On Roleplaying Griefing

Maligorn

Hey, all.

I wasn't able to properly express myself in the Quotes thread without making a big honking post, so it's going here. You all know I'm a bleeding heart and a Hallifaxian IRL, so beware.

These are the questions I want answered by the general populace; whether you speak up or not is up to you.

Is the vicious cycle perpetuated by griefing healthy for the game? Does stomping one side when you're strong and just taking it when you're not really the key to a healthy Lusternia?

Should Thalkros be punished for raising Marilynth ICly? Is Magnagora's "ends justify the means" up to eleven justifiable on an OOC and IC level? Similarly, does every org arguably have that same drive or would it be more reasonable to stick to civilized warfare? Would a Celestian raising Marani Veloske be as abhorrent, or a Hallifaxian summoning the mirror army on the mesa compound?

When innocent players suffer, does it matter? If a non-combatant can't complete something because of grief-hungry combatants, what is their best course of action? Who gets to define what aspect of the game (as there are many) is paramount?

Can one really say they're just griefing the org, not the person, when it's evident that only one person would benefit from x y z conditions in their epic quest (because what is 25k power, honestly)?

Obviously, I could one day go "Collective is go" and decide to make it my life's journey to keep anyone from doing Gaudiguch's epic quest. Anyone can pick up the griefing mantle with enough time and effort. But I choose not to because I feel like Gaudiguch is in a suffering state right now as far as RP and populace goes. I don't want to discourage them from playing by being the marauding Hallifaxian that will kill newbies on sight and blah blah blah. Or does that kind of behaviour ultimately strengthen Gaudiguch and Hallifax, bonded by warfare?

Have we devolved as a society like Malarious said (not sure how serious he was being) in the Quotes thread? When are we going to mature up and draw the line, or is drawing the line actually the wrong thing to do?

I think that's all I have for now. Might edit in some more questions later.

tl;dr I'm really super jaded about Lusternia right now. I'm about ready to cut it out of my life but for a few short appearances here and there. Is this the right game for me anymore or should I seek my thrills elsewhere?

Aeldra

As I said in the quotes thread, I think this kind of question is what people (especially Celest/Mag) need to be asked and answered for themselves. I personally think that a lot of what is happening is 'you did to me years back, now am doing it to you'. At least, I hear it a lot. I think that is one of the surefire things you need to step back and ask yourself how this game is played. As also said before, fighting lost wars and being on the loosing side is fine, as long as your IC enemies treat you with respect on an OOC level and make it interesting for everybody. I am kind of reluctant to give my answers to these questions myself, as I think it's more important that the people who play Lusternia for years face them.

Ssaliss

Personally, I think griefing is extremely detrimental to the game, for one simple reason: It's only fun for one side, while the other side suffers from it. That said, I'm not sure Marilynth in this case is really to be called griefing; it's an odd quirk for sure, and it might make for some uncomfortable roleplay for Celest to take her down (honestly, I have absolutely no clue about who or what Marilynth is, or how she's raised, or how she's taken down, so for all I know this might be a non-issue), but as long as it's not done constantly and she's raised as soon as she's dropped, I don't really see the issue.

For me, griefing is when one side takes a minimal amount of effort to cause a situation that will take a far larger amount of effort to clean up, especially if it's repeated, and there is little to nothing that can be done to prevent it. Fortunately, I believe there are few of these kind of mechanics left to exploit, but even if one is found, I don't think it's healthy to take too big of an advantage of it. I'm not saying these kind of things should be completely banned; if they are done rarely enough, there is little issue, and can even spice things up a bit, but if they are done constantly, then it just becomes a chore to fix it.

Kiradawea

The "griefing" aspect is probably how Marilynth can only be raised once per sea battle. Even if she's brought down, Celest will have to win their next sea battle in order to have a chance at raising her again. So by your own definition, it's griefing.

Regarding the original question. Vicious cycles are bad, and one side stomping on the other is bad. But at the moment, Magnagora isn't really stomping on Celest. They've got an equal amount of villages, both have aetherbubbles, both have domoths. If anything, the problem is with a current bottleneck in the epic, where both sides want to win the sea battle so they can keep getting orgbixes for their citizens.

