It may be a 'argh you killed by wakabi' response, but it certainly not a 'I'm going to qq Lusternia because I was verbally berated' response which is what this turned into.
You're missing the point where this turned from simple consequences based on actions to incredibly toxic tells sent by indiviuduals and said individual is using the guise of 'consequences' to justify his tells.
Your continual pedantic efforts to not be wrong aren't really needed nor wanted. Yes @Xenthos you are right, chopping elders and the like come with consequences, they don't come with toxic, uncalled for tells that force someone who happens to be sensitive to that kind of thing to want to quit the game rather than toughen up and get even. Ok? Satisfied? Now drop it and focus on the real issue.
You're the one here who's decided to make it an argument between you and me, you know. So, clearly, you want this for some reason. Not sure why!
I've seen no point in this thread where it shifted from one to the other, they are part and parcel of the same discussion. The rage posts started in regards to the epic-quest griefing (as indicated). You can't just ignore part of the equation and sweep it under the rug because it can't be defended; the "real issue" here is that appropriate levels of response be observed by everyone. The parts that he was originally complaining about? Those are absolutely justified (though perhaps not by the people who were doing it). Lengthy abusive tells? Not justified at all, and @Enyalida already pointed out that those should've been ISSUE'd immediately. There is nobody here defending the legitimacy of those, and people involved in such should experience some Administrative response to indicate how distasteful that response is.
Ok, Enyalida - keep trying to enforce a point of view that pretty much everyone agrees with. That's why it's a non-issue.
Good on you, you can sweep the real issue under the carpet though.
... you're also doing exactly the same thing. You're trying to enforce a point of view that pretty much everyone agrees with. So is your point also a non-issue, in your mind? If not, why is it different?
Pray tell what the "real issue" is, o wise and effulgent Sidd. My first post I gave legitimate advice to Eodh. Then I realized how out of touch with reality he/she is and called them out on it.
The truth of the matter is that Hallifax doesn't need an excuse at all to fuck with the epic quest. You're trying to force-feed us a double standard of "roll over and don't make any sudden movements, Hallifax" and "come on Hallifax, give us some conflict for once! Lusternia is SO BORING RIGHT NOW THERE'S NOTHING TO DO WEH". Make up your mind!
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SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
You guys are missing the big picture here if you think it's about stopping the epic, which has been said -multiple times now-, is not what it's about.
IC Consequences are fine. Incredibly colourful tells that are long and abusive are not. Does anybody disagree with that?
I certainly don't disagree with that at all.
Regardless of how anyone feels about the situation, I think the best thing to do is to give @Eodh time to get some rest, step back and process things, then let them decide what they want to do. They may decide not to log into Lusternia again, which is a shame, but if that's best for their head space, then it's a good thing.
I'm concerned the current Tweets conversation is going to make the idea of coming back even more difficult for them, however.
I don't think anyone is actively trying to discourage anyone from playing Lusternia, but if that is the case, the proper thing to do is to ISSUE (as has been stated) so that the admin can take care of it. Conflict is good and healthy, but there are lines that get muddy and can feel personal; worse, there are hostile actions and tells that can only be interpreted as personal. From what I'm reading, that's what a lot of people are concerned about. And we should be concerned about that, because it's not good for the overall health of the game.
I didn't see Davos's tells, but it's my hope they aren't as bad as you're describing. If they are, however, I hope Eodh finds some recourse.
As for conflict, I think we all know that every provocative action has a reaction, and some tend to be more of a conflict avalanche than others. I don't see anyone here disputing that, nor do I see anyone disputing the fact that toxic tells and abusive behaviours ought to be issued.
So I'm frankly not sure what we're arguing about anymore. It feels like a lot of people justifying behaviours to one another and having disparate conversations.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
Congratulations! By order of Newt Blasterson, you've been named a Master of the Aetherways! 2015/12/09 23:54:29 - Pejat drained 2000000 power to raise Davos as a Vernal Ascendant. You use 80,000,000 of your divine essence. You gain BeauteousThought as a supernumerary power.
They probably are exactly as bad as described, which is why I do agree with the suggestion to ISSUE. I've not seen these ones, and I honestly do not want to. When things go that far, it is time to call in the Administration, stat. There's little to argue about on a player-level.
"'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in." -Synkarin's Lament.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited November 2015
Synkarin was not wrong about the focus.
Eodh did not complain about the retaliation, he complained about the escalation (ex. the tells). Xenthos interjecting to justify the retaliation that was never in dispute by Eodh, and not the escalation, which was called into question, was exactly as Synkarin said: missing the point.
