I think part of the problem, at least from my perspective, is that what is considered IC here is an incredibly loose definition - so what's borderline OOC for some of us is perfectly acceptable to others. I've found that with RP in general - the forums talk a lot about the depth of lore in the world but not a lot of it is particularly active, and characters are more avatars/vessels for the player (like a mask) to tool around in, rather than an independent creation that is used to engage in the world and story (more like a puppet).
Also, Borderline OOC isn't issuable I don't think, since it isn't overt and clear crossing of the line - it's just watered down shallow that could swing either way, but toes the safety line.
I didn't get 'burned' by Mag and leave. I'm still in Mag. I just have no real inclination to play because of the current casualness in the city.
A prime example: I don't even recall what started the discussion, but Shango said something to me and I pointed out that I deplore the concept of PKers being better than everyone else based solely on their ability to PK and that everyone has something to offer and that I don't believe might makes right. Someone could kill me, but it doesn't mean that I'm stupid or incapable of having input.' This led to him disagreeing with me and the next time I log in, I have a slew of messages from Munsia swearing at me and telling me she was going to drag the n'Lochli through the dirt and apparently attempted to ban family members from hunts or participating in things for the city. Then when I didn't respond, the messages kept coming about throwing down with me, etc.
That's a level of pettiness and irritation I'm not comfortable with.
I logged in after some random event, and see a huge discussion on CT about how we should convert Yarith, to which someone responded 'He'd just run back to Taevyn because he's a lapdog.' as well as some other comments.
While you can say 'but that's within the bounds of Magnagoran roleplay' and I don't disagree, it's uncomfortable for me because it's constant and petty. I have not -personally- encountered the same sort of attitude elsewhere. And it's the attitude that bothers me. These are things that bother -me- and make me not want to log in. While these are the only examples I can think of off the top of my head and aren't really relevant on their own, it's part of a larger problem for me and not one I want to be around.
I've read the CTs. They were far more colourful (read: degrading) than that. Not as bad as a few I've read in the past though.
There's a difference between roleplaying an enlightened nation with an end justifies the means mentality, but, when you create a community where you actively encourage and allow apathy and degradation to spill onto an in-character aether which newbies can listen to and the gods in your org have to respect, you're creating an atmosphere which conditions newbies to act like that. Even if you removed the problem entirely now, you'll still have echoes of it in the future from the way newbies have experienced the city and how they may think it's intended and encouraged.
While I'm sure the Divine of Magnagora would love to be plotting and scheming and making neat little ploys about the people you complain about, how is a god supposed to respond to that kind of communication? They can't encourage but they can't outright condone it either, and if they do the clique-majority of the city will be in uproar.
Edit: If you want to say bad things about people on public aethers, sure! By all means! Just be careful what you say.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
Yeah, @Yarith, I couldn't recall the exact phrasing or the other comments, but the general feeling I got from it was blech. I've seen others like it in the past commenting on people's sexual preferences, families, etc. So it's not an isolated occurance.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I've shown up to help on Domoths, and quietly autobashed Stage 2 only to find some random D'Cente Mags I've never met randomly talking shit about me while I'm standing right there.
When I was invited to join Crux when I was in Glom because I was helping Gaudi with Domoths, several Mags I have never had IC interactions with (one of them stars with an A and rhymes with "anus") were calling me names.
Given this was many months back, but I kind of just stopped joining their stuff. Some Mag's are perfectly great to hang out with, probably even most.. Ixion's made me laugh on numerous occasions. Marcella is very inviting to talk to outside of the "I'll eff you in the skull with a dead hamster" stuff. There are just times (repeatedly) where someone gets out of line and a little too personal, and none of the Mags present ever really say "cut it out."
Constructive part: It can sometimes be important to temper certain responses to certain types of players. One reason Lerad doesn't RP much is because I'm here for the gameplay first, and the RP second. Of course, I also avoid speaking on CT at all when I have no interest of staying in-character, and generally speaking I feel I do a passable job of maintaining consistency and immersion for those who share their online times with me.
