Yeah ok. How about you go read report 1374? Or go back to the tweets thread for quotes like Karlach's "And we've constantly said (and envoyed) that we don't give a damn about the power generation."
Ah damn, if only I'd clarified this to put context to what I said.
I love how us going from "we don't care enough that totems generate a ton of passive power that it is more important to us than getting rid of this terrible mechanic" translates to "we don't care about power, period."
You've had this explained to you on Discord as well, and still you constantly go back to that quote knowing full well you use it out of context.
So yeah, calling you a troll is pretty fair game.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Yeah ok. How about you go read report 1374? Or go back to the tweets thread for quotes like Karlach's "And we've constantly said (and envoyed) that we don't give a damn about the power generation."
Ah damn, if only I'd clarified this to put context to what I said.
I love how us going from "we don't care enough that totems generate a ton of passive power that it is more important to us than getting rid of this terrible mechanic" translates to "we don't care about power, period."
You've had this explained to you on Discord as well, and still you constantly go back to that quote knowing full well you use it out of context.
So yeah, calling you a troll is pretty fair game.
And I've explained this to you too. My first post in this thread:
"See, the communes would have you believe that they don't care about the power generation at all, but when removing it actually brought to the table there is suddenly a caveat to it. So which is it? Does the power generation matter or not?"
Where in that did I say that you guys are claiming that you don't care about power at all? This has always been about the power generation.
We don't care about the power generation of that one specific mechanic that it gives us so much passively, that it is the reward for that mechanic, to want to keep that mechanic. We would rather see that mechanic gone.
That doesn't mean "remove it and do absolutely nothing else" Wanting different mechanics instead isn't suddenly an about turn on our stance with regard to power generation from totems.
Not caring about the power generation from totems enough to want to keep them doesn't mean we don't care about ways to generate power. You know this and still you harp on as if we ever meant otherwise.
That's trolling, and you know full well.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I was just providing accurate numbers for framing since the numbers have been thrown around for power generation of trees passively. It doesn't matter, the numbers do not matter, but if they are going to be thrown around, they should at least be accurate.
Get rid of power generation and make totems like statues, provide a separate version of choppable trees that generate essence when cut down to let the turds get what they want, I do not care.
The upkeep is what sucks and has driven people away; why argue against it when every positive of the tree it is willing to be given away?
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
Not caring about the power generation from totems enough to want to keep them doesn't mean we don't care about ways to generate power. You know this and still you harp on as if we ever meant otherwise.
That's trolling, and you know full well.
He's has had this explained to him before, he's just trying to get a rise out of you. It's professional level trolling
Maybe you should read my comment in the first report posted in this thread?
I said that my preferred solution is to remove the chopping/power generation from totems as a mechanic - the argument in tweets was always that the communes were happy to get rid of the power generation if it meant they didn't have to deal with the chopping (and I guess upkeep, which I'm also ok with making easier). I also even offered a compromise in case that wasn't palatable.
If you really believe that way, I think a temporary solution can at least be proposed and agreed upon until a better solution can be proposed. Report 1578 is fairly terrible in my opinion and not the best band aid nor the full solution.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
The best solution would be to revisit report 1374. The furies decision on that report seems to hinge around Ironbark as a potential solution. Even with several revisions to Ironbark, it's pretty clear it's not a solution so - as mentioned in that solution text - the issue should be revisited including the 1374 solutions, which are superior to any presented here.
Speaking of parity: Wanna compare how much power the forests have passively generated since the game started and how much cities have actively gathered in their 'unique' methods?
EDIT: You can flag this as spam but you can't make the argument for parity without addressing the disparity in the history of the mechanics.
Sure, let's return all the power passively generated in the past. Let's also call up all those old city members who have cut an elder tree before, or condoned such an action before, and sentence them to however many hours of frustration-punishment. Perhaps what we could do is to invent a device to insert electrons which cause them distress into these individuals' brains because, you know, we can't talk about parity unless we take all the ineuqalities in the past into consideration. We can't give communes respawning mobs, and think about how to make things acceptably fair between communes and cities going forward, without looking back at all the frustration caused in the past too. Nope, let's obstruct constructive conversation about coming to a consensus. Let's ignore the post that says we're not looking for equivalence.
Does the above paragraph sound idiotic and anal? Yeah, that's what you sound like, Yarith.
Oh man if we're going to get into the nuances and specifics of each and every power quest available to each org we're all in for a bad time.
