This replaces the current dreamjacking mechanics, and currently proposed dreamjacking changes. Players travel to the Citadel of the Circle of the Dreaming and engage in a struggle for supremacy over dreaming, as the Deep Ones themselves do. Stylistically, each duelist is using their ego to control unformed dreamstuff, inhabiting a proto-high-god persona. Eventually, you gain enough of an upper hand to take total control and 'ascend' to master of the dream, winning the fight. Numbers and balances would need working on.
Dreamjack -
Dreamjacking is a consensual non-combat alternative to dueling. A dreamweaver may challenge another player, that player has a few seconds to respond. A Dreamweaver can also facilitate a dreamjacking between two non-dreamweavers. Once the challenged party accepts, both are transported into the dream realm, to a specially built dueling room. Most commands are suppressed in this room. After a short delay, the battle begins. Each player uses the following syntaxes to attempt to wrest control of an ongoing dream. Once the dream is fully under the control of one of the players, the duel ends and both players are returned to the corporeal. Dreamweavers get an ego vitals boost while performing in a dreamjacking.
The commands are:
Shift
Shift the dream, causing strain to your opponent's ego
Control
Exert control to stabilize your portion of the dream. Costs ego, but gives a defense that reduces incoming shifts.
Lure
Costs ego to create a defense. The first time the opponent shifts (attacks) you, the damage is reflected onto them, consuming the defense.
Twist
Twist the dream sideways, sidestepping your opponent's control or lure. Removes the control defense.
Stalk
Costs ego, creates a defense that deals large damage after a delay, expending itself.
Batter
Costs ego to black out the opponent briefly.
Ascend
Grasp at power and ascend to High God-dom of Nirvana, even if for just a moment. Costs a big chunk of ego, but you win if your opponent is under 50% ego.
Probe
Evaluate your opponent's current ego level and discover any defenses they have. Does take eq.
Consolidate
Draw your scattered dreamstuff to yourself. Channel to regain ego
Awaken
Flee the dreamrealm, forfeiting the dreamjacking. Takes a long channel.
Pros - this is way less messier, and is still a really cool addition to Nirvana. Later on, cool additions to it could be made. For instance, what if you could do some kind of group version? What if the Circle of Dreaming could be challenged, albeit at a severe handicap for the dreamweaver? It would be awesome if dreamweavers could use dreamjacking to win stewardship (from the Circle) over parts of Nirvana, too.
Cons - This removes the forced 1v1 aspect that Estarra said she wanted to keep.
The current status quo isn't that you get sucked into Nirvana no matter what you do. You actually have a quite easy and obtainable way to prevent it 100%. You yourself have already stated exactly how to do this.
Throw a 3rd person message down on link and dreamjack and maybe that's ok. You seem to think that people will know when they are being linked to, when I don't remember that there is a 2nd/3rd person line for linking to begin with. Also, make it so leaving the room during the potential dreamjacking stops it as well. It is quite possible that you are unable to get into a ship, or another area due to the situation.
None of these address your original complaint either. It's still quite possible to dreamjack someone, play keepaway until they try to leave and run in and gank them, leaving a situation that you specifically made a report and stated as a problem. This is crazy.
For your version of tower to be acceptable - you need to 1) make phantomspheres not castable in Nirvana and 2) make allergies not work in Nirvana or give allergies a cure and 3) Make it so Pollute/Maelstrom/Fury/the other ones also break the tower, allowing someone to leave. As long as these things exist, Tower is too powerful, which includes it's current incarnation as it exists now. It's too much to have a skill that locks someone into a melded room with no means of escape.
The current status quo isn't that you get sucked into Nirvana no matter what you do. You actually have a quite easy and obtainable way to prevent it 100%. You yourself have already stated exactly how to do this.
Me:
Incorrect. You will get sucked into Nirvana under the status quo no matter what, repeatedly. I myself have already stated exactly how to do this. The workaround is easily work-aroundable. Turns out I've tested it and proven it 'in the wild'.
Throw a 3rd person message down on link and dreamjack and maybe that's ok. You seem to think that people will know when they are being linked to, when I don't remember that there is a 2nd/3rd person line for linking to begin with. Also, make it so leaving the room during the potential dreamjacking stops it as well. It is quite possible that you are unable to get into a ship, or another area due to the situation.
