Warrior Overhaul Testing

Ieptix

The warrior/physical affliction overhaul has entered its first stage of testing! The new base warrior combat system is in, along with the (mostly-complete) Blademaster specialization. All players will be able to use the new skills in overhaul arena challenges (CHALLENGE <opponent> OVERHAUL), even if they are not warriors by default, though they will need to provide their own weapons; AB files are not available for the testing versions of the skills, but details for the abilities can be found below.

Players are encouraged to play with and test the new mechanics to their hearts' content, particularly insofar as attempting to break things and with an eye for balance. Specifically, due to the difficulty of working with the old weapon system, figuring good numbers for speed and damage is more than a bit of a pain, so at launch the base speed and damage numbers are not necessarily meant to reflect final numbers at all. Note that because the current mechanics must remain in place until we are ready to bring all of the new overhaul mechanics out of testing, any skills or abilities not using these new mechanics will still function off the old wounds and afflictions, so it is possible that some interesting interactions may arise.

This thread is here to serve as a discussion of the new mechanics: (non-exploitable/non-game-breaking) bugs (that are related to the new mechanics), balance concerns, suggestions, questions, etc. There's very likely some incredibly important something-or-another I'm forgetting to mention, so this post will be updated if anything comes to mind/any questions of particular import come up, etc.

Note: At the time of this posting, Lunge currently can be blocked by parry; this is on my to-do list of things to fix.

The rest of this post is an explanation of the new mechanics and the new Blademaster abilities available. This will be moved into some in-game help files when I am not nodding off on top of my computer.

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Warrior combat is based around the STRIKE command, which at its most basic is simply STRIKE <target>, to attack an opponent and do damage. While this isn't very spectacular on its own, it is also possible to target body parts on an opponent, causing wounds. Wounds are important because they form the major prerequisites for strike modifiers, which apply new effects to strikes, including afflictions, instakills, and various other unique effects. Together, wounds and modifiers form the backbone of a warrior's offense. 

The full syntax for the strike command is STRIKE* <target> [LEFT|RIGHT] [<bodypart>] [<modifier> [<modifier arguments>]]. For users of one-handed weapons, you can optionally choose which hand you wish to attack with; if this is omitted, the weapon will be auto-selected based on what hand is wielding a weapon, on balance, not blocked by afflictions, etc. The bodypart may be optionally included; some modifiers require targeting a specific body part, and some require you not target a specific body part at all. Valid bodypart names are head, chest, gut, rleg, lleg, rarm, and larm, with the latter four also able to be expanded into e.g. rightleg. The modifier is also optional; if omitted, a basic strike is performed, which will cause wounding if targeted at a body part. Some modifiers may also take additional information, which will follow the modifier name in the command.

Examples:

STRIKE DARVELLAN

STRIKE ZVOLTZ HEAD

STRIKE MAYLEA STAB

STRIKE MANTEEKAN LLEG LEGTENDON

STRIKE MYSRAI REMISS PARALYSIS

* During the testing period in the arena, the actual command is OHSTRIKE, to prevent it from clashing with non-overhaul mechanics. Similarly, OHWOUNDS and OHASSESS can be used in place of their non-overhauled counterparts.

A body part can have a wound value ranging from 0-20, with 0 being completely unwounded. A wound value of 6 or fewer is considered light; 14 or fewer is heavy, and any higher is critical. These values are important because modifier wound requirements are based on these thresholds.

In addition to the new wounding system, a new set of overhaul afflictions, the physical afflictions, has also been completed. Unlike the other overhaul affliction sets, each physical affliction is tied to a specific limb, which is of relevance when curing. Note that the new physical afflictions are only available inside the arenas at presen. A listing of the physical afflictions can be found in game via AFFS LIST, and detailed info on each is available via AFFS INFO <affliction>.

