RP vs PK

Riluna

Both RP and PK really were more rewarding, back in the day. Is there a way to return to that, or are we stuck whatever kind of limbo is going on right now?

Kethaera

Ayisdra said:

You can debate all day that a combatant who doesn't min-max for their class is doing it wrong (and that the game would be more fun if they min-max'd correctly) just as you can argue that a non-combatant is less helpful in the long run for an org.

I don't understand the argument on either point. It could be that a combatant does things other than pking all day, and they decide that NOT min-maxing everything, is more beneficial to them because of the non-pk activities they do. In which case, the game would be less fun if they played it "correctly". I once knew a guy who deliberately took a broken(bad, at the time) class just to prove he could do it better than anyone else... so even within pk, not everyone has identical goals. 

As for non-combatants being less helpful... I'd need to hear the reasoning on that one, as there are plenty of non-coms who do helpful things for their orgs, and the interaction they have with other players can be a major way to retain newbies(whether or not those players go on to learn pk themselves). Combatants can do that too, so a whole lot of this argument would depend on the people in question, and what non-pk things they do that could be comparable to the benefit gained from pk things.

Saran

I'm actually kinda confused about the statements that PK, at least, was more rewarding back in the day.

I mean sure, it was nice taking down the Supernals went Seren and Celest went to war, but still it's something that's possible there just never seem to be the numbers to do it.

And I'd probably be more active in raiding, I just... don't see the point and I never really have. Like the most it's ever seemed like you could really do to the enemy is take down their big boss mobs and give them some work to restore them, possibly start hitting their power reserves if you get through their shield. (Though, of course, only if you are diametrically opposed to them)

I guess for me, I kinda want to get something other than good feels out of the exchange.

Shuyin

IMO it was more rewarding because there were less "forced" versions of conflict/PK - people jumped in because they wanted to, not because a village/aetherflare/domoth/wildnodes/etc popped up. People are more likely to feel good about things if they willingly participate, not because they were cajoled/e-shamed into it.

I will admit maybe being younger helped too - no one had a job, we lived in our parent's basements as lame virgins, and were just generally more patient with things.

Riluna

Saran said:

I'm actually kinda confused about the statements that PK, at least, was more rewarding back in the day.

For me, this is difficult to describe objectively, though I definitely feel it's true. It was more than raiding supernals, or raiding anything, really. We honoured our warriors. It was intrinsically tied to our RP. We honoured our warriors, and for reasons more than just respecting ability. The world was dangerous. They were an integral part of our society. The world was very dangerous, and there was respect for those who were able to meet the danger, no matter their intentions.

I would point to Vernal Ascendancy as an example. Once, we honoured many people. Some were RP bastions, pinnacles of what it meant to be a member of our org. Their very presence brought us life, and we honoured them as gods for that. Just as we did, and still do, raise Ascendants to be our champions now (though for very different reasons).

RPers and combatants alike were rewarded for the exact same reasons. They were intrinsically connected, as they no longer seem to be. People who ran around doing no more than murdering each other were rewarded for their actions in RP terms, rather than RP being an excuse for their actions (as they so often seem to be now). They were rewarded in RP, when now they are rewarded for combat alone (usually). That was more than what they are rewarded for today.

I've never understood the pk-only mindset, but even then, it seems to me that people were rewarded for simply challenging themselves against others much more than they are now. I hope to find opinions from modern PKers now on that topic.

Does that make any sense, in terms of this discussion? I'll try again, in other words, if I'm as unclear as I fear I am.

Riluna

One attempt at other words: Sojiro once wasn't just a warrior. He was a hero. That's much more than we seem to think of our combatants these days.

Kethaera

If I had to guess, I'd wager that a large part of that change is that the playerbase is older, with less free time, less enamored with the "newness" of anything about the game, and there are fewer new players coming in, in addition to there being more competition for online gaming than there was then. Also, I'd suspect that it is easier today to become a combatant than it was when the game was new, and there weren't free systems for it.

Cyndarin

I would have to disagree with Riluna on this, I think that's a somewhat romantic, but not particularly accurate perspective on what PK is/was. If anything, I think the PK crowd today tends to RP more and be more involved in the day to day goings ons of their orgs than the older PK crowd. We've obviously always had people that are on both sides of the fence, but I don't really see any fundamental change in how PKers and RPers behaved or were "rewarded."

If nothing else, the number of "I killed you because I can" players has decreased if for no other reason than the PK volume has decreased.

edit: maybe it's org specific. Given that I don't play much lately, but Glom has always had a degree of reverence for my character when it came to war and conflict, or at least that's my (maybe vain) perspective.

Saran

@Riluna the difficulty of the answer is part of the reason I asked the question tbh. 

For me, as I've expressed, I really like objective based pvp. The spontaneity is lacking as Shuyin mentioned in the current systems that we have but they do offer a goal and a reward.