Me:
No third person message for link, the point is that you won't know when you're being linked to - there isn't a second person message either. I don't understand what that has to do with anything, you still have the full duration of time to stop getting dreamjacked. Dreamjacking can have a third person message, it doesn't matter much. If you absolutely need a third person message, something has gone dramatically wrong with your communication. No to leaving the room breaking a dreamjacking, it's already really easy to break the dreamjacking as is. Seriously. INVOKE SEVER <person>. I'm even totally okay with the dreamjacking second person message including the name of the dreamweaver. If you're in a situation where you 1) have no group, 2) can't escape the area for even a second or two, 3) can't use any sever skill yourself, 4) don't know any of the other ways to break a link, and 5) are incapable of harming the dreamweaver's body you've done goofed bad. You deserve to go to Nirvana to fight in a meld. There are multiple ways to break a link. Use one, you have ~20s.
None of these address your original complaint either. It's still quite possible to dreamjack someone, play keepaway until they try to leave and run in and gank them, leaving a situation that you specifically made a report and stated as a problem. This is crazy.
Me:
It absolutely does solve the problem, and you're also incorrect. You should not get pulled into Nirvana, therefore all issues with fight avoidance and easy maze will in Nirvana are negated. The timer is as long (longer, in fact) than many instakills, and even if it's dangerous to be in Nirvana, it's a damn sight better than being dead. If your group can't save you over the course of 12-24 seconds, you deserve to get stuck in Nirvana. I did forget to include the length of the channel, but it should be about 9 seconds. That said, with the cost reduction on WAKE FORCE, the dreamweaver needs to come into the room and nightmare (drain ego) on you ~2 times, recover balance and eternalsleep you - assuming they have the whopping 8p required. That will barely squeak in under the time limit if they arrive just as you're starting it, if you have 8000 ego or less. They will need to already have been engaged with you to get you to the kill range of eternalsleep over the course of the channel.
For your version of tower to be acceptable - you need to 1) make phantomspheres not castable in Nirvana and 2) make allergies not work in Nirvana or give allergies a cure and 3) Make it so Pollute/Maelstrom/Fury/the other ones also break the tower, allowing someone to leave. As long as these things exist, Tower is too powerful, which includes it's current incarnation as it exists now. It's too much to have a skill that locks someone into a melded room with no means of escape.
Me:
First, see the above comment: don't get trapped in Nirvana. The point of tower is to force you to actually fight the melder in Nirvana such that if you're foolish enough to allow yourself to be taken there you can't just avoid the user's demesne entirely. No matter what, the nature of Nirvana is going to mostly shaft people who get dreamjacked - no entourage does that for a host of classes.
1) Sure, I guess? I have no comment on phantomspheres, it seems like it would generally be easier to just... kill you.
2) No. Druids need a rework, but no. As I (myself) have stated before, druids won't kill people* in Nirvana, allergies or otherwise. This report won't do anything to change that all of the dreamweaver's prime tools for saplocking plain don't work in Nirvana. No sleep attacks, no beast = easy to cure on out. This might change if/when focus body goes away for people who do not precache, but given the curing mechanics I don't think that will be that big of an issue.
3) No. With the vitals reworks, you should not die to these.
*Who have functioning curing systems and don't intentionally fall on their sword to make a point.
Tower can be chopped back down to one room in Nirvana, the thought was that being stuck in a single room was a lot more punishing than being stuck in a small cluster of rooms. The 'trapped in a location with the caster' part isn't "my version". In the long run it doesn't matter, avoid fighting in Nirvana.
I see that you flat out ignored my second post detailing a potential alternative to dreamjacking. I like it better, but I think it will need a lot more player support to convince administration given that Estarra has said that she wants to keep being able to hold 1v1 Nirvana fights possible.
Because you inserted your comments in the middle of Sidd's, it is very difficult to tell who is speaking where (especially on the mobile version of forums).
What happens if I don't have a coltsfoot pipe and put any pipe handed to me into my bag? How are you going to 'suck me into' Nirvana then? If I can't relax insomnia with you on balance, you're not going to pull me into Nirvana. If there's some other strategy that you've developed, I'm willing to be there's a counter.
