutions, and around 3 weeks before comments will not be allowed on the report. So the more time you spend talking, the more possible changes to the report we can draft and add.
Reason for why this is necessary, though-- with no Glomfolk around (Dylara had just logged off, Lysistrata not on, nobody says anything on any clans except Steingrim and Lavinya on Crux):
Falmiis has been exsanguinated by Glumki Thorneye. You see the death occur at a rain of leaves. 12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>-
* A couple of clans and a newbie tell later, but not long enough for any day changes*
(Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down An enormous ravenwood tree before its time!" 12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>- (Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!" 12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>- (Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!" 12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>- (Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!" 12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>- (Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!" 12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>- (Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!" 12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>- (Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!"
Can't check specifics due to the event, but I was thinking that 2/5 of the faethorn fae would want to go to Seren, another 2/5 want to go to Glom, and 1/5 want to stay in Faethorn. (Thirds would work as well, of course, just results in less bonus)
Mathing just with the 210 estimate split in the fifths... (just dividing the total power gained) Just doubling the power gain would mean approx 168 power from gathering the correct fae, total clear would probably be 294. (84 extra power) Giving it a 1.5 boost would be like 126 with a total clear being like 252. (42 extra power)
Thirds would make this... Doubling would be 140 with 280 power for full clear (70 extra) 1.5 would be 105 with 245 power for a full clear. (35 extra)
I just can't remember if fae give differing amounts based on which type you bring back, which is where the numbers would get fiddly but my thoughts would be that this is the rough end goal. The total power output is nice, but this would be due to it being a shared mechanic between two competing organisations.
In theory, if you had two people from opposing orgs running around faethorn trying to collect fae, they would most likely be trying to get the ones with the right tah'vrai, because that's the most effective power gain, then once that's done moving on to the enemy organisation fae, before finally clearing out the faethorn fae. Similarly over two clears if one forest gets one round and the other forest gets the other round, they would get less than if each forest got their own, but they would make up for some of what they missed out on.
@karlach someone autowalking through without paying attention would then most likely pick up a combination of the three types of fae and end up with less power than if they'd paying attention, in the scenario that there are two people. Probably also end up being issued cause autowalking is against the rules.
If one person is there alone for the whole time, then sure no difference.
Regarding the fae specifics that you can't check at the moment:
Each fae gives 2p when turned in. There are a total of 27 fae, 3 of each type, of which there are 9. 3 types roam on the ground, 2 in the trees and 4 in the skies.
Power output currently is 1p if the fae is affected by stink.
Increasing fae output by a flat amount (without adding a new tah'vrai allegiance mechanic) is the simplest solution to boost the power output of this resource if such is needed. Adding your tah'vrai mechanic will, based on your numbers, boost power output based on a dynamic that encourages communes to dance around each other in a race to get fae. Which is an intriguing idea. However, I'm hesitant to put it into the report because it certainly sounds complicated - frankly speaking, I'm currently not 100% sure I have grasped your idea in full. I'll probably need to read your posts more closely when I'm not tired from a full day at work, to wrap my mind around it.
Perhaps what you can do is to describe in simpler terms how the new mechanic will work. If you can make it seem simple and straightforward enough to the admin reading this thread (and the report, if we draft it in), then there's a better chance of them agreeing to code it in.
Still a no on adding commune-specific power generation methods outside of the simple Prime ones (shadows, pixies, initiates, kinsfolk, beggars, joules).
You're perpetuating the idea that communes should get a free source of power. It's active as opposed to passive now, sure, but it's still power that cities do not get.
And regarding the power produced via cosmic mobs -- having experience in Celest, Gaudiguch, and Hallifax, I am pretty confident in telling you that, no, it is far from being a major source of city power, even discounting things like villages, domoths, and epic quests.
[Emphasis mine] Actually no.
To be clear, I and most of the other folks who are arguing for a new power source for communes aren't arguing for a power generation method that will necessarily have the same yield as totems do now. It's not about shifting all of that passive power to active power, it's about bringing the active power generation potentialroughly in line with the cities, casting aside how much cities actually bother to use those mechanics. Cosmic mobs can actually produce a pretty strong amount of power if regularly done, though the different mechanics make this a little difficult to pin down. For instance, Gaudiguch's cosmic power generation is tied to its nexus world generation, iirc and is far easier than influencing creatures.
