Oh, huh. This just made me realise that Ssaliss managed to investigate someone who got jailed the same night. Guess you can add that to your list of jailing oddities, Thul. I suppose under the flavour of how Ssaliss' investigation works, it's kind of sensible. He's rummaged through peoples' stuff before. But on a strictly mechanical aspect, it is weird. Not sure if that's just par for the game - sometimes Othero kind of feels like a watcher/tracker hybrid.
Yeah, that made me think twice too, but as you said, I don't investigate the people, but rather their rooms, so for me it'd be a bonus if they're not around while I do it
Meanwhile... can else anyone actually confirm that Krackenor's ability is a block? He did visit me on the same night as they tried to recruit me. His visit and the recruit attempt showed up on separate lines, so I think they're unrelated. I wouldn't even be questioning this if his attitude weren't rubbing me the wrong way. Does he seem terse and hyper-aggressive to anyone else? Is that normal, or is this a scum tell for him?
I prefer the term hyper-irritated. As far as my blocking abilities go, I think that they've been pretty well established at this point. As for WHY i'm going for Vivet, I blocked her action, and nobody died. That's suspicious under the best of circumstances, and she is certainly not existing under those.
(Also, i'm sorry Vivet but I don't think those autopsy scars are going to fade).
Meanwhile... can else anyone actually confirm that Krackenor's ability is a block? He did visit me on the same night as they tried to recruit me. His visit and the recruit attempt showed up on separate lines, so I think they're unrelated. I wouldn't even be questioning this if his attitude weren't rubbing me the wrong way. Does he seem terse and hyper-aggressive to anyone else? Is that normal, or is this a scum tell for him?
I prefer the term hyper-irritated. As far as my blocking abilities go, I think that they've been pretty well established at this point. As for WHY i'm going for Vivet, I blocked her action, and nobody died. That's suspicious under the best of circumstances, and she is certainly not existing under those.
(Also, i'm sorry Vivet but I don't think those autopsy scars are going to fade).
To be fair though, you blocking her also means that she can't be the one recruiting people (if we assume Thul is telling the truth, that is).
@Krackenor, that's what you've been saying, but this hasn't exactly been a death-heavy game all around. We may just be out of non-Portius death abilities.
But if both of you agree that was what happened... I'm actually less suspicious of Vivet right now. My initial concern was based on Vivet still having her boss night-immune powers, which if she got stuck in the world's worst dinner date, obviously isn't the case.
Unfortunately that leaves me grasping at straws for who the recruiter is. Cen was legit as of two nights ago, Cyndarin was legit as of three nights ago, which I can only guess means that someone's been lying convincingly about their powers.
I can't verify Ileein's powers, and there's only been Phoebus's verification, which... in the light of cult recruitment, isn't rock solid anymore. That bothers me. But I'm most suspicious of Othero right now. I suppose it's possible that the context of his ability renders him immune to my amnesia-aeon, but I really doubt he should have been able to peek on my boring night without contracting a case of forgetfulness.
First of all, let's stop focusing on who might've been converted or who might not have been. I think we need to play this as if there is no conversion at all; if there is conversion, we need to find whoever converts them, not who they converted.
With that in mind, let's go through the suspects:
Dylara: This is a possibility. We don't technically know that she's a coroner, but even if she is, the attempt at Thul happened on a night she couldn't crack a cold one open. It's entirely possible, even assuming she's a coroner, that she's able to convert people.
Thul: This whole "They tried to convert me" bit might be a smokescreen. After all, why would they go after someone who can choose what to let through and what to block? Second, claiming to not have any day or night powers in a game this power heavy is a bit odd. Yes, we know he has a mayoral seal, but eh, that's no guarantee for anything.
Othero: I investigated him myself and found him to do exactly what he said he's able to do. While this doesn't exactly mean he can't be converted, I'm fairly confident that he's at least not the one who converts people.
Phoebus: Following the Luce-logic, Othero and Phoebus at least shared an alignment when they were put together. As such, I'm also fairly confident that she's not the converter.
