Draylor, Veyrzhul, and others did that same thing to Mag. Alacardael/Urazial did it to Serenwilde. There's no shortage of people who have ganked lowbie's/midbies (I've certainly done it in my day) I remember when a certain Princess led a whole bunch of illithoid inner worms to kill some Glom newbie/midbie because they were tired of Morkarion ganking them.
Every side does it, and it always falls back to a circular argument.
Wow, that's slander. She literally walked into it, and she was on a different level of the Prison when I started going after Morkarion. So, yeah, please don't make me out to be some griefer. I was really the one being griefed.
Also Morkarion was *trying* to gank me. He couldn't kill me, even as I totally ignored him. I was just annoyed that he was making my bashing inefficient!
My comment still holds - if it's a pretty strict non-com person, then whatever, but if it's someone who is willing to fight when it's easy, but just mutes everything when it's hard, then that's pretty silly and poor.
Don't get me wrong, I've definitely camped the nexus during long raids before, knowing that if I stepped out, I'd die. But that's a far cry from just turning everything off and pretending nothing's going on.
I don't think it's that unreasonable to config loyalsays off if you're facing a raid of 6 people versus 1 just to reduce the spam/guilt/angst of not being able to do anything about it. For noncoms, I would recommend it. For combatants that are middle class, say like Lavinya, I'd recommend it to her. It all depends on how much you want to feel suffering in the game or if you'd feel guilty not hearing the cries of literal text constructs as they die.
I don't expect anyone who is fully invested and patriotic to do this.
Fairweather fighters will be fairweather fighters regardless of if they have loyalsays on or not.
I think that is what people are trying to point out in response to @Silvanus. That (as he invited us to call him) he is a hypocrite, because it wasn't long ago that he was downplaying the exact same behavior, with the roles reversed.
I remember when a certain Princess led a whole bunch of illithoid inner worms to kill some Glom newbie/midbie because they were tired of Morkarion ganking them.
Every side does it, and it always falls back to a circular argument.
I remember that one time I 'griefed' a Glom midbie who kept basically yelling 'come at me bro' to Serenwilde. I killed him in dreambody a few times, then took pity at his flailing and told him exactly how to avoid getting killed by dreamweavers - about how to break a link, how to call for help in a useful way, to upkeep kafe and insomnia. He told me to screw off, so I came back and killed him while he sat in his nest, in dreambody.
I'm not going to jump into a debate about whether Kelly griefed a Glom newbie or not, I read the letter she wrote to said newbie pretty much saying that she did it, so I'm not sure what facts I got wrong. Feel free to disagree, but there were some pretty blatant admissions in that letter.
Not that I blame Kelly, I've definitely killed people in simliar situations before, and Mork was totally a dick about it all. It's really ok, Equinox breaking up worked out super well for me, so no hard feelings.
My main point is people grief, and calling out griefers is like telling me I have 10 fingers and 10 toes, it's just silly observation to try and make.
People have complained about raids far less griefy than 4 hour no responses, we got tons of complaints for raiding Serenwilde quite often, and quite a few of those started because someone like Caerlyr griefed someone, but quite a few others started because Alacardael griefed someone, then got ganked and called for help. No one's really innocent in these situations.
I think that is what people are trying to point out in response to @Silvanus. That (as he invited us to call him) he is a hypocrite, because it wasn't long ago that he was downplaying the exact same behavior, with the roles reversed.
Here's what I said:
"This is supposed to be a friendly community. Magnagora has had a lot of unsavory people that took things too far in the past. I do not use the past to justify my actions in the future. You can laugh at my posts, you can laugh at what I have to say, but, it does not deny the fact that there are multiple Magnagorans that feel this way, and to laugh at it or justify it with actions in the past continues to come off as petty and unfriendly.
This community is dying. This game is dying. If you can't accept what I have to say and only consider it a laughing matter, then the community is probably even further dead then I think.
This is how -I- feel. This is how multiple Magnagorans feel. You can take that how you wish, if one of you came to me with this, I would gladly work out the problem with you."