Having an outlet for socialisation does help, of course, and recently, I realised how important it was for newbies to have that kind of support too. Salome's clan for all glommies, especially newbies, to be OOC in also helps to subtly remind everyone what is acceptable in the official channels, without depriving those who want to just have a casual gaming session. Proper moderation is needed, of course, to ensure that things don't bleed out, and also to prevent people like me from relying only on ooc channels for socialising (not the point of this game). Definitely agree with Celina that changing the culture is more important than just 'kicking out all the everyones'.
Not-constructive part: All that said, this thread has been a nice exercise for me to review my own habits and make mental notes for my own improvement. It has also been a painful experience of sympathy for some of my friends who play in mag. I can't begin to imagine the kind of ear-plugging 'neener neener neener' you have to deal with, because examples in this thread alone has raised my gorge too much to contemplate the ground reality. A pity, really. One day, it would have been nice to rely on mags not as an ally with Lerad, but as mates with an alt. Probably not in the near future, though.
I kinda feel like mags who are saying "there's no problem here, we're all good, people who have problems are just crazy" have some sort of white entitlement - type issues. It's like how some people swear racism is dead because they haven't personally been discriminated against.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I kinda feel like mags who are saying "there's no problem here, we're all good, people who have problems are just crazy" have some sort of white entitlement - type issues. It's like how some people swear racism is dead because they haven't personally been discriminated against.
Well, Arcanis said it himself, really. Despite the discussion, Magnagora still has the largest population of any org and, for all intents and purposes, is generally perceived as "winning". It can be pretty hard to convince people things need changing when they hold a good share of the domoths/villages/bubbles.
It's really hard to just 'kick people out' when it's hard, as usual, to argue with results. Whatever we're doing is working for us mechanically. Whether it's sustainable? Who knows. But it's been like this for basically as long as I've been playing this game, and that's like 3 years.
It's really hard to just 'kick people out' when it's hard, as usual, to argue with results. Whatever we're doing is working for us mechanically. Whether it's sustainable? Who knows. But it's been like this for basically as long as I've been playing this game, and that's like 3 years.
That may very well be, but at what point is it acceptable, either morally or even professionally, to trade your novice retention and common decency to keep around someone who may help you win that domoth, but constantly drives people away, asks for furry sex slaves over the market, and tends to piss off most of the admin in the game, much less the city?
It's kind of like a victim of spousal abuse that makes the excuse, "Well, they pay the bills and make sure I'm fed, so I can put up with it."
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
So I wanted to ask if it's just the culture here but is it common for people to be so reluctant to kick someone from the organisation?
There's a lot of guilt associated with such actions. Crek and I were discussing it the other day on a clan. In most of the cases where I've booted someone, the cases have generally been pretty straightforward and it generally comes down to whether or not the person is generally good for the organization on a whole. Not to mention, it's a good lesson for some people in order to get their act together. Nothing says that person can't rejoin down the road, but if they keep repeating the same mistakes and don't change their attitude? I don't have any sympathy.
if it was just kicking out munsia it'd probably be fine
but it's the fear of 'we kick out munsia, we also lose half our aether fleet and Crown of the Empire because the family (which includes arimisia) will take it away/forbid its use, we also lose the hundreds and hundreds of credits/dingbats/millions and millions of gold d'cente brings, ari could break off her infinite commodity supply from mag which would make prices for everything go up, and they can genuinely, as a family, make the entire city's life really difficult if they wanted to because they own so much of our capitol because d'Cente was all about powergaming and earning and amassing wealth/resources'
If gold, commodity prices and an aethership are worth more to you than fixing a problem which the greater half of the game has cited, all the more power to you.
Edit: Not that I'm saying kicking someone will solve a problem. @Ilthilior looks like he's working hard but it's not something which is just going to be fixed overnight. It probably could be solved without kicking people, but as long as you keep finding reasons to justify not trying, you're never going to get anywhere.
(I'm the mom of Hallifax btw, so if you are in Hallifax please call me mom.)