The other orgs don't experience this for a variety of reasons. For the forests, the quests are easy (and easy to accidentally grief in one instance) and one side doing a quest doesn't lock the other side out of doing the quest for real life days. For Halli/Gaudi, the hand is a drone of constant work, but also of constant progress. If you're the first to start building on your statue, you're also likely to be the first to complete it, and any work that the other side does is also going to be a wash. And griefing just stops the quest for both sides, meaning no progress, and no chance for either side to really get their orgbix. It harms them both.

Sea battle however, does not work like that. At a point in time, the sea battle happens, and whichever side has the most sea battle points win. In order to win then, you want to constantly work on having the most points at any one time. The best way to ensure you can get your epic done is by destroying things for the other.

I doubt this would be such a huge problem if sea battles happened more often. More chances of raising the Ship/Marani, and less bottlenecking of people waiting for a chance to finish their epic.

As for @Maligorn I'm not gonna try to make you stay if you want to leave the game. but if you do leave I at least will miss you.

Aeldra

@kiradawea I don't really see 'stomping', but I see people on both sides doing things out of what I perceive as OOC dislike and passing that dislike along.

Synkarin

You guys need thicker skins. Stop getting mad and get even. 

This is a conflict game, that means there's going to be conflict and griefing. As has been said numerous times. When more intense, longer lasting, much worse griefing was taking place, the game population was much higher. Is this OOC bleedover? Probably, but you're never going to prevent that 100%. 

Not everything is going to be sunshine and rainbows, 

To be 100% honest, if people started griefing Gaudi epic or raid or whatever, it'd likely pick up the population because quite a few people are bored because there is no fighting going on.

Thalkros

Like Synkarin said, this is a conflict game an everything that I've done personally has been win conflict avenues that greatly impact Celest. This isn't fueled from years of celest abuse because honestly I've never seen celest abuse outside of epic chaining and then getting whatever 2-3 allied nations they have at the time to carry them.

I have nothing to feel guilty of so I'm not going to lie and say sorry, my bad to individuals I've not specifically targeted from ooc vendettas. It's a game, if you let someone else ruin your enjoyment of a game because they play the game differently than you'd like, YOU need to step back

Maligorn

So...the solution if you're feeling griefed is to stop playing, is what you're saying.

Thalkros

I'm saying quit losing sleep over scrolling text from a server in Chicago(or wherever they moved the data center to)

Synkarin

Synkarin said:

 Stop getting mad and get even. 

That's my solution.

Thalkros

Basically yes, eventru is gone so forum tears won't summon change anymore.

Cyndarin

The only vicious cycle I see is that as soon as someone believes that are being inconvenienced or not getting their way, they will quickly label it griefing and shut down a constructive discussion. The OP, and at least it is honest about it, is more about painting the side that is not yours as immature, griefy, and less interested in the collective enjoyment of the playerbase-which is exactly what is wrong with the entire discussion-and none of them are true.

You are not entitled to an orgbix. I understand, you (generic "you") want one, you worked hard for one, you spent a lot of time for one-you are still not entitled to it. There are an abundance of other quests not routinely prevented that you can pursue if questing is how you derive enjoyment from Lusternia. If specifically getting an orgbix is how you derive enjoyment, unfortunately it is not up to the community to accommodate you. If preventing that quest is how another derives enjoyment, suddenly we are at an impasse where the orgbixer's side has set a double standard, where they should be able to do what they want while the other side should not. I, personally, I think entitlement and the expectation that the game and its players conform to your perceptions are far more detrimental to the discourse than those engaging in conflict and counter questing. 

The healthiest thing that could come from this is that some players get some perspective and stop labeling conflict they don't like as griefy. While "griefing," is a bit of an amorphous idea in Lusternia, it's also a very old term with a great deal of context surrounding it, and the context it is being used in now is a bit absurd when considering how it's been used in the past.

Aeldra

Just to make this clear, as I think at least some people have a wrong impression (which I think is largely my fault, apologies for that). I have no problem whether or not I do get that orgbix thing. I don't really even have a real impression what it does, I did the quest because I felt it was something my character would so and I enjoyed some parts of it quite well, others not so much, but I pulled through to a large part. The whole Marylith thing is a temporary setback I will or will not get around, that remains to be seen.