Both wounds and physical afflictions are cured with the restorative ice salve, using the command APPLY RESTORATIVEICE TO <bodypart> [WOUNDS]. By default, an application of ice will attempt to first cure any afflictions on that limb before curing wounds; however, appending WOUNDS to the command will attempt to heal any wounds first. Healing wounds will always happen instantly, but curing afflictions will occur on a delay from the time of application, based on the wound state of the body part. Note that it may be possible at high wounds to apply a second dose of ice before the first one has healed an affliction. When this happens, it is important that you not apply to the same limb a second time, as this will override the first cure attempt and restart the delay.

At present, the Blademaster specialization is available for testing. This specialization is based around one-handed swords, and its combat style is designed around using poisons and modifiers to build up large numbers of afflictions. The skill is currently made up of the following abilities, with a handful of non-modifier abilities that have not been implemented yet:

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BLADEMASTERY

Increased effectiveness when using one-handed swords via quicker balance than non-Blademasters.

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PIERCEARM

Modifier

Allowed bodypart targets: rarm, larm

Prereq: Light wounds on targeted bodypart

Effect: Afflict with clumsiness

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PIERCELEG

Modifier

Allowed bodypart targets: rleg, lleg

Prereq: Light wounds on targeted bodypart

Effect: Afflict with weakenedleg on targeted bodypart

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PUNCTURECHEST

Modifier

Allowed bodypart targets: chest

Prereq: Light wounds on targeted bodypart

Effect: Afflict with sensitivity

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DISEMBOWEL

Modifier

Allowed bodypart targets: gut

Prereq: Light wounds on targeted bodypart

Effect: Afflict with internalbleeding

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LUNGE

Modifier

Power: 2 (any)

Allowed bodypart targets: any, but must target a body part

Prereq: Light wounds on targeted bodypart

Effect: Applies two wounds on targeted bodypart

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SLICEEAR

Modifier

Allowed bodypart targets: head

Prereq: Light wounds on targeted bodypart

Effect: Afflict with disloyalty

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WARCRY

Syntax: WARCRY

Your warcry is now so powerful and intimidating that many creatures

attacking your allies will be forced to consider you their primary

target. You will not be able to produce a proper warcry while

off-balance or on the floor, and most loyal creatures are simply so

devoted to their cause that your warcry will have no effect.

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COLLAPSENERVE

Modifier

Allowed bodypart targets: rarm, larm

Prereq: Heavy wounds on targeted bodypart

Effect: Afflict with pacifism

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COULE

Upon a successful parry, you have a chance to perform an unmodified strike at your opponent's arm. NOTE: this currently only works when blocking an overhaul strike.

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SLITTHROAT

Modifier

Allowed bodypart targets: head

Prereq: Heavy wounds on targeted bodypart

Effect: Afflict with damagedthroat

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STAB

Modifier

Allowed bodypart targets: any

Prereq: None

Effect: If the strike lands, this modifier will guarantee the next poison on the weapon is delivered. Requires and uses balance from both arms.

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GASHCHEST

Modifier

Allowed bodypart targets: chest

Prereq: Heavy wounds on targeted bodypart

Effect: Afflict with paralysis

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SEPTICWOUND

Modifier

Allowed bodypart targets: gut

Prereq: Heavy wounds on targeted bodypart

Effect: Afflict with anorexia

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REMISS

Modifier

Power: 2 (any)

Allowed bodypart targets: any

Prereq: None

Modifier arguments: one of paralysis, haemophilia, weakenedleftleg, weakenedrightleg, weakenedleftarm, weakenedrightarm, sickening

Effect: Make a normal non-wounding strike against your opponent. A few seconds later, your target will be afflicted with the affliction of your choice. Requires and uses balance from both arms.

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LEGTENDON

Modifier

Allowed bodypart targets: lleg, rleg

Prereq: Critical wounds on targeted body part

Effect: Afflicts with mutilatedleg on targeted limb

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EVISCERATE

Modifier

Power: 3 (any)

Allowed bodypart targets: chest

Prereq: Critical wounds on chest, two physical afflictions, two internal afflictions

Effect: Death

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HAYMAKER

Modifier

Power: 10 (any)

Allowed bodypart targets: any, but must target a bodypart

Prereq: None

Effect: Attempt four unmodified strikes to targeted limb, dealing two wounds for each successful hit. Requires dual-wielded blades with both arms on-balance and usable. Uses balance on both arms.