EDIT: Further, adding essence creatures is a kind of stopgap - I do think that there is space for something more interested and complicated for forests, but it's a good solution that gets the job done in the short term. It's a more fair measure for both sides as it has a high maximum power generation if all sands are up (allowing for high returns for forestals who clear their own territory just as cities can) and a far lower generation if not (such that the new forest mechanic doesn't automatically assume sands being up).
Oh one little side point about influence vs hunting. Hunting the elemental creatures kind of requires less lesson investment than influencing does. Just as a point to make it as newbie friendly as possible.
It also makes sense to increase Seren essence creatures because of the different ways power are generated on a routine basis. I'm going to list them now, barring any special cases:
Political ------ Villages Flares Wildnodes
Misc. ------ Events Smob raids (in theory) Aetherbashing Some Honours Quests (The hand quest notably) Epic Quests Astral siphoning
Native ----- Totems Prime Power quests Nexus world quests Essence turn in Fae gathering Cosmic quests
Clearly, the focus here is on "Native" power. That list can actually be restorted into equivalent "slots", though the different parts are handled differently among some orgs. For instance, Hallifax's prime and nexus world quests are folded together and generate more power than either would alone. Gaudi's nexus world and cosmic quests are folded together (someone correct me if I'm wrong here).
So right. Forests have this entire extra power generation method that cities don't have. On the other hand, cities get a more regular and dependable source of essence (from 1-5 power each) and a lockdown on their cosmic power generation method, which the forests share between them and which are far easier to poach (even than essence, provided that cities had an interest in doing it) or otherwise devalue. Let's take the same table and wipe away totems.
Now the problem with just taking away totem power generation and doing nothing else is more evident. Sure, both sides have the same raw number of power generation methods if taken at face value, but ehhh. First, the fae method is only half a method, at best it's one split between Seren and Glom. Flowing from that difference, the amount of essence generated by the forests is ALSO split between Seren and Glom as it's generated based on the number of fae you bring in. Of course, it's also a lot easier for enemy elements to come in and out of Ethereal national territory than an elemental plane on lockdown, because of the archways.
So, the simplest proposal is to add a contingent of respawning ethereal essence creatures to the ethereal territories, leave some that spawn based on fae gathering. I'm talking 10% of them or so, nothing major. Do that and possibly add a few fae creatures and cities and communes will be roughly even, provided that Serenwilde and Glom take the fae at about the same rates on average. The increased "guaranteed" active power from essence creatures that aren't based on fae turn in will help to soften any tilt in that.
Reason for why this is necessary, though-- with no Glomfolk around (Dylara had just logged off, Lysistrata not on, nobody says anything on any clans except Steingrim and Lavinya on Crux):
Falmiis has been exsanguinated by Glumki Thorneye. You see the death occur at a rain of leaves. 12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>-
* A couple of clans and a newbie tell later, but not long enough for any day changes*
(Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down An enormous ravenwood tree before its time!" 12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>- (Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!" 12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>- (Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!" 12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>- (Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!" 12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>- (Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!" 12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>- (Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!" 12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>- (Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!"
Mmhm.
I.. jut might not log in tonight.
Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable. Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
@Lerad Wow, no idea where this 210 estimate was coming from then. But thanks.
With 27 fae, I'd stipulate that like... 11 fae are pledged to Seren, 11 to glom, and 5 want to stay.
For how it works, it's just what you've described.
The fae tav'hrai would be set at reset (sometimes it changes from memory might not already be that way though). To maximise your power gain, you need to get the fae that want to go to your forest. Others will give power, but you want yours first and foremost.
Looking at the numbers, removing stinky, then power gain from fae is 54 a clear.
