You're right, we need to provide damage feedback, but how can we provide accurate, meaningful feedback until the entire skillset is in play?
You also forgot to emphasize the part where he said 'the most fine-tuning to get to a good spot'
The admin will make the final call about whether or not to adjust damage, I'm simply stating that any adjustments now are adjustments made without full insight into the skillset. Feel free to disagree, but you dancing around that doesn't change that fact.
Just incase my view isn't clear. 1. I think 500 damage every 3~3.5 seconds is too low. 2. I think any abilities that can turn 500 damage into a more reasonable number will be too high of a multiplier. 3. I really don't know if the base damage that all warriors do should be in the 1,000 range or the 1500 range at a max health of 12k Mainly because I don't know how much Health potion+scroll + sparkleberry heals.
I don't know what else to tell you but a low level wound that is easily done and counts towards your kill condition is meaningful enough to me. It also helps stack ice affs.
It's a physical affliction. It's not necessarily unique to blademasters. It's an affliction that is supposed to increase bleeding, which it technically does, but is easily clotted away. If monks are to make use of the affliction or other warrior specs, it should be at least a bit significant.
I was the one who tested the stuff with Daganev, and from my own comparison with current warrior mechanics, I agree that the damage seems on the low side. I think it's good to keep that in mind as we move forward - generally, we don't want to make any changes yet, but keeping an eye open for tweaking it upwards as Ieptix goes into coding the rest of the specs will be a good idea.
I can see where Shu is coming from with internal bleeding. Right now, it IS a very sweet affliction. It gives +100 bleeding every 5 seconds or so, and that can add up to be quite a lot... if combined with other bleed afflictions. Alone, however, that will not pressure mana at all (keeping up via regeneration alone is almost possible) and especially not with the minimal damage of BMs mentioned above. Of course, if it is intended just as a stacking affliction, it plays its role, taking up an ice cure. Old BMs used to have a more viable bleed strategy, which is where I got confused at the lack of such for the overhaul BMs.
If we're not going to go for bleed for BMs, that's fine as well, as long as they have their own viable kill scenarios. Shuyin's more experienced than me with warriors, and most of the new skillsets were proposed by him, so I'll defer to him on this point. It should be noted, though, it's definitely possible to tweak BM a bit to make bleed viable for them (a little more damage to pressure health, up the bleeding via another one or two bleeding aff to pressure mana, and tada, a bleed strategy becomes theoretically available).
I saw the "intensity" skill in the Google excel, but I didn't see it in the list posted by Ieptix here, so I guess it isn't coded in yet. If it is coming soon, then that would be great. With the high aff rate (with poisons) of BM, a scaling damage boost based on afflictions could be another good end-game scenario.
Just to add on to discussion about haymaker, right now it's not a very good ability at all. It's basically 4 lunges (with an extra cost and slower balance) but which is blockable by parry. You could, theoretically, spend 10p to get 4 wounds on your own arms when you hit coule using haymaker, and leave the opponent unharmed. Making it go through parry is the simplest fix, but if BMs are going to be aff-based, making it give low wounds but a burst of afflictions might be a good way to synergize with intensity (when it gets put in).
Oh, and one last thing I forgot to mention, stab needs to be changed to go through shrugging. Right now, it ensures 100% poison transfer, but doesn't affect shrugging, so I could shrug a stabbed poison, making it very unreliable and not really worth using.
I've messed around with the new blademaster but without making a quick curing system, aliases and figuring out the general flow of it, I cannot give a good, honest assessment of the skillset yet and reserve my comments for a later time.
In regards to the conversation on damage: As we've moved healing wounds away from health, there is no longer a reason to keep warrior damage low. However, to be fair to other classes, I also do not see why we deserve the ability to do afflictions, wounds and then also significant damage. I'd propose just including a single specific damage attack in each specialization skillset that does nothing but damage and can be used for bashing.
So of what I have seen the two problems I see so far:
- Rising damage based on affs, when warriors will 100% outpace all curing is a terrible idea. This is just asking for stupid versions of groups (right now there are some mechanics to help with wounds in groups and there is no rising damage).