Look just give both communes 50 respawning essence mobs. I'll just bash them all for more power for myself.
50 essence creatures so you can bash them all? Sure. I'll put that in if there's support for it. Or we can not add any essence creatures, and go ahead with what's stated in the solutions, if there's support for that. I don't fucking care. The report aims to achieve a level of acceptable balance for the goal - reducing the replanting frustration. I don't fucking care about how sore you feel about power, whether it be the passive power accrued over the years, or the continued imbalance in active power that will stay because the admin have rejected equivalent statue/totem mechanics. I don't care about the power. Anything to get one of the solutions passed. I will try to be fair, and continue to try to be fair, and take suggestions and consider other perspectives, but I. DON'T. CARE.
Speaking of parity: Wanna compare how much power the forests have passively generated since the game started and how much cities have actively gathered in their 'unique' methods?
EDIT: You can flag this as spam but you can't make the argument for parity without addressing the disparity in the history of the mechanics.
So. How about removing that power generation now. That's an argument for removing the power generation, it's good that we're building some consensus here.
Remember in the other thread where I pointed out that two kinds of people should theoretically like the mechanics as they stand right this minute? One of those kinds is a player in Serenwilde, who right now is benefiting from the existing mechanics. The other is the kind of player who loves to chop totems to frustrate other players. Some of the posters in this thread are the first kind. Some are the second.
A post about tree chopping. This is something me and my axe need to respond too.
IMO I don't think a case has been made in the first place for any change. Just because chopping trees is annoying (which I found out actually is when I moved to Glom), does not justify a change. If an argument could be mounted that tree unfairly disadvantage an org because they can be destroyed so easily then I guess that is reasonable.
Trees and caring for them is at the heart of the forest RP. To me it doesn't make sense to remove this element of the game just because...
06/30/2014 19:37 Silvanus channels the power of the Megalith of Doom for you, stripping you of your Vernal Ascendant status.......bastard!!
A post about tree chopping. This is something me and my axe need to respond too.
IMO I don't think a case has been made in the first place for any change. Just because chopping trees is annoying (which I found out actually is when I moved to Glom), does not justify a change. If an argument could be mounted that tree unfairly disadvantage an org because they can be destroyed so easily then I guess that is reasonable.
Trees and caring for them is at the heart of the forest RP. To me it doesn't make sense to remove this element of the game just because...
You are invited to read the problem statements of the reports presented, as well as reports #1374 and #1575 with totem chopping subbed in for fire/vines in that last one.
The actual mechanical act of walking around the forest pressing a totemcarve alias isn't great or interesting. There are surely ways to work tending to nature into the game mechanically that isn't so imminently griefy and boring.
If you wanted a pet but didn't have enough time to care for it, you would get a cat.
What if that cat turned out to actually be a dog? That's what taking care of trees are. This is a game, you want an animal that you can ignore because it has made a bed out of your coats that they pulled down in your closet, not one that requires constant upkeep just to keep it alive.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
@Leolamins, the report allows you to continue cutting trees. It keeps intact every facet of protecting the trees rp which is central to communes. It allows this while removing the frustration associated with it. Replanting is annoying, but not ONLY annoying. It ruins gameplay. Has ruined gameplay. Has jeapordized the continued existence of that RP you are trying to defend. Multiple people have called for this RP to be abandoned because of this frustration, and have advocated for it precisely because of this mechanic. I have refused to agree to that suggestion, and have argued against it, and this report reflects that. All my solutions protect the parts you reject a change to, and proposes changes that makes that sustainable.
I think that those reports are fine. I got the vibe that forests don't mind abolishing their passive power generation in return for more native (i.e. in their prime forest or ethereal forest), active powergen (and the removal of chopping mechanics). Even if it means adding 20 ethereal beasts in each ethereal forest that repop on their own, it'll be much more palatable and not as prevalent as city essence.
I don't even think you need to go as far as adding in the active powergen. Just remove the upkeep, remove the power regeneration, and we can go from there.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
1580 is made with the explicit intention to do nothing about the defense discrepancy of statues versus totems. An attempt to do so in 1374 was rejected - whether it was the primary reason for rejecting or not, I chose to refrain from providing the same solution. In return, I took the opportunity to ask for entirely passive replanting - without the need for statue upkeep, there's no need for statue defense.
I did toy with the idea of trying to achieve statue/totem defense parity when drafting, but ultimately decided to discard that aspect to focus on replanting.