I want this game to succeed. I feel like we as a community are not doing it justice by this pettiness. If you don't want to take blame, can you at least accept that there is something wrong and work on fixing it. I will gladly take the blame for starting this whole process 13 years ago with my over-griefing of Celestia(spooking off the pool). I admit that, that was 13 years ago, I've grown up, I've tried to make amends, I help people out. I'm asking if the rest of the community is capable of evolving past justifying your actions because a 16 year old drunk kid liked to stroke his e-peen.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
Griefer stories, go! Here's the letter... Raves for memories!
Greetings, Morticia.
You have likely come to paint me in an ill light, having suffered an unfortunate end, in part at my hands, and having been fed the bias of a bitter man, Morkarion. Despite this, I hope that you find truth in my words. I am sincere when I say that it was not my intent to cause harm unto you in the illithoid prison; I will offer explanation, of which I have recounted to many. This particular excerpt is what I have sent directly to the Dark Seneschal, who seeks recompense for a perceived transgression of the treaty between our nations.
---
Morkarion had been antagonising me as I hunted in the illithoid prison on a few occasions. I recognise that this is regarded as a defensible territory to some of Glomdoring; to Morkarion, I even expressed my admiration for his tenacity, as ill-placed as I conceived it to be. The first time that Morkarion struck against me, I slew him, and as such, he earned the protection of the Avenger. For times after, I began to ignore Morkarion's attacks, unable to defend myself without incurring the Avenger's wrath, and I merely continued to hunt despite his nuisance. However, after continued aggression, I grew tired of his assault, and instead drew upon the resources about me in an act of self-defense. I selectively killed the illithoid, leaving the inner worms to attack without discrimination. That is, I imposed the same risk unto myself, to suffer the wrath of the worms, in order to strike against Morkarion. For a time, this tactic proved to ward him away; I slew the worms and completed my hunting.
During the incident where Morticia perished, Morkarion gave his warning and proceeded to attack me. I again began to leave the worms, but he would not be deterred. At the time, I was aware of Morticia's presence in the prison, but she was a long distance from our skirmish. I had assumed Morkarion had notified his comrade of his declared assault or, in the very least, the danger she was in, as he was surely aware of what I was doing. In a previous instance, he had even expressed concern that Morticia, who was also in the area at an earlier time, was in danger, though I knew she had left when I began to leave the worms. However, in this instance, I had every reason to believe that she was aware.
Yet Morkarion would not cease, and I purposefully amassed many worms - more than I could keep track of. I drew them towards him, as he would not leave me be, and he began to run about the prison, in hopes that the worms would catch me before they did he. As time passed, unknownst to me, Morticia drew closer to us, and it was not until I had passed her on my way to Morkarion (note, he likely passed her first) that I had realised she was in danger. It was at that time that I had alerted Morkarion that she may befall an unfortunate accident, though there was not enough time. She soon after crossed the path of the worms, and in their voracious nature, they twice slaughtered her.
I went back for her at my own risk. It was I, not Morkarion, who passed through the army of worms to retrieve her fallen corpse. I then tracked Morkarion down so he might take her to safety to be revived. I do not know whether he did, and only seem to recall him continuing to attack me.
Simply, the accusation that I led the worms to Morticia is entirely inaccurate. I did not seek to cause her harm; if I did, I certainly had more direct means. As such, it would be wildly inappropriate for me to give her a "one minute warning" when I was in fact not attacking her. It was by circumstance of being in a hostile environment that she was slain. If anyone is to blame, it is Morkarion, for initiating such hostilities and not warning his comrade of the danger she was in, despite ample opportunity and foresight. One could even suppose that he led them to her himself, as I was following in his footsteps.
---
To you, Morticia, I will not apologise for what happened, as I do not perceive myself at fault. I certainly regret that you were harmed due to the recklessness of Morkarion and the volatile nature of the inner worms. I regret that I had thought Morkarion to be an honourable man. I did not believe that he would put you in harm's way, nor did I think he would be such a coward as to twist the events to absolve his own blame. That said, I do apologise for not contacting you sooner, as you do deserve the truth.