So... If I grab all the fae for Serenwilde with the bonus set as double return then... I would get 44 power (10 less than a current full clear). If I get half the faethorn fae I'd get 49 (5 less than a current full clear) If I grab everything then I get 76 (22 more than current full clear)
If you add in three more fae (two ground, and a trees one maybe) then it's 12 for each commune, and 6 for faethorn. This would give 84 power on a full clear (30 extra), 48 on Seren only (-6), and would be equal with current generation if you grabed yours plus half of the faethorn fae (54 total)
I used this google sheet to fiddle with things. You can put in any number of fae, the power gain per fae, a split, and the bonus multiplication and it'll give you the numbers I'm looking at.
It's ultimately actually really low, adding three fae and making it that tah'vrai fae give you five power would only give you 42 extra power on a full clear, 6 extra on only yours, and 12 on the yours plus half faethorn.
Like, it's really a question of how much extra power people feel is right, working out the required bonus and extra fae from there is pretty simple.
I'm still not convinced of the proposal to lockdown fae power generation exclusively to forests. Up the spawn rate of the ethereal mobs, sure, but it should be possible for the cities to make use of that, as well, just like it is possible for communes to make use of elemental and cosmic power generation methods.
@Enyalida if that 180 estimate that Silvanus provided on cosmic generation is accurate, then faethorn provides less than a third of the power that a cosmic plane can generate and is then split between two organisations.
The number of regular spawns you'd need is something like thirty if you similarly increase the number of faethorn fae to thirty.
I'm still not convinced of the proposal to lockdown fae power generation exclusively to forests. Up the spawn rate of the ethereal mobs, sure, but it should be possible for the cities to make use of that, as well, just like it is possible for communes to make use of elemental and cosmic power generation methods.
I thank you for your permission to harvest the crystals on continuum without fear of an enemy status.
U, what? You should expect to be enemied for hunting cosmic mobs. Similarly, I expect to be enemied to both forests if I influence fae.
Aww, but you're arguing that you and I have equal access to your cosmic mobs, so why should you be mad? Also I look forward to the seven extra rifts between continuum and various places around astral and elemental.
Also, you're not asking for more fae, you're asking for more ethereal mobs, in the context of this conversation this means the essence spawning critters, which means you are easily able to walk into Serenwilde and hunt them without consequence.
Don't fae call out when they're being dragged to cosmic planes in the form of a yell across Ethereal? It's not as good as loyalsays obviously, but I definitely do expect to be enemied, or apprehended, or warned (if 1st time) if I'm caught influencing fae.
It's also emphatically against the terms of the treaty between Hallifax and Seren, and I suspect between Glom and any org they ally with. So anyone getting caught stealing fae is going to set off a diplomatic incident as well
It's also emphatically against the terms of the treaty between Hallifax and Seren, and I suspect between Glom and any org they ally with. So anyone getting caught stealing fae is going to set off a diplomatic incident as well
There was such an incident a few months back.
Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable. Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
Don't fae call out when they're being dragged to cosmic planes in the form of a yell across Ethereal? It's not as good as loyalsays obviously, but I definitely do expect to be enemied, or apprehended, or warned (if 1st time) if I'm caught influencing fae.
If it works the way you say then it's only effective if you're literally on ethereal when it happens. If it's a yell then it should only work in the faethorn area so you'd probably need to actually be in there. I've only actually seen the fae react to says including mentions of the cosmic planes, not any yelling about people actually influencing so they might not?
Which then does mean that it comes down to you actually being caught. The main issue seems like the power logs in your city, which I'd expect most cities would not mention to a forest to prevent the mentioned diplomatic incident.
Again, I see literally no issue with mechanics that favour communes in relation to gathering fae from faethorn because, given treaties, the only way this is ever going to come up is if some alliance manages to end up not incorporating a forest. Also, if you can kill fae for essence then it's mechanically better for cities to kill the fae given sands in that situation, depending on how the morality works out.
EDIT: Just found some old quotes that show them only reacting with a say, similar to what happens when one of the communes does the influence.
U, what? You should expect to be enemied for hunting cosmic mobs. Similarly, I expect to be enemied to both forests if I influence fae.
Aww, but you're arguing that you and I have equal access to your cosmic mobs, so why should you be mad? Also I look forward to the seven extra rifts between continuum and various places around astral and elemental.
