RP vs PK

Alic

Is it the same?

Does RP not validate PK?

Discuss.

Riluna said:

Maybe we need a new thread for this. There definitely is plenty of discussion to be had.

EDIT: The "mutually exclusive" thing was in reference to the "nature of the game" Celina mentioned. They used to be equally the nature of the game.

Saran

For me its primarily contextual.

Two sides engaged in a long war, marshalling their forces to strike out at each other is one thing and something that's like pk from rp basis.

Hunting down a long time enemy, who has committed great crimes against your nation, is another there's a story there. 

One person coming in and PKing people randomly (or even just killing things until anyone turns up) is kinda... flimsy for rp.

I'd fully expect Glomdoring to try to hunt down Avurekhos for example, but say Maelin... well if you were to attack her then you're just being an ahat because you want a power trip or whatever and trying to claim its rp motivated is dumb.

Shaddus

One of the problems is that pk often has tangible rewards while RP has...well, feelings of accomplishment.

Riluna

Shaddus said:

One of the problems is that pk often has tangible rewards while RP has...well, feelings of accomplishment.

I agree. We should totally bring back RP Vernals.

Saran

That being said organisational conflict in its current state is kinda dumb, it's probably another thread, but there is a point where it's not so much "bad rp" but more unhealthy or caustic rp and all sides are guilty of doing it whether they want to admit it or not.

Imposing yourself on others in the name of rp, running around killing people who really can't fight back, with no actual goal in mind. It makes one side feel good, one side feel bad, and when its escalating to the point that people are being attacked in prime territory that's kinda crappy because it makes players who can't fight feel unsafe there.

This isn't to say that we shouldn't have organisational conflict, I just wish there was like... a goal, a point to it. I want this current conflict with Glomdoring to have some tangible benefits, some achievable goals, and points where it is no longer worth it for either side to attack each other.

Sylandra

I'm going to (hopefully) hop in and out of this thread quickly.

Speaking as a pretty combat-inept person, I think playing the "roleplay police" is kind of a risky venture because it gives you the right to tell someone else they are playing the game wrong. Can a player do annoying things in the name of RP? Sure. People can be annoying for tons of reasons. RP depends on context like anything else. If you're being affected by someone's RP to the point that it angers you OOC, take a moment and wonder if you just need a break, or if that person's actions actually are detrimental to the game at large. If the latter is a concern, that's what ISSUES are for.

It bears mentioning that PK is in fact a healthy part of Lusternia. There are people who love PVP and who really do not care what the Examined of their designs look like as long as they get their enchantments handled. There are people who would rather fight with their best friends than RP a shift in alliances, and honestly, that is okay to do. Is this annoying if you're, for example, trying to RP said shift in alliances? Absolutely. But that doesn't negate the validity of those people's feelings, or the actions those feelings inspire. It's still a totally legitimate way to play the game.

However if your actions (which can honestly be either RP or PVP motivated) are leading to people quitting the game out of frustration, it is a smart idea to give yourself a good hard look and ask yourself if your behavior is healthy for the game at large. Toxicity can come from all kinds of places. I think we can agree that certain kinds of roleplay can be just as detrimental as griefy attitudes are.

Lavinya

Lusternia is supposed to be a dangerous place. I remember seeing Celina talk about everyone being carebears and not really getting it, but I do now. Conflict seems to only be allowed under certain strict parameters and conditions, otherwise it's considered bad rp, griefing, or otherwise lame. Teach your novices to always be prepared to be attacked. Teach them to run, and to shout loudly for help, and to be careful always. Be vigilant! It might be an enemy, or it may be the soulless, who knows? BE READY. And be prepared to die, since it's not that big a deal in the long run.

Saran

Shaddus said:

One of the problems is that pk often has tangible rewards while RP has...well, feelings of accomplishment.

Didn't see this before I posted my second post, but I always feel like PK, in the sense that lead to this thread, doesn't necessarily have real goals. Like, non-peaced villages, flares, domoths, wildnodes... There's a point where it stops and you've won or you've lost.

Free-form? PK is just... you kill them until either you get bored or someone quits. Someone has to make the decision to stop, which for the defenders is not the greatest feeling in the world.

Alic

I thought Lusternia was supposed to be apocalypse, we almost get eaten by Soulless every 40 years or so. I think they would make people naturally uneasy. To me it makes sense that you could die at any time. 

