What I'm getting out of this thread now (based entirely on the last posts) is that Portius is the real role play griefer. He's griefing all of your culture.
Actually, I do use a rubric when I score prestige submissions!
As someone who reads (or at least skims) almost every book published by any library, I haven't really seen very many books that are "low effort". Everyone is definitely at a different point in their writing skills, but it's very rare to see a book where I've thought "wow, someone just wrote a bunch of crap for an inflated word count."
As someone who also has the opportunity to see how many different players interact by being able to run (and observe) RP events, there's no "PKer" player that I've ever thought has lacked RP. I get that, being a "non-com" myself, it can be frustrating to engage in something where you have no hope of winning or feel that the skillset is unobtainable. However, almost everything in Lusternia is built around conflict, whether its RP or PK. Even when I was building the role of Zvoltz, a lot of the discussion with Estarra revolved around how the character could create conflicts for players to engage in. I think this gives me a unique perspective to see how players engage in conflict, either through PK or "RP", and I've rarely been disappointed in either case.
6
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I should write more, but I'm only good for a decentish book once every couple of years.
Tangent because @Zvoltz has caught my interest: Is this a Zvoltz rubric, or has everyone started using it? I asked an admin (Dro, I think? I'd have to look it up) a few months back and she said that everyone used their own criteria, so I assumed no rubrics. But if there is a common one now, it would be a pretty good thing to share. I'd love to be able to optimize based on a known grading scheme rather than things that I've inferred by watching what wins and what doesn't.
Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
1
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I just learned that Celina is a PKer and does not do the talky stuff.
I wish someone would tell her that!
You know, I used to like yell Nighty, Glommy things and sass off during Seren or Celest raids but the reaction was so negative that I stopped. Now I get the occasional hate tells, or the angry "non com" that would like me to know how terrible of a human I am, but beyond that I just murder in silence these days.
The lonely life of a homicidal princess.
edit: On the super rare occasion, someone will ask about how they died or for some info on something I did to them. Those interactions are always pleasant, and most of us are more than happy to share and teach. They are the unicorns of the PK world, however.
I've come to the same conclusion. Starting the tells or interactions beyond murdering is almost always taken the wrong way. So I just yelled generic things addressed to a group and no one specific and stopped telling unless they start it.
TBH, I never took combat seriously until alting (Hyrtakos) and getting beaten down. First by Diamante in the arena, but then by by Serenwilde over, over, and over again. Early Glomdoring was tough, but sort of turned me on to playing the underdog.
Team Glomffpeak's solidarity was forged by the fires of griefing and internal pep-talks afterwards because Black Sorrow.
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
Seriously if you feel people's actions are 'griefing' then just 'grief' back by playing at their own game. Im not saying get mad and flustered and raid prime to kill beggars in Mag's street, im saying to learn how to hit back. It's more than just "beat on him" and "Do this quest", there are a lot of avenues you can use, like releasing undead orcs into Mag owned villages. Just remember to keep it classy and not to degrade to pettiness of chasing people around influencing and debating them out of spite, that's just sad and reeks of ineptitude.
I find it hilarious that the guy who went to all sorts of lengths to chop elders is declaring certain other much more difficult things to do as 'sad and reeking of ineptitude'
I think it was meant to be "chasing around people who are influencing and debating them out of spite".
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited October 2015
Yeah but....you can walk away. That's like F level griefing.
edit: Once we three man ganked Fillin in the Undervault, choked him, shattered his debated him out, then shattered his forcefield, then killed him. Then he liched and we killed him again. He deserved it though because reasons.
I find it hilarious that the guy who went to all sorts of lengths to chop elders is declaring certain other much more difficult things to do as 'sad and reeking of ineptitude'
In what way is following someone influencing an area and running a debating script...more difficult? Im pretty sure the button pressing is even less.
Good show at passive aggressiveness though, but swing and a miss.