- Mutilated leg should NOT come with a stun. 3s stun? 3s cure? One hit and I'm down for 8s when wounds are ALWAYS going to build? The stun alone all but guarantees I missed out on curing. This falls under slippery slope (the person losing will begin losing more quickly)*, and is bad design.
- In order to prevent some stacking, weakenedleg (if not already) should be ungivable and removed on a leg that becomes mutilated (how broken and mangle work now).
* Slippery Slope means the winner is going to get more potential to win. For instance in the pokemon card game, you get a card if you knock out an opponents, so the winning player now has more resources. An aff that stops you for 3s from attacking is bad enough, add in stun and there is 6s you cannot attack me, and I delayed the cure 3s as well.
- The opposite to slippery slope is called perpetual comeback, where the loser is given a better position to win from. Example of this is games like duelmasters where if I take a hit I get an extra card.
EDIT: Btw, stun is from coding the aff as amputate instead of a mangle. Stun is bad. When monks convert affs over, you will NOT want stuns as a natural part of it, PB might deserve a short stun to reflect their fewer hits, but definitely not BM.
It's not a 3s stun. As I recall it was 2.1-2.3s, variable, or maybe it was latency.
Anything less than a 4s cure (meaning you are guaranteed the next hit due to prone without passive hindering/movement), and the synergy and usefulness of the skill goes right out the window.
I don't see an issue with a 5s prone when it takes so many levels to build up to critical. For example, you can burn 10 power into legs in a row, WITHOUT CURING, and you still need 50% more (5 more levels) to hit critical. At least when the aff happens, it should bloody be meaningful.
So an immediate concern I have is the inability to reapply to a place while waiting. Currently you can apply health while waiting on regeneration, in the new systems if I have crit wounds and a mutilated leg, if I apply for the leg then apply WOUNDS when I get balance, it stops the old apply. This means if you get something like mutilated:
- 2-3s stun, all curing delayed 3s. (clarified, it was 2.4 in testing)
- Apply for cure, this will take 3s more, during which you cannot cure wounds.
- You can be hit in the same spot for further wounds to keep you from being able to cure since you have 6s before apply.
I understand the idea is you got to crit, yay! However the fight is not over, since they WILL hit critical if they really want to.
I also reiterate my concern of having a poison that causes a lucidity slush cure. As an opening combo with power used and 2 poisons is 6 applications worth of damage in one move (of which you can apply twice). It did not appear to state that the broken leg would stop attacking, so that part won't stop fighting back as mutilated does. More testing coming too! Those are the thus far notes.
Yay concise mechanics! I am theorycrafting here, take all numbers with a grain of salt.
Poisons:
- If broken leg is converted to an affliction (weakened leg?) and you can have both weakened and mutilated leg, that means in one combo you can get 3 afflictions (we will assume second strikes potential for an aff so you can do a wound with one hit and aff with other) that all have ice cures, plus the wounds from the other hit. You are 4 cures behind and you'll be hit again in 3.5s. This affliction rate is far too high for the cure time. Provided weakenedleg is becoming a poison affliction.
Afflictions:
- Does weakened leg stop standing? This is the version I assume is replacing broken leg, which is used by other classes.
- Most attacks are stopped by not having two working legs, so if you can too readily stack afflictions, then mutilatedleg spam will stop any actions.
Cure Delay: - Having afflictions that delay cure balance and delayed cures on those skills means they are put behind almost instantly. Specifically I am requesting more concise information on
the delay and effect of damagedorgans (@ieptix). There is also no reason for this skill to delay every cure method, and that is probably an area of concern that it is.
- Having a 3s delay on an affliction that stops attacks with attacks every 3.5 (is this modifiable with combat stance, and is it subject to the current dex system which could make this be 3s attack speed on a 3s aff?.
- You can still apply to other areas and for WOUNDS on an area while waiting on its cured, correct? I have mutilated leg at crit, I can apply ice for WOUNDS when I get balance back?