Riluna

One of my earliest defining moments in Lusternia was getting ganked in Prime Serenwilde. I was just sitting on the beach, and I was suddenly dead. I was a novice, just trying to read my scrolls, and thinking on the nature of life, or whatever. Then boom, dead. No words were spoken, no pleasantries or insults traded at all. Just dead, for no reason.

I could have taken it badly, feeling like this asshat was just trying to grief me me because I was there (which he probably was). Instead, it turned into one of my most longstanding rivalries I've ever had in this game. It drove me to become better, it taught me to react, to not expect that people will cater to my every whim. And in some arenas, I did become better than him. In a weird kind of way, we were hostile friends.

My point is, by and large the way you choose to react is yours alone. It's not the ganker's fault that you're mad. Being ganked can inspire more than irritation, if you want it to. It's your choice.

Silvanus

Only reason why I roleplay is to validate my inherent bloodlust in killing all of you.

Saran

Riluna said:

One of my earliest defining moments in Lusternia was getting ganked in Prime Serenwilde. I was just sitting on the beach, and I was suddenly dead. I was a novice, just trying to read my scrolls, and thinking on the nature of life, or whatever. Then boom, dead. No words were spoken, no pleasantries or insults traded at all. Just dead, for no reason.

I could have taken it badly, feeling like this asshat was just trying to grief me me because I was there (which he probably was). Instead, it turned into one of my most longstanding rivalries I've ever had in this game. It drove me to become better, it taught me to react, to not expect that people will cater to my every whim. And in some arenas, I did become better than him. In a weird kind of way, we were hostile friends.

My point is, by and large the way you choose to react is yours alone. It's not the ganker's fault that you're mad. Being ganked can inspire more than irritation, if you want it to. It's your choice.

My most recent experiences didn't actually involve any deaths from memory. 

It was primarily infuriating because I spent most of my time on the weekend trying to get xp while listening to Ladies being attacked over GT.

There was no point in me engaging either of the people who were attacking, because literally the moment they were aware anyone had turned up they would run (funnily enough they had chosen a time when there was no visible security), one would sometimes try to fight but the other...

Well I orgbix'd over to etherwilde and told them I was there, I waited a few seconds, scented, and they were out. I waited for a bit, went back to prime, and they immediately came back until I went up again.

This isn't interesting, it's just being annoying. My only options are to let the enemy slowly kill off the ladies while I'm there or log out so I can pretend I didn't know it was happening.

Alic

Saran said:

There was no point in me engaging either of the people who were attacking, because literally the moment they were aware anyone had turned up they would run (funnily enough they had chosen a time when there was no visible security), 

Don't start this, every org does this. 

Saran

Alic said:

Saran said:

There was no point in me engaging either of the people who were attacking, because literally the moment they were aware anyone had turned up they would run (funnily enough they had chosen a time when there was no visible security), 

Don't start this, every org does this. 

Yes, this is why you will note in one of my previous posts I said...

"That being said organisational conflict in its current state is kinda dumb, it's probably another thread, but there is a point where it's not so much "bad rp" but more unhealthy or caustic rp and all sides are guilty of doing it whether they want to admit it or not."

I've seen it happen to my sides, I've seen it being done to others. My issue is the action itself. 

Riluna

Saran said:

Riluna said:

One of my earliest defining moments in Lusternia was getting ganked in Prime Serenwilde. I was just sitting on the beach, and I was suddenly dead. I was a novice, just trying to read my scrolls, and thinking on the nature of life, or whatever. Then boom, dead. No words were spoken, no pleasantries or insults traded at all. Just dead, for no reason.

I could have taken it badly, feeling like this asshat was just trying to grief me me because I was there (which he probably was). Instead, it turned into one of my most longstanding rivalries I've ever had in this game. It drove me to become better, it taught me to react, to not expect that people will cater to my every whim. And in some arenas, I did become better than him. In a weird kind of way, we were hostile friends.

My point is, by and large the way you choose to react is yours alone. It's not the ganker's fault that you're mad. Being ganked can inspire more than irritation, if you want it to. It's your choice.

My most recent experiences didn't actually involve any deaths from memory. 

It was primarily infuriating because I spent most of my time on the weekend trying to get xp while listening to Ladies being attacked over GT.

There was no point in me engaging either of the people who were attacking, because literally the moment they were aware anyone had turned up they would run (funnily enough they had chosen a time when there was no visible security), one would sometimes try to fight but the other...

Well I orgbix'd over to etherwilde and told them I was there, I waited a few seconds, scented, and they were out. I waited for a bit, went back to prime, and they immediately came back until I went up again.