Yeah but....you can walk away. That's like F level griefing.
edit: Once we three man ganked Fillin in the Undervault, choked him, shattered his debated him out, then shattered his forcefield, then killed him. Then he liched and we killed him again. He deserved it though because reasons.
You can walk away as in...leave the area? Unless you are somewhat good (if at least experienced) in debating, you'll have to debate back to get the nuisance off your back, else you'll randomly find them appearing whenever you are influencing just to spite you. This is a common, rather tasteless, form of 'griefing' with no flare to it. Now raising Marilynth, that was a thing of beauty.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Lol. Tasteless is perspective. While Marilynth was funny, I think it's just as easy to portray Mag RP as "do whatever we want cause we're evil mwahaha" as superficial and "tasteless." Debating is tame to the point of almost being pointless. Mildly inconveniencing your auto influencer is not really what I would call "griefing."
Lol. Tasteless is perspective. While Marilynth was funny, I think it's just as easy to portray Mag RP as "do whatever we want cause we're evil mwahaha" as superficial and "tasteless." Debating is tame to the point of almost being pointless. Mildly inconveniencing your auto influencer is not really what I would call "griefing."
It's a basic example of doing something merely to spite another, with no benefit or reward (unless you count 'annoying someone', a reward). It's basically along the same lines as trying to find people in hunting areas where they are enemied to, to try and get an easy kill. No, you dont lose XP from losing a debate (unless you debate their ego low enough while they are influencing to make them lose the influence fight).
I thought we've made it pretty clear as to the reasoning behind the raising of Marilynth and the end-goal of the Sea-battle feud. Jumping/Debating people while farming essence is not the same thing, and is merely a baseless form of 'griefing'. Yes, it is defined as 'griefing', which is simply doing an action for the mere reason of harming another, and no form of reward to yourself, usually in a repetitive fashion. Punishable? Of course not. It still plays by the rules, but doesnt make it any less tacky.
If you're going to 'grief' (which was my original post before these 'lols'), then make it tasteful and give it substance, and avoid cheesy things like "Lol im gonna to be scouting you out whenever you're out farming, and im gonna hurts you bad".
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited October 2015
While I disagree with your definition of griefing and the egregiousness of just debating people vs mad libs RP to justify doing whatever you want, I don't disagree with the overall theme of your points. Where was this depth of clarity when you were chopping elders? Would have saved us all a lot of time.
In what way is following someone influencing an area and running a debating script...more difficult? Im pretty sure the button pressing is even less.
Good show at passive aggressiveness though, but swing and a miss.
You're really going to argue that debating someone out while they are influencing is easier than chopping down elders when no one is around? Or even when people are around? Really?
One requires actual confrontation, the other doesn't.
Defending elder chopping is sad and reeks of ineptitude.
By the way, that wasn't passive aggressive, it was straight calling you out.
I had a long spiel and different points but I don't think people would care.
At the core of it, people need to grow up, deal with it and buckle down. The minimum age of playing is 13 but with some of the people I've spoken to it might as well be 7.
Best you can do is be nice to people and foster a good atmosphere.
All of this is insanely petty and needs to stop. It's basically:
You can't roleplay grief someone. You can use roleplay as an excuse to grief someone but roleplay is a neutral concept. Bad or good, that's your opinion, and frankly, it's none of your business unless it actively affects you. It's like people bashing gays and gay marriage; it is none of their business, affects them in no way, and can be easily ignored, so why do they care so much?
I have taken awhile to weigh in on this subject, but I think I should mention a few things as I have a unique perspective because very few people in Lusternia have as much experience as I have towards griefing, from dishing it out and receiving it tenfold.
First, my definition of griefing is very different from most. Most people's definition of griefing is closer to harassment, my definition is a lot closer to an inconvenience. My definition is if anyone is purposely hampering you, if the only thing someone gains is from you not gaining, that is griefing. For the example that started this whole thread, the only thing Magnagora gained from raising Marilynth is preventing Celest from doing something. No Magnagoran acquired personal gain, the only thing they achieved was strife.