In hindsight, I should have offered you warning, but I was merely acting out of my own self-preservation. I wished to inflict harm unto Morkarion, justice for his attack against myself, and as such, I did not wish you to alert others to our skirmish, nor join him in defense. I was too focused upon avoiding the inner worms and tracking Morkarion that I did not mind your own movement within the area.
As you may have noticed, you have been granted Avenger's protection against myself, as the Oneiroi believed your death to require some compensation. I will not be using the worms to my advantage in the future, and so you need not be wary of me. Whether you wish to believe my story or otherwise is entirely up to you, but I have said my peace, and I will not attempt to contact you further. If you have further questions, I invite you to inquire to me directly.
Don't you feel like the game has already shifted away from the griefers? We've already expunged Caerlyr and Daebach, the relics from the lost age. Nobody ganks anybody anymore unless the gaudy squad feels like disrupting an astral hunt of all things.
Pointing out griefers may be an irrelevant point to make, but if Silvanus is trying to make an appeal to us being generally nicer to each other, well...we are. We're kind of forced to by the egregious xp loss from dying in enemy territory, and people don't feel the same zeal against other orgs than previous years.
Intriguingly, that also correlates with the game's depression so far. Less conflict means less interested players. I'd say we all should be working to be more passionate and zealous in our dealings with others. More Taevyns and Baelfyres and people rallying behind them.
Don't you feel like the game has already shifted away from the griefers? We've already expunged Caerlyr and Daebach, the relics from the lost age. Nobody ganks anybody anymore unless the gaudy squad feels like disrupting an astral hunt of all things.
The Gaudi squad ganks astral bashes to kill those that are raiding at the early hours when no one is around. See, it's all circular!
-re:kelly-griefer
This line It was at that time that I had alerted Morkarion that she may befall an unfortunate accident, though there was not enough time. She soon after crossed the path of the worms, and in their voracious nature, they twice slaughtered her.
Why inform Morkarion and not Morticia? Seems pretty obvious you were letting Morkarion know that Morticia was about to die because of his actions, rather than alert her and save her.
No, I'm all for conflict. Everybody knows I'm constantly surrounded in conflict.
I just want people to be smarter about it. Raiding Nil for 4 hours every day from 8am to 12pm with groups of 3-5 accomplishes nothing but makes people miserable and not want to log in to see another raid again.
Its attitudes like this that I am calling out: "Magnagora isn't some innocent little flower. There are clear-cut reasons why people feel it's okay to grief you."
There. Is. Never. A. Reason. To. Grief. Anyone.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
Leolamins made it his mission to learn to fight because Draylor, veyrzhul and Ethelon would do the same thing every night (off-peak for everyone else, evening for us). And then, he decided to go take some of it back looking for a fight, any fight. He sure didn't just raid Celest. He went everywhere and anywhere in the hopes of spurring someone to fight him. Perspective, she be awful different from different positions. (And there was never any waiting until no one was around. That was literally the only time he could play.) I don't think that's the same as some of the other perpetrators I see raiding at those hours. I would think two people being almost ready to quit the game over the irritating antics, raiding and ganking over the same person would be more a concern than dying that one time when you were deliberately trying to be a pest.
There's a big difference in poking around looking for a fight (I get that, it's cool), and clearing the loyal plane AND going to godrealms, knowing already that no one is coming to defend.
Leolamins made it his mission to learn to fight because Draylor, veyrzhul and Ethelon would do the same thing every night (off-peak for everyone else, evening for us). And then, he decided to go take some of it back looking for a fight, any fight. He sure didn't just raid Celest. He went everywhere and anywhere in the hopes of spurring someone to fight him. Perspective, she be awful different from different positions. (And there was never any waiting until no one was around. That was literally the only time he could play.) I don't think that's the same as some of the other perpetrators I see raiding at those hours.
You want to know why, when we finally did have some people around,we took the opportunity to destroy some Celest statues and taint the area? To kill guards? Because of how much we had been going through it. It was a nice taste of their own medicine.
Also - Baelfyre looks for a fight. He's not even a demi. He'll happily wade into a group of half a dozen and hope for the best. How is that the same as a group of anywhere from 1-6 clearing Nil, Morg, Raez, Fain, Earthlords looking for a 'fight' on a practically every night basis??