Krackenor: I'm fairly certain that he did, in fact, visit Vivet last night. This means he cannot be the one to try to convert Thul.
Melali: While I can't vouch for his actions last night, I did see Cen speaking to someone before heading down into his room. This matches his story, and as such, I'm fairly certain that he's not the one to try to convert Thul.
Portius: Honestly, I'm not sure here. There's nothing that prevents him from acting on Thul last night that I'm aware of, and IIRC, he's only killed Kaimanahi and Rolsand at night (other than a few attempts at Lehki). It's entirely possible that he's not actually a town-aligned killer after all, unless I'm forgetting something (which, frankly, is entirely possible during these 5000+ posts).
Ssaliss: Considering I revealed Silvanus, Kalaneya and Alyrianne, I'd like to think I'm fairly confirmed town.
Cyndarin: While she doesn't have any alibi for this night as far as I can tell, she's been seen fairly often scanning pokemon, so I'm fine with passing her over for now.
Vivet: Since Krackenor blocked her, she can't have been the one to try to convert Thul, so while she's definitely not confirmed town, she's at least not our converter.
Cen: I didn't find anything investigating him, and Melali jailed him tonight, which means I'm fairly confident that he's not our converter either.
Ileein: This is another one I'm not sure of. I can't think of anything off-hand that really makes it impossible for him to be our converter, considering how quiet he's been about the people he investigated. In addition, he claimed to have had his pokemon act on Vivet on a night where Thul Noctowl'd her, and that went through, which seems odd to me.
Following the above arguments, I'd say our converter is one of Dylara, Thul, Portius or Ileein. Between them, I'm honestly leaning a little more towards Thul or Ileein than Dylara or Portius, but that's mostly my gut feeling, and I don't really have anything concrete to argue with there. I'd honestly be fine with either of the above four at this stage.
I tried Thul again because I need his freaking type for my pokedex. I don't understand why Portius is targeting me, it's been verified by like 4 people that I scan people with a pokedex, I was targeted by Ushaara publicly, and there's literally zero evidence that I've done anything but pokedex people the whole game. Largely because that's the extent of my boring ass power.
@Ssaliss I tried to kill Cyndarin last night, reasons are a few of my posts ago. Basically I figured she was a good conversion target, small loss if I was wrong, and she'd been pinging my scumdar every few days without ever being the biggest priority. It might be prudent for me not to attempt a kill tonight to make sure they don't redirect me into a killable town, though.
Having thought about it more, I'm thinking she's probably a better kill than Vivet. Looking back through the thread, I can find two people who have claimed a win condition based on filling their Pokedex: Cynadrin and Silvanus. I started the search with the impression that Ushaara had explicitly claimed that as well, but he only said some things that implied it a little. If we assume that Ushaara implications were deliberate, then we have one person on each scum team and one professed town/third party(split win condition, like Rolsand's) claiming to be going for biggest Pokedex. This is suspicious. If the Chosen can contact the team admin (I think we established that he probably could, right? I'm not crazy?) then it'd be easy for them to coordinate a lie to help protect that chosen by making their claim seem more reliable and less relevant to the town (because it puts the three of them in a minigame). And if you look at the kill list on the first page, those two are listed as team admin.
Problem: Most of us have seen Cyndarin's power in action. She does scan pokemon. So, do we think that's a power that might get attached to the Chosen? It's an important thing to consider, because Cyndarin's having a full pokedex as her win condition is also plausible and matches with what we know. It could have just been Silvanus and (maybe) Ushaara latching onto a convenient false claim with no collusion.
Citation: Silvanus' claimed pokedex victory condition near the middle of page 61. "Infornation on my role is that my victory condition isthat I need to have the largest pokedex at game's end."
There were a few other instances throughout the game of me thinking she was maybe evil, but those were mostly explained away at the time and I'm having trouble finding them again. I'll see if I can pick them out later.
So it's not exactly a damning argument so much as an argument of in the absence of recent and trustworthy evidence, I think we should probably kill Cyndarin. I'm also still open to the Vivet kill for the reasons that I went through above, but I think Cyndarin is more likely to bear fruit.
Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
Also relevant - Melali claimed yesterday that Cen was his original target the night Lehki died, and he only jailed Lehki due to a redirect. Today Portius claims to have targetted Cyndarin but suffered amnesia, but apparently Thul only targetted himself. So there is some sort of trend going with re-directs still, apparently?
@Melali targetting Cen twice in a row suggests he really wanted to talk. Soooo, if you don't mind, care to share what you talked about?
Portius is a Vig going rogue, which is why I hate Vigilantes. He's specifically left out Rolsand's claim, that he was third party and town, and no one believed him. I defended his claim, specifically because it's just like my claim. People even accused me of being suspicious for defending him. Yet I was right! How did I know? Because his third party + town claim made total sense in context of my role.
@Ssaliss: Let's play a game. It's called "Which is more likely?"
Option A: I am scum and lying about the existence of a cult to freak everyone out. That would mean my win condition is numbers-based. I then managed to fabricate a town ability that I was absolutely certain no one else had, and got Tremula to go with it, both in reaction and in actual vote weight on the corresponding day. Then, somehow, I did not use my position of relative safety to pursue my win condition, which would involve killing Phoebus first at a bare frigging minimum, and then going down the list of investigators, all while protected by the god-shield.
Option B: Tremula wanted the most chaotic game imaginable and cackled as she threw in the cult mechanic, along with several other questionably-balanced abilities, a number of which have been revealed. See: god-shield, Metronome, magnitude, Dylara's claim, Sylandra's Pokemon, etc etc.
. If we assume that Ushaara implications were deliberate, then we have one person on each scum team and one professed town/third party(split win condition, like Rolsand's)
I mentioned Rolsand's claim explicitly as something that is similar to yours. By name.
If I was really going rogue, I'd present the possibility of you actually being a split 3rd/party scum, with the option of winning as a 3rd party on Pokedex or declaring for a scum team as the Chosen. But I don't think that's likely. I mean, it's the sort of thing that Tremula would do, which is the reason I briefly considered it, but there's no evidence for it being the case. But I guess in the interest of full disclosure I should say that I did briefly consider it.
My argument against you is pretty simple. There's a set of circumstances which can reasonably be explained by you being the Chosen, assuming that the mafia admin can communicate with the Chosen and that they would want to cooperate with him. Those circumstances could also be reasonably explained by mafia admin being opportunistic. So it's not a certain thing by any means, but it needs consideration.
Following that, you are worth less to the town than any full townie even if your claim is correct. If you win alone, you leave the game. For the purposes of maintaining a numerical majority over the cult, that's the same as you dying. You have been pursuing this solo win condition. So killing you is really low risk relative to killing anyone else.
But we do know that you have your claimed power, or at least something that looks like it. A lot of people have seen it. That means a lot of people are taking your claim as confirmed, which isn't unreasonable. So that makes you a decent choice for cult recruitment. So what are the outcomes of killing you? We kill a cult recruit, we kill a cult recruiter, we kill someone who is likely to "die" (because you winning and you dying are the same for everyone except you if your claim is true) in the near future. I like those odds.
Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
Well, there are numbers ticking down. That could mean that the current cult deal is just a play for time, or a smokescreen. As long as it works for four more nights, something big will happen. Going along with the cult thing means that we'd trust that you were not one of them (after all, why would they try to convert one of their own?), allowing you those four days to point fingers in other directions.
Also, since there appear to be no kills, it could mean that Phoebus is no longer relevant, so there'd be no need to kill her, would there? As I said, if all you're doing right now is playing for time, then there's no need to off her. Also, there'd be no reason to kill the other investigators, since you can just choose to not be investigated by them.
Further, while you definitely had the double vote weight that day, that's just one day out of many, and it's not exactly an impossible power for scum to have, especially since you argued that this isn't a standard game. Right now, you're essentially claiming that you're vanilla town. In a game where everyone has powers. Seems a bit off to me...
Am I saying you're absolutely scum? No, of course not. I'm also, however, not saying that you're absolutely town. All I said was that you were on my list of suspects, and honestly, after that response you didn't exactly fall off of it.