Perfectly fitting roleplay. One very shitty mechanic that is taken advantage of based on the community and its expectations of the power creep. I am not singling out Magnagora, Celest has done similar things in the past, from not removing Ladantine to prevent Magnagora from doing it again to doing the exact same thing (raising Ladantine so no Mag could do it - though they had members of Gaudiguch raise Ladantine so they didn't get their hands dirty).
And that's the thing. What happened there is actually Roleplay "Griefing". No one went out of there way to kill someone, they used their roleplay, their position, and their influence on the people around them to "grief" their enemies. I think of the way that I was ousted as Warlord, most people would probably consider everything that went down as griefing, yet it was apparently all roleplayed out.. These are examples of perfectly reasonable griefing that goes nowhere near harassing or other people's definition of griefing.
The other thing I wanted to mention is the fact that people are expecting interaction with their enemies or those who just killed you, and wish they could roleplay more with them. Coming from my Magnagoran perspective, why would I ever want to converse with my enemies? Most of my enemies want to destroy Magnagora and the Viscanti entirely because of the backstabbing that some shitty Gods did before any of us ever existed, why would I ever interact with someone that is brainwashed so badly? This isn't the Age of Valour and Honour, it is the age of wanting to not be exterminated.
Probably two weeks late, but I've stopped paying attention.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
The other thing I wanted to mention is the fact that people are expecting interaction with their enemies or those who just killed you, and wish they could roleplay more with them. Coming from my Magnagoran perspective, why would I ever want to converse with my enemies? Most of my enemies want to destroy Magnagora and the Viscanti entirely because of the backstabbing that some shitty Gods did before any of us ever existed, why would I ever interact with someone that is brainwashed so badly? This isn't the Age of Valour and Honour, it is the age of wanting to not be exterminated.
This, in my opinion, perfectly sums up the dilemma. Thanks, Silvanus. But how do we get more of what we actually want from each other?
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
There are three types of roleplay that best suit the situation between enemies for life to interact with each other.
Diplomacy - Grand roleplay between organizations. There is far too little of this because there really isn't any mechanics to back up treaties, but this has the most overall impact towards an individual. There isn't really anyway to make it a hardcoded (nor point) mechanic when most of it is just influenced by the player's opinions of the org and its members or the organization's ability to profit of the treaty. The real life historical parallel to this is the Molotov-Rippentrop pact in WW2 between Germany-USSR, or subsequent alliances between US-USSR and Japan-Germany.
Culture - My personal favorite. The best way to roleplay between enemies (that exists right now) is by publishing books that discredit your enemies while advancing your own agenda. You don't have to have personal interaction with your enemy to roleplay with them, you can subtweet them through books and publications to basically call them out and have a war of wits. I don't think this mechanic needs any adjusting, mostly just people being more aware of how much impact Culture can have on your organization's overall power output (Your culture score = power generated every day, or its half your culture score = power).
Order Wars - The religious aspect. Part of the best way to roleplay with your enemies is by advancing the will of your God. The unfortunate truth is this mechanic is even worse than a non-existant mechanic of Diplomacy. Order Wars do exist, it is a thing, it never happens because of how terribly designed it is. If Order Wars could be designed better, you could easily solve a lot of roleplay issues that are not solved by the above. Perhaps setup a system similar to Culture but with Order and provide benefits for the top Order. Something like essence offered, godrealm mobs influenced, order player kills vs order player deaths, winning order wars, and other various mechanical things. The Order Wars is the least fleshed out roleplay mechanic between large scale organizations, but one that has a large potential ability to impact roleplay.
