We can't modify a single skillset without also buffing another class that doesn't need it.
There is a very narrow range you can alter without buffing anyone else. There are three skills that only Moondancers get - Maiden, Mother, Crone. If you could come up with an idea to alter those somehow. Do you really need the maiden defenses? Could it do something else?
Could they be changed to be internal switchable aspects that give you special abilities instead of summonable ents?
Maiden's defenses are the equiv. of benediction. You could probably change the utility that Maiden gives to be periodically given while standing in moonlight or something. You can already order the Maiden to follow someone else in order for them to gain the benefit of Maidens stuff as well. Don't really mind it being just moved over to something in Moon. Maiden should probably be a somewhat active contributor to the Moondancer's offense in some form. Two of the three Moondancer ents probably don't need to be defensive/utility oriented given that the Moondancer already has a ton of utility.
The Cabalists in Aetolia have a similiar kill method with numerology (by similiar, it's pretty much the same).
Not opposed to it generally, but if you're sticking the sleeplock to stick the affs, you're probably just better off draining mana and toadcursing rather than just building for this.
Yeah. It's something pretty much similar to Tweak/Disturb in Numerology in Aetolia. Part of the problem is that there are only so many mechanics you can have without basically making something a carbon copy of someone else's stuff at this point or making them very similar.
That was the first suggestion I had and the quickest. Have some other stuff I'm thinking of too.
probably silly but I've been thinking what if we could like... put someone in a state where we burst afflictions on them.
Perhaps Maiden or a Moon ability would induce a manic state (maybe Maidens feed them "special" fae snacks), while in this state any mental afflictions would increase the targets lunacy.
After it's built up enough we could have an instant kill.
But yeah, similarities to temoraryinsanity and it would be two afflictions, though I'm not sure how reasonable or necessarily fair "no new affs" is.
"No new affs" is a condition of the overhaul, @Saran. Estarra's even said before she doesn't feel it necessary for wiccans to have a second insta, but since then SDs have twist, so who knows how the Furies would even take this? This thread is an exercise in player creativity and inspiration.
For another idea, what if maiden were changed entirely, and becomes a permanent member of the witch's entourage? Instead of the defs she provides now, for 2 power she can use the Power of Youth to inspire/energize the entire Fae entourage to attack immediately, resetting their timers in the process. And/or she buffs the Fae for a short time, so they have a lot more health and aren't so simply taken out of the picture?
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Not every new class or kill condition needs a new class specific affliction. See: shadowtwist
I think there is some miscommunication, they're saying 'no new affs added the game', not 'don't give Moondancers affs they don't currently have the ability to give.'
And I was thinking of something to do with temporary insanity myself, because lunacy, but...that's kinda a Gaudi thing right? Do we want to branch it out more?
tempinsanity and timewarp is a fickle thing and risky idea because we're not really sure what's going on with it post overhaul. A lot is up in the air still in regards to those so I wouldn't bank on them.
If focus goes (which has been talked about lots) then tempinsanity/timewarp will need addressing bigtime
Twist isn't an insta. It's a mana drain with affs attached, the final twist being the strongest mana drain. SD still needs to toad or damage someone down to kill them.
I think there is some miscommunication, they're saying 'no new affs added the game', not 'don't give Moondancers affs they don't currently have the ability to give.'
And I was thinking of something to do with temporary insanity myself, because lunacy, but...that's kinda a Gaudi thing right? Do we want to branch it out more?
Yeah, I just find the "no new affs" restrictive. Like, if we used tempinsanity because we wanted something to show lunacy well then it's something that's shared with Gaudi, which means they would need to balance changes to it against MD and vice versa.
For branching out more... tbh, pretty tired right now but it seems like the general commentary is that it shouldn't be a new affliction nor instakill, most likely it should help work towards sticking succumb long enough to get them into toad range (I believe MD's aren't supposed to have active mana drains) but also be distinct from sleep, something that if the sleep combo falls apart we can try the other route. And given the comments about killing ents, likely something that doesn't rely on a pooka, at the least, and something that is unique when compared to the other guilds.