Bashing:
- The slower attacks means the damage needs to rise slightly to compensate. A pureblade bashes better than a blademaster, but both will be crappier than a mage at demigod.* (Explanation at bottom, and I am guessing at some numbers that I will note, if the numbers are actually off it tweaks slightly).
@Daganevs question: - I think I understand the question. Assuming parry does not happen and I target your chest and spam, where do we end up? At 3.5s an attack you do 2 wounds as any spec base or 1 wound per 1.75s. You will outpace applications, more so if you have to cure even a single affliction. So poisons will put you behind rapidly. Power attacks will mess this up more. Stuns will further worsen this issue.
- Because of these, you will reliably outpace anyone who is not hindering you noticeably.
Monks (not brought up but putting this out there):
- We are going to do some write ups to try to convert to the new system.
- We will have some skills rely on wounds.
- Some insta's may be aimed at using wounds and afflictions as pre-reqs as the warrior design is.
- Unless told otherwise, we are using the kata form system as it is currently made.
- Estarra said something about losing momentum dropping to 0, if that is intended we will likely steer away from it or request much higher ka at low momentum (3 forms of raze is boring for everyone).
- Monkish is going FULLY OPEN, anyone will be able to join so we can get more feedback. When we have a good sign off on things we will post it to the overhaul forum.
How fast are wounds intended to stack? Should you be crit in under 20 seconds? 30? a minute? Where is the goal on this right now?
* Explanation on bashing:
- So we draw some conclusions: We are ignoring weakness/resistance, though there is more physical resist than weakness by fair margin from what I've seen) and we are assuming the intended damage on every player is EQUAL. Aka a mage does 1000 a staff, a blademaster would do 500 a hit, a monk would do 300 a hand and 400 for kick.
- The average damage of a player is then (everyones crit rate should theoretically be equal):
dam (%normalHit) + dam ( %critHit * 2) + dam (%CrushingHit * 4) + dam ( %OblitHit * 8) + dam ( % AnniHit * 16) + dam (%worldHit * 32).
Where
dam = normal damage of a hit.
Each % hit is non crit, critical, crushing critical, obliterating critical, annihilating critical, and world shattering critical, respectively.
- Notice this means you can factor OUT damage, and simplify this to dam * ( (%normalHit) + ( %critHit * 2) + (%CrushingHit * 4) + ( %OblitHit * 8) + ( % AnniHit * 16) + (%worldHit * 32).)
- A warrior would do this twice, once for each weapon hit. Monks would do this 3 times, etc.
- Whips are notably stronger than most bashing, so we are assuming no whips.
- This means that while the average damage should be EQUAL, given equal total damage, multi hitters should have a smaller margin of variation (more crits means closer to the theoretical more often).
- This system only assumes base damage, then we run into damageShift. 1000 * 32 is a lot more damage than 500 or 300 * 32. At this point casters win provided they have another target.
- The most disadvantaged is monk at demigod, because you get 3 weak hits, but if 1 hit kills it, rest are ignored. If I crit on 300, I get the rest of only that hit left to carry damage. Mages get their full damage carried, etc. So while average damage should be equal if they do the same base damage total, the fewer hits will get faster results unless they hit at noticably different speeds. Bards, if they hit at the same level as casters, would be the winners.
Disclaimer: If all attacks are aimed at the same DPS, then this information should hold over time theoretically. it gets really messy really fast, but hopefully that helps at least. I am a monk, I bash much faster with a whip, period.
Regarding cure speeds: I'm lowering the speed on ice to 1.5s (in line with the other cures), and I am considering changing the way ice applications work thusly: if the user is on ice balance and isn't currently in the state of applying ice to a limb, nothing changes. However, if the user is on ice balance and is trying to apply to a limb they've already applied to and are waiting for a cure on, then the application will just automatically cure do a wound cure and leave the affliction cure alone. This way it's still possible to cure down wounds on a highly-wounded and afflicted limb, but it remains impossible to shotgun-cure afflictions on a limb by chaining ice. Would this help some with the curing issues?