If I were to focus on improving any one thing to advance roleplay issues versus PK, it would be Divine Orders, Avatars, and Order Wars. Your Divine should be the one that you get your most important roleplay influence from, and can have the ability to influence PK where the normal PKers would want to get involved with Order roleplay.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
RE Diplomacy. It only works that way in Magnagora, Silvanus. Everyone else somehow manages to have treaties and negotiate their way into more limited forms of conflict. Hallifax recently made an agreement not to interfere with Glomdoring and Serenwilde's fights and to, in return, not be expected to side with one over the other. Glomdoring and Serenwilde have agreed for multiple IRL years now to join together in coming down hard on anyone who attacks Faethorn. The problem isn't that there's no mechanics backing up treaties. The problem is that Magnagora just isn't interested in negotiating treaties and doesn't particularly care to obey the few that do get negotiated. Which is, of course, the exact problem the RP contingent has: "We're not going to negotiate, at all, ever. Stop asking us things." is an incredibly boring stance to take, diplomatically.
Not a single treaty was broken while I was Warlord or returned to the game, and everyone was punished that attempted to break a treaty.
In fact, in the past five years that I"ve been returned, the only nation to not honor a treaty with Magnagora has been Serenwilde (not defending Nil because Hoarcle) and Morbo's stupid neutral plan with Hallifax.
It has been your inability to see beyond personal expectations of what Magnagora is. The honor agreement between Svorai and myself between Glomdoring/Magnagora lasted for over a real life year. One that didn't even have an official treaty signed. The treaty that Magnagora has signed with Gaudiguch, which is the extension of the agreement between Svo and myself, has been going on since after Morkarion's ascension, which will be 3 real life years come February.
So no, it has not been Magnagora's fault. I just gave you four examples of treaties/agreements that Magnagora has honored in the past 5-6 years since I have returned. I can't even name one that Magnagora has not honored outside of Marcella/Arcanis stupidity (and it wasn't even a treaty, and they did get punished for it)..
Please take your IC biasedness somewhere else unless you want to bring up facts.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
The problem is that Magnagora just isn't interested in negotiating treaties and doesn't particularly care to obey the few that do get negotiated.
Yeah there's some bs there, I made an attempt not long after becoming WL to try and patch things up with Seren. Avurekhos said they'd discuss it, never got back to me, talked to other members of the Moonhart Circle and was told that 'they didn't really have a say in much it was only 2-3 people who really made the calls in Serenwilde'. Then Seren promptly jumped on the carrying celest bandwagon up until the point of, what.. 3 wildenodes back when Ryboi, Jaamil, and (I guess Enyalida) asked us to help them try to beat Glom, yet they didn't/weren't able to pass that tidbit of knowledge to their fighters so it turned into a lawlfest.
Don't even get me started on current alliances that contain instances of 'Help me fight my enemy that my one ally is an ally of and won't help me fight even though they are allied to both of us and pick and choose based on a coin flip for the day'. Diplomacy died a long time ago and Magnagora didn't fully kill it, it happened somewhere around the time a Divine started mandating that members of their org not do shit all for their allies yet that org still expects and graciously accepts all help given to them. Also yes @Silvanus, that lols 'hey let's break up and be neutral to split Equinox' and then two days later two of the 3 reform the alliance and shaft the one that brought the most muscle to a fight.
Not a single treaty was broken while I was Warlord or returned to the game, and everyone was punished that attempted to break a treaty.
In fact, in the past five years that I"ve been returned, the only nation to not honor a treaty with Magnagora has been Serenwilde (not defending Nil because Hoarcle) and Morbo's stupid neutral plan with Hallifax.
It has been your inability to see beyond personal expectations of what Magnagora is. The honor agreement between Svorai and myself between Glomdoring/Magnagora lasted for over a real life year. One that didn't even have an official treaty signed. The treaty that Magnagora has signed with Gaudiguch, which is the extension of the agreement between Svo and myself, has been going on since after Morkarion's ascension, which will be 3 real life years come February.
So no, it has not been Magnagora's fault. I just gave you four examples of treaties/agreements that Magnagora has honored in the past 5-6 years since I have returned. I can't even name one that Magnagora has not honored outside of Marcella/Arcanis stupidity (and it wasn't even a treaty, and they did get punished for it)..