When I'm more awake I might try poking some of the other moonies cause like... a thread about them should probably at least have some input from the envoy/champ. Though, I suppose another consideration would be that it's not necessarily just a mechanical solution that's needed here. The words bland and boring are the ones sticking out to me, so I guess I'm really wondering if someone has an idea that... fits into all of the above while also being fun and engaging.
There's the Nihilist report to change how thrall a work, and one of the suggestions is to make them on their own balance like the homonculus. I think that could be a half way decent change for MDs without adding in a new affliction.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
@Saran Moondancers got Succumb as a result of people complaining about Choke + Succumb. The Admins went ahead and switched succumb and lash.
Regarding the whole 'no new affs thing', it may look restrictive, but it's there for a reason: lessen the feature creep. We had to go through this long Overhaul process precisely because over the years people kept suggesting and adding in new affs all over the place, until we had a very bloated combat game. If you want a new mechanic for Moondancer, use the current Overhaul affs that we have now.
Making ent balances akin to homunculus is an interesting idea. Although it's my personal belief sleeplocks should be on the way out (along with hunger and drunkenness attrition mechanics), just being able to reliably stick a pixie hit would make wiccans less unwieldly.
@Eodh, I suppose my disagreement is with the label feature creep. Because feature creep really is about unnecessary changes, not just afflictions.
If one of the reasons that Moondancers are considered boring is because they lack the complexity of other classes, then adding an affliction or mechanic just to them to bring them in line with the average complexity of classes isn't feature creep.
On the flip side, adding something to a class that is already sufficiently complex and in a good spot would be feature creep regardless of whether or not its an affliction.
Looking at the report (1407 I'm believe), I suppose the question is how to you transfer something that is designed to work on a single entity to a group such as the fae?
Like, would I order my pooka to hit, then order my pixie, banshee, and crone to hit after it took control?
I suppose I feel like it adds four extra commands to enter and if I can't use them off balance for crone and banshee this would just mean they're hitting less often. And I guess... does it just make it easier to do the things that are described as boring?
If we do add something new (or as @riluna suggested overthink the whole thing) I would highly vote for having something that's not a remote carbon copy. No new afflictions does not really hinder us there, I think the shadowdance twist really is an excellent example of it. It's unique in it's function, it uses stuff that's already there and it adds an interesting new mechanic.
@Aeldra, whether it hinders us or not really depends.
If we just want an alternative to sleeplock then there are other locks that can be added in that shouldn't require new afflictions. But the play style for this could end up just being the same.
Some of the suggestions seem to be just making us better at doing what we're already doing (making it easier to time our attacks with the fae, making them harder to kill). Maybe it's just me but that doesn't really seem to alleviate the boredom of the method just make it easier.
So what do people actually suggest? Rather than just reiterating "no new affs" and "well we did it with twist" what can move us away from this current drudgery?
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
That's not really the definition of "feature creep." Feature creep is a high level term, it looks at everything in the game. The key word is "creep," you add a little here that seems innocuous, a little there, and suddenly the complexity of the game has crept forward with several new mechanics. They might be necessary on a case by case basis, but that's often how it "creeps" up on you.
Ultimately it's not up to anyone but the MDs to propose changes if they want a new kill condition or mechanic. Inevitably while you are coming up with ideas, others, such as the envoys are going to remind you of the limitations. That the need for a change is not carte blanche. Sorry, not thrilling to hear, but you will because no one wants crazy pants MDs.
Instead of "lunacy" being a whole new affliction, maybe it's something the MD builds up during a fight and it fades when you're out of a fight. It works like power to enhance succumb or buff your damage. Maybe it doubles one damage occurance for 10 power and full lunacy to turn meteor into an insta. Think of it as you hit a command, enter into a lunar state for X amount of time and every type of attack (kind of like deathmark but without an affliction) builds it internally. You can release parts or full reserves of it to work within your existing mechanics.