Regarding weakened limbs: These are meant to be exact copies of the current vanilla broken limb afflictions - anything that is stopped by a broken limb should be stopped by a weakened limb. Note that there may be instances where this doesn't currently happen, which would be a bug (and is due to the way the basic limb afflictions are currently handled, which makes searching for them in the code less-than-trivial).
Regarding damaged organs: This is currently a .5s increase for all the overhaul-related balances (so 1.5s to 2s when afflicted). This is something that can be tweaked easily if it's too little or too much. I've also contemplated making it scale based on gut wounds, but if a static value suffices I'd rather avoid the extra complexity.
Regarding attack/afflicting speed: Dexterity has no effect on overhaul warrior speed at all. If mutilated leg spam (or the critical wound cure delay in general) can be demonstrated to be overwhelming even against smart curing/parrying/hindering, we can look into lowering it some.
Regarding bashing: This is something we'll tweak as necessary once released. The initial values will be intended to put damage somewhere in the ballpark of caster damage.
So this is a minor thing, but the new commands don't work in Org arenas (at least not in the Halli arena). Would it be possible to enable them there? Thanks.
Are you using the CHALLENGE <person> OVERHAUL syntax? I don't see anything in the code that should be limiting anything in org arenas.
Either I'm not understanding Eviscerate correctly, or it's being buggy.
It seems to not be counting Sickening as an internal affliction, and not counting either weakenedleg or slitthroat as an external affliction.
Did you have two internal affs on the target? You only list one here - eviscerate is crit chest + 2 internal + 2 physical. Can anyone else confirm if eviscerate is failing when it shouldn't be?
And in the case where the target has the pre-req and the target already has the affliction, can it revert to doing wounds? It seems currently it does only damage and bleeding.
Regarding cure speeds: I'm lowering the speed on ice to 1.5s (in line with the other cures), and I am considering changing the way ice applications work thusly: if the user is on ice balance and isn't currently in the state of applying ice to a limb, nothing changes. However, if the user is on ice balance and is trying to apply to a limb they've already applied to and are waiting for a cure on, then the application will just automatically cure do a wound cure and leave the affliction cure alone. This way it's still possible to cure down wounds on a highly-wounded and afflicted limb, but it remains impossible to shotgun-cure afflictions on a limb by chaining ice. Would this help some with the curing issues?
Regarding weakened limbs: These are meant to be exact copies of the current vanilla broken limb afflictions - anything that is stopped by a broken limb should be stopped by a weakened limb. Note that there may be instances where this doesn't currently happen, which would be a bug (and is due to the way the basic limb afflictions are currently handled, which makes searching for them in the code less-than-trivial).
Regarding damaged organs: This is currently a .5s increase for all the overhaul-related balances (so 1.5s to 2s when afflicted). This is something that can be tweaked easily if it's too little or too much. I've also contemplated making it scale based on gut wounds, but if a static value suffices I'd rather avoid the extra complexity.
Regarding attack/afflicting speed: Dexterity has no effect on overhaul warrior speed at all. If mutilated leg spam (or the critical wound cure delay in general) can be demonstrated to be overwhelming even against smart curing/parrying/hindering, we can look into lowering it some.
Lowering it to 1.5s will help, yes, and allowing wounds to be cured without resetting the affliction currently being cured makes sense to me as well. I think 1.5s is a good place to do more testing with. When I tested with Daganev with just wounds (and power attacks) alone, he had no problem building to critical... but over a long period of time, and I had no problem prioritizing bodyparts to keep them at light wounds instead of medium wounds... but the measure is also eventually outpaced. I think that was an okay balance of wound building speed. That was, of course, without parrying, hindering or poisons, and with me manually applying, but the feel was okayish.
Just one request, Ieptix. Could you enable dendroxin and calcise to give weakened limbs instead of broken limbs when in overhaul arena mode? We couldn't test it with poisons because it was still giving the mending cure affliction instead of the ice cure affliction.
1. Blademasters don't do enough bleeding damage, even with internalbleding affliction to seriously be able to kill someone with it. I think the easiest solution would be to increase bleeding with overall wound levels.