This isn't interesting, it's just being annoying. My only options are to let the enemy slowly kill off the ladies while I'm there or log out so I can pretend I didn't know it was happening.

I do understand this sentiment. I was there for Bitterwilde, when we were getting raided hourly. No matter what we tried to do, we were raided. We were trying to make plays, to have it disrupted by another stupid, pointless raid. Just having a conversation was interrupted by raids. It was raid, raid, raid, raid and it sucked. A lot. But a lot of this was our choice. That's really not interesting, I agree. But our choices about how to respond definitely rewarded those who were making the game hell for us.  Bitterwilde ended when we stopped being bitter, and just truly didn't give a damn anymore.

The thing about RP is that it's extremely flexible. Ignoring what you don't want to deal with is perfectly valid RP. Sometimes it doesn't feel "true" to your character, but it's really not that hard to come up with some BS about why your char reacts that way. It's also valid to pretend you didn't even notice, even if you did IRL. RP is all about pretending to do and be things we don't and aren't IRL.

It's getting harder to find people to talk to for RP. That's discouraging. It's just as discouraging for PKers when you don't give them the opportunity to have fun harrassing you. Getting angry is like candy for griefers - you're just encouraging them to go for more.

For far too long, we've let PK dominate how we've played this game. Anything else has been dropped for PK, even if we ourselves are terrible at it, or don't even like it. Decide how you want to play the game, and shape your PK or RP to suit it. Don't let other people's actions dictate it for you.

Saran

Riluna said:

Saran said:

I do understand this sentiment. I was there for Bitterwilde, when we were getting raided hourly. No matter what we tried to do, we were raided. We were trying to make plays, to have it disrupted by another stupid, pointless raid. Just having a conversation was interrupted by raids. It was raid, raid, raid, raid and it sucked. A lot. But a lot of this was our choice. That's really not interesting, I agree. But our choices about how to respond definitely rewarded those who were making the game hell for us.  Bitterwilde ended when we stopped being bitter, and just truly didn't give a damn anymore.

The thing about RP is that it's extremely flexible. Ignoring what you don't want to deal with is perfectly valid RP. Sometimes it doesn't feel "true" to your character, but it's really not that hard to come up with some BS about why your char reacts that way. It's also valid to pretend you didn't even notice, even if you did IRL. RP is all about pretending to do and be things we don't and aren't IRL.

It's getting harder to find people to talk to for RP. That's discouraging. It's just as discouraging for PKers when you don't give them the opportunity to have fun harrassing you. Getting angry is like candy for griefers - you're just encouraging them to go for more.

For far too long, we've let PK dominate how we've played this game. Anything else has been dropped for PK, even if we ourselves are terrible at it, or don't even like it. Decide how you want to play the game, and shape your PK or RP to suit it. Don't let other people's actions dictate it for you.

My issue is here that, sure some combatants understand, then you have the others who decide the appropriate reaction is to bitch on news posts. 

For me as a person, it's frustrating because the answer you've given is effectively the only one for those who can't do anything. The game will remind us constantly that we should be protecting things and as I got to see earlier some will just keep going through and killing things. 

And on top of this, there isn't discouragement unless you've able to invest in a construct. From what I've seen, if I were to actually go across and do this sort of thing in Glomdoring, eventually I would be too insane to continue. This is a perk. 

Also, regarding deciding how you want to play the game. This discussion started because someone went into enemy prime territory and attacked someone one room away from the nexus. I'm super not looking forward to what happens if the guards actually get removed from Mother.

Saran

Also, I'd raise that it's also not really cool that I can't not like this aspect of the game without it being about being "bitter".

It is frustrating and annoying, there have been complaints about this behaviour rather consistently especially as a justification for continuing to engage in it. 

So I'd ask, what true value does the ability to run into enemy 

territory only to kick something and then orgbix out actually provide to this game? Why is this behaviour worth preserving?

Niico

The problem I see is that people are very into dividing noncoms and coms as the only two things in the game. Either you can RP and don't do combat, or you can't RP and do nothing but combat, and they're content to vent themselves in blatantly OOC fashion towards you if you're a combatant. It doesn't matter what viewpoints you have or what your character does, they can run around and kill people fairly regularly so they must not have anything else to do. The time they spend learning every facet of their guild skills from their security/protectors/Champion and practising on their friends and city/commune members becomes invalid because someone else is upset that they got killed.