But you didn't mention how my defense of him reverse confirmed my whole claim. How could I have possibly known he was probably telling the truth without some context? You mentioned Rolsand by name, you did not even attempt to consider or explain the full extent of Rolsand's situation. Which is what I said you failed to consider. You went rogue the moment you tried to night kill me based on no information. Your whole premise now is to stall by killing low value probable townies, with a side of conjecture about "scumda." Hard pass on that, that line of reasoning is a dumpster fire. What do we gain by killing me and confirming my claim? Literally nothing, you've stalled a day. I may not even leave the game should I win because, unlike Sylandra, I'm not third party.
Also relevant - Melali claimed yesterday that Cen was his original target the night Lehki died, and he only jailed Lehki due to a redirect. Today Portius claims to have targetted Cyndarin but suffered amnesia, but apparently Thul only targetted himself. So there is some sort of trend going with re-directs still, apparently?
@Melali targetting Cen twice in a row suggests he really wanted to talk. Soooo, if you don't mind, care to share what you talked about?
It's not that I really wanted to talk to Cen, it's just that she filled the three criteria that I look for when I'm jailing people: I haven't jailed her before, her stated power is not one that would be terribly missed, and she doesn't seem too scummy.
As for what we talked about, I simply asked if her to share everything, especially information that would be detrimental in the hands of the Mafia. Honestly, we didn't talk all that much.
Thul may not know. I got amnesia the first time, but this last time I used my Quilava on someone else that wasn't Thul, but he got distracted and ran off. I spent the night chasing after him and no message about my pokedex. Not sure if that had anything to do with Thul or not, it didn't indicate.
I have no idea what's going on here with Cyndarin. I thought she was third party, and we were just ignoring her because unlike with Luce and Synkarin and I... something, sorry, I forget... her condition doesn't actually involve her in the game's chaos in a meaningful way. But she's apparently not third party now? What?
Vivet was going to be top of my line for a default lynch, and then Cyndarin, but... well... Ssaliss.
You're a little too keen to disbelieve the cult thing, and you trying to throw suspicion on me about being the mayor on top of that? Seriously? I'm reading that as a desperate effort to pull me off the board.
I'm forced to conclude that Ssaliss has been converted to the cult. However, I should note that given prior interactions, I don't think he's the recruiter.
Actually, now that I think about it Thul initially claimed not to know I targeted him... And my text had me step outside, forget why I did so, and walk immediately back into my cabin.
Cyndarin targeted me before, and I denied her then. If she targeted me again last night, I won't know until tomorrow.
@CyndarinAscends, what types do you still need? If targeting me will let you complete your task, I'll let it through, but otherwise, forget about it. I'm in fortress mode here.
Comments
(Also, i'm sorry Vivet but I don't think those autopsy scars are going to fade).
But if both of you agree that was what happened... I'm actually less suspicious of Vivet right now. My initial concern was based on Vivet still having her boss night-immune powers, which if she got stuck in the world's worst dinner date, obviously isn't the case.
Unfortunately that leaves me grasping at straws for who the recruiter is. Cen was legit as of two nights ago, Cyndarin was legit as of three nights ago, which I can only guess means that someone's been lying convincingly about their powers.
I can't verify Ileein's powers, and there's only been Phoebus's verification, which... in the light of cult recruitment, isn't rock solid anymore. That bothers me. But I'm most suspicious of Othero right now. I suppose it's possible that the context of his ability renders him immune to my amnesia-aeon, but I really doubt he should have been able to peek on my boring night without contracting a case of forgetfulness.
First of all, let's stop focusing on who might've been converted or who might not have been. I think we need to play this as if there is no conversion at all; if there is conversion, we need to find whoever converts them, not who they converted.
With that in mind, let's go through the suspects:
Dylara: This is a possibility. We don't technically know that she's a coroner, but even if she is, the attempt at Thul happened on a night she couldn't crack a cold one open. It's entirely possible, even assuming she's a coroner, that she's able to convert people.