Also, you're not asking for more fae, you're asking for more ethereal mobs, in the context of this conversation this means the essence spawning critters, which means you are easily able to walk into Serenwilde and hunt them without consequence.
Help I'm trapped in the quote box.I will never like these forums
I'm asking for access, period. You have access to cosmic. We have access to fae. Bam. Simple as that. Restricting fae while still allowing cosmic to be bashed is stupid.
And yes i am asking for essence mobs, so that I can bash them just as you are able to bash elemental.
Comments
Cities:
Basic Prime quest (kinsfolk, beggars, initiates, joules)
Elemental essence mobs
Cosmic mobs
Communes:
Basic Prime quest (pixies, shadows)
Fae influencing
Ethereal essence mobs that spawn from fae influencing
Totems
* I didn't include the power generated from bashing Nexus world, because in some cases (Gaudiguch, Hallifax), that's tied up with the Cosmic mob power generation
Again, barring the basic Prime quests, all city-specific power generation can possibly be stolen. In fact, with Elemental essence, it's almost a given, because Elemental planes aren't protected by all cities at once, unlike Faethorn which Glomdoring and Serenwilde both protect (this is why it's far, far rarer to see city people influencing fae).
You are losing a method of power generation that is not, in any form, matched by cities. Totems are being made to be as defendable as statues. That's more than a fair trade-off.
Accountability is necessary.
From a mechanical game play point everyone has access to hunt but not influence cosmic planes, the fae and the elemental planes. Plus each org has their own little gathering quests.
Now you can argue rightly so that it's harder to hunt/gather some areas mechanically and rp wise. Some areas are harder to get to and Cities have cut communes off from elemental gathering in the past and communes have restricted fae gathering etc.
If you put in respawing shadow beasts some what equivalent to the elemental planes and took out the totems and did nothing else then cities would have a power advantage mechanically so speaking in terms of power generation. They would also have the negative of losing power to raids and such.
If you left shadow beasts as they are and put in fae gathering as the power generation then cities would mechanically speaking have a large power generation advantage over communes.
You need to remove totems from communes, for the purposes of this discussion they're irrelevant.
You need to note that ethereal essence afaik is less available to elemental.
You didn't note that fae influencing is directly available to cities, and apparently their ability to do so is a balance point due to prior discussion. I would also point out that it is only the current alliance set up that allows the communes to get this protection, if an alliance is formed that does not include either forest (this is a possibility, there was a period where the forests were allied against the cities) then you can expect the fae to be harvested.
You also didn't note that even if you consider fae a commune only resources, the total gain from fae is lower than the total gain from cosmic because it's split between two orgs and cosmic isn't.
Nexus world generation is meant to be factored into your other organisation specific generation methods for Halli at least.
You have tried yet again to, sneakily, equate raiding a cosmic plane to fae influencing.
You've noted people taking elemental essence, but failed to note that this is already equivalent between orgs. Afaik, Hallifax and Celest are free to bash the ethereal critters. The point of differentiation is just that it's work to make them spawn and because the ethereal planes are our cosmic and elemental, it's less simple for enemies to take it.
I would expect it is far rarer for people to bash cosmic planes for essence than it is for city people to be influencing the fae.
Serenwilde is actually losing 2940 power a day looking at our power logs, the forests understand this is huge, that's why it's being removed. There's actually other negative things about the way things currently work, for example any addition to the prime forest area increases our passive regen. Like the cairns addition added 11 new totems, the two homesteads added like 6 between them and could add more if they continue expanding.
Again, the only options that you will accept is the option to make the forest sections of ethereal direct equivalents of the elemental planes (which will encourage people from the cities to come gather essence from it), while you argue that such is directly against fundamental design aspects of the game.
So ultimately, you are just providing examples of the hypocrisy of the "we're not meant to be equal" argument as it is being presented.
It is used in this argument when the possibility of communes getting compensation for the loss of passive power generation that doesn't benefit the cities.
It's ignored in this argument when being equal will offer a potential direct benefit to the cities.
It is additionally used to tell communes that they should be happy with worse versions of what cities have, because communes being lesser than cities is considered balanced.