I'm a midbie griefer because (as Lorah pointed out quite well) I'm not even tri-trans (I do finally have two artefacts though, my pipe and vial) and I try to fight people closer to my might and level before I go attacking the people who've been in the game for actual hundreds of years and are armed up  the wazoo with tools to make themselves harder to kill and make it easier to kill me. Doesn't mean I don't attack them, it just means I'm smarter about picking fights I have a better chance at winning. And the return isn't people trying to encourage you to stay in combat and move up to higher tier combatants, it's people bad-mouthing you for not immediately starting with them to begin with. It's not seeing those same people you attack turn around and try to get better to fight or one-up you, it's them "talking shit" to you after they send their ascendants and demis to kill you and then snubbing.

I'm not upset I got kicked onto a Nexus full of guards, I thought it was a really clever trick Kyori employed to take out someone who she thought she probably couldn't stand up to. I am upset that of the four times I ran into Prime Serenwilde yesterday, only that one gets any notice, because all of the demis or 100+ year olds were smart enough to go onto their nexus and shield. 

Aeldra

This is one of the most difficult things one can discuss, and has been a problem with every RP Mud I've seen. It's a prime matter of different people wanting different things:

- There's people who enjoy besting people in combative environments. I've known people who spent hours planning on how to overcome certain classes, groups etc and trying to figure out how to best counter tactic attacks.
- There's people who just enjoy enacting situations in their characters lives in different occasions
- There's people who just enjoy to kill denizens and playing such a game hack'n'slay style

Most people have a bit of those three 'groups' in them, more often leaning towards one or another more heavily. The problem that usually people who are just looking to the 'acting' side usually clash with those 'tactic' types. And you see it here too.

Now, each of these people has their own RP, their own goals and motivations both IC and OOC and most of them are valid. Sure there are always griefers, but heck, why care about griefers. As @Riluna pointed out, giving griefers anger for what they are doing is just encouraging them. Luckily real griefers are very seldom. The problem, from my point of view, is that the 'acting' side is loosing members, either by being fed up or other reasons, thus weakening other 'acting' people, because you get less chance to get back at the 'tactic' people.

Sure you'll be angry when somebody kills you that's a lot stronger then yourself and the reason you perceive is being a member of the wrong Org. And honestly, I on their stead would've found a different way, but Lusternia's a dangerous place and there's people where being a member of a certain Org is a death sentence. So, what do? Ideally, you note yourself of the person who slaughtered you and you'll start pulling your own strings to get back at them. That doesn't neccesarily mean to learn how to fight. As long as there's other 'acting' people around, you can build leverage. It'll not be quick and maybe you aren't successful, but... it can be very fun and in the same time invigorating for the game..

What do I mean by that ? Well, there's alliances, there's friendships and there, well, incidents. Your options range from getting someone to get you that murderers heart to figuring out how to successfully bombard their village runs to bombarding their money income to ... get creative. My main gripe is, that only works with other people being willing to be your accomplice or rival and being willing to be influenced by what you have to say. That usually tend to be people who learn more towards the 'acting' part, then 'tactical' people.

I guess, the summary of what am trying to say: Don't ignore people who kill you, instead, unite with others, knit informant nets, find accomplices, get plotting, have their peers hand their ass to you.

edit: That all's meant as target to non-newbs. Newbies.. I'm sorry, I don't get people killing newbies unless they are really really asking for them and then I can still think a 100 better ways to punish them then kill them. Give people time to learn our game and be part of it, before you turn your focus on them, please.
edit2: I define newb as someone who's well below level 50 and or less then an OOC month in the game.

Aeldra

Niico said:

The problem I see is that people are very into dividing noncoms and coms as the only two things in the game. Either you can RP and don't do combat, or you can't RP and do nothing but combat, and they're content to vent themselves in blatantly OOC fashion towards you if you're a combatant. It doesn't matter what viewpoints you have or what your character does, they can run around and kill people fairly regularly so they must not have anything else to do. The time they spend learning every facet of their guild skills from their security/protectors/Champion and practising on their friends and city/commune members becomes invalid because someone else is upset that they got killed.