Thul: This whole "They tried to convert me" bit might be a smokescreen. After all, why would they go after someone who can choose what to let through and what to block? Second, claiming to not have any day or night powers in a game this power heavy is a bit odd. Yes, we know he has a mayoral seal, but eh, that's no guarantee for anything.
Othero: I investigated him myself and found him to do exactly what he said he's able to do. While this doesn't exactly mean he can't be converted, I'm fairly confident that he's at least not the one who converts people.
Phoebus: Following the Luce-logic, Othero and Phoebus at least shared an alignment when they were put together. As such, I'm also fairly confident that she's not the converter.
Krackenor: I'm fairly certain that he did, in fact, visit Vivet last night. This means he cannot be the one to try to convert Thul.
Melali: While I can't vouch for his actions last night, I did see Cen speaking to someone before heading down into his room. This matches his story, and as such, I'm fairly certain that he's not the one to try to convert Thul.
Portius: Honestly, I'm not sure here. There's nothing that prevents him from acting on Thul last night that I'm aware of, and IIRC, he's only killed Kaimanahi and Rolsand at night (other than a few attempts at Lehki). It's entirely possible that he's not actually a town-aligned killer after all, unless I'm forgetting something (which, frankly, is entirely possible during these 5000+ posts).
Ssaliss: Considering I revealed Silvanus, Kalaneya and Alyrianne, I'd like to think I'm fairly confirmed town.
Cyndarin: While she doesn't have any alibi for this night as far as I can tell, she's been seen fairly often scanning pokemon, so I'm fine with passing her over for now.
Vivet: Since Krackenor blocked her, she can't have been the one to try to convert Thul, so while she's definitely not confirmed town, she's at least not our converter.
Cen: I didn't find anything investigating him, and Melali jailed him tonight, which means I'm fairly confident that he's not our converter either.
Ileein: This is another one I'm not sure of. I can't think of anything off-hand that really makes it impossible for him to be our converter, considering how quiet he's been about the people he investigated. In addition, he claimed to have had his pokemon act on Vivet on a night where Thul Noctowl'd her, and that went through, which seems odd to me.
Following the above arguments, I'd say our converter is one of Dylara, Thul, Portius or Ileein. Between them, I'm honestly leaning a little more towards Thul or Ileein than Dylara or Portius, but that's mostly my gut feeling, and I don't really have anything concrete to argue with there. I'd honestly be fine with either of the above four at this stage.
Having thought about it more, I'm thinking she's probably a better kill than Vivet. Looking back through the thread, I can find two people who have claimed a win condition based on filling their Pokedex: Cynadrin and Silvanus. I started the search with the impression that Ushaara had explicitly claimed that as well, but he only said some things that implied it a little. If we assume that Ushaara implications were deliberate, then we have one person on each scum team and one professed town/third party(split win condition, like Rolsand's) claiming to be going for biggest Pokedex. This is suspicious. If the Chosen can contact the team admin (I think we established that he probably could, right? I'm not crazy?) then it'd be easy for them to coordinate a lie to help protect that chosen by making their claim seem more reliable and less relevant to the town (because it puts the three of them in a minigame). And if you look at the kill list on the first page, those two are listed as team admin.
Problem: Most of us have seen Cyndarin's power in action. She does scan pokemon. So, do we think that's a power that might get attached to the Chosen? It's an important thing to consider, because Cyndarin's having a full pokedex as her win condition is also plausible and matches with what we know. It could have just been Silvanus and (maybe) Ushaara latching onto a convenient false claim with no collusion.
Citation: Silvanus' claimed pokedex victory condition near the middle of page 61. "Infornation on my role is that my victory condition isthat I need to have the largest pokedex at game's end."
There were a few other instances throughout the game of me thinking she was maybe evil, but those were mostly explained away at the time and I'm having trouble finding them again. I'll see if I can pick them out later.
So it's not exactly a damning argument so much as an argument of in the absence of recent and trustworthy evidence, I think we should probably kill Cyndarin. I'm also still open to the Vivet kill for the reasons that I went through above, but I think Cyndarin is more likely to bear fruit.