If they were to gather fae, it also allows for a mechanical difference in that if you're going to raid a cosmic plane you'll probably get a lot more power, but it's far more difficult to raid a cosmic plane than it is to sneak in and gather some fae. Sure the forests won't like it, but unless you get caught or your city tells on you it won't matter. If there is a legit concern about stealing power etc, you could always just add the ability to get essence from killing the daughters and ladies (if they don't already? no one has mentioned it).
There's a really old post from Estara about it. At work atm so I can't find it now but the jist of it was cities get a super defensive locked down city which is designed to be super hard to raid to discourage raiding it and then they have cosmic and elemental planes to defend which were designed to be the targets of raids. In comparison communes had ether which was some what the equivalent of elemental but then they also had prime which was deliberately harder to defend than cities so that communes had two targets to be raided.
It didnt really work out in practice because no one wanted to raid prime, no conglut etc It doesn't look like it was ever really balanced right but the concept was there.
But well there is an argument somewhere for having the prime communes defences being weaker than the cities. I'm honestly not sure if this argument stands up anymore but well you just reminded me there.
I.e When you go through the archways you'd end up in an "outer" section, this would be where the critters are and, cause they're animals, I kinda imagine the aspects just wandering around here out in the open, design wise they'd be more directly a reflection of the physical forests. Then you'd move into the "heart" which is where the dock would be and pretty much would just be what there is now. They'd be treated separately for nexus power purposes and there might be more than one path into and out of the heart to make them similar to Celestia and Nil. Unfortunately, unlikely because it's effectively the same as the elemental/cosmic relationship, but it would allow us to address other issues.
In particular, if the off-prime stuff is made equitable then, given the apparent desire for some kind of prime attack mechanics, perhaps some decent prime conflict mechanics could actually be developed there. Making the prime defences equitable would mean the attacks and defending against them would need to have different considerations sadly the ideal that each org has unique aspects in such a system would probably be too much work.
But like, that's going into thoughts on the direction of pvp game wide >_>
Falmiis has been exsanguinated by Glumki Thorneye.
You see the death occur at a rain of leaves.
12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>-
* A couple of clans and a newbie tell later, but not long enough for any day changes*
(Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down An enormous ravenwood tree before its time!"
12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>-
(Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!"
12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>-
(Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!"
12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>-
(Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!"
12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>-
(Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!"
12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>-
(Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!"
12420h, 9390m, 9390e, 10p, 26660en, 26660w mBelrxk<>-
(Glomdoring): Brennan says, "May Crow curse those who cut down A mature ravenwood tree before its time!"
Mmhm.
However, I'm not really keen on adding complex new mechanics to fae gathering via this report. The more convoluted it seems (whether or not it actually is convoluted), the more likely the admin are to reject it or go for solution 2, which is a hedge bet just in case, but a sub-optimal solution in almost every way to solution 1.
If adding randomised tah'vrai allegiances to fae that spawn in faethorn will make things more exciting, more fun and more dynamic, great. However, if the result is going to be more or less the same power provided as currently, then I'd rather leave it for a different report. The ROI for the effort that will be needed to convince the admin the extra code effort needed is too cost-ineffective - it'll just risk the chance of approval.
Locking cities out from gathering fae is likely not going to pass muster with the admin as well, regardless of the reasoning behind it. Getting Estarra to agree to consider a new report (with the caveat of no direct equivalence solutions) on a mechanic as griefy as tree chopping was hard enough.
A suggestion to improve fae power output by a flat amount (+1? +3? +??) would likely be more amenable to the admin - though it'd be great to think alittle about why, and give them more reason to agree to it. Between removing passive power as well as the stinky fae quest, I certainly do think there's a valid argument to be made about adding power to the fae. Alternatively, we could just concentrate on the number of essence creatures to add to the ethereal forests instead, and leave the fae alone. That's a simple enough solution as well.
I'll also repeat again here that I'm not interested to sit down and count, one by one, the power available to each org, equate this with that and that with this, and equalize it. My solution asks for respawning essence producing mobs in the two ethereal forests. I most certainly feel this, at least, is needed, which is why I added it in. I'm also seriously considering the suggestions of adding more naturally respawning essence creatures in the ethereal forests, as illustrated by my statements in the previous paragraph. I most certainly am arguing, therefore, that communes should get an increase in power source that is active. If you want to dispute that, go ahead. I'll weigh that against my own arguments as well.
