Magnagora just needs to make it so that if someone gets booted and has been booted historically for being a nuisance, they don't get let back in by some of the few people that may tolerate that person or have some measure of hero worship for them. Ultimately, the playerbase has to come to the realization that if one person is truly contentious enough to cause a rift in Magnagora, they probably shouldn't be let back in. The needs of the many outweigh the few, in this case. Not to mention, you're telling the person with the behavior issues that their behavior is entirely acceptable because no matter what they do, they'll just be let back in. That really isn't acceptable towards a healthy playing environment.
Unfortunately, these are issues that are indicative with "Evil Org Syndrome" (as one person put it). The "evil" organizations have a tendency to attract all sorts, but they can generally also attract asshats and have the highest concentration of them. This has been true with Mhaldor in Achaea, Stavenn in Imperian, Sar-Sargoth in Midkemia, Bloodloch in Aetolia, and Magnagora (and sometimes Glomdoring) here. I'm going to state that just because your organization is "evil" in purpose, that doesn't mean you do/should have free reign to be an ass. Yes, act like a noble snob in Magnagora, act like an elitist, you've earned your way to the top of the food chain. However, an organization is only as strong as the newbies that want to play in it and grow there PLUS all the other players that actively contribute outside of combat.
The other "evil" organizations in IRE have different means of keeping the asshats in check. Mhaldor has Sartan, whose word as God is pretty much law and he has the authority to tell people to knock it off if they're being unruly. Sartan, and Mhaldor in general knows that Slaves will become future leadership one day. Bloodloch has Abhorash leading the vampires and their patrons do a decent job of making sure people don't get too big for their britches. Dunno about Sar-Sargoth much and Stavenn hasn't really had retention issues with the Servitor program.
Basically, stop letting the same trouble people in if they're causing issues. I know of a friend of mine from Aetolia that was trying the game for the first time and she stopped playing the game PERIOD because of one particularly nasty and infamous person in Magnagora. Sorry, but losing promising people is not worth even the best fighter in the game. I don't care if they're your friend or not, that kind of behavior should be unacceptable.
Edit: Oh, and if that small group of people want to keep trying to induct a person that is a known problem player? Raise the issue with your leadership to boot them too. If their loyalties to that person outweigh their loyalties to Magnagora and what is best for it, they probably shouldn't be in the organization.
People should have to read that post before they take over a leadership position in Magnagora.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
People should have to read that post before they take over a leadership position in Magnagora.
There's so many other things that I have to do as an org leader...
On a more serious note, things are not recorded anywhere, ever. So even if someone does something, they're back up to CR6 in 7 days, because that's how Magnagora works.
Which should change.
3
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Unfortunately Magnagora's problems are not as easily solved as just a determined person taking over and kicking people out. Mechanics don't allow for unilateral control over such things, you can kick one person out, and then some other person will let them back in, and then it can domino forever until half the org is empty...and it might not be the good half that is left.
When it becomes deeply rooted, it has to be a cultural shift to change these things, and that kind of change is done in small increments over time. If you just try to kick the door down and start busting heads, you better know you have majority support by a healthy margin first.
This...constant bitching about "borderline OOC talk" on Mag CT is becoming pretty aggravating, even when I have expliciting stated there is no OOC talk.
If you see OOC talk, just issue it. I've really had more than enough of random people that post "mag suxs' and when I ask countless citizens in game about certain actions (like talking OOC on ct, and being bullied) they have no clue what is going on (other than Munsia). It most annoys me that these complaints come from people outside of Mag...that seem to only do it just as an excuse to throw trash and dirt from old grudges. This has been the case for almost any situation that brings up Magnagora, and has become rather childish at this point.
If the organization itself, being Magnagora, is having no issues and it itself has no idea where these complaints are flowering from, then I dont see much reason for me to give this thread any more attention.
Again, i'll end with this, If you have an issue, contact a council member or ISSUE yourself. Im pretty sure the admin would have stepped in by now if this "Blatant OOC TALK OMG!!! BULLY US!" has been occurring and reached such a critical level, rather than Magnagora being such an active city, if not more active than most.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited February 2016
Alternatively, consider that some people are expressing their opinions out of concern for an organization they invested a lot of time in or an organization they would like to see succeed for their own reasons, and are adult enough to not make things up just to score internet points about some (imagined) grudge.