Disclaimer: sleep locks and full have to go before any envoy (save maybe some with dubious envoy ethics) will sign off on it.
That said, the only new afflictions that have been added while I've been playing are.... allergies, temporary insanity/timewarp, and... I think that's it? The feature creep had nothing to do with new afflictions, and had only a little to do with envoy reports. The majority was from new limited artifacts, the release of new skillsets (which almost always received only nerfs afterwards), new quest rewards, and a maturing player base developing better curing/offenses.
Yeeeah. Feature creep in Lusternia has nothing to do with afflictions. Let's try:
Curios Ikons New artifacts/Promotion artifacts Quest Rewards Wildewood/Wyrdenwood/Chemantics
Whatever else I missed, let me know. The game has become more complicated than when I was playing to the point where I found it easier to start a new player rather than just adjust Nienla.
I think that something that moves away from sleep lock ( I don't think they are all that great, albeit nasty ) towards something that focuses more on succumb would generally interesting.
Just a random idea I had, was something like this: everytime you successfully succumb (doesn't need to be succumb, can be a new skill, just taking it for an example) someone without it being immediately cured, you charge a moon sphere that's circling you. Depending on how full that sphere is when you hurl it back at your target, it'll perform a different set of afflictions (maybe make the sphere an actually probeable item). Spheres should dissipate if you move or are moved from your location, but as long as you are there you don't need to use them against the same target (not sure how you make sure you don't precharge them from allies, needs to be taken into account). Just an example, while them all cause mana damage when they hit, a half full sphere could cause aeon, while a full sphere could cause recklessness and a three quarter sphere could cause blackout. So, determining on when you throw that thing you get different afflictions and different amount of mana damage on your target.
Very early stage idea, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
edit: the afflictions above are completely random, can be any random afflictions, I was only focused on the mechanic
Er, no @Celina. Feature creep is a software design term that references when unnecessary features slowly get tacked on during a project. Additions or modifications to a system may add bloat or complications, what makes them fall under this heading mostly comes down to the scope with feature creep pushing and expanding that.
Your suggestion for lunacy, it's interesting I just feel like.... it makes more sense as an affliction that only Moon would have access to. That said, a state we put ourselves into has the benefit of not being lost when the person were fighting dies which requires balancing around things like going into the state just before combat and charging it up with basic hits on allies so it's fully powered up when you hit the actual target, which is a consideration an affliction wouldn't require.
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It does sound an awful lot like momentum. Let's avoid that again, shall we?
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Hi! I've been trying to plan for reports to solve some of our current issues (lack of pressure, lack of flexibility, lack of kill route etc.) but all this has come up so I'll be bringing this to An'taithe so other MDs can comment and hopefully, we could develop a series of proposals in the form of monthly (if there is something quicker when we're ready, that'd be nice) reports.
Firstly, the kill method. Moondancers are, I think, the most tertiary-based guardian class because you cannot find a direct kill route within Moon. All the old guardians (I don't think I should be including Illuminati/Researchers in this because..they're different) had some sort of mana kill plus others. SDs recently got shadowtwist, enabling even non trans healers to get toad kills. MDs fell behind because although we have "boring" tertiary-focused Hexen/Astro kill methods, they CAN work, and with the succumb/lash switch, MD 1v1 was improved at the expense of group combat potential. Healer MDs were not so lucky. Eodh's strategy not requiring the use of a sleep enchant is indeed doable but isn't really that repeatable (which is what the strategy 'requires'). If it fails you'll have to retime through one fae cycle, and then do the wane-sleep-wane thing again on another fae cycle. Its a big survival requirement for healer MDs (and timing practice) and without hexes to resleep target is prone to escape easier. Also, the wane-sleep-wane is only possible with at least 2/4 eq buff, just info. There are other healer MD tactics which make use of pookaing sip bloodshot (which hopefully will be removed soon), or aurawarp/bedevil aff pressure but there isn't really a lot of pressure the auras could work with. If MD consensus agree that we need a new kill method, we'll have to think of mechanics that would make use of or meld better with tertiaries other than healing (i honestly think the SD last twist drain is a bit powerful, hexes should be needed to lock it but the way it is they're not so necessary). Should the pooka metawake+hexes sleep go away? Do we want a room-based thing? How many routes could we have? How do the tertiaries do well to support such a kill method? How does this mix to our being a 'defensive' class?