I'm suggesting to make ethereal essence creatures respawn and pretty much eliminate the burden of replanting without removing the ability to chop trees - in return, to remove the passive power generation. Is that enough, or do you think we should add more creatures as well? If so, why, and how many more to add would make the final solution reasonably balanced? Alternatively, is it too much? If so, why, and what should be removed or toned down from the solution, if it is too much?
Hard numbers will be most helpful. Iosai hasn't replied my message yet regarding how many essence creatures there currently are - I'm sure he'll get down to it when he has the time. There is a little more than a week before I won't be able to change the solutions, and around 3 weeks before comments will not be allowed on the report. So the more time you spend talking, the more possible changes to the report we can draft and add.
Mathing just with the 210 estimate split in the fifths... (just dividing the total power gained)
Just doubling the power gain would mean approx 168 power from gathering the correct fae, total clear would probably be 294. (84 extra power)
Giving it a 1.5 boost would be like 126 with a total clear being like 252. (42 extra power)
Thirds would make this...
Doubling would be 140 with 280 power for full clear (70 extra)
1.5 would be 105 with 245 power for a full clear. (35 extra)
I just can't remember if fae give differing amounts based on which type you bring back, which is where the numbers would get fiddly but my thoughts would be that this is the rough end goal. The total power output is nice, but this would be due to it being a shared mechanic between two competing organisations.
In theory, if you had two people from opposing orgs running around faethorn trying to collect fae, they would most likely be trying to get the ones with the right tah'vrai, because that's the most effective power gain, then once that's done moving on to the enemy organisation fae, before finally clearing out the faethorn fae.
Similarly over two clears if one forest gets one round and the other forest gets the other round, they would get less than if each forest got their own, but they would make up for some of what they missed out on.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
If one person is there alone for the whole time, then sure no difference.
Each fae gives 2p when turned in. There are a total of 27 fae, 3 of each type, of which there are 9. 3 types roam on the ground, 2 in the trees and 4 in the skies.
Power output currently is 1p if the fae is affected by stink.
Increasing fae output by a flat amount (without adding a new tah'vrai allegiance mechanic) is the simplest solution to boost the power output of this resource if such is needed. Adding your tah'vrai mechanic will, based on your numbers, boost power output based on a dynamic that encourages communes to dance around each other in a race to get fae. Which is an intriguing idea. However, I'm hesitant to put it into the report because it certainly sounds complicated - frankly speaking, I'm currently not 100% sure I have grasped your idea in full. I'll probably need to read your posts more closely when I'm not tired from a full day at work, to wrap my mind around it.
Perhaps what you can do is to describe in simpler terms how the new mechanic will work. If you can make it seem simple and straightforward enough to the admin reading this thread (and the report, if we draft it in), then there's a better chance of them agreeing to code it in.
[Emphasis mine] Actually no.
To be clear, I and most of the other folks who are arguing for a new power source for communes aren't arguing for a power generation method that will necessarily have the same yield as totems do now. It's not about shifting all of that passive power to active power, it's about bringing the active power generation potential roughly in line with the cities, casting aside how much cities actually bother to use those mechanics. Cosmic mobs can actually produce a pretty strong amount of power if regularly done, though the different mechanics make this a little difficult to pin down. For instance, Gaudiguch's cosmic power generation is tied to its nexus world generation, iirc and is far easier than influencing creatures.
EDIT: Further, adding essence creatures is a kind of stopgap - I do think that there is space for something more interested and complicated for forests, but it's a good solution that gets the job done in the short term. It's a more fair measure for both sides as it has a high maximum power generation if all sands are up (allowing for high returns for forestals who clear their own territory just as cities can) and a far lower generation if not (such that the new forest mechanic doesn't automatically assume sands being up).
Political
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Villages
Flares
Wildnodes
Misc.