Generally speaking, if you want to know what issues an organization has, you do not ask people all living in the same wheelhouse. You ask the people who have left or outsiders who have interacted with your organization. Perhaps with a grain of salt, perhaps not, but if all you do is yell into an echo chamber, you're always going to get the same answer.
Either way, I'm sure most people give about as many fucks about your attention in this thread as they do about pursuing a personal grudge against you (zero). It's your prerogative, no one is forcing you to participate. Unfortunately, if all you've gotten is that Mag's CT is OOC, which hasn't really been discussed at length or noted as popular opinion by anyone, then you aren't reading and your assessment is correct....there is no more reason for you to give this thread anymore attention.
I think the revisionist history in this thread is hilarious. Maybe Mag would be alright if certain people wouldn't do anything and everything to get to the top and then sat on their hands and do nothing when there, and held no one accountable.
Some of us removed a lot of these problems only to have them allowed back in and their positions and rank given back. Some of us recorded everything, but then get ignored anyways. Some of us did far more than the bulk of the players deserve.
Oh and by the way some of the people in this thread are just as responsible for the problems in Magnagora as the perceived furry crew.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
This...constant bitching about "borderline OOC talk" on Mag CT is becoming pretty aggravating, even when I have expliciting stated there is no OOC talk.
If you see OOC talk, just issue it. I've really had more than enough of random people that post "mag suxs' and when I ask countless citizens in game about certain actions (like talking OOC on ct, and being bullied) they have no clue what is going on (other than Munsia). It most annoys me that these complaints come from people outside of Mag...that seem to only do it just as an excuse to throw trash and dirt from old grudges. This has been the case for almost any situation that brings up Magnagora, and has become rather childish at this point.
If the organization itself, being Magnagora, is having no issues and it itself has no idea where these complaints are flowering from, then I dont see much reason for me to give this thread any more attention.
Again, i'll end with this, If you have an issue, contact a council member or ISSUE yourself. Im pretty sure the admin would have stepped in by now if this "Blatant OOC TALK OMG!!! BULLY US!" has been occurring and reached such a critical level, rather than Magnagora being such an active city, if not more active than most.
I'm not saying it's OOC. I was saying that is was very casual and jarring compared to the way Magnagora was and the way I remembered other cities being.
And other people have a right to talk about these things, no one in this thread is a real-life citizen of Magnagora. A lot of the people who have brought up problems have either had an alt in the city and were turned off by certain things or were in the city and got turned off and no longer wanted to play there. We should be listening to them because it means that there are things in the org that's turning people away and keeping us from having as strong as a population as we could.
It's funny because the CT has historically devolved into actual, factual, REAL OOC TALK about curing systems, the overhaul, etc. And people here denying it have contributed to it. Like...pls.
Crumkane, Lord of Epicurean Delights says, "WAS IT INDEED ON FIRE, ERITHEYL."
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With a deep reverb, Contemptible Sutekh says, "CEASE YOUR INFERNAL ENERGY, ERITHEYL."
I haven't seen anything indicative in this thread about people making fun of Magnagora, holding grudges, etc. However, when I hear from a friend that she is quitting Lusternia entirely and not bothering to give it another go because of one person's actions. One person, who I might add, has been booted from Magnagora numerous times, shrubbed numerous times, and ALLOWED back into Magnagora with a red carpet rolled out for her despite all this... That is valid criticism regardless of the source it's coming from. That is pretty repugnant and enabling behavior and is indicative of people allowing friendships and cliques to poison their ability to see the proper solution: permanently banning that individual from the organization.
So, yes. Magnagora probably could stand to have some improvement. I think some of Magnagora's best days were when most of the city were united under Fain and there was a pretty common accord between His Order and the city. Fain was no nonsense and there's a reason why, despite being in Glomdoring for my Lusternian career, I admire his order and his character concept.
In any event, I wouldn't view any of these posts as an attack on Magnagora. I'd look at it as criticism where Magnagora can improve and from what I've heard from others as well as read in this thread, it always seems to be sourced back to a handful of people.