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Daganev

Very exciting. However you left out how weapons are supposed to work. Should we notice different wounding or damage based on weapon stats?

Also, is rebounding still intended to exist?

Daganev

Also, out of curiosity since I can't test for a while, how long is the cure delay at each level?

Lerad

I think (I can't remember and I haven't gotten home to test) 0 wounds is no delay, light is 1s, heavy 2s, critical 3s.

Daganev

Lerad said:

I think (I can't remember and I haven't gotten home to test) 0 wounds is no delay, light is 1s, heavy 2s, critical 3s.

And apply balance is 2 seconds?

Just trying to figure out how complicated the curing coding needs to be.

Daganev

I understand that Blademasters are intended to use poisons and afflictions, but is a 1v1 Damage kill intended to be a strategy as well?

I notice there are afflictions for sensitivity and sickness, which would seem to help with a damage kill, but I'm wondering if those are actually there for that purpose, or more for group combat?

Granted I have not been logged in when others were so I couldn't test it, but I want to make sure that if somebody only sets their parry and stance to chest, that the blademaster isn't stuck with a near never-ending attrition combat.

Also, is haymaker intended to be used as an opening rather than finishing move now? Or can it be used with an affliction like  STRIKE IEPTIX CHEST HAYMAKER  GASHCHEST.  Or is it a means to apply 4 poisons if lucky?  If I'm understanding it correctly, I'm not sure a 10 power opener makes sense.

Lerad

I'm not too sure about the strategical applications, it's possible haymaker will still be unviable now as it was before, but I think Shuyin intended for it to be more useful, at least.

All the specs were definitely made with at least one 1v1 end-scenario in mind.

Synkarin

Here are my first thoughts from testing with Shuyin (very basic)

Speed times seem about right, it's going to be a situation where you're applying every ice balance. Luckily Warriors have ways of avoiding parry (stance is slated to be removed unless it turns out it's needed) so you can get around people planting parry on one body part rather easily.

Haymaker only does wounds and applies poisons I believe, so no afflictions on it. That can be changed later if needed.

The big thing is that it's a completely different system, so it's going to take time to play with, and perfect offensive and curing strategies (plus parry). One good thing may be that when all the specs are converted, each spec may require a different parry and curing strategy, which would make things more interesting.

Daganev

It's a math question really. If someone just focuses on keeping chest wounds healed and parry, can they avoid death, or are the other attacks doing enough damage that if they only focus on preventing eviscerate, they will end up dying to damage or bleeding?

When you say stances are being removrd, does that mean that every strike hits? Haymaker makes it sound like it's possible to miss.

Synkarin

No, it's not really a math question.

If someone is just focusing on curing chest and parrying chest, they are opening themselves up on every other limb.

It means you can do things like strike head to get slitthroat, strike gut to get anoreixa and use chansu/senso poisons for asthma/slickness for a lock. You can beat on the legs to prone them and stop parry. There are a lot of avenues to take to get to the eviscerate, even if they decide to only cure chest/parry chest. 

It's your job as a warrior to get around it.

No, not every strike hits, because it can be parried still. Stance and natural miss are slated to be removed, that doesn't mean every strike will hit, it means there are two less obstacles in your way.

Ieptix

On phone in bed, short answer to recent topic: there is no natural miss, stancing has no effect because it only affected wounds and parrying that I could see, wounds are now fixed and extra parrying mods unnecessary. More answers/discussion when awake.

Turnus

Not sure if this was addressed before in another thread, but what is slated to happen with rebounding?

Daganev

Each attack takes X seconds. Each cure, Y or Z seconds. Except for slitthroat and knocking prone (Which themselves will take many hits to make stick/take longer to cure) the other afflictions don't use the ice cure. (Does that mean the design is relying on the RNG of poison application while doing other attacks? ) Each attack does Z damage, and health sips heals Y damage. These are math questions. It kinda scares me to think that the defensiveness of the response might be an indication that the math was not even looked at to model a theoretical perfect fight. I ask these questions because it has affected warrior combat in the past. See the rise and fall of bonecrushers. The large variety of variables made it very difficult to predict, but I thought the purpose here was to remove those factors and so it could be designed better, and each specialization could be viable.