2. Without the poisons being converted to the overhaul afflictions it's hard to know if ice balance needs to be lowered.
3. Haymaker needs to be adjusted. It's too risky and not enough benefit. After throwing some ideas around, the one we liked best as a starting point is that haymaker gives one wound and the light wounds affliction to everybody part. Still blockable by parry. It works nicely because the blademaster actually has an affliction for each body part at the light wounds level. It's effectively 14 seconds of curing delay for 10 power and ~6ish seconds.
I played around with adding forging runes, nightkiss and being Igasho. It made each attack roughly 3.1 seconds.
Remiss is a handy skill when timed nicely. It would be nicer if after spending power you didn't also have to waste ~2 seconds waiting for it to line up with your next attack. Giving it the same delay as your balance recovery time would be nice.
One combo seems to do between 400-600 damage, and I'm not sure that's enough damage even with damage boosting abilities. (Unless of course the damage boosting abilities do something like 300% damage, but that seems unreasonable to assume)
Regarding bleeding: Blademasters are not meant to focus on bleeding, and particularly aren't really meant to kill with it. Internal bleeding is in place basically to help with eviscerate reqs and in groups. I will note however that internal bleeding causes a geometric increase in a target's bleeding over time, so its effectiveness as a bleed-increasing affliction will scale to the other bleeding capabilities of the attacker (e.g. it will be much more effective in the hands of a pureblade).
Regarding poisons: I'll change up the poisons to give weakened limbs when the target is flagged for overhaul.
Regarding haymaker: I'm not terribly keen on having haymaker attack all body parts, and I think I'd rather keep its basic functionality as-is (i.e. burst damage/wounds/poisons) unless there's a reasonable amount of evidence that this isn't going to work. Things I can do right now include giving it a larger chance to bypass parry, lowering/removing the balance increase, etc.
Regarding damage: I will be adding the intensity ability (+ damage based on afflictions) this evening. I can look into scaling up damage some if needed after that. And, again, this is one of those things that will need a lot of tweaking to get right.
I was the one who tested the stuff with Daganev, and from my own comparison with current warrior mechanics, I agree that the damage seems on the low side. I think it's good to keep that in mind as we move forward - generally, we don't want to make any changes yet, but keeping an eye open for tweaking it upwards as Ieptix goes into coding the rest of the specs will be a good idea.
I can see where Shu is coming from with internal bleeding. Right now, it IS a very sweet affliction. It gives +100 bleeding every 5 seconds or so, and that can add up to be quite a lot... if combined with other bleed afflictions. Alone, however, that will not pressure mana at all (keeping up via regeneration alone is almost possible) and especially not with the minimal damage of BMs mentioned above. Of course, if it is intended just as a stacking affliction, it plays its role, taking up an ice cure. Old BMs used to have a more viable bleed strategy, which is where I got confused at the lack of such for the overhaul BMs.
If we're not going to go for bleed for BMs, that's fine as well, as long as they have their own viable kill scenarios. Shuyin's more experienced than me with warriors, and most of the new skillsets were proposed by him, so I'll defer to him on this point. It should be noted, though, it's definitely possible to tweak BM a bit to make bleed viable for them (a little more damage to pressure health, up the bleeding via another one or two bleeding aff to pressure mana, and tada, a bleed strategy becomes theoretically available).
I saw the "intensity" skill in the Google excel, but I didn't see it in the list posted by Ieptix here, so I guess it isn't coded in yet. If it is coming soon, then that would be great. With the high aff rate (with poisons) of BM, a scaling damage boost based on afflictions could be another good end-game scenario.
Just to add on to discussion about haymaker, right now it's not a very good ability at all. It's basically 4 lunges (with an extra cost and slower balance) but which is blockable by parry. You could, theoretically, spend 10p to get 4 wounds on your own arms when you hit coule using haymaker, and leave the opponent unharmed. Making it go through parry is the simplest fix, but if BMs are going to be aff-based, making it give low wounds but a burst of afflictions might be a good way to synergize with intensity (when it gets put in).