I'd be like... super happy I guess if like... the various systems in place just kinda became objectives that fed into larger system, I think I've said this before but like... some form of tech tree(beyond earth not normal civ) that you use resources gathered by the various systems to level up, where you could also use diplomacy to broker trade deals, and perhaps other non-typical pvp arenas could become involved (the stuff that gets labelled more "rp" based). Something that I can help with, even though there's at best two other people in Serenwilde when I'm most often around.

Riluna

I'm very possibly waxing romantic. I'm definitely the nostalgic type.

But I think, even so, there is definitely a huge, fundamental difference between then and now in how we raised Vernals (i.e. how we rewarded people within our community, in the most blatant example). We had Vernals for no other reason than RP. That had a huge impact on how we raised Vernals. They weren't raised for the the sole reason that they were more skilled, and more committed to their skill, than anybody else. Some people were awesome combatants, and never saw VA. Though the same people would now.

Because there was more to what we valued going on.

Saran

Maybe I'm misremembering but I thought the attitude of it only being worth it to raise people who were combatants to vernal was there from the very beginning. 

Not with Soll, because that was the only time that an ascension resulted in an Ascended God. But after he came back down and the Ascendant system was put in place it was pretty quickly decided that you wanted to only really ascend your combatants to have more people to do domoths and stuff.

Riluna

@Saran Do you remember Nejii?

Riluna

AFAIR, the "combat is the only reason to raise VA" came about only after the changes to the power costs for doing so were even implemented. I distinctly remember a huge bitchfest about "bye RP Vernals". I'm only familiar with Serenwilde's examples, but I was under the impression it was more widespread.

Tarkenton

Nejii could lead a group, even if he wasn't the greatest brawler. One of my first memories of Lusternia is my original toon getting enemied to Glom as a newbie shofangi on a raid that nejii lead.

Riluna

He was a leader. And raised on the merits of his RP strength alone. Nejii was an RP god.

That's exactly my point. Both skills used to be extremely important, to varying, but equal, degrees. 

EDIT: The reason Nejii could even lead raids, AFAIK, was because of the VA skills he was granted. I loved hunting with him, because he loved using Aegis.

Xenthos

The first VA was Nejii, the second me, and the third was Malicia. This was a time when VA was idealized to be "someone who represents your org". In Glom at least, raising a VA is still very heavily focused on trying to get someone who represents the org, not just a pk-person (see: Lerad). I cannot speak for other orgs, though.

Vetala

Zvoltz said:

Ayisdra said:

The thing is, we -always- survive/win. I would even be willing to bet the admin don't even have a plan if we all (somehow) threw up our hands and let the Soulless take over.

Reboot to first version of the game released from beta, no refunds on lost artifacts/characters.

Don't joke like that.. you'll give the soulless some allies!

Synkarin

pretty sure @Lavinya and @Arimisia are both RP VA's (not to discount their PK combatyness)

Gaudi raised @Aiyana as a RP VA

I guess the point is RP VA's still exist, but usually you try to find someone that does both the RP and combat side.

Everiine

I don't ever remember when the primary question when trying to raise a VA wasn't "Will they participate in Domoths?". Yeah, Nejii may have been raised as a pinnacle example of what it meant to be Serenwilde, but it couldnt' have been much longer after that that the primary criteria was combat and Domoth ability. The game's concept of a Vernal Ascendant is nowhere near the heroism that were the Vernal Gods.

Enyalida

It used to be a lot cheaper to raise Vernals. You could have your two or three PK vernals and afford to raise a few more.

Synkarin

Yeah, it used to only be a million power a pop, and if you were one a roll, villages, domoths, bubbles, nodes, culture center all boosted power to make it pretty easy to raise VA's. When the VA change came through, Glom descended @Krellan, @Narynth, @Talan, @Ashai, @Nyir, and @Urazial. Seren descended a similar number. 

Now you're lucky if you have 3. 

Anyway @Everiine I literally just pointed out 3 VA's that were raised not on sole combat ability, but due to RP and roles within the org. Usually, you're going to get a blend of RP and combat prowess.

Eritheyl

Also tbh, you don't need to be a combatant to know how to domoth, the two aren't all that relative. Like I'm holding one right now, and I'm about as useful in combat as a baby opossum. It just takes the willingness to step up and do it, and good people in your org that will give their time/resources - you won't get anywhere without them.

If you can Domoth, and are worth the assload of power your org will be dropping on you, you can VA. If you ARE an ace at combat you're that much more valuable, sure, but otherwise you aren't completely overlooked as some people seem to think you would be.

Cyndarin

I didn't even make it into the last round of VA nominations because I was too heavy on the PK side and light on the "being helpful in the org," side. Not saying that as a complaint, I don't really care about VA, but it's definitely not a PKer priority anymore (if it ever was) else I would have won hands down last round.

Riluna

I do need to look at some of the other orgs more closely. I'm speaking only from my own perspective.

