Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited January 2016
Snoefaasia got intercepted by a particular admin I won't name many years back. Basically we all assumed it was a permanent fae once the quest was done (because it was permanent but we didn't know it was a bug), several reports went through/were blocked with snoefaasia factoring into the equation.
Eventually, after some discussion with the admin, found out snoefaasia was bugged. After explaining its value to wiccans and how it was being utilized, I was basically told that's too powerful/not intended and got it nerfed to shit and bug fixed at the same time.
Sorry about that.
edit: Unless something else was changed, snoefaasia just requires you to possess the skill in lowmagic for the additional effect. Not to actually have it up.
edit2: Tredian isn't entirely correct about Full. The difference between full and serpent is that serpent requires you to 1) not be prone and 2) not use any power. Serpent is awesome, but it serves a different purpose than full. You can't be stupid and rely on serpent to get you out (though sometimes it does). You can absolutely make stupid plays and use full to save your ass the majority of the time. If a group fight is supposed to be about tactics, positioning, and planning, a skill like full is a get out of jail free card. Trueheal is in the same boat. When you fight these skills you have to be that much better than the opposition. You are going to target these people knowing they will survive and come back, and you have to maintain the advantage through that. You have to eliminate them twice or more. Where as when you are fighting Gaudiguch or Glomdoring, you just have to take them out once.
In a Celest/Seren vs Glom/Mag fight, Celest/Seren should win 100% of the time assuming equal skill and numbers. Glom/Mag have to pick targets taking into account trueheal and full, and that time spent on these targets can very easily become time wasted while targets on your side are eliminated. Maybe Kelly is the most dangerous target, but you can't target her first because she can trueheal out of anything you throw at her, so you take the second or third or fourth most dangerous target while your best players are targeted without a prismatic to save them. Celest/Seren can start at the top and work their way down the priority list with no similar concern.
This is why people want full addressed first. It's just a powerhouse.
Hi! I've been trying to plan for reports to solve some of our current issues (lack of pressure, lack of flexibility, lack of kill route etc.) but all this has come up so I'll be bringing this to An'taithe so other MDs can comment and hopefully, we could develop a series of proposals in the form of monthly (if there is something quicker when we're ready, that'd be nice) reports.
Firstly, the kill method. Moondancers are, I think, the most tertiary-based guardian class because you cannot find a direct kill route within Moon. All the old guardians (I don't think I should be including Illuminati/Researchers in this because..they're different) had some sort of mana kill plus others. SDs recently got shadowtwist, enabling even non trans healers to get toad kills. MDs fell behind because although we have "boring" tertiary-focused Hexen/Astro kill methods, they CAN work, and with the succumb/lash switch, MD 1v1 was improved at the expense of group combat potential. Healer MDs were not so lucky. Eodh's strategy not requiring the use of a sleep enchant is indeed doable but isn't really that repeatable (which is what the strategy 'requires'). If it fails you'll have to retime through one fae cycle, and then do the wane-sleep-wane thing again on another fae cycle. Its a big survival requirement for healer MDs (and timing practice) and without hexes to resleep target is prone to escape easier. Also, the wane-sleep-wane is only possible with at least 2/4 eq buff, just info. There are other healer MD tactics which make use of pookaing sip bloodshot (which hopefully will be removed soon), or aurawarp/bedevil aff pressure but there isn't really a lot of pressure the auras could work with. If MD consensus agree that we need a new kill method, we'll have to think of mechanics that would make use of or meld better with tertiaries other than healing (i honestly think the SD last twist drain is a bit powerful, hexes should be needed to lock it but the way it is they're not so necessary). Should the pooka metawake+hexes sleep go away? Do we want a room-based thing? How many routes could we have? How do the tertiaries do well to support such a kill method? How does this mix to our being a 'defensive' class?
Next, heal/escape skill. SDs have flight, nihilists ghost/siphon, celestines trueheal+light, and MDs have Full. Originally, Full cures one more aff than Green at same powercost EXCEPT paralyse. This means MDs still have to make use of Green in fights with greenlocks such as monk stuff. The request to add paralysis to this resulted in addition instead of a 5 second prismatic, giving Full another niche in combat: a very flexible skill for healing/escaping. Half the time I use Full, I would've used Serpent if I had it, and rightly, it won't save you always where Serpent can. In terms of 'combat reset', an MD making use of Full is a dying MD as its current power cost already disable potential toad strategy. It also doesn't really cure wounds, or heal h/m/e, and doesn't it reset on the other side as well. In group, its used as extending meat shield survival time (for escape too if not in a pit full of crazy peeps). Sure after they Full they can call meteors, but if you're giving enough pressure you should'nt really be afraid of that in 1v1, and they can't really keep you there effectively with shafts compared to those with carcer. Honestly, I'd rather it go back to its original state with curing paralysis please (we always could dance with broken legs right? it can be like the urge to dance is so powerful it cures it) but I guess we could think about it too.
Last, flexibility. More than one way to achieve a toadcurse or that alternate kill method would be nice. All your ideas and input are really helpful, maybe if we get something up will be posting it all here for your constructive criticism Thanks!
So, Twist was given because Shadowdancers lost Choke. Theoretically, Healer MD's are capable of killing too, it's just easier with a Hexen, as you said. Same with Shadowdancer. I wouldn't compare Flight, Ghost, and Trueheal with Full. Full is borderline with Trueheal, but the fact of the matter is that when Trueheal is used, the Sacraments user generally has to reset their entire offense. You're not really limited in that regard if you use Full once. Moon has other utility that the others don't have, so that's why I don't think it's good to use those abilities as a comparison.