2
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Sometimes I think flags are more revealing than posts. My respectful, impassioned post to Yarou was clearly spam. Who is the one with the grudge again, Arcanis?
And Silvanus is right. I often thought the bigger problem wasn't Munsia per say, but all the people that let her get away with everything or conveniently ignored her behaviour, or spouted 'just ignore her', 'we can't do anything about her anyway, no point trying'. Enablers. Things can and were done, but they were overturned. It's why I said it's not an isolated issue. It's an attitude adopted by many, and it's crippling to the rp of Magnagora. And being on the receiving ends numerous times of hers and others abuse for daring to care, denying it exists is just being part of the problem.
(On the topic of ooc - I remember a lot of people getting annoyed at Arcanis bringing up IC on CT the same tripe as he was spouting on forums. Like how the 'fates' were unfair and biased towards Celest and Princess farewell. Because that sort of thing totally isn't borderline ooc. Using IC phrases doesn't make something IC.)
Again, this entire thread is incredibly pointless, with apparent input being given by people who generally left the org on bad terms.
@Celina this here is some logic, which I know is incredibly uncommon in your rather tacky and useless lifesteal
- People are saying there is a problem in the org?
You ask the org
- The org is asked
They say they dont see this problem
- You look back at the source
The source apparently are individuals claiming these bursts of OOC exist, and have a history of generally attempting to trash talk this organization.
- Conclusion: There is no actual problem
Again, I will repeat: You see this problem, then ISSUE. It really isnt difficult, because apparently this magically invisible chats that have been occurring, are going under the radar.
When you get individuals that are literaly bottom barrel trolls like Celina to be not only backing something up, but actually defending it, then your case just dropped by 98% in legitmacy just there.
Again, the obvious: If there was a problem, the Admin would have gotten to it by now. There isnt a problem.
For those ttrying to trash talk, please go and find something more useless to do in your times rather than constantly dismissing an org that is doing quite fine if -more- fine than most others. It has went from childishness to harassment at this point, and this thread should just be locked by now.
Just to clarify, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence @Arcanis - just because people don't say there is a problem, doesn't mean there isn't a problem. Current Mags have commented on stuff, former Mags have commented on stuff and for some reason because the people you asked say there isn't a problem - you dismiss all those opinions.
Oh man, the absolute lack of logic in the @Arcanis statement is astounding.
This is why no one listens to you or takes you seriously.
(and to think he tried to pass it off as completely logical)
If yours and Celina's posts werent literally for the pure reason of "it's this person, let's beat on him", then perhaps I would take your statements seriously, but you and her basically admit to responding to posts and even game statements on the literaly fact of "Lol, it's this guy!". You and her basically take the cup on trolling.
Again, the 'logical': Even though this thread wasnt stated on "talking OOC (though Othero accidently made it perceived that way)" people have actually stepped up (people who were burned in Magnagora and seem to take near every oppertunity to attack it) stating there has been some (i quote) "Blatant OOC talk" and "REAL OOC TALK', then again, -issue-. I dont know how many times I can say this.
Other than that, if the conversations in Magnagora are too casual for your RP, then simply go forth and try to find more engaging conversations, im sure you'll absolutely adore the ones in serenwilde and gaudiguch.
Finally, we are happy, we enjoy our org, if you do not, by all means, -look away-. We are doing fantastically well these days, and frankly your venom, is nothing but borderline harassment these days.
Please enjoy whatever RP you gain from your own little groups, we are enjoying our own.
Just because you're happy doesn't mean everyone is, you know. Leaving on bad terms doesn't make my opinion any less significant, since the reason I left on those bad terms was because of those problems.
3
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited February 2016
I don't know how to let you down easy with this @Arcanis, but I have no idea what your contributions to Magnagora's current issues may or may not be because I have never cared enough to ask about what you do.
As much as you are trying to make this about you, girl, I have to tell you that while I don't like you, I also don't give a shit about you. I mean that in the nicest way possible.
This is not about you.
edit: I left Mag on my own terms, there was no fallout between Mag and myself. It was quite cordial.