I do remember quite a few times, then and now, when the people raised were those who said things like "I don't really care about RP. I just want to smash things." Especially in Serenwilde.  But the character of those (edit: decisions) that have been raised by the RP route are colored very differently than they once were. The Domoths are always a primary concern now. While they've always been an issue, certainly, it was once secondary, and wasn't really a factor in the decision. Just an added perk. 

@Aiyana's Ascension was one of my favorites, and I think she did very well with it. But even then, Gaudiguch's choice was met with mockery by a lot of the game. And even in the couple of years since, it's changed even further.

I'm not trying to talk about VA specifically, but it's the most obvious example of the more fundamental way we've changed interacting with each other. Some people just want to smash things, and that's perfectly legitimate way to play Lusternia how they want to. They enjoy what they're doing. That's the value of those actions, @Saran. We all enjoy something here, and all want our own things, on  individual and organizational levels. and those somethings often clash. That's the driving force behind all the conflict of this game, PK, RP, and IRL. It's not fair to tell people who find their fun smashing things that smashing is not a valid form of fun. It's not the only negative thing we react to. Why is that one really so different? RPers often force their RP on people where it's not wanted, too.

There have also always been circles of friends that played with each other, but now it's a lot more like insular cliques (and often OOC ones). Outside of our immediate circle of friends, we very rarely give each other anything but insults and hostility. It's really no wonder there's always somebody mad here, trying to vent their frustration. We once said more to each other than insults.

It feels like the different ways people find their own fun have forgotten how to have fun with each other from time to time, too.

Everiine

Yeah, it is pretty explicit in Serenwilde -- if you're going to be a VA, you'd better be a top combatant and you'd better win Domoths. In fact, looking at the latest list of requirements, they are a bit absurd, including:

**A fairly strong knowledge of combat in general, such as offense and
just as importantly, staying alive as long as you can; and a much
stronger knowledge/mastery of their guild(current guild and main guild
if classflexed).

**Has a proven and up to date record of demonstrative leadership skills
in conquests regarding revolts, flares and/or domoths. Any or all of
those will suffice, as it doesn't have to be all three.

**Has to be of the ninety-second circle of experience at the least.

**Held any guild leader positions in their history, but not a must.

**Very active and proactive in their works and seeks to bring in power
to the Moonhart tree regularly in some form.

Saran

Riluna said:

I'm not trying to talk about VA specifically, but it's the most obvious example of the more fundamental way we've changed interacting with each other. Some people just want to smash things, and that's perfectly legitimate way to play Lusternia how they want to. They enjoy what they're doing. That's the value of those actions, @Saran. We all enjoy something here, and all want our own things, on  individual and organizational levels. and those somethings often clash. That's the driving force behind all the conflict of this game, PK, RP, and IRL. It's not fair to tell people who find their fun smashing things that smashing is not a valid form of fun. It's not the only negative thing we react to. Why is that one really so different? RPers often force their RP on people where it's not wanted, too.

There have also always been circles of friends that played with each other, but now it's a lot more like insular cliques (and often OOC ones). Outside of our immediate circle of friends, we very rarely give each other anything but insults and hostility. It's really no wonder there's always somebody mad here, trying to vent their frustration. We once said more to each other than insults.

It feels like the different ways people find their own fun have forgotten how to have fun with each other from time to time, too.

I just do not think I will ever agree that the kick-and-run raids are valuable, they're just kinda sad.

The apparent goal of these is simply to disrupt other players, it does not drive engagement in the game, and the only time it actually becomes PK is when the attacked org goes on the offensive. As I said, this was happening for multiple hours recently and is a behavior that I feel promotes disengagement. Primarily because I feel that deciding to not care is a negative outcome, I've primarily stopped reacting to the calls, I have no interest in running over to etherwilde and away from whatever I'm doing, because the majority of the time this is a waste of my time.

Of course, on the other side the moment trees start getting chopped down, I have to care because of the work involved in restoring them.

I understand the want of something to do in the quiet times, I want to contribute to Serenwilde, and I want to help the fight against Glomdoring. I just feel there are a wide variety of better possible ways that we could encourage people to participate. And when I say participate, I do mean that if it comes to a fight there is actually a reason to stick it out because with these micro "raids", this is absent.

Saran

A question from the audience.

BF: Incidental fun is a bad way to measure anything a game, giving players god mode would be fun for them, would this make it a valuable addition to the game?

Xenthos

Wait, what?  You want to give players god-mode in a multiplayer game?  Huh?

Saran

His point was that you wouldn't do it, because while it would be fun for some people, at the least for a while, it's also not fun for others. 

Eritheyl

@Everiine

Sorry, but I don't think those requirements from Serenwilde are anywhere near absurd. You need a system, you need to know how to handle a revolt OR a flare OR a domoth...like this is baby stuff. None of those suggest anything near 'top combatant', but more basic functionality that literally everyone is capable of.