The only thing Synkarin got wrong was arguing with Xenthos at all.
edit: His original post also wasn't rage. Annoyed maybe, but if that's rage to you, you need a new dictionary.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
1:40:46 Rivius tells you, "Psst. Why are you in the nomad camp." 11:40:54 You tell Serenguard Rivius Tarsuhl, "To kill Eodh and his wakabi." 11:45:24 You tell Serenguard Rivius Tarsuhl, "I got his Wakabi. Why were you doing it?" You tell Flesherd Eodh, "//I've no anger towards you or gaudiguch, but letting people do conflict quests without punishment is bad for the game and bad for Hallifax. I also had no idea that killing Wakabi would be a problem for you, you starting a second war is what gave me that information and had Serenwilde not actively been engaged in that already I would have left it go. You bring it on yourself when you start shit with everyone."
Aeldra feels griefed about her epic quest, @Maligorn makes a giant thread trying to change things
Eodh feels griefed and verbally berated to the point he qq'd the game, @Maligorn laughs and says 'consequences'
Keep on keeping on Maligorn, keeping it classy
Yeah, because Aeldra has been doing conflict quests recently and has consequences that need to be met. Synkarin, you're drawing parallels where they don't exist. It's pretty sad.
11:58:15 Eodh tells you, "((You haven't changed from the Morbo days. Village quests are one thing, Epics are quite another. Especially one as long and tedious as the Hand
See, that's where the ooc goes bad, and it's not even from Davos for once.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
3
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited November 2015
Disagree. Eodh tried to disengage the conversation, IC and OOC. Davos kept pushing. You push people's buttons, especially after they've told you "we get it," you deserve what you get.
1st try: Eodh tells you, "No thank you. War it is!"
Davos OOC mistells ( I assume )
2nd try: Eodh tells you, "((Yeah, we get it. Griefing on!))"
Davos keeps going OOCly. Davos even escalated the conversation OOCly instead of letting it drop. I would've been nasty too.
Aeldra feels griefed about her epic quest, @Maligorn makes a giant thread trying to change things
Eodh feels griefed and verbally berated to the point he qq'd the game, @Maligorn laughs and says 'consequences'
Keep on keeping on Maligorn, keeping it classy
Yeah, because Aeldra has been doing conflict quests recently and has consequences that need to be met. Synkarin, you're drawing parallels where they don't exist. It's pretty sad.
They certainly do exist, while the details may vary, the overall intent is the same. Condemning Mag for doing it while justifying Hallifax's actions is pretty telling and hypocritical.
Remember, I don't think killing the wakabi was a big deal, I think the associated tells are the real issue here.
So basically it's ok to bring up past alts in ooc tells if you keep using ooc tells?
I'll have to keep that in mind.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Aeldra feels griefed about her epic quest, @Maligorn makes a giant thread trying to change things
Eodh feels griefed and verbally berated to the point he qq'd the game, @Maligorn laughs and says 'consequences'
Keep on keeping on Maligorn, keeping it classy
Yeah, because Aeldra has been doing conflict quests recently and has consequences that need to be met. Synkarin, you're drawing parallels where they don't exist. It's pretty sad.
They certainly do exist, while the details may vary, the overall intent is the same. Condemning Mag for doing it while justifying Hallifax's actions is pretty telling and hypocritical.
Remember, I don't think killing the wakabi was a big deal, I think the associated tells are the real issue here.
While I generally agree with you, the only slightly offensive tells were ic. Ooc, Davos was generally polite and explained his actions. Eodh was the snarky one both icly and oocly.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Oh cut it out. That's a deliberate misrepresentation of what happened.
Eodh tells you, "((Yeah, we get it. Griefing on!))"
You tell Flesherd Eodh, "//You started that when you start organization conflict quests for the sake of honours lines. Don't put that on others for having reasonable reactions to your war-like action."
How about keeping it between characters first? Davos wanted to escalate it, so he got an escalation. Boo hoo.
You don't get to take issue with how people choose to respond to OOC escalations if you are the one who took it OOC and continued to exacerbate the character conflict into a personal one through OOC tells after the other party has expressed no interest in that escalation. You don't like that I brought up your alt? Tough shit Shirley, you started it. If Davos isn't going to bother with common courtesy, why should Eodh.
1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
Fits the bill pretty well, characters who engage in totem chopping guerrilla warfare are using intimidation and fear to try and cow one of the forests into submitting to their demands, however unreasonable. They are terrorists. It doesn't help that the big issue is that you can't predict where or when choppers will strike.
Aeldra feels griefed about her epic quest, @Maligorn makes a giant thread trying to change things
Eodh feels griefed and verbally berated to the point he qq'd the game, @Maligorn laughs and says 'consequences'
Keep on keeping on Maligorn, keeping it classy
Yeah, because Aeldra has been doing conflict quests recently and has consequences that need to be met. Synkarin, you're drawing parallels where they don't exist. It's pretty sad.