Groups fights are a whole other animal. You want people to stop what they are doing, and spam kether mutliplte times to stop a DW from jacking someone into Nirvana. In the middle of a fight. That is ridiculous. Your whole premise is that dreamjacking is soo hard to do, but you have spend multiple balances doing it, oh and you're the only one that sees it (second person message, no third-person message), so if you can't tell your buddies and you're hindered up, you are just SOL. Yes, if you're just standing around, you shouldn't get dreamjacked, but if you are in the middle of a brawl? That's why I suggested leaving the room prevent it as well.
It's entirely too powerful to force someone to fight in a meld with incurable afflictions (being able to sleep or otherwise, which you seem to be removing, so you don't seem to think they are that important for DW anyway) and/or strategies that require you to leave the meld. As long as those exist, this is too powerful, no matter how 'easy' you claim it is to avoid dreamjacking.
I ignored your second post because it's trying to introduce an entirely new mechanic that you've already said goes against Estarra's wishes. I really have no interest in that, and thus am not addressing it. I didn't even read it.
Avurekhos is hitting people for close to 10k. He hit me for 9k the other day. Good timing with meld, cudgel tick and fury (even more so with maelstrom/pollute) and you can definitely kill people 1v1 with these skills. I'm not sure how you think that changed with the vitals rework.
Pretty sure command bursting [give pipe/order smoke/dreamjack] beats a put pipe in pack trigger... Unless maybe you live inside the Lusternia server room.
I literally don't believe that a 10k unleash cudgel combo is possible. With physicaal defense on the low end (regular robes, no other resistance defs) , cutting buffs at moderate (average of 5), electric buffs on the high end (for the highest possible damage on the combo), my beast breath doing ~200 damage. I'll do ~6000 maximum damage to a target with an unleash, assuming they take no evasive manuvers. Sensitivity is not a possibility here. Provide logs, including bodyscans of the victim and caster please. Either something is going dramatically wrong or there is some major hyperbole here.
Making it so that if you change rooms dreamjacking stops (especially on top of the strong counters already suggested) essentially removes dreamjacking from the game. That's fine, but then we might as well just remove dreamjacking from the game, so that it's not a "But it's technically possible and really powerful, so let's make the rest of the skillset shit forever" scenario.
What is your suggestion on tower?
If tower is removed, how will the dreamweaver use their meld in Nirvana without the enemy just running away?
How do you suggest creating a 1v1 Nirvana dueling scenario that does not force a meld but encourages fighting in Nirvana?
Estarra said nothing about keeping dreamjacking, but rather that she wanted to keep the 1v1 dueling aspect. From what I'm hearing (and have said), I don't think there is... any support for that among players/envoys.
Regardless of popular support, I just don't think it's possible in a rigorously fair way. I think we're going to have to (assuming we leave dreamjacking in and make it not utterly limp) settle on forcing a close quarters fight in a meld but making dreamjacking hard (but not totally impossible), as my suggested solutions do. If the hardline position is "no ganking people to a meld under any circumstances", dreamjacking will have to go. That's fine, but we might as well... look at my alternate dreamjacking proposal.
That seems to be the only bone of contention. I have zero attachment to dreamjacking, I only object to leaving in something that will be perpetually moaned and bitched about (as demonstrated) while simontaneously being useless* in practice.
*Before the pedant storm (or more people call me mentally unstable or whatever), no as long as it mechanically works under some set of conditions, however absurd, it's not literally useless, and it literally does something. Come on now.
I take more than 6k from Av's furies, and I have fullplate (25% resist to physical) on top of my main resistances. Fury stings. There's a reason it is one of the two things he spams repeatedly in combat. There was one fight where I am pretty sure he spent 210p (his entire reserves) on Fury, recasting it immediately every time he got back to 10p. No sensitivity, just furious furies.
I take more than 6k from Av's furies, and I have fullplate (25% resist to physical) on top of my main resistances. Fury stings. There's a reason it is one of the two things he spams repeatedly in combat. There was one fight where I am pretty sure he spent 210p (his entire reserves) on Fury, recasting it immediately every time he got back to 10p. No sensitivity, just furious furies.
Really? I mean I knew he cast it but the skill always seemed kinda meh. Though Fury isn't his Cudgel. Which does electricity. While Fury, which he wasn't really talking, about does only cutting at the moment(though mistral or Silvanus was doing an envoy report to hopefully change fury damage to at least partially electro/poison).