I'm a midbie griefer because (as Lorah pointed out quite well) I'm not even tri-trans (I do finally have two artefacts though, my pipe and vial) and I try to fight people closer to my might and level before I go attacking the people who've been in the game for actual hundreds of years and are armed up  the wazoo with tools to make themselves harder to kill and make it easier to kill me. Doesn't mean I don't attack them, it just means I'm smarter about picking fights I have a better chance at winning. And the return isn't people trying to encourage you to stay in combat and move up to higher tier combatants, it's people bad-mouthing you for not immediately starting with them to begin with. It's not seeing those same people you attack turn around and try to get better to fight or one-up you, it's them "talking shit" to you after they send their ascendants and demis to kill you and then snubbing.

I'm not upset I got kicked onto a Nexus full of guards, I thought it was a really clever trick Kyori employed to take out someone who she thought she probably couldn't stand up to. I am upset that of the four times I ran into Prime Serenwilde yesterday, only that one gets any notice, because all of the demis or 100+ year olds were smart enough to go onto their nexus and shield. 

I do agree with you on some parts. It's logical and smart to pick fights that are leveled out, on an OOC level because it's more fun for both involved, it has thril and the chance you have at winning is good. IC, your character would likely not pick a fight with someone who's a million times stronger then you either.

I do partly disagree about the 'talking shit to you'. You killed somebody, you should be ready to receive IC based anger. If someone would harm you in real life, would you be nice and nod to them for their accomplishment? I think not. On an OOC base scale, bad talk should not be happening, though, which in my eyes, is a problem with IC/OOC separation and IC anger turning into OOC hate, which I see a lot around here.

My statement has always been, you are playing a game together and while that can mean being plotted IC against each other, with displays of extreme rage and hatred, it should never stay on OOC. Being pissed on being killed where you perceive you'd have no chance to defend is fine. Blurting on that person Icly for what they've done is fine. Taking the whole thing OOC apart of 'nicely executed' or 'heck, how did I lose so quickly?' is NOT fine.

Can't judge your case whether or not you are a "griefer", though my experience, actual griefers are very rare, thankfully.

Kethaera

Niico said:

The problem I see is that people are very into dividing noncoms and coms as the only two things in the game. Either you can RP and don't do combat, or you can't RP and do nothing but combat, and they're content to vent themselves in blatantly OOC fashion towards you if you're a combatant. It doesn't matter what viewpoints you have or what your character does, they can run around and kill people fairly regularly so they must not have anything else to do. The time they spend learning every facet of their guild skills from their security/protectors/Champion and practising on their friends and city/commune members becomes invalid because someone else is upset that they got killed.

I'm a midbie griefer because (as Lorah pointed out quite well) I'm not even tri-trans (I do finally have two artefacts though, my pipe and vial) and I try to fight people closer to my might and level before I go attacking the people who've been in the game for actual hundreds of years and are armed up  the wazoo with tools to make themselves harder to kill and make it easier to kill me. Doesn't mean I don't attack them, it just means I'm smarter about picking fights I have a better chance at winning. And the return isn't people trying to encourage you to stay in combat and move up to higher tier combatants, it's people bad-mouthing you for not immediately starting with them to begin with. It's not seeing those same people you attack turn around and try to get better to fight or one-up you, it's them "talking shit" to you after they send their ascendants and demis to kill you and then snubbing.

I'm not upset I got kicked onto a Nexus full of guards, I thought it was a really clever trick Kyori employed to take out someone who she thought she probably couldn't stand up to. I am upset that of the four times I ran into Prime Serenwilde yesterday, only that one gets any notice, because all of the demis or 100+ year olds were smart enough to go onto their nexus and shield. 

You can't demand that anyone in the game will try to get better to fight you, though. The fact that that's what your response would be should not lead to a judgment against those who would never learn combat, or even never learn it well enough to be competitive. For those people?- why wouldn't they send demis or ascendents to kill you? Isn't that the whole point of having dedicated combatants in an org? Can't really have an opinion on shit-talking conversations or snubbing reasons I didn't witness, so just to say... not everyone will learn to fight, and not everyone wants to. 

For those people, being attacked "because they're killable/orgs are at war" is frustrating. I may not be a non-com, but I don't particularly enjoy pk for it's own sake the way some people do, so the constant pk with no purpose or end goal gets boring to me after a while. That doesn't imply that those who are engaging in it have "bad roleplay" or that those who aren't are "playing the game wrong"- so try to be understanding to the other side and why you may get negative reactions for targetting those who aren't actively engaging in the pk side of conflict. And I know someone will twist that into my saying that only pkers should get pked, and no, that's not the point either. But different people have different motivations to play, and expecting someone to react to a situation the same way you would is unreasonable. If you want to interact with them, find out what does motivate them to play.