Synkarin

You are veering dramatically away from the question I was addressing. Why? I don't know, you tell me. I'm guessing it's because you don't like being wrong and so you are changing your argument.

You said you were worried that if an opponent only focused on keeping chest wounds down and chest parried, could Warriors still kill? You specifically asked about a damage kill via bleeding, sensitivity etc. I pointed out how warriors could get around an opponent that only focused on keeping chest cured and parried, which is most certainly -not- a math question, it's a strategy question. 

The 'math' of the situation is mostly in regards to the speed of attacking and speed of curing, which in my very first post, said felt pretty good. Attacks are at 3.5s and ice is a 2s balance. I didn't notice any significant damage, but we didn't play around with that really(ie, see what damage could be built up), we played with general usage, eviscerate and other effects like remiss. Hence, I didn't comment on damage, at all, I commented that the worry you were presenting wasn't something to be worried about because you have options to get around it, which again, doesn't deal with math, but strategy.

Daganev

Ieptix said:

On phone in bed, short answer to recent topic: there is no natural miss, stancing has no effect because it only affected wounds and parrying that I could see, wounds are now fixed and extra parrying mods unnecessary. More answers/discussion when awake.

Great to hear.  Wasn't there also a dodge chance, outside of the natural miss? Or did the doge just modify the natural miss?

Synkarin

Dodge is a skill, and is still in the picture.

Ieptix

Blademasters in particular also have a couple abilities that allow for a combined damage/affliction kill that I haven't added yet, both because the most of the exact mechanics from the proposal need to be adjusted to work with existing systems and because at the moment, I am mostly concerned in making sure the basic mechanics (striking, wounding, curing, etc.) are all working at a reasonable level. Other specs have different focuses, Axelord for example is very much a hindering+damage spec, pureblade is bleed-heavy, etc.

Rebounding is currently not enabled. If it's determined that it'd be a good mechanic to have in place, I can add it back in, but personally I am not a fan.

All weapons for a given spec have the same base damage and speed, though it can vary between weapon classes (e.g. axes will do a bit more damage than 2-handed swords).

Ice is on a two-second balance. Cure delays from wounds are light:1s::heavy:2s::critical:3s. Except for mutilated limbs, they are always at the max cure delay since they essentially take the place of amputated limbs, which themselves are a delayed cure.

Haymaker is meant to be a quick burst of wounds/damage, with the potential for poisons on top. Specifically, with the effects I mentioned in the first paragraph, a haymaker on an afflicted opponent will have a good chance of doing a large chunk of damage.

Regarding damage specifically, this is very likely to be one of the things that'll need the most fine-tuning to get to a good spot, so I'm very much interested in feedback regarding where damage levels sit.

Ieptix

Another thing of import that will come up later (though isn't of any immediacy right now) is that there are numerous abilities in the game that affect wounding which simply do not translate to the new system; increasing wounds by 10% or cutting them in half or whatever doesn't work well here, because it's very much balanced around the two-wounds-per-round (2 1-wound hits from 1-handers, 1 2-wound hit from 2-handers). Ideas for what to do with these sorts of abilities are welcome, and I'll also be discussing this stuff with the envoys when we're getting a bit closer to release.

Daganev

 I was attempted to clarify for you that I was asking a math question. (For future reference, all my questions about theoretical combat are based on the math behind a "perfect fight".)  Yes there are strategies to remove parry, but that isn't what I was asking.