Next, heal/escape skill. SDs have flight, nihilists ghost/siphon, celestines trueheal+light, and MDs have Full. Originally, Full cures one more aff than Green at same powercost EXCEPT paralyse. This means MDs still have to make use of Green in fights with greenlocks such as monk stuff. The request to add paralysis to this resulted in addition instead of a 5 second prismatic, giving Full another niche in combat: a very flexible skill for healing/escaping. Half the time I use Full, I would've used Serpent if I had it, and rightly, it won't save you always where Serpent can. In terms of 'combat reset', an MD making use of Full is a dying MD as its current power cost already disable potential toad strategy. It also doesn't really cure wounds, or heal h/m/e, and doesn't it reset on the other side as well. In group, its used as extending meat shield survival time (for escape too if not in a pit full of crazy peeps). Sure after they Full they can call meteors, but if you're giving enough pressure you should'nt really be afraid of that in 1v1, and they can't really keep you there effectively with shafts compared to those with carcer. Honestly, I'd rather it go back to its original state with curing paralysis please (we always could dance with broken legs right? it can be like the urge to dance is so powerful it cures it) but I guess we could think about it too.
Last, flexibility. More than one way to achieve a toadcurse or that alternate kill method would be nice. All your ideas and input are really helpful, maybe if we get something up will be posting it all here for your constructive criticism Thanks!
Ooh @Tredian, Rage... do we really use it any more?
Also still voting for trying to make Snoefaasia permanent/vastly easier to access if you have the honours line already so that we can more reliably factor that into our strategies.
Snoefaasia isn't going to happen. Last time we tried to envoy it (to make it last longer) it got solution 4'd into a huge nerf so we "don't feel like we need it anymore". Snoefaasia is supposed to be a cutesie perk, and nothing more.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
Ooh @Tredian, Rage... do we really use it any more?
Also still voting for trying to make Snoefaasia permanent/vastly easier to access if you have the honours line already so that we can more reliably factor that into our strategies.
Hehe, we don't. We'd want something that requires just moonchilde, and works when everyone is in the room with the opponents to make full use of fae. 5 MDs/SDs is just too big a requires for the effect it does now.
Its been repeatedly said that quest fae are going to be temporary. It needs 6p to fully make use of though (Lowmagic Winter plus Snoefaasia effect), but the cold resist is good. But easier to access with honours line sounds good!
Comments
Maiden's defenses are the equiv. of benediction. You could probably change the utility that Maiden gives to be periodically given while standing in moonlight or something. You can already order the Maiden to follow someone else in order for them to gain the benefit of Maidens stuff as well. Don't really mind it being just moved over to something in Moon. Maiden should probably be a somewhat active contributor to the Moondancer's offense in some form. Two of the three Moondancer ents probably don't need to be defensive/utility oriented given that the Moondancer already has a ton of utility.
That was the first suggestion I had and the quickest. Have some other stuff I'm thinking of too.
And I was thinking of something to do with temporary insanity myself, because lunacy, but...that's kinda a Gaudi thing right? Do we want to branch it out more?
Curios
Ikons
New artifacts/Promotion artifacts
Quest Rewards
Wildewood/Wyrdenwood/Chemantics
Whatever else I missed, let me know. The game has become more complicated than when I was playing to the point where I found it easier to start a new player rather than just adjust Nienla.