At the same time, in the current Seren/Glom war, I haven't seen much in the way of either side attempting to stop the fighting... and if you're one of the people bothered by it, maybe you should? Roleplay and such? My view is, if you're not inclined to pk, then seeking to stop pking from happening makes sense for your character, regardless of how much you hate the other side IC. Same is true for the pkers. OOC motivations should dictate IC motivations, imo, as that will tend to make you happier in the long run.

Xenthos

Yep. If you do not like the conflict, the appropriate response is to RP it out, starting with your own organization. Serenwilde, like the Glomdoring, has plenty of people who will gladly harass / attack the other side excessively, declare that they are completely innocent of exacerbating the situation themselves (example: a certain tracker guilty of spiking tons of heads in Faethorn who then likes Seren-posts going "Why are we getting attacked?!"), and contributing to an atmosphere of constant strife. That is not to say it is a bad thing, because it is meant to be a conflict game. That conflict should absolutely drive internal org RP, however! That is also part of the game, and the more interesting one from my standpoint.

Lerad

I think most of the complaints derive from one place: the fact that you can be attacked, and therefore killed, for nothing other than belonging to a certain organisation. The peripheral arguments, that there is no lead up to it, no emotes or conversation beforehand or after the fact, are just that: peripheral arguments. The fact of the matter is, many people, primarily people who enjoy PK, feel that organisational affiliation is enough reason, or justification, or RP, for their actions.

And in most cases, they are correct. Even if you personally didn't do anything beyond walking to the Grey Moors and kill some krokani, or influence some aslaran, by logical extension of the definition of being "at war", you're an open target - and by being alive, your character has implicitly agreed to be hunted by an enemy - the state of being alive is, after all, a state an enemy would like to 'remedy'.

I have absolutely no problem with this line of thought, as unreasonable as it may seem. It is, in my books, even perfectly fine to do this to newbies, simply because of the existence of Avenger and the one-kill per month mechanic it brings to the table. However, as a community, we do draw some lines in the sand. Newbies, generally speaking, are not valid targets. Well, some people still target them in their rages or angry moments or whatever. But like I mentioned, at least there is a safety net to prevent repeat performances.

In short, what I am saying is that the problem, for me, comes not in the RP->PK transition that these complaints are pointing at. I find there to be no issue at all in the RP->PK transition of Niico attacking Aeralis or Kyori or whoever is available at hand when Niico is raiding. Similarly, for when Avurekhos and whoever he brings along does the same to whoever is in Glom when they decide to raid. It's not even in the timing - obviously choosing timings when no one is around, that's perfectly fine, kicking and running, perfectly fine... from a combatant point of view, people who do that are simply sub-par combatants who aren't interested in combat, worthy of ridicule, but not quite running afoul of censure. I have little respect for people who do that not because of the circumstances of their logins, but specifically to aim at the lack of resistance - but as far as I am concerned, it's not something I'm going to hand out pitchforks for.

What the problem is would be the thin line between such actions and harassment. The beauty of this game is how the RP and PK perspectives are actually so intertwined that it takes a twitch to cross from a talk into a fight to the death. You could literally use the twitch emote, and someone could attack (and kill) you for it. Most PK actions in this game is pretty much RP backed and motivated. However, that is also in itself a problem - it is so easy to shift from an RP stance, even just by standing around, into a PK action, that things can become harassing very fast. I'm not even talking about those... unsavoury individuals who proudly profess to be "trolling" or whatever sad, pathetic words they use, I'm talking about even normal, aspiring or established combatants being labelled as harassers simply because escalating their actions by a slight degree pushes it from being purposely antagonistic to one of harassment.

Granted, such scenarios don't happen all the time. You don't see people saying Kelly or Shuyin or Akyaevin are griefing assholes all THAT often (or at least, there certainly isn't a consensus that they are such from the channels, IC and OOC, that I can hear) but you can bet they have done things that would be considered squarely in the griefy apartment. Similarly, the opposite is true. From my point of view, Niico isn't very established as a combatant, not just because she doesn't have trans skills, but also simply because she doesn't take part in combat as often. She simply isn't around to fight as often. Yet she has a reputation of being griefy. It's most certainly her own fault, of course. I don't go around raiding Prime Serenwilde all that often (even though I do feel like it sometimes) and I doubt I'll attack Aeralis if she's there while I'm there. But at the same time, I most certainly HAVE raided Prime Serenwilde before, and attacked people in there, who were just standing around until I came in, before.