I don't know how to let you down easy with this @Arcanis, but I have no idea what your contributions to Magnagora's current issues may or may not be because I have never cared enough to ask about what you do.
As much as you are trying to make this about you, girl, I have to tell you that while I don't like you, I also don't give a shit about you. I mean that in the nicest way possible.
This is not about you.
edit: I left Mag on my own terms, there was no fallout between Mag and myself. It was quite cordial.
Glom hates you. This was pretty much the exchange between Viravain and Celina:
I didn't get 'burned' by Mag and leave. I'm still in Mag. I just have no real inclination to play because of the current casualness in the city.
A prime example: I don't even recall what started the discussion, but Shango said something to me and I pointed out that I deplore the concept of PKers being better than everyone else based solely on their ability to PK and that everyone has something to offer and that I don't believe might makes right. Someone could kill me, but it doesn't mean that I'm stupid or incapable of having input.' This led to him disagreeing with me and the next time I log in, I have a slew of messages from Munsia swearing at me and telling me she was going to drag the n'Lochli through the dirt and apparently attempted to ban family members from hunts or participating in things for the city. Then when I didn't respond, the messages kept coming about throwing down with me, etc.
That's a level of pettiness and irritation I'm not comfortable with.
I logged in after some random event, and see a huge discussion on CT about how we should convert Yarith, to which someone responded 'He'd just run back to Taevyn because he's a lapdog.' as well as some other comments.
While you can say 'but that's within the bounds of Magnagoran roleplay' and I don't disagree, it's uncomfortable for me because it's constant and petty. I have not -personally- encountered the same sort of attitude elsewhere. And it's the attitude that bothers me. These are things that bother -me- and make me not want to log in. While these are the only examples I can think of off the top of my head and aren't really relevant on their own, it's part of a larger problem for me and not one I want to be around.
Comments
Unfortunately, these are issues that are indicative with "Evil Org Syndrome" (as one person put it). The "evil" organizations have a tendency to attract all sorts, but they can generally also attract asshats and have the highest concentration of them. This has been true with Mhaldor in Achaea, Stavenn in Imperian, Sar-Sargoth in Midkemia, Bloodloch in Aetolia, and Magnagora (and sometimes Glomdoring) here. I'm going to state that just because your organization is "evil" in purpose, that doesn't mean you do/should have free reign to be an ass. Yes, act like a noble snob in Magnagora, act like an elitist, you've earned your way to the top of the food chain. However, an organization is only as strong as the newbies that want to play in it and grow there PLUS all the other players that actively contribute outside of combat.
The other "evil" organizations in IRE have different means of keeping the asshats in check. Mhaldor has Sartan, whose word as God is pretty much law and he has the authority to tell people to knock it off if they're being unruly. Sartan, and Mhaldor in general knows that Slaves will become future leadership one day. Bloodloch has Abhorash leading the vampires and their patrons do a decent job of making sure people don't get too big for their britches. Dunno about Sar-Sargoth much and Stavenn hasn't really had retention issues with the Servitor program.
Basically, stop letting the same trouble people in if they're causing issues. I know of a friend of mine from Aetolia that was trying the game for the first time and she stopped playing the game PERIOD because of one particularly nasty and infamous person in Magnagora. Sorry, but losing promising people is not worth even the best fighter in the game. I don't care if they're your friend or not, that kind of behavior should be unacceptable.
Edit: Oh, and if that small group of people want to keep trying to induct a person that is a known problem player? Raise the issue with your leadership to boot them too. If their loyalties to that person outweigh their loyalties to Magnagora and what is best for it, they probably shouldn't be in the organization.
If you see OOC talk, just issue it. I've really had more than enough of random people that post "mag suxs' and when I ask countless citizens in game about certain actions (like talking OOC on ct, and being bullied) they have no clue what is going on (other than Munsia). It most annoys me that these complaints come from people outside of Mag...that seem to only do it just as an excuse to throw trash and dirt from old grudges. This has been the case for almost any situation that brings up Magnagora, and has become rather childish at this point.
If the organization itself, being Magnagora, is having no issues and it itself has no idea where these complaints are flowering from, then I dont see much reason for me to give this thread any more attention.