Just a random idea I had, was something like this: everytime you successfully succumb (doesn't need to be succumb, can be a new skill, just taking it for an example) someone without it being immediately cured, you charge a moon sphere that's circling you. Depending on how full that sphere is when you hurl it back at your target, it'll perform a different set of afflictions (maybe make the sphere an actually probeable item). Spheres should dissipate if you move or are moved from your location, but as long as you are there you don't need to use them against the same target (not sure how you make sure you don't precharge them from allies, needs to be taken into account). Just an example, while them all cause mana damage when they hit, a half full sphere could cause aeon, while a full sphere could cause recklessness and a three quarter sphere could cause blackout. So, determining on when you throw that thing you get different afflictions and different amount of mana damage on your target.
Very early stage idea, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
edit: the afflictions above are completely random, can be any random afflictions, I was only focused on the mechanic
Firstly, the kill method. Moondancers are, I think, the most tertiary-based guardian class because you cannot find a direct kill route within Moon. All the old guardians (I don't think I should be including Illuminati/Researchers in this because..they're different) had some sort of mana kill plus others. SDs recently got shadowtwist, enabling even non trans healers to get toad kills. MDs fell behind because although we have "boring" tertiary-focused Hexen/Astro kill methods, they CAN work, and with the succumb/lash switch, MD 1v1 was improved at the expense of group combat potential. Healer MDs were not so lucky. Eodh's strategy not requiring the use of a sleep enchant is indeed doable but isn't really that repeatable (which is what the strategy 'requires'). If it fails you'll have to retime through one fae cycle, and then do the wane-sleep-wane thing again on another fae cycle. Its a big survival requirement for healer MDs (and timing practice) and without hexes to resleep target is prone to escape easier. Also, the wane-sleep-wane is only possible with at least 2/4 eq buff, just info. There are other healer MD tactics which make use of pookaing sip bloodshot (which hopefully will be removed soon), or aurawarp/bedevil aff pressure but there isn't really a lot of pressure the auras could work with. If MD consensus agree that we need a new kill method, we'll have to think of mechanics that would make use of or meld better with tertiaries other than healing (i honestly think the SD last twist drain is a bit powerful, hexes should be needed to lock it but the way it is they're not so necessary). Should the pooka metawake+hexes sleep go away? Do we want a room-based thing? How many routes could we have? How do the tertiaries do well to support such a kill method? How does this mix to our being a 'defensive' class?
Next, heal/escape skill. SDs have flight, nihilists ghost/siphon, celestines trueheal+light, and MDs have Full. Originally, Full cures one more aff than Green at same powercost EXCEPT paralyse. This means MDs still have to make use of Green in fights with greenlocks such as monk stuff. The request to add paralysis to this resulted in addition instead of a 5 second prismatic, giving Full another niche in combat: a very flexible skill for healing/escaping. Half the time I use Full, I would've used Serpent if I had it, and rightly, it won't save you always where Serpent can. In terms of 'combat reset', an MD making use of Full is a dying MD as its current power cost already disable potential toad strategy. It also doesn't really cure wounds, or heal h/m/e, and doesn't it reset on the other side as well. In group, its used as extending meat shield survival time (for escape too if not in a pit full of crazy peeps). Sure after they Full they can call meteors, but if you're giving enough pressure you should'nt really be afraid of that in 1v1, and they can't really keep you there effectively with shafts compared to those with carcer. Honestly, I'd rather it go back to its original state with curing paralysis please (we always could dance with broken legs right? it can be like the urge to dance is so powerful it cures it) but I guess we could think about it too.
Last, flexibility. More than one way to achieve a toadcurse or that alternate kill method would be nice. All your ideas and input are really helpful, maybe if we get something up will be posting it all here for your constructive criticism
Also still voting for trying to make Snoefaasia permanent/vastly easier to access if you have the honours line already so that we can more reliably factor that into our strategies.
Its been repeatedly said that quest fae are going to be temporary. It needs 6p to fully make use of though (Lowmagic Winter plus Snoefaasia effect), but the cold resist is good. But easier to access with honours line sounds good!