I don't even leave my manse during my evenings anymore because I'm not interested in feeding the e-peen of those who do it. My death isn't worth it. It's not fun. You don't want a real fight, you just want to pwn some noobs and feel awesome.
EDIT: That's low about the afk Arien thing - he apologised and gave back the body since it was never intention to strip her of demi. Talk about hyperbole.
Interesting...I remember a certain friend quitting the game because Leolamins wouldn't stop scrying her and killing her everytime she went out of the city to influence in Valtreth's realm or to gather squid in the Inner Sea. (Meliana)
And I also remember him hunting down newbies and how the newbies would complain on CGT and I would scry him and see him stalking them and he would issue me for scrying constantly because he couldn't kill them with me watching his every move.
I'm not saying the guy was an angel. He did kill people I would prefer see left alone.
This is the first I have heard of Meliana quitting over Leolamins. As far as I knew, he didn't single anyone out - he just looked at affiliation and went looking for fun.
As to that scrying issue...I remember it well. You had it on him over and over for about a RL hour. That spam is annoying as hell. And well all know what the admin think of issuing over scrying spam, don't we? But we all agree it's obnoxious.
All I'm getting out of this is the feeling that people are using "griefing" differently in how they define their arguments and approaches and ya'll need to get on the same page there first. Which isn't surprising, it's a pretty nebulous word that is elastic.
Also I don't turn off loyal says now, I just don't play. The first few times I was willing to give it a try, but some days there was up to seven or eight people raiding Morg's realm vs me and maybe Leolamins (before he quit playing) or if he was up real late Silvanus. Now I go do something else with my evening once the cries start.
I think the word slightly says I can slightly understand it, that means, less than 50% understanding. Which is not a majority understanding, which means, most of it, I can't understand.
So, let me rephrase that.
I mostly didn't understand bashing large Godrealms when they dropped gold.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
Finally got my grubby hands on a cosmic enchanter. Now that all my cosmic enchants are on my runed jewelry, I never have to wait a week to find one again.
Rather than risk getting Raves and people in trouble, let's take the banter elsewhere. Yes, people have been griefed in the past. Yes, people now feel the other side is eating its just desserts. No, this isn't enough of a reason to justify 4 hour raids against non-opposition.
Even at the height of my griefing (and this was when I raised War shrines in Etherwilde and killed anyone who tried defiling it with Invasion mobs), there's a point reached when it's crossed 'winning' and ventured into 'griefing'. It doesn't take more than half an hour to realize people have stopped trying, and even less time than that to realize the need to move on.
Raiding should be looked at, plain and simple, to clearly mark out winning conditions and moving past that. Any further and it really can be detrimental to the game. But, I digress - go start a new thread, people.
---
Behold, fabulous incarnate:
Holding the Amazing Wand of Wishes aloft, you wave it vigorously back and forth until it glows with
an incandescent light before transforming into the Marvelous Wand of Sparkles.
@Daunte's being favoured to GR 19 and will be the third Celestine to have reached that rank without being elected into a guild leader position. (The first being @Sidonie and the second - @Faragan!) Yay!
I can remember being ganked repeatedly by Talkan, and then him taunting me irl years later on LoL and asking me to log in as Shaddus so he could kill me again.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I have played on different characters in pretty much all cities/communes and for a very long time before the creation of Alaksanteri.
I have witnessed horrible things happen to all orgs, perpetrated by various individuals from everywhere, and it happens. Time passes and life goes on. If it all becomes so serious for you, maybe it is time to step back from the game a bit. Every org I have seen rise with some power did not spare their enemies from a bloodshed. While I don't find creeping on a character endlessly to do bad things to them acceptable, raids from both sides no matter how intense are aspects which fall in the rp category of the universe. They should be expected by any org, if they have enemies.
My open suggestion to any org which wants to stop all raids is to be friends or neutral with everyone.