Please take your IC biasedness somewhere else unless you want to bring up facts.
Heyo, we never had a treaty requiring Serenwilde to defend Nil, nor did Serenwilde actually stop defending Nil (I know, because I was there... defending Nil). We eventually dissolved that treaty, using the disolving clauses in said treaty, quite some time later.
Also no, do not "I guess" include me in anything. The tidbit of knowledge was two people suggesting it, and then the truth of "No, we're at war with Magnagora, stop cooperating with Magnagora" was told to the fighters, because it's true!
Comments
As someone who reads (or at least skims) almost every book published by any library, I haven't really seen very many books that are "low effort". Everyone is definitely at a different point in their writing skills, but it's very rare to see a book where I've thought "wow, someone just wrote a bunch of crap for an inflated word count."
As someone who also has the opportunity to see how many different players interact by being able to run (and observe) RP events, there's no "PKer" player that I've ever thought has lacked RP. I get that, being a "non-com" myself, it can be frustrating to engage in something where you have no hope of winning or feel that the skillset is unobtainable. However, almost everything in Lusternia is built around conflict, whether its RP or PK. Even when I was building the role of Zvoltz, a lot of the discussion with Estarra revolved around how the character could create conflicts for players to engage in. I think this gives me a unique perspective to see how players engage in conflict, either through PK or "RP", and I've rarely been disappointed in either case.
Then I get the RL curses.
It is my own personal rubric to help me make sure I'm being fair in my scoring across the board. I don't know how everyone else does their scoring.
"Does this book extol Zvoltz? (50pt)
Does this book have lightning? (25pt)
Is it up to Hallifaxian standards of grammar? (25pt)"
Abuse away, Port.
In what way is following someone influencing an area and running a debating script...more difficult? Im pretty sure the button pressing is even less.
Good show at passive aggressiveness though, but swing and a miss.
You can walk away as in...leave the area? Unless you are somewhat good (if at least experienced) in debating, you'll have to debate back to get the nuisance off your back, else you'll randomly find them appearing whenever you are influencing just to spite you. This is a common, rather tasteless, form of 'griefing' with no flare to it. Now raising Marilynth, that was a thing of beauty.
It's a basic example of doing something merely to spite another, with no benefit or reward (unless you count 'annoying someone', a reward). It's basically along the same lines as trying to find people in hunting areas where they are enemied to, to try and get an easy kill. No, you dont lose XP from losing a debate (unless you debate their ego low enough while they are influencing to make them lose the influence fight).
I thought we've made it pretty clear as to the reasoning behind the raising of Marilynth and the end-goal of the Sea-battle feud. Jumping/Debating people while farming essence is not the same thing, and is merely a baseless form of 'griefing'. Yes, it is defined as 'griefing', which is simply doing an action for the mere reason of harming another, and no form of reward to yourself, usually in a repetitive fashion. Punishable? Of course not. It still plays by the rules, but doesnt make it any less tacky.
If you're going to 'grief' (which was my original post before these 'lols'), then make it tasteful and give it substance, and avoid cheesy things like "Lol im gonna to be scouting you out whenever you're out farming, and im gonna hurts you bad".
You're really going to argue that debating someone out while they are influencing is easier than chopping down elders when no one is around? Or even when people are around? Really? One requires actual confrontation, the other doesn't. Defending elder chopping is sad and reeks of ineptitude.
It has been your inability to see beyond personal expectations of what Magnagora is. The honor agreement between Svorai and myself between Glomdoring/Magnagora lasted for over a real life year. One that didn't even have an official treaty signed. The treaty that Magnagora has signed with Gaudiguch, which is the extension of the agreement between Svo and myself, has been going on since after Morkarion's ascension, which will be 3 real life years come February.
Also no, do not "I guess" include me in anything. The tidbit of knowledge was two people suggesting it, and then the truth of "No, we're at war with Magnagora, stop cooperating with Magnagora" was told to the fighters, because it's true!