Oh, and one last thing I forgot to mention, stab needs to be changed to go through shrugging. Right now, it ensures 100% poison transfer, but doesn't affect shrugging, so I could shrug a stabbed poison, making it very unreliable and not really worth using.
Regarding bleeding: I can look into upping it a bit, but again blademasters aren't focused on bleeding and in general they shouldn't really be expecting to kill via bleeding, so they're not going to be giving particularly large amounts of bleeding regardless.
Regarding haymaker: I'll go ahead and make some of the adjustments I mentioned above, can take another look once that's done.
Regarding stab: I'll look into making it bypass shrugging.
Stab is definitely intended to be 100% poison transfer, so it should ignore shrugging.
Intensify and aggravate are meant to increase damage further too.
Regarding aggravate: Looking at it, this ability isn't going to work for a few reasons. One, poisons are applied after damage (which is necessary for morphite to function, well, at all). Two, there isn't currently a way to check if a poison is applying a duplicate affliction from outside the actual poison code, which is far removed from the weapon code with no good way to pass that information back. Three, because poisons aren't guaranteed to hit (and because of shrugging this is again handled outside of the knighthood code), there isn't a way to determine from the knighthood code whether or not a poison hit or not, so deciding to increase the damage based on that becomes tricky. Bearing these restrictions in mind (and knowing that at this time I am not planning on re-writing poisons), ideas for some ability that fills the same role as aggravate?
So of what I have seen the two problems I see so far:
- Rising damage based on affs, when warriors will 100% outpace all curing is a terrible idea. This is just asking for stupid versions of groups (right now there are some mechanics to help with wounds in groups and there is no rising damage).
- Mutilated leg should NOT come with a stun. 3s stun? 3s cure? One hit and I'm down for 8s when wounds are ALWAYS going to build? The stun alone all but guarantees I missed out on curing. This falls under slippery slope (the person losing will begin losing more quickly)*, and is bad design.
- In order to prevent some stacking, weakenedleg (if not already) should be ungivable and removed on a leg that becomes mutilated (how broken and mangle work now).
* Slippery Slope means the winner is going to get more potential to win. For instance in the pokemon card game, you get a card if you knock out an opponents, so the winning player now has more resources. An aff that stops you for 3s from attacking is bad enough, add in stun and there is 6s you cannot attack me, and I delayed the cure 3s as well.
- The opposite to slippery slope is called perpetual comeback, where the loser is given a better position to win from. Example of this is games like duelmasters where if I take a hit I get an extra card.
EDIT: Btw, stun is from coding the aff as amputate instead of a mangle. Stun is bad. When monks convert affs over, you will NOT want stuns as a natural part of it, PB might deserve a short stun to reflect their fewer hits, but definitely not BM.
Regarding mutilated limbs: these affs are intended to mirror amputate, not mangle. The stun on hit is two seconds (with some potential for slight variation due to how to time normalization occurs). If this is too much, we can throttle it back some, but right now I have no intention of removing it.
Regarding weakenedleg+mutilatedleg: While it is possible to stack the afflictions together, this isn't hugely relevant due to how curing works - mutliated will always be cured before weakened. Further, while amputated limbs in the current system do replace broken limbs, they also apply the broken and mangled limb affs when cured; mangled limbs however do NOT remove the broken limbs, and indeed being afflicted with a mangled limb also afflicts with the corresponding broken limb. On top of this, mutilated limb does not cure into weakened limb, so strictly speaking mutilated limbs on their own are (slightly) weaker than the pre-overhaul afflictions. Also, since the effects of mutilated limbs are a proper superset of the effects of weakened limbs, the only effect from having both weakened and mutilated limbs is with abilities that count afflictions, and unless it can be demonstrated that this is overly powerful, I am content with that being the case. So, with all that, mutilated limbs will not be removing/blocking the corresponding weakened limb affliction unless it can be demonstrated that this is needed.