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Events
Smob raids (in theory)
Aetherbashing
Some Honours Quests (The hand quest notably)
Epic Quests
Astral siphoning
Native
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Totems
Prime Power quests
Nexus world quests
Essence turn in
Fae gathering
Cosmic quests
Clearly, the focus here is on "Native" power. That list can actually be restorted into equivalent "slots", though the different parts are handled differently among some orgs. For instance, Hallifax's prime and nexus world quests are folded together and generate more power than either would alone. Gaudi's nexus world and cosmic quests are folded together (someone correct me if I'm wrong here).
So right. Forests have this entire extra power generation method that cities don't have. On the other hand, cities get a more regular and dependable source of essence (from 1-5 power each) and a lockdown on their cosmic power generation method, which the forests share between them and which are far easier to poach (even than essence, provided that cities had an interest in doing it) or otherwise devalue. Let's take the same table and wipe away totems.
Now the problem with just taking away totem power generation and doing nothing else is more evident. Sure, both sides have the same raw number of power generation methods if taken at face value, but ehhh. First, the fae method is only half a method, at best it's one split between Seren and Glom. Flowing from that difference, the amount of essence generated by the forests is ALSO split between Seren and Glom as it's generated based on the number of fae you bring in. Of course, it's also a lot easier for enemy elements to come in and out of Ethereal national territory than an elemental plane on lockdown, because of the archways.
So, the simplest proposal is to add a contingent of respawning ethereal essence creatures to the ethereal territories, leave some that spawn based on fae gathering. I'm talking 10% of them or so, nothing major. Do that and possibly add a few fae creatures and cities and communes will be roughly even, provided that Serenwilde and Glom take the fae at about the same rates on average. The increased "guaranteed" active power from essence creatures that aren't based on fae turn in will help to soften any tilt in that.
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
With 27 fae, I'd stipulate that like... 11 fae are pledged to Seren, 11 to glom, and 5 want to stay.
For how it works, it's just what you've described.
The fae tav'hrai would be set at reset (sometimes it changes from memory might not already be that way though). To maximise your power gain, you need to get the fae that want to go to your forest. Others will give power, but you want yours first and foremost.
Looking at the numbers, removing stinky, then power gain from fae is 54 a clear.
So...
If I grab all the fae for Serenwilde with the bonus set as double return then... I would get 44 power (10 less than a current full clear).
If I get half the faethorn fae I'd get 49 (5 less than a current full clear)
If I grab everything then I get 76 (22 more than current full clear)
If you add in three more fae (two ground, and a trees one maybe) then it's 12 for each commune, and 6 for faethorn.
This would give 84 power on a full clear (30 extra), 48 on Seren only (-6), and would be equal with current generation if you grabed yours plus half of the faethorn fae (54 total)
I used this google sheet to fiddle with things. You can put in any number of fae, the power gain per fae, a split, and the bonus multiplication and it'll give you the numbers I'm looking at.
It's ultimately actually really low, adding three fae and making it that tah'vrai fae give you five power would only give you 42 extra power on a full clear, 6 extra on only yours, and 12 on the yours plus half faethorn.
Like, it's really a question of how much extra power people feel is right, working out the required bonus and extra fae from there is pretty simple.
Accountability is necessary.
The number of regular spawns you'd need is something like thirty if you similarly increase the number of faethorn fae to thirty.
Accountability is necessary.
Also, you're not asking for more fae, you're asking for more ethereal mobs, in the context of this conversation this means the essence spawning critters, which means you are easily able to walk into Serenwilde and hunt them without consequence.
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
Which then does mean that it comes down to you actually being caught. The main issue seems like the power logs in your city, which I'd expect most cities would not mention to a forest to prevent the mentioned diplomatic incident.
Again, I see literally no issue with mechanics that favour communes in relation to gathering fae from faethorn because, given treaties, the only way this is ever going to come up is if some alliance manages to end up not incorporating a forest. Also, if you can kill fae for essence then it's mechanically better for cities to kill the fae given sands in that situation, depending on how the morality works out.
EDIT: Just found some old quotes that show them only reacting with a say, similar to what happens when one of the communes does the influence.
Accountability is necessary.