One question we need to mull over as a community is where to draw the line. Again, this isn't referring to people who do something like kick-and-run or time off-peak raids unendingly for months on the end - we don't need to draw lines on the sand for them when they're swimming miles out in the sea. We can go ahead and nuke them, no need for questions or mulling. But what is "acceptable" and what is "not acceptable" for cases where it's a matter of degree? Maybe 10 spiked heads is acceptable, but 11 is not? Or maybe a timeframe, where 2 flamed standards every 24 hours for 50 days is acceptable, but 100 in 30 minutes is not? These are questions that are not really answerable, and for as long as they remain like this, the perceived problem of some actions being "RP justified" and others not will remain.

Cyndarin

I've been saying it for years: the worst thing you can teach a new player is that death to another player is a problem and/or big deal when it is emphatically not. I'll be clear on this-when you teach a newbie to make a big deal about dying, be it IG or by causing a stink on the forums a la a whiney quote, you do more to drive that player away than the person killed them did. 

Systemic targeting of new players is bad, and also exceedingly rare. It's one of the few times I've seen the admin get involved in the PK environment and tell someone to cut it out. People are far too eager to hand out that title to anyone they dislike, or are attempting to condemn, over an otherwise harmless incident. Hell, I've been given that label on a few occasions by people that don't like me. Killing a lowbie is literally all you need to be called a griefer. I, personally, prefer the term indiscriminate murderess, but apparently that's not as catchy.

I remember when I first started playing and going off prime as a non com or inexperienced combatant was just not a thing you did unless you wanted to die. It was literally in the help files that off prime was a dangerous place, and they meant it. Even then I managed to die all the time to the PK crowd.

You'll hear a lot on these forums from non coms about how terrible and griefy the evil PKers are for PKing and forcing sweet and innocent non coms into conflict with their terribad RP. The reality is quite the opposite. When considering the documented history of diminishing conflict mechanics, and the source of those changes generally being loud non coms condemning the PKers for whatever they did (admittedly, some complaints were justified), we actually see that dedicated PKers are on the decline over many, many years which has ultimately brought about a less active playerbase. In essence, the anti conflict crowd has complained enough to push out the PK crowd, and I don't think that truth really ever gets acknowledged during these discussions. The game is also damn quiet now, and we all suffered for it, so mission accomplished I guess.

It's somewhat inconvenient to state in this argument that the decline of PK also means the decline of activity within the game. You need only look at Lusternia's history and Achaea right now to understand that Lusternia requires conflict to function, and PK as an extension of that conflict is certainly a valid form of RP. It's a NECESSARY form of RP.

edit:obligatory you kids have it so easy. It's fascinating having played for so long to see how the term "greifer" has evolved. When I was new, griefer was a titled reserved for a dedicated few who took PK to a whole new level. Where now a "griefer" is just anyone you don't like that killed your friend once or twice or prime raided and they didn't RP it with me omg that's so mean , old world griefers exploited mechanics and loopholes to such levels that you just had to respect them despite how much you hated them. They would hand you your own ass in new, unexplored ways. You would participate in a village revolt and spend the next RL month getting summoned into inescapable kill rooms, they would pair up and one would icewall you into an area while the other inquisitioned you and then they'd swap places once you liched. They'd use tarot to drag you into their special cubix room from etherglom and murder you so that no one could come save you. They broke into the special exit beneath the cosmic pool of stars and raised a shrine and meld, and then proceeded to camp Celestia for 24 RL hours. They would meld a nexus and use Pollute to break anyone's shield and group staff cast/zap anyone to death before they recovered equilibrium. They would group zap titans while they bashed (and @shuyin is still a dillhole for that one) and force them to grind undervault tunnel trash for a month just to get demigod.

You might not have agreed with everything they did, but looking back, I appreciate them because they drove the game forward. They forced players and admin alike to respond and adapt, to continuously improve themselves and the game by being one step ahead of most of the playerbase. People can call me a griefer, I don't care. Though I don't think myself anywhere near the level of skill and creativity of griefers past, that's a badge I'll happily display. At the very least, griefers make the game exciting.