Looking at Shuyin's description for aggravate, I'd guess that it is intended to reward a BM for being able to load their opponent with both high and low priority afflictions and also to avoid punishing a BM for being able to successfully load an opponent with poisons. Some suggestions to keep that same idea revolving around poisons:
- Make aggravate a modifier that will remove one poison from the weapon (as though it was successfully transferred to the opponent) and give a damage boost to that strike, without giving any poisons.
- Make aggravate a passive skill that increases the damage of all strikes as long as the target has at least 3 out of a list of 5 poison-afflictions (choose low priority affs like pox, sickening, healthleech etc). Because poisons are only given after damage, aggravate will only proc if the required number of afflictions are on the target before the strike hits, too.
(PS I might use some of these ideas for the Nekotai too. Hrmm..)
Perhaps it might make the most sense to reduce the cost of haymaker to 6 power.
For aggravate, would it make sense to calculate based on the amount of poison on the blade?
Perhaps it might make the most sense to reduce the cost of haymaker to 6 power.
For aggravate, would it make sense to calculate based on the amount of poison on the blade?
No, that wouldn't make sense. Why would it ever be anything but the maximum, then? You can apply and wipe without taking balance, after all.
Psh, @Ieptix, whichever it is that deals damage when we toss a poison out. Was one of creehai, nekcree or shocree, I can just never remember the names.
I know it's one of them. Not able to log in, and I usually use scorpion furry rather than putting them into forms explicitly.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited July 2015
I just want to mention that skills that bypass normal shrugging should still have a chance to be shrugged by those with enhanced shrugging capabilities (poisons, vendomdrops, etc). I'm okay with diminished effect of these skills in certain situations where stabbing is used, but nullifying their purpose entirely which would then require work on my part to rewrite them, is not a fair exchange.
So for example if Joe the average player has a 50% chance to shrug and Steve the Harbinger has a 75% chance to shrug, when attack with stabbing, joe shrugs 0% but Steve still shrugs 25%. Skills should influence one another but one shouldnt' flatly override the other.
I also disagree with giving warriors any alternative attack that is equivilent to caster damage. That provides warriors inherently flexibility greater than casters. They already have more health, they don't need everything and the kitchen sink.
I haven't really played with Stab yet, and I'm at work and unable to do so currently, but the initial AB states that it takes both arm balances
So, if they are using both arm balances to apply one poison (and one wound, if it still does wounds) then I don't really think it's a big deal for it to give the poison 100%, regardless of extra protection. Under these conditions, it's almost always better to risk the shrug and use two strikes for wounds + two poisons rather than one wound and one guaranteed poison. Stab would be a situational ability, sacrificing potential for givens.
If I'm misunderstanding how it's working, then ignore this.
Nekcree looks like it just does increased damage so long as there is a poison dart on the side being used, regardless of whether or not the poison actually procs. While that is something I could do here, I'd prefer some sort of strategic aspect to the ability, rather than what amounts to a permanent damage boost (especially since there's no cost here, whereas nekcree has a ka cost).
Actually, apparently it's handled differently for darted kicks and nekai; nekai check the chance for a poison proc and then scale based on that. This is a thing I could do, but as in my last paragraph I'd prefer something more that rewards the blademaster's skill rather than simply being an always-on buff, if possible. Something akin to Lerad's second idea doesn't feel too bad.
I haven't really played with Stab yet, and I'm at work and unable to do so currently, but the initial AB states that it takes both arm balances
So, if they are using both arm balances to apply one poison (and one wound, if it still does wounds) then I don't really think it's a big deal for it to give the poison 100%, regardless of extra protection. Under these conditions, it's almost always better to risk the shrug and use two strikes for wounds + two poisons rather than one wound and one guaranteed poison. Stab would be a situational ability, sacrificing potential for givens.
If I'm misunderstanding how it's working, then ignore this.
I'm not sure of the specifics either, but I maintain that these skills should remain relevant when it is most important that they are relevant. I.E. when a blademaster needs to ensure a poison hit. Like going for a lock.