I made the 'cay' thread a while ago, where my main problem, in hindsight, was that I felt myself being pitted alone against a lot of people who were a lot more experienced then myself. You know what I did? I went and wrote about 16 letters to different people within Celest to rally support to help me turn the cay and get forward. And guess what? I suddenly had a lot of support. I don't have a problem with that at all.

I think my mistake is / was, that I have assumed some things about some people from their posts on the forum being motivations for their IC doings. That is wrong and I do apologize for that. I still feel that the atmosphere perceived of this forums is not very welcoming and at times, esp between Celest/Magnagora players hostile, but that is my personal problem and not that one of you all.

edit: I was used to be able to use forums for venting on things that frustrated me on a game. I think the current community has taken most of my venting the wrong way, I'll try to refrain from it in the future.

Cyndarin

Well, when I said "generic you," I meant it. It's not specific to this scenario, and it was Saoirse that originally called it griefing, Whether or not a quest should or could be changed is an entirely valid, but separate discussion than the one I wanted to address.

I don't think the atmosphere is generally unwelcoming, there are all kinds silly, friendly posts and they just matter of factly outweigh the arguments and disagreements. What people are hostile to is "complain for change," that has been abused and taken advantage of in the past and much to the detriment of one particular side of the game. Whether that was your intent is obviously your call to make. I don't know if it's coindence or a cultural thing, but complain for change has almost exclusively come from and benefited one side, and you just happen to walk in on an existing grudge on the side that is usually the most guilty of doing it. The flip side of that is that actual issues or constructive criticism is often perceived as "complain for change" because of this history, whether fairly or not.

Personally, I think a lot of the ire that spawned from this particular discussion is when a player who is now infamous for taking advantage of a system to get their way has suddenly found the moral high ground and is waving the griefer flag at Mag. 

Aeldra

@Celina Thank you. I really appreciate your calm argument and it has indeed given me some perspective. I was never out to actually really change anything beside, maybe, trying to lighten people's attitude a bit. And saying there's a lot of hostility isn't particularly right either, I agree. There's just some topic, as you said, that generate a lot of hostility. But then, I don't know the history you people have gone through and what all has been abused. I did vent at occasion and did then later realize that change is not actually needed on most things. And the things I think need changing, are often minor things as not being able to pick firefly squid by color.

Chirbo

Why are you guys so quick to grind the oposing org into the ground but when they hit back people call "Grief!!! You are ruining the game!!!11!!!"

Don't lose sleep over it.

Everything in lusternia is a cycle, you'll be on top again soon.

Arcanis

As Arcanis told @Aeldra within the game, she sadly is the inheritent of 'griefing' that preceded her at the hands of certain celest players that made it their game life goal to try and deny Magnagora Cay, with their reasoning being "You killed our supernals". Not only was it these players, but they also tried to call in support from all over in an attempt to force their hand on Cay, even when they had none to complete their epic. Eventually after they were beaten, Mag came in strength and has had a heavy hand on Cay, in which sadly is when Aeldra came into the picture.

As I told you in game, it isnt personal, it's just how the mechanics, and situation, is. You cant expect Mag to accept Kelly's proposal of "Peaced actions on Cay" after Mag gained the upperhand on it. It's like someone pointing a gun at you, and you managed to flip the tables around and now have it pointed toward them, and they are pleading for you to have mercy.


As for the idea of "Punishing @Thalkros". Why would we? He denied Celest victory, with no cost to us. Mechnically, Marilynth means -nothing- to Magnagora. What does she do exactly? Sing to spectres? Meh. Make Sea of Despair slightly clearer? We never cared for it. Annoy Ladantine? Like I said before, we really dont care about Ladantine -at all-, why do you think he doesnt live in the city. He is a means to an end, nothing more.


So go ahead Marilynth, sing to your heart's content.



Edit: And frankly I dont see the conflict of sea battle disappearing any time soon so long as the current mechanics are in place. If anything, conflict is good, but I agree Sea battle needs some loosening up, it's a big too much, whilst the other orgs need it tied together more.

Vivet

Arcanis said:

As Arcanis told @Aeldra within the game, she sadly is the inheritent of 'griefing' that preceded her at the hands of certain celest players that made it their game life goal to try and deny Magnagora Cay, with their reasoning being "You killed our supernals". Not only was it these players, but they also tried to call in support from all over in an attempt to force their hand on Cay, even when they had none to complete their epic. Eventually after they were beaten, Mag came in strength and has had a heavy hand on Cay, in which sadly is when Aeldra came into the picture.