Regarding active power generation, solution 1 certainly does put communes at a distinct disadvantage, and lacking parity, for active power generation as compared to cities (on top of the other differences I elected not to touch, of course), and I'm amenable to adding more essence creating creatures - within whatever limit people discuss and agree upon. Naturally, I will change the solutions as discussion and suggestions pop up. If there is no agreement within the timeframe until the report has to be finalised (23 days from now) then I'd rather push through the change and tackle it at a later date.
I'm not going to pursue equivalence, because that will be doomed to failure. Verbatim from Estarra:
Communes and cities were never meant to have exactly the same mechanics (in fact we wanted the mechanics, downsides and upsides of each, to be unique and different). Yes, it's not fair but any argument will have greater weight if it isn't based on 'cities don't deal with X, so communes shouldn't either' or 'communes deal with Y, so cities should have something similar'.
A semblance of parity, with continued inequalities in hard numbers balanced by unquantifiable adavantages and differences (passive replanting, inability to cut saplings/mature trees) is the purpose of the report. I'm not going to count how much power is available to each org and make them equal.
I won't quote my sarcastic reply to your post about power power power power return us all the power etc.
A report on parity would be 1374. The admin have rejected that, and have explicitly said they are against direct city/commune equivalence. 1580 acknowledges that, and avoids that. None of the solutions turn totems into statues, and such a suggestion won't appear in the solutions. I will take other suggestions for as long as it cleaves in line with my intention.
Your post might not, but that doesn't mean that other people are reading differently.
Also, let's not kid ourselves. 1374 wasn't rejected. It was Sol4'd and they said they're willing to come back to it. For the record, I never said I disagree with any of the reports.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
Ah, so that sentence is in reply to me saying I don't care.
Okay, so other people are calling for more parity. I don't care - I will take suggestions that have consensus and sounds fair, wherever the source. It can be Crek's ideas, who have shouldered the bulk of the frustration in past years - as long as it has support. It can be anyone else's ideas. Those that I feel will make the report less likely to pass will not be included. I will compromise on my stance as much as is reasonable.
I've received flak about the vining report, and been told in no uncertain terms that I am fully responsible for its results because I'm the report maker. Well, here's me taking that same responsibility, and the control over the report that comes with it, here. I own the report. I will give the space for all suggestions provided, and consider them, but I own the report. And I don't care about power, about equivalence - only about the possible success of the report.
I don't see how other people reading differently makes any difference. Suggestions that reduce the chance of the report passing will not be included. End of story.
As the original writer of 1374, I'll obviously be more than happy if Estarra changes her mind and implements a solution from there. That's her choice. I'm not going to make 1580 solutions the same as 1374 solutions, though. Those solutions are still there - they can return to it as they said they might at their prerogative. I've tagged her enough times in the forums that she is well aware - not to mention emails. They can reject 1578 and 1580 and do a 1374 solution if they want, I'd support that all the way as well.
If we're all looking for parity, I want all of the org besides Hallifax to also get an honours line quest for doing their power quest ten times, as well as a shortcut in their power quest that cuts their power quest time by around 2/3 or more.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Celests and Mags are as long, and both actually require you to leave the city. Newbies actually die on spectre island, and gorgogs hit both seas. Multiple steps, all of which pay well in xp with gold at the end.
Meanwhile, Hallifax consists of bashing a mob in the nexus, where you conglute if you die, checking the generator to see the current color, checking a city scroll, some pathfinding, and voila. Long winded but neither dangerous nor hard. Not only that, but golden spheres gained from the shortcut can be used by newbies to get their own honours line and shortcut.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I mean...newbies can die to joules too (and it has happened). They're about the same strength as a spectral child. Pathfinding isn't exactly fun when you're a newbie and trying to figure out Hallifax's map, and there's always the possibility of mixing colours wrong, or the Primary Generator randomly shifting to another colour while you're mixing spheres the long way.
But those facts don't really fit in your ill-informed paradigm, I guess.
Magnagora's epic quest requires killing 1200 mutts that run away after every hit. And then dealing with the sea quest. I don't want to get into a pissing contest.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
Comments
Oh wait.
You've had this explained to you on Discord as well, and still you constantly go back to that quote knowing full well you use it out of context.
So yeah, calling you a troll is pretty fair game.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
"See, the communes would have you believe that they don't care about the power generation at all, but when removing it actually brought to the table there is suddenly a caveat to it. So which is it? Does the power generation matter or not?"