They certainly do exist, while the details may vary, the overall intent is the same. Condemning Mag for doing it while justifying Hallifax's actions is pretty telling and hypocritical.
Remember, I don't think killing the wakabi was a big deal, I think the associated tells are the real issue here.
Magnagora was griefing a noncom's epic quest badly and they should feel bad. Hallifax griefs Eodh, a combatant and contentious quest-doer, and I say "you should look into the gentleman's agreement about the Hand, else you're gonna have a bad time." My attitude is exactly the same as it was before. I don't like epic quest griefing, but when you hand over corpses of important families, chop down trees and kill the Rockholm king (none of which Aeldra even comes close to qualifying for), you should expect reprisal, but if you're sorry and meet some simple demands (I'd say just kill Ethilwen and crown Thoril for Hallifax), then you'll probably be in the clear to continue questing uninterrupted.
Again, it's not hypocrisy because you're picking up an orange and an apple and calling them both apples.
Magnagora responded in kind to the same actions Celest did to them to the same non-coms that did nothing to Celest, and yet they're the bad guys, but Hallifax lost a village king, didn't take the initiative to redo the quest and re-king their dwarf, and it's suddenly okay to grief his quest, but even though Magnagora has plenty of reasons to stop Celest in general, they're bad guys?
That's clear hyprocrisy. Either it's all ok, or none of it is ok, you don't get to play it the way you want when it's convenient for you
Then we should likely take this to another thread before Nocht puts me in jail.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Then we should likely take this to another thread before Nocht puts me in jail.
SHRUG. It's a simple concept, you get what you ask for. Karma's a bitch. What goes around comes around. Whatever cliche you want to use. Off limit topics are not so off topic when you make the conscious decision to start and escalate ooc discussions.
Comments
I've seen no point in this thread where it shifted from one to the other, they are part and parcel of the same discussion. The rage posts started in regards to the epic-quest griefing (as indicated). You can't just ignore part of the equation and sweep it under the rug because it can't be defended; the "real issue" here is that appropriate levels of response be observed by everyone. The parts that he was originally complaining about? Those are absolutely justified (though perhaps not by the people who were doing it). Lengthy abusive tells? Not justified at all, and @Enyalida already pointed out that those should've been ISSUE'd immediately. There is nobody here defending the legitimacy of those, and people involved in such should experience some Administrative response to indicate how distasteful that response is.
The truth of the matter is that Hallifax doesn't need an excuse at all to fuck with the epic quest. You're trying to force-feed us a double standard of "roll over and don't make any sudden movements, Hallifax" and "come on Hallifax, give us some conflict for once! Lusternia is SO BORING RIGHT NOW THERE'S NOTHING TO DO WEH". Make up your mind!
I am always open to informed criticisms of my actions and in that vein here is the entirety of the log of my conversations regarding this issue.
http://pastebin.com/KkPEtduW
2015/12/09 23:54:29 - Pejat drained 2000000 power to raise Davos as a Vernal Ascendant.
You use 80,000,000 of your divine essence. You gain BeauteousThought as a supernumerary power.
11:40:54 You tell Serenguard Rivius Tarsuhl, "To kill Eodh and his wakabi."
11:45:24 You tell Serenguard Rivius Tarsuhl, "I got his Wakabi. Why were you doing it?"
You tell Flesherd Eodh, "//I've no anger towards you or gaudiguch, but letting people do conflict quests without punishment is bad for the game and bad for Hallifax. I also had no idea that killing Wakabi would be a problem for you, you starting a second war is what gave me that information and had Serenwilde not actively been engaged in that already I would have left it go. You bring it on yourself when you start shit with everyone."
See, that's where the ooc goes bad, and it's not even from Davos for once.
They certainly do exist, while the details may vary, the overall intent is the same. Condemning Mag for doing it while justifying Hallifax's actions is pretty telling and hypocritical. Remember, I don't think killing the wakabi was a big deal, I think the associated tells are the real issue here.
I'll have to keep that in mind.
wow..okay
They certainly do exist, while the details may vary, the overall intent is the same. Condemning Mag for doing it while justifying Hallifax's actions is pretty telling and hypocritical.
Remember, I don't think killing the wakabi was a big deal, I think the associated tells are the real issue here.
While I generally agree with you, the only slightly offensive tells were ic. Ooc, Davos was generally polite and explained his actions. Eodh was the snarky one both icly and oocly.
Again, it's not hypocrisy because you're picking up an orange and an apple and calling them both apples.