And this is where we see the "don't get mad, get even" ideology edge us towards issues. That strategy works in one of three situations:

1. You really, truly want nothing more than a constant and perpetual escalation of conflict.

2. You really, truly can never get mad, ever.

3. You can keep it up longer than the other side (likely due to sheer force), ensuring that the situation terminates in your favour.

I think it's worth emphasizing that no one needs the "get even" part of this equation. Everyone does that already, be it IC or forums bleedover. The "don't" is pretty much the cornerpiece to making it work at all for you, especially if you're on the losing end of things. "Get mad, get even" doesn't really work for anyone ever.

Cyndarin

I'll take solutions 1 or 3, please.

Arcanis

Vivet said:

Arcanis said:

As Arcanis told @Aeldra within the game, she sadly is the inheritent of 'griefing' that preceded her at the hands of certain celest players that made it their game life goal to try and deny Magnagora Cay, with their reasoning being "You killed our supernals". Not only was it these players, but they also tried to call in support from all over in an attempt to force their hand on Cay, even when they had none to complete their epic. Eventually after they were beaten, Mag came in strength and has had a heavy hand on Cay, in which sadly is when Aeldra came into the picture.

And this is where we see the "don't get mad, get even" ideology edge us towards issues. That strategy works in one of three situations:

1. You really, truly want nothing more than a constant and perpetual escalation of conflict.

2. You really, truly can never get mad, ever.

3. You can keep it up longer than the other side (likely due to sheer force), ensuring that the situation terminates in your favour.

I think it's worth emphasizing that no one needs the "get even" part of this equation. Everyone does that already, be it IC or forums bleedover. The "don't" is pretty much the cornerpiece to making it work at all for you, especially if you're on the losing end of things. "Get mad, get even" doesn't really work for anyone ever.

But you also cant ask people to "Forget and move on" and assume it a practical choice. This is, after all, a game of war, and whenever one org gains the upperhand, they try to hold onto it. It is basically the same conflict when it comes to villages or bubbles, each org trying to mark their territory and keep outsiders out. Cay is simply a contested battlefield.

Vivet

Yeah, that's also true too. The game gets pretty boring if no one does anything ever. But it definitely pays to think it out and be judicious about when and where you're going to take a shot at things, especially since paybacks usually focus on the same sort of behaviour (ie, astral jumping begets astral jumping).

Shuyin

Please go ahead and grind gaudiguch into dust, I'd appreciate it. Teach those jerks a lesson.

It would help them tbh.

Cyndarin

He just wants a reason to grief you. Don't fall into his vicious cycle. 

Shuyin

No way, if we're suffering in RP and population, put us out of our misery. We're still up 18:2 in spheres killed to flesh pots!

Cyndarin

Someone needed to crush your messiah complex. Little did we know it would be Gaudis stubborness to abandon frat party RP. 

Arcanis

Raids on Gaudi would be a good thing for activity, not to mention perhaps spark the rivalry it and Hallifax as suppose to have (which frankly has weak base support as is)

Shuyin

I'll even sweeten the pot and let only one of our numerous alliances help us out. That's a great deal compared to whatever number of alliances now. 4 or 5?

Whatever made things result in a very peaceful wildnodes the other day until sidd jumped in.

Cyndarin

There are days when I'm oh so tempted to go Gaudi just to stir up trouble with Synkarin. Alas, I cannot bring myself to give up vernal demigod and avatar for it. I am relegated to solo griefing ladies. Again. 

Synkarin

It wouldn't only be me, @Lothringen is here ready to stir out trouble with you too

Tarkenton

When I bailed on Gaudi during the whole eaf thing to go back to Glom, it was with the reasonable expectation that we were going to get our faces shoved into the dirt and held there due to politics at the time. That never really materialized, which has always left me sad. I wanted that uphill battle and small victories to build off of. I'd consider ye olde rolling up an alt, but I'm attached to my conveniences. Quick, Celina, let's act unilaterally and just go to war against everyone by ourselves!

Hyrtakos

TBH, I never took combat seriously until alting (Hyrtakos) and getting beaten down. First by Diamante in the arena, but then by by Serenwilde over, over, and over again. Early Glomdoring was tough, but sort of turned me on to playing the underdog.