Where in that did I say that you guys are claiming that you don't care about power at all? This has always been about the power generation.
Not caring about the power generation from totems enough to want to keep them doesn't mean we don't care about ways to generate power. You know this and still you harp on as if we ever meant otherwise.
That's trolling, and you know full well.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Get rid of power generation and make totems like statues, provide a separate version of choppable trees that generate essence when cut down to let the turds get what they want, I do not care.
The upkeep is what sucks and has driven people away; why argue against it when every positive of the tree it is willing to be given away?
He's has had this explained to him before, he's just trying to get a rise out of you. It's professional level trolling
I said that my preferred solution is to remove the chopping/power generation from totems as a mechanic - the argument in tweets was always that the communes were happy to get rid of the power generation if it meant they didn't have to deal with the chopping (and I guess upkeep, which I'm also ok with making easier). I also even offered a compromise in case that wasn't palatable.
50 essence creatures so you can bash them all? Sure. I'll put that in if there's support for it. Or we can not add any essence creatures, and go ahead with what's stated in the solutions, if there's support for that. I don't fucking care. The report aims to achieve a level of acceptable balance for the goal - reducing the replanting frustration. I don't fucking care about how sore you feel about power, whether it be the passive power accrued over the years, or the continued imbalance in active power that will stay because the admin have rejected equivalent statue/totem mechanics. I don't care about the power. Anything to get one of the solutions passed. I will try to be fair, and continue to try to be fair, and take suggestions and consider other perspectives, but I. DON'T. CARE.
> This entire thread is filled with the word 'parity'
> But you're not looking for equivalence.
Ok.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
IMO I don't think a case has been made in the first place for any change. Just because chopping trees is annoying (which I found out actually is when I moved to Glom), does not justify a change. If an argument could be mounted that tree unfairly disadvantage an org because they can be destroyed so easily then I guess that is reasonable.
Trees and caring for them is at the heart of the forest RP. To me it doesn't make sense to remove this element of the game just because...
06/30/2014 19:37 Silvanus channels the power of the Megalith of Doom for you, stripping you of your Vernal Ascendant status.......bastard!!
I use this when it needs using. Only have to do a little minor editing for it to work on our forums. Does wonders.
The actual mechanical act of walking around the forest pressing a totemcarve alias isn't great or interesting. There are surely ways to work tending to nature into the game mechanically that isn't so imminently griefy and boring.
What if that cat turned out to actually be a dog? That's what taking care of trees are. This is a game, you want an animal that you can ignore because it has made a bed out of your coats that they pulled down in your closet, not one that requires constant upkeep just to keep it alive.
I won't quote my sarcastic reply to your post about power power power power return us all the power etc.
A report on parity would be 1374. The admin have rejected that, and have explicitly said they are against direct city/commune equivalence. 1580 acknowledges that, and avoids that. None of the solutions turn totems into statues, and such a suggestion won't appear in the solutions. I will take other suggestions for as long as it cleaves in line with my intention.
Also, let's not kid ourselves. 1374 wasn't rejected. It was Sol4'd and they said they're willing to come back to it.
For the record, I never said I disagree with any of the reports.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
Okay, so other people are calling for more parity. I don't care - I will take suggestions that have consensus and sounds fair, wherever the source. It can be Crek's ideas, who have shouldered the bulk of the frustration in past years - as long as it has support. It can be anyone else's ideas. Those that I feel will make the report less likely to pass will not be included. I will compromise on my stance as much as is reasonable.
I've received flak about the vining report, and been told in no uncertain terms that I am fully responsible for its results because I'm the report maker. Well, here's me taking that same responsibility, and the control over the report that comes with it, here. I own the report. I will give the space for all suggestions provided, and consider them, but I own the report. And I don't care about power, about equivalence - only about the possible success of the report.
I don't see how other people reading differently makes any difference. Suggestions that reduce the chance of the report passing will not be included. End of story.
Meanwhile, Hallifax consists of bashing a mob in the nexus, where you conglute if you die, checking the generator to see the current color, checking a city scroll, some pathfinding, and voila. Long winded but neither dangerous nor hard. Not only that, but golden spheres gained from the shortcut can be used by newbies to get their own honours line and shortcut.
But those facts don't really fit in your ill-informed paradigm, I guess.
Magnagora's epic quest requires killing 1200 mutts that run away after every hit. And then dealing with the sea quest. I don't want to get into a pissing contest.
If we're talking epics, I'll easily say Hallifax's is the easiest, just time-consuming.