== Professional Girl Gamer == Yes I play games Yes I'm a girl get over it
if it was just kicking out munsia it'd probably be fine
but it's the fear of 'we kick out munsia, we also lose half our aether fleet and Crown of the Empire because the family (which includes arimisia) will take it away/forbid its use, we also lose the hundreds and hundreds of credits/dingbats/millions and millions of gold d'cente brings, ari could break off her infinite commodity supply from mag which would make prices for everything go up, and they can genuinely, as a family, make the entire city's life really difficult if they wanted to because they own so much of our capitol because d'Cente was all about powergaming and earning and amassing wealth/resources'
I.. I feel like you just called me a mob boss...
The soft, hollow voice of Nocht, the Silent resounds within your mind as His words echo through the aether, "Congratulations, Arimisia. Your mastery of vermin cannot be disputed."
if it was just kicking out munsia it'd probably be fine
but it's the fear of 'we kick out munsia, we also lose half our aether fleet and Crown of the Empire because the family (which includes arimisia) will take it away/forbid its use, we also lose the hundreds and hundreds of credits/dingbats/millions and millions of gold d'cente brings, ari could break off her infinite commodity supply from mag which would make prices for everything go up, and they can genuinely, as a family, make the entire city's life really difficult if they wanted to because they own so much of our capitol because d'Cente was all about powergaming and earning and amassing wealth/resources'
I.. I feel like you just called me a mob boss...
No offense, love, but you're kinda Munsia's gun moll. The American definition, not the Aussie one
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
if it was just kicking out munsia it'd probably be fine
but it's the fear of 'we kick out munsia, we also lose half our aether fleet and Crown of the Empire because the family (which includes arimisia) will take it away/forbid its use, we also lose the hundreds and hundreds of credits/dingbats/millions and millions of gold d'cente brings, ari could break off her infinite commodity supply from mag which would make prices for everything go up, and they can genuinely, as a family, make the entire city's life really difficult if they wanted to because they own so much of our capitol because d'Cente was all about powergaming and earning and amassing wealth/resources'
I.. I feel like you just called me a mob boss...
Don D'Cente. I hope your first child is a masculine child. I'm going to leave you now because I know you're busy.
Mag thrived without some characters with a bad attitude. Without them a lot of new persons decided to show up and stick around to do great things. Then a problematic individual is allowed back in and oops, Mag has trouble to keep its awesome citizens from leaving. All the citizens leaving also used to bring a lot of resources AND some positive energy that made everyone much more active and fulfilled about everything.
for funsies @kaalak would it surprise you to learn that @tremula and I have made up and you don't have to drag my pastebins out of the year-old murk
It's almost like we're both young adults who are still emotionally maturing, had a falling out, and decided to put it behind us and make up because we're both better than that. Weird.
On the other hand, Magnagora being home of the bad guys kind of allows the other orgs to have less of them.
See you in Sapience.
0
SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
My input on this is totally skewed as I never enjoyed the very mechanics-heavy aspects of Lusternia, and I was a newer player to Lusternia at the time of the events I'm going to recount, so I might have rosy-tinted glasses and deep nostalgia to contend with. But here it is anyway.
I remember a Hallifax where mechanically, things were a bit stable, but the general morale was low because of infighting. People threatened to leave and grumbled often about the leadership, the pantheon, the alliances of the week, who had brought biases with them from their old orgs, etc. Several of our most mechanically minded players left, and they were the ones who had been most embroiled in that conflict.
After they left, Hallifax hit a funny period of time where it wasn't particularly talented at much of anything mechanically speaking, like domoths or revolts or whatever. We totally got curb-stomped by Magnagoran raids, especially when Fillin set up one of his death melds. But morale was going up because the people left behind were starting to get along with each other. As the morale went up, more people joined the city, and those people stuck around. Some of those people, though not many of them, were PVPers (hi Prav). CWHO got bigger every day. We'd managed to hold onto Rockholm longer than we ever expected to. We realized we had a lot of writers. We discovered we could get Cultural Centre, and we liked it.
And you know, maybe it wasn't the most OP time of Hallifax's history, but it was a lot of fun. (Well, I had fun. I like to think a lot of other people had fun then, too.) But that's usually how I measure my experience in Lusternia. Am I excited to log in? Am I having fun? The more people in your org who can answer both of those questions with a resounding "yes," the better.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
Munsia has been kicked out before. Three times now? It rings a bell. Nothing dire happened. Arimisia didn't go anywhere. We still made power, we still won things, we had fun. Lame excuses are lame.