Comments
Non-ganky Dreamjacking
The current status quo isn't that you get sucked into Nirvana no matter what you do. You actually have a quite easy and obtainable way to prevent it 100%. You yourself have already stated exactly how to do this.
Throw a 3rd person message down on link and dreamjack and maybe that's ok. You seem to think that people will know when they are being linked to, when I don't remember that there is a 2nd/3rd person line for linking to begin with. Also, make it so leaving the room during the potential dreamjacking stops it as well. It is quite possible that you are unable to get into a ship, or another area due to the situation.
None of these address your original complaint either. It's still quite possible to dreamjack someone, play keepaway until they try to leave and run in and gank them, leaving a situation that you specifically made a report and stated as a problem. This is crazy.
For your version of tower to be acceptable - you need to 1) make phantomspheres not castable in Nirvana and 2) make allergies not work in Nirvana or give allergies a cure and 3) Make it so Pollute/Maelstrom/Fury/the other ones also break the tower, allowing someone to leave. As long as these things exist, Tower is too powerful, which includes it's current incarnation as it exists now. It's too much to have a skill that locks someone into a melded room with no means of escape.
Throw a 3rd person message down on link and dreamjack and maybe that's ok. You seem to think that people will know when they are being linked to, when I don't remember that there is a 2nd/3rd person line for linking to begin with. Also, make it so leaving the room during the potential dreamjacking stops it as well. It is quite possible that you are unable to get into a ship, or another area due to the situation.
It absolutely does solve the problem, and you're also incorrect. You should not get pulled into Nirvana, therefore all issues with fight avoidance and easy maze will in Nirvana are negated. The timer is as long (longer, in fact) than many instakills, and even if it's dangerous to be in Nirvana, it's a damn sight better than being dead. If your group can't save you over the course of 12-24 seconds, you deserve to get stuck in Nirvana. I did forget to include the length of the channel, but it should be about 9 seconds. That said, with the cost reduction on WAKE FORCE, the dreamweaver needs to come into the room and nightmare (drain ego) on you ~2 times, recover balance and eternalsleep you - assuming they have the whopping 8p required. That will barely squeak in under the time limit if they arrive just as you're starting it, if you have 8000 ego or less. They will need to already have been engaged with you to get you to the kill range of eternalsleep over the course of the channel.
For your version of tower to be acceptable - you need to 1) make phantomspheres not castable in Nirvana and 2) make allergies not work in Nirvana or give allergies a cure and 3) Make it so Pollute/Maelstrom/Fury/the other ones also break the tower, allowing someone to leave. As long as these things exist, Tower is too powerful, which includes it's current incarnation as it exists now. It's too much to have a skill that locks someone into a melded room with no means of escape.
What happens if I don't have a coltsfoot pipe and put any pipe handed to me into my bag? How are you going to 'suck me into' Nirvana then? If I can't relax insomnia with you on balance, you're not going to pull me into Nirvana. If there's some other strategy that you've developed, I'm willing to be there's a counter.
Groups fights are a whole other animal. You want people to stop what they are doing, and spam kether mutliplte times to stop a DW from jacking someone into Nirvana. In the middle of a fight. That is ridiculous. Your whole premise is that dreamjacking is soo hard to do, but you have spend multiple balances doing it, oh and you're the only one that sees it (second person message, no third-person message), so if you can't tell your buddies and you're hindered up, you are just SOL. Yes, if you're just standing around, you shouldn't get dreamjacked, but if you are in the middle of a brawl? That's why I suggested leaving the room prevent it as well.
It's entirely too powerful to force someone to fight in a meld with incurable afflictions (being able to sleep or otherwise, which you seem to be removing, so you don't seem to think they are that important for DW anyway) and/or strategies that require you to leave the meld. As long as those exist, this is too powerful, no matter how 'easy' you claim it is to avoid dreamjacking.
I ignored your second post because it's trying to introduce an entirely new mechanic that you've already said goes against Estarra's wishes. I really have no interest in that, and thus am not addressing it. I didn't even read it.
Avurekhos is hitting people for close to 10k. He hit me for 9k the other day. Good timing with meld, cudgel tick and fury (even more so with maelstrom/pollute) and you can definitely kill people 1v1 with these skills. I'm not sure how you think that changed with the vitals rework.