@Melali targetting Cen twice in a row suggests he really wanted to talk. Soooo, if you don't mind, care to share what you talked about?
Option A: I am scum and lying about the existence of a cult to freak everyone out. That would mean my win condition is numbers-based. I then managed to fabricate a town ability that I was absolutely certain no one else had, and got Tremula to go with it, both in reaction and in actual vote weight on the corresponding day. Then, somehow, I did not use my position of relative safety to pursue my win condition, which would involve killing Phoebus first at a bare frigging minimum, and then going down the list of investigators, all while protected by the god-shield.
Option B: Tremula wanted the most chaotic game imaginable and cackled as she threw in the cult mechanic, along with several other questionably-balanced abilities, a number of which have been revealed. See: god-shield, Metronome, magnitude, Dylara's claim, Sylandra's Pokemon, etc etc.
I mentioned Rolsand's claim explicitly as something that is similar to yours. By name.
If I was really going rogue, I'd present the possibility of you actually being a split 3rd/party scum, with the option of winning as a 3rd party on Pokedex or declaring for a scum team as the Chosen. But I don't think that's likely. I mean, it's the sort of thing that Tremula would do, which is the reason I briefly considered it, but there's no evidence for it being the case. But I guess in the interest of full disclosure I should say that I did briefly consider it.
My argument against you is pretty simple. There's a set of circumstances which can reasonably be explained by you being the Chosen, assuming that the mafia admin can communicate with the Chosen and that they would want to cooperate with him. Those circumstances could also be reasonably explained by mafia admin being opportunistic. So it's not a certain thing by any means, but it needs consideration.
Following that, you are worth less to the town than any full townie even if your claim is correct. If you win alone, you leave the game. For the purposes of maintaining a numerical majority over the cult, that's the same as you dying. You have been pursuing this solo win condition. So killing you is really low risk relative to killing anyone else.
But we do know that you have your claimed power, or at least something that looks like it. A lot of people have seen it. That means a lot of people are taking your claim as confirmed, which isn't unreasonable. So that makes you a decent choice for cult recruitment. So what are the outcomes of killing you? We kill a cult recruit, we kill a cult recruiter, we kill someone who is likely to "die" (because you winning and you dying are the same for everyone except you if your claim is true) in the near future. I like those odds.
Also, since there appear to be no kills, it could mean that Phoebus is no longer relevant, so there'd be no need to kill her, would there? As I said, if all you're doing right now is playing for time, then there's no need to off her. Also, there'd be no reason to kill the other investigators, since you can just choose to not be investigated by them.
Further, while you definitely had the double vote weight that day, that's just one day out of many, and it's not exactly an impossible power for scum to have, especially since you argued that this isn't a standard game. Right now, you're essentially claiming that you're vanilla town. In a game where everyone has powers. Seems a bit off to me...
Am I saying you're absolutely scum? No, of course not. I'm also, however, not saying that you're absolutely town. All I said was that you were on my list of suspects, and honestly, after that response you didn't exactly fall off of it.
So right there, Cyndarin has said she targetted you last night. Got anything to say about that?
As for what we talked about, I simply asked if her to share everything, especially information that would be detrimental in the hands of the Mafia. Honestly, we didn't talk all that much.
I have no idea what's going on here with Cyndarin. I thought she was third party, and we were just ignoring her because unlike with Luce and Synkarin and I... something, sorry, I forget... her condition doesn't actually involve her in the game's chaos in a meaningful way. But she's apparently not third party now? What?
Vivet was going to be top of my line for a default lynch, and then Cyndarin, but... well... Ssaliss.
You're a little too keen to disbelieve the cult thing, and you trying to throw suspicion on me about being the mayor on top of that? Seriously? I'm reading that as a desperate effort to pull me off the board.
I'm forced to conclude that Ssaliss has been converted to the cult. However, I should note that given prior interactions, I don't think he's the recruiter.
Congratulations, Vivet, you may have convinced me
@CyndarinAscends, what types do you still need? If targeting me will let you complete your task, I'll let it through, but otherwise, forget about it. I'm in fortress mode here.