Any strategy available takes time away from building critical wounds upon the chest.  Certainly, if a lock can be kept for an infinite amount of time, then eventually you can kill them with damage.  So I thought you were trying to say that the mere existence of a lock possibility means that killing them with damage is possible, so in return I was questioning the ability to actually maintain that lock mathematically.   
If a cure is 2 seconds, and a swing is 3.5 seconds, then that means in order to get ahead and guarantee a kill, the blade-master will need to do one of the following:
1. Get two afflictions on the same cure in one hit often enough to eventually outpace the healing. (Can this be done with stab? i.e. Does stab also cause wounding?  Or only RNG poison application? Or is this intended to be done with Remiss?)
2. Be able to build up enough wounds such that multiple cures are taking 3 seconds to cure ontop of the 2 second balance. (This sounds fine as is, BUT if most afflictions can be ignored to the point where you can just protect the kill condition, it can potentially cause a problem)

3. Slow down curing below 3.5 seconds to eventually get ahead.

4. Build up enough damage over time that sipping health/tome/sparkle doesn't outpace the damage. (A lock is one way to do that, overwhelming bleeding another)  (Is that the intention of senstivity and sickness?  If they aren't able to do that, should it be bugged?)

Feel free to ignore this post.  Ninja'd by Ieptix.

Daganev

So for testing we can use any blade-master weapon, we don't need to get a Masterweapon, or worry about its stats? 

Ieptix

Daganev said:

So for testing we can use any blade-master weapon, we don't need to get a Masterweapon, or worry about its stats? 

Correct. Masterweapon should probably come with a bit of a bonus, I forgot about them, but I'll worry about that when I'm getting ready to release.

Daganev

Also, I'm a bit concerned about the 3.5 second balance time for bashing. Is that the new standard?

Synkarin

The 'perfect fight' in a balanced world should always end in a draw, with neither person killing each other. Killing should come from taking advantages with your opponents faulty curing etc. If things are balanced correctly, there should never be a situation where I would die IF I handled things perfectly. (100% balance is pretty impossible, but we're talking theoretical)

At this point, everyone is pretty close to on the same page with these new mechanics, it's going to require testing and implementing offense and curing systems to really get a feel for how things are going and how it balances it. It looks good in theory, but people are going to need to get in the arena and test things out. 

Daganev

Ieptix said:

Daganev said:

So for testing we can use any blade-master weapon, we don't need to get a Masterweapon, or worry about its stats? 

Correct. Masterweapon should probably come with a bit of a bonus, I forgot about them, but I'll worry about that when I'm getting ready to release.

I understand that longsword, rapier, and scimitar will currently all have the same stats, but will that be true in the final release as well?

Ieptix

Regarding bashing speed: concerned why?

Regarding weapons: yes, that will be the same at release.

Daganev

Regarding bashing speed: concerned why?

Regarding weapons: yes, that will be the same at release.

I'm concerned that 3.5 seconds is too slow. That's the speed I used to bash as a tad'dae and currently I'm bashing at 2.3 seconds. But if every class is now intended to bash at 3.5 seconds that's a different story. While others play around with testing the feel and how balanced it is, I would like to also test that the skills are doing what they were intended to do. That's why I'm asking these questions.

Synkarin

...

Daganev said:

Regarding bashing speed: concerned why?

Regarding weapons: yes, that will be the same at release.

I'm concerned that 3.5 seconds is too slow. That's the speed I used to bash as a tad'dae and currently I'm bashing at 2.8 seconds. While others play around with testing the feel and how balanced it is, I would like to also test that the skills are doing what they were intended to do. That's why I'm asking these questions.

...That's the point of it being available in the overhaul arena, there's already been a few things caught and changed. It ensures things are working correctly, and allows the testing of balance etc.

Ieptix

3.5s is already faster than any of the caster bashing attacks, so I'm not really convinced it's an issue. You also have forging runes and lightning stance to attack quicker, as well as the possibility of racial specs and a few effects from secondary skills.

Ssaliss

Will there be aff-messages for limb damage with this overhaul? If not "You sustain two wounds and now have 15", then at least "You're hit in the right arm."?

Daganev

As long as people don't become surprised by the fact that they can no longer hit and run before the mob attacks back, it should be fine. I would ask around to see how many midbies still rely on that method with the new health values.

Ssaliss

Really now, if casters can do it without any health buffs, then why wouldn't warriors be able to with a 5/10 native health buff? Warriors will already be tankier and better bashers than casters due to that; let's not widen the gap even further.