That being said I'm against kicking for no reason, but she did give many reasons. Each time? Someone crumbled to her nagging and peer pressure and let her back in. Only for history to repeat itself.
I still think it's pretty fucking sad you don't want to give up benefits (oh no! power that'll you'll never use) so that other people can play your org and experience it.
I'm pretty sure people joining your org and liking it is more important than one person running an incest furry harem and creeping on females -as soon as they exit the portal-
Then quit running your furry harem in Mag, Chirbo.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Comments
Not as bad as a few I've read in the past though.
There's a difference between roleplaying an enlightened nation with an end justifies the means mentality, but, when you create a community where you actively encourage and allow apathy and degradation to spill onto an in-character aether which newbies can listen to and the gods in your org have to respect, you're creating an atmosphere which conditions newbies to act like that. Even if you removed the problem entirely now, you'll still have echoes of it in the future from the way newbies have experienced the city and how they may think it's intended and encouraged.
While I'm sure the Divine of Magnagora would love to be plotting and scheming and making neat little ploys about the people you complain about, how is a god supposed to respond to that kind of communication? They can't encourage but they can't outright condone it either, and if they do the clique-majority of the city will be in uproar.
Edit:
If you want to say bad things about people on public aethers, sure! By all means! Just be careful what you say.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
Constructive part: It can sometimes be important to temper certain responses to certain types of players. One reason Lerad doesn't RP much is because I'm here for the gameplay first, and the RP second. Of course, I also avoid speaking on CT at all when I have no interest of staying in-character, and generally speaking I feel I do a passable job of maintaining consistency and immersion for those who share their online times with me.
Having an outlet for socialisation does help, of course, and recently, I realised how important it was for newbies to have that kind of support too. Salome's clan for all glommies, especially newbies, to be OOC in also helps to subtly remind everyone what is acceptable in the official channels, without depriving those who want to just have a casual gaming session. Proper moderation is needed, of course, to ensure that things don't bleed out, and also to prevent people like me from relying only on ooc channels for socialising (not the point of this game). Definitely agree with Celina that changing the culture is more important than just 'kicking out all the everyones'.
Not-constructive part: All that said, this thread has been a nice exercise for me to review my own habits and make mental notes for my own improvement. It has also been a painful experience of sympathy for some of my friends who play in mag. I can't begin to imagine the kind of ear-plugging 'neener neener neener' you have to deal with, because examples in this thread alone has raised my gorge too much to contemplate the ground reality. A pity, really. One day, it would have been nice to rely on mags not as an ally with Lerad, but as mates with an alt. Probably not in the near future, though.
06/30/2014 19:37 Silvanus channels the power of the Megalith of Doom for you, stripping you of your Vernal Ascendant status.......bastard!!
That may very well be, but at what point is it acceptable, either morally or even professionally, to trade your novice retention and common decency to keep around someone who may help you win that domoth, but constantly drives people away, asks for furry sex slaves over the market, and tends to piss off most of the admin in the game, much less the city?
It's kind of like a victim of spousal abuse that makes the excuse, "Well, they pay the bills and make sure I'm fed, so I can put up with it."
There's a lot of guilt associated with such actions. Crek and I were discussing it the other day on a clan. In most of the cases where I've booted someone, the cases have generally been pretty straightforward and it generally comes down to whether or not the person is generally good for the organization on a whole. Not to mention, it's a good lesson for some people in order to get their act together. Nothing says that person can't rejoin down the road, but if they keep repeating the same mistakes and don't change their attitude? I don't have any sympathy.
Edit: Not that I'm saying kicking someone will solve a problem. @Ilthilior looks like he's working hard but it's not something which is just going to be fixed overnight. It probably could be solved without kicking people, but as long as you keep finding reasons to justify not trying, you're never going to get anywhere.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
No offense, love, but you're kinda Munsia's gun moll. The American definition, not the Aussie one
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."