The last Shadow Twist needs to be powerful. It gets rid of the shadow automatically and is meant to be a large burst. It takes around 7p to get to that point too with all the twists. For 7p, I would expect a reasonably powerful effect. Remember, Shadowdancers did trade Choke away for Twist. For those reasons, they should get something fair in return.
As for alternatives to Toadcurse, someone said earlier that Wiccans probably aren't going to get it. However, you could do ideas that make damage a more viable route for Moondancer.
I do think they're deserving of attention since Moondancers haven't really gotten anything impactful outside of the Full changes for ages. I guess the Shine change is helpful, but that was really just making Shine as powerful as it was before the change. I'm wary about carbon copying skills, but there's going to be some copying if we can't create any new affs. Administration will need to decide if carbon copying is a lesser evil than no new affs. Personally, I've never viewed affs as the problem in Lusternia. It's the crazy amount of stuff that we keep adding either as artifacts or promotions.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
It should be noted that healer SDs aren't viable at the top tier, which is where you have to balance around. They are in the mid or high tiers where people don't update their sipping priorities on the fly or how to handle aeon strats, but against someone who knows the counters (@silvanus could always counter my twists every single time), a healer isn't going to kill you.
Unless you have Shuck. Shuck can change the game. Gosh I miss Shuck.
I haven't had any ideas for this thread yet but I will say I've always felt power to a big fight reseter. Could we not raise the power to full again if someone thinks of a good idea? 5 or 6p this time.
Also jinx is also pretty effective right and I imagine even more so once focus is gone. Could we play on that instead of sleep.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I can speak for anyone else, but I would say so long as you have a prismatic that can be used while locked down/prone/whatever, I'm not thrilled with buffing offense. It's just too good to have that kind of escape mechanism that has literally no counter.
We're trying to steer moondancer novices -away- from mudsexing.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
It really is pretty great to have outside help for ideas and criticism and such before some things come to the drawing board. With all the restrictions on any new idea, you can kinda get a sense of the frustration many of our envoys had over the years, just by reading this thread. I hope more ideas keep coming, to help out the current generation of MDs figure something out.
Except for those champs we've had in the past who like the skills for their griefability, I guess. We're good for surviving long enough to irritate, even if we're not great at actually killing. That's kind of a thing I, personally, would like to see go. Those champs don't tend to fit in well with the rest of the guild.
Also, we need to get away from sleep, one way or another. Nobody likes it, and it's pretty dumb that a skillset (dreamweaving) can make somebody completely immune to the only thing we can do.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
It really is pretty great to have outside help for ideas and criticism and such before some things come to the drawing board. With all the restrictions on any new idea, you can kinda get a sense of the frustration many of our envoys had over the years, just by reading this thread. I hope more ideas keep coming, to help out the current generation of MDs figure something out.
Except for those champs we've had in the past who like the skills for their griefability, I guess. We're good for surviving long enough to irritate, even if we're not great at actually killing. That's kind of a thing I, personally, would like to see go. Those champs don't tend to fit in well with the rest of the guild.
Also, we need to get away from sleep, one way or another. Nobody likes it, and it's pretty dumb that a skillset (dreamweaving) can make somebody completely immune to the only thing we can do.
I have discovered that Celestines are immune to it too, actually. You can order a Celestine to turn metawake off, but Stigmata will wake them up if they have any mana loss whatsoever (which they will if you're going for the toadcurse), so they can just wake up again from the damage from Stigmata.
Use a poteen pot and disloyalty to give yourself a cloud of cute animals that wake you up. Be a wiccan, leprechauns wake you up when they're disloyal too.
Yup, there are many counters to the sleeplock and more and more people are discovering them. I don't really see the need for this one to go (primarily pooka metawake off), not especially before we get an alternative to getting a toad, but Hexen SDs would be alright even if there are any who use the sleeplocks. Hexen MDs, depending on what we get from our future proposals. But yes, skill wise, Healers, Celestines and Dreamweavers are immune to it, but essentially everyone could be.
Comments
So, Twist was given because Shadowdancers lost Choke. Theoretically, Healer MD's are capable of killing too, it's just easier with a Hexen, as you said. Same with Shadowdancer. I wouldn't compare Flight, Ghost, and Trueheal with Full. Full is borderline with Trueheal, but the fact of the matter is that when Trueheal is used, the Sacraments user generally has to reset their entire offense. You're not really limited in that regard if you use Full once. Moon has other utility that the others don't have, so that's why I don't think it's good to use those abilities as a comparison.
The last Shadow Twist needs to be powerful. It gets rid of the shadow automatically and is meant to be a large burst. It takes around 7p to get to that point too with all the twists. For 7p, I would expect a reasonably powerful effect. Remember, Shadowdancers did trade Choke away for Twist. For those reasons, they should get something fair in return.
As for alternatives to Toadcurse, someone said earlier that Wiccans probably aren't going to get it. However, you could do ideas that make damage a more viable route for Moondancer.
I do think they're deserving of attention since Moondancers haven't really gotten anything impactful outside of the Full changes for ages. I guess the Shine change is helpful, but that was really just making Shine as powerful as it was before the change. I'm wary about carbon copying skills, but there's going to be some copying if we can't create any new affs. Administration will need to decide if carbon copying is a lesser evil than no new affs. Personally, I've never viewed affs as the problem in Lusternia. It's the crazy amount of stuff that we keep adding either as artifacts or promotions.
Also jinx is also pretty effective right and I imagine even more so once focus is gone. Could we play on that instead of sleep.
I have discovered that Celestines are immune to it too, actually. You can order a Celestine to turn metawake off, but Stigmata will wake them up if they have any mana loss whatsoever (which they will if you're going for the toadcurse), so they can just wake up again from the damage from Stigmata.