Everiine

Celina said:

You'll hear a lot on these forums from non coms about how terrible and griefy the evil PKers are for PKing and forcing sweet and innocent non coms into conflict with their terribad RP. The reality is quite the opposite. When considering the documented history of diminishing conflict mechanics, and the source of those changes generally being loud non coms condemning the PKers for whatever they did (admittedly, some complaints were justified), we actually see that dedicated PKers are on the decline over many, many years which has ultimately brought about a less active playerbase. In essence, the anti conflict crowd has complained enough to push out the PK crowd, and I don't think that truth really ever gets acknowledged during these discussions. The game is also damn quiet now, and we all suffered for it, so mission accomplished I guess.

It's somewhat inconvenient to state in this argument that the decline of PK also means the decline of activity within the game. You need only look at Lusternia's history and Achaea right now to understand that Lusternia requires conflict to function, and PK as an extension of that conflict is certainly a valid form of RP. It's a NECESSARY form of RP.

Many of the diminishing conflict mechanics came about though when a few outliers used and abused the shit out of the conflict mechanics until things were so out of hand that they required intervention. It's the same cycle we see in other areas of the game--overdone actions lead to overdone reactions lead to overdone reactions lead to overdone reactions lead to overdone reactions... on both sides, the strong RPers who push back against relentless PK, and the strong PKers who push the systems in place to their breaking points, the pitchforks get raised.

Ayisdra

Alic said:

I thought Lusternia was supposed to be apocalypse, we almost get eaten by Soulless every 40 years or so. I think they would make people naturally uneasy. To me it makes sense that you could die at any time. 

The thing is, we -always- survive/win. I would even be willing to bet the admin don't even have a plan if we all (somehow) threw up our hands and let the Soulless take over. This 'threat' doesn't really give much of a end-of-days feeling when there is really no real danger at all because we always win and the fact that as fated races, we just reform easily

---

If PK is a valid form of rp is a minor point. A non-combatant cannot talk their way out of PK, they cannot even get an attempt out before being killed. If someone wants to play a character who is good at talking their way out of things, I would say it is nearly impossible to do it (admittedly this is partly on a mechanic level as well). That said, the game can't make everyone happy all the time and have these non-combatant/combatant mix - the nature of conflict will turn people away and it will keep some around.

You can debate all day that a combatant who doesn't min-max for their class is doing it wrong (and that the game would be more fun if they min-max'd correctly) just as you can argue that a non-combatant is less helpful in the long run for an org.

Zvoltz

Ayisdra said:

Alic said:

I thought Lusternia was supposed to be apocalypse, we almost get eaten by Soulless every 40 years or so. I think they would make people naturally uneasy. To me it makes sense that you could die at any time. 

The thing is, we -always- survive/win. I would even be willing to bet the admin don't even have a plan if we all (somehow) threw up our hands and let the Soulless take over.

Reboot to first version of the game released from beta, no refunds on lost artifacts/characters.

Siam

In a way, some people RP through PK and some people PK through RP. 

Bandeon

Ayisdra said:

Alic said:

I thought Lusternia was supposed to be apocalypse, we almost get eaten by Soulless every 40 years or so. I think they would make people naturally uneasy. To me it makes sense that you could die at any time. 

The thing is, we -always- survive/win. I would even be willing to bet the admin don't even have a plan if we all (somehow) threw up our hands and let the Soulless take over. This 'threat' doesn't really give much of a end-of-days feeling when there is really no real danger at all because we always win and the fact that as fated races, we just reform easily

---

If PK is a valid form of rp is a minor point. A non-combatant cannot talk their way out of PK, they cannot even get an attempt out before being killed. If someone wants to play a character who is good at talking their way out of things, I would say it is nearly impossible to do it (admittedly this is partly on a mechanic level as well). That said, the game can't make everyone happy all the time and have these non-combatant/combatant mix - the nature of conflict will turn people away and it will keep some around.

You can debate all day that a combatant who doesn't min-max for their class is doing it wrong (and that the game would be more fun if they min-max'd correctly) just as you can argue that a non-combatant is less helpful in the long run for an org.

That's the thing about Lusternia now vs. when I first start playing. None of the conflict mechanics feel like they mean anything. Every org is coasting on a couple million power, comms are plentiful... I hate to play the "you kids have it easy" card, but I remember being able to forge an actual real big boy weapon as a big deal because getting the comms for them was a community wide effort. I kind of wonder what would happen if next Ascension Kethuru ate ALL of the power. Would we get more meaningful conflict then?

Shuyin

No. Because conflict is stifled on many fronts.

Definitely still a dillhole, just a bored one.

Siam

Shuyin said:

No. Because conflict is stifled on many fronts. Definitely still a dillhole, just a bored one.

Can we start the back in my day posts re: PK now?