Again, i'll end with this, If you have an issue, contact a council member or ISSUE yourself. Im pretty sure the admin would have stepped in by now if this "Blatant OOC TALK OMG!!! BULLY US!" has been occurring and reached such a critical level, rather than Magnagora being such an active city, if not more active than most.
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So, yes. Magnagora probably could stand to have some improvement. I think some of Magnagora's best days were when most of the city were united under Fain and there was a pretty common accord between His Order and the city. Fain was no nonsense and there's a reason why, despite being in Glomdoring for my Lusternian career, I admire his order and his character concept.
In any event, I wouldn't view any of these posts as an attack on Magnagora. I'd look at it as criticism where Magnagora can improve and from what I've heard from others as well as read in this thread, it always seems to be sourced back to a handful of people.
@Celina this here is some logic, which I know is incredibly uncommon in your rather tacky and useless lifesteal
- People are saying there is a problem in the org?
You ask the org
- The org is asked
They say they dont see this problem
- You look back at the source
The source apparently are individuals claiming these bursts of OOC exist, and have a history of generally attempting to trash talk this organization.
- Conclusion: There is no actual problem
Again, I will repeat: You see this problem, then ISSUE. It really isnt difficult, because apparently this magically invisible chats that have been occurring, are going under the radar.
When you get individuals that are literaly bottom barrel trolls like Celina to be not only backing something up, but actually defending it, then your case just dropped by 98% in legitmacy just there.
Again, the obvious: If there was a problem, the Admin would have gotten to it by now. There isnt a problem.
For those ttrying to trash talk, please go and find something more useless to do in your times rather than constantly dismissing an org that is doing quite fine if -more- fine than most others. It has went from childishness to harassment at this point, and this thread should just be locked by now.
If yours and Celina's posts werent literally for the pure reason of "it's this person, let's beat on him", then perhaps I would take your statements seriously, but you and her basically admit to responding to posts and even game statements on the literaly fact of "Lol, it's this guy!". You and her basically take the cup on trolling.
Again, the 'logical': Even though this thread wasnt stated on "talking OOC (though Othero accidently made it perceived that way)" people have actually stepped up (people who were burned in Magnagora and seem to take near every oppertunity to attack it) stating there has been some (i quote) "Blatant OOC talk" and "REAL OOC TALK', then again, -issue-. I dont know how many times I can say this.
Other than that, if the conversations in Magnagora are too casual for your RP, then simply go forth and try to find more engaging conversations, im sure you'll absolutely adore the ones in serenwilde and gaudiguch.
Finally, we are happy, we enjoy our org, if you do not, by all means, -look away-. We are doing fantastically well these days, and frankly your venom, is nothing but borderline harassment these days.
Please enjoy whatever RP you gain from your own little groups, we are enjoying our own.
Good day
Glom hates you. This was pretty much the exchange between Viravain and Celina:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=DjUOBVAbGhQ
(Edit: We don't really hate Celina though.)
A prime example: I don't even recall what started the discussion, but Shango said something to me and I pointed out that I deplore the concept of PKers being better than everyone else based solely on their ability to PK and that everyone has something to offer and that I don't believe might makes right. Someone could kill me, but it doesn't mean that I'm stupid or incapable of having input.' This led to him disagreeing with me and the next time I log in, I have a slew of messages from Munsia swearing at me and telling me she was going to drag the n'Lochli through the dirt and apparently attempted to ban family members from hunts or participating in things for the city. Then when I didn't respond, the messages kept coming about throwing down with me, etc.
That's a level of pettiness and irritation I'm not comfortable with.
I logged in after some random event, and see a huge discussion on CT about how we should convert Yarith, to which someone responded 'He'd just run back to Taevyn because he's a lapdog.' as well as some other comments.
While you can say 'but that's within the bounds of Magnagoran roleplay' and I don't disagree, it's uncomfortable for me because it's constant and petty. I have not -personally- encountered the same sort of attitude elsewhere. And it's the attitude that bothers me. These are things that bother -me- and make me not want to log in. While these are the only examples I can think of off the top of my head and aren't really relevant on their own, it's part of a larger problem for me and not one I want to be around.