Well, as far as locks, I don't think it's possible to hit a lock with stab as a modifier, mostly because you're replacing the aff hit with the poison application.
Can't slitthroat, give anorexia and stab at the same time.
Correct, stab prevents the use of an affliction, I specifically checked for that.
@Ieptix: My concern was being able to do weakenedlimb and mutilatedlimb in a single hit, you have a 2-3s stun, and both of those are 3s delayed cures. So long as I use calcise with 50% transfer, you will never be able to attack again since broken leg stops most attacks and the delayed curing at critical is 3s. I also can't cure both at once, so I have to sit and suffer it. Does this explain the reason I wanted calcise to not give break or change how the afflictions work? I can express it in math. As is, a mutilateleg with calcise is the 8s you won't be able to attack for. The warrior gets 2 more combos before you would be able to attack.
I am throwing together a light curing for this setup to handle restorative ice, though not sure when to prioritze what. All the leg effects stop attacking and inhibit moving, so you have to prioritize afflictions over wounding every time. It does not look like it would take long. If Calcise has been changed in overhaul arena, let us know and I imagine a few people can see it go crazy fast.
People have already said wounds stack quickly, and no one has had access to a potential 2 more cures each. Changing breaks to not stop most attacks would help, but the moment you get prone you still need to prioritize them. This also shows the issue with delayed curing for any attack, things like mutilated can be delayed, but the added stun makes it really strong.
Keep in mind all of these afflictions are what monks will need to use as well, if it sounds too scary to be done every 6s or so, it is too scary to be done with warriors. (Keep in mind, the monk thing we are working on will also use the new wounds and won't have every attack cause wounding, but there will be less wound requirements. Things like mutilate will have their own costs, with some requirements or splitting over forms, etc. Again, this discussion, when submitted on monkish, will be OPEN. If you want to be in Monkish ask someone listed as an Envoy of the Brotherhood).
I don't think broken legs stopped attacking, does it? One broken leg gives the hobble effect, prevents standing up, and prevents using monk kicks on that leg. Two prevents moving. But neither prevents attacks that aren't monk kicks, iirc.
If wounds can be cured while the affliction is being cured, it'll probably be fine. Repeated mutilates are basically just stuns, so while the mutilate affliction is actually being cured, if the target manages to cure down the wounds below critical, the mutilate, and therefore the stun, and therefore the affliction, will all be gone. The question is that of the detailed balance matching between cure and warrior attack speeds. At a purely theoretical look of the numbers, 3.5s warrior balance, with a 2s stun and a 1.5s ice balance, on paper, a warrior can mutilate+wounds on the leg repeatedly, and the target will only be able to cure off one wound-point that gets put back every round, keeping it at critical all the time.
While there are definitely other factors in combat, this could be a benchmark we keep in mind when balancing mutilate. It's possible we could do stuff like lengthen the stun immunity on mutilate only to prevent that 2s stun every single time, or increase the balance taken for a mutilate attack only, to open slightly longer windows of curing for the target. Alternatively, things like parrying when prone (if rebound and stancing are going away, that might not be a bad idea) could be used to put the onus of curing (and parrying) on the target, so that they can carve out longer windows of curing with smart use of parrying, stuff like that.
Comments
1. I think 500 damage every 3~3.5 seconds is too low.
2. I think any abilities that can turn 500 damage into a more reasonable number will be too high of a multiplier.
3. I really don't know if the base damage that all warriors do should be in the 1,000 range or the 1500 range at a max health of 12k Mainly because I don't know how much Health potion+scroll + sparkleberry heals.
Not every aff can be slithroat.
Anything less than a 4s cure (meaning you are guaranteed the next hit due to prone without passive hindering/movement), and the synergy and usefulness of the skill goes right out the window.
I don't see an issue with a 5s prone when it takes so many levels to build up to critical. For example, you can burn 10 power into legs in a row, WITHOUT CURING, and you still need 50% more (5 more levels) to hit critical. At least when the aff happens, it should bloody be meaningful.
For aggravate, would it make sense to calculate based on the amount of poison on the blade?