Man, I wish Magnagora had some friends like that when we were completely abandoned by Hallifax and Serenwilde for not pulling our weight (aka we were all but empty), and Celest, Gaudi and Glom all hated us still. I bet it must feel real nice, Glomdoring! Wouldn't know myself. That was the time of the several times a day raids with no support or muscle to stop it. Did Glom even have to endure any of that? I'm sure I sound bitter because I kinda am.
I'm still reading the posts after this, but all I have to say: Narsrim. Munsia. Glomdoring had just opened. Viravain said "bleep off" to Magnagora, after the Fain debacle. The only other orgs were Celest and Serenwilde, who were like "eww, taint, get it off!"
I loved those days, that's what got me into Lusternia!
My very first raid defense went something like this
Newbie monk Sidd with some other midbies (I want to say Urazial and Exeryte) went into the nexus world because Celest was camping there. At this point I didn't have a good grasp on scent, good map, anything so I had no idea where anyone was. I imagine it was really foggy and all the sudden Nydekion barges in, takes a defender away and we hear a screech and see a deathsight. Another barge and now our leader is gone. Malicia, Narsrim and Talkan run in with Nydekion, and people are getting monked, inquisitioned, pinlegged to death and after we all die, we just group back up and go back at it. For hours. Because that's how things were back then.
Edit: and the population was much stronger back then. Hmmmm
I think a thread about conflict systems would be great. I agree that things were more lively when we had unscheduled conflict and raids weren't so punitive
Comments
Also Morkarion was *trying* to gank me. He couldn't kill me, even as I totally ignored him. I was just annoyed that he was making my bashing inefficient!
Good times. RIP Equinox.
I don't expect anyone who is fully invested and patriotic to do this.
Fairweather fighters will be fairweather fighters regardless of if they have loyalsays on or not.
Everytime I try to get out, they pull me back in.
Signature!
Greetings, Morticia.
You have likely come to paint me in an ill light, having suffered an unfortunate end, in part at my hands, and having been fed the bias of a bitter man, Morkarion. Despite this, I hope that you find truth in my words. I am sincere when I say that it was not my intent to cause harm unto you in the illithoid prison; I will offer explanation, of which I have recounted to many. This particular excerpt is what I have sent directly to the Dark Seneschal, who seeks recompense for a perceived transgression of the treaty between our nations.
---
Morkarion had been antagonising me as I hunted in the illithoid prison on a few occasions. I recognise that this is regarded as a defensible territory to some of Glomdoring; to Morkarion, I even expressed my admiration for his tenacity, as ill-placed as I conceived it to be. The first time that Morkarion struck against me, I slew him, and as such, he earned the protection of the Avenger. For times after, I began to ignore Morkarion's attacks, unable to defend myself without incurring the Avenger's wrath, and I merely continued to hunt despite his nuisance. However, after continued aggression, I grew tired of his assault, and instead drew upon the resources about me in an act of self-defense. I selectively killed the illithoid, leaving the inner worms to attack without discrimination. That is, I imposed the same risk unto myself, to suffer the wrath of the worms, in order to strike against Morkarion. For a time, this tactic proved to ward him away; I slew the worms and completed my hunting.
During the incident where Morticia perished, Morkarion gave his warning and proceeded to attack me. I again began to leave the worms, but he would not be deterred. At the time, I was aware of Morticia's presence in the prison, but she was a long distance from our skirmish. I had assumed Morkarion had notified his comrade of his declared assault or, in the very least, the danger she was in, as he was surely aware of what I was doing. In a previous instance, he had even expressed concern that Morticia, who was also in the area at an earlier time, was in danger, though I knew she had left when I began to leave the worms. However, in this instance, I had every reason to believe that she was aware.
Yet Morkarion would not cease, and I purposefully amassed many worms - more than I could keep track of. I drew them towards him, as he would not leave me be, and he began to run about the prison, in hopes that the worms would catch me before they did he. As time passed, unknownst to me, Morticia drew closer to us, and it was not until I had passed her on my way to Morkarion (note, he likely passed her first) that I had realised she was in danger. It was at that time that I had alerted Morkarion that she may befall an unfortunate accident, though there was not enough time. She soon after crossed the path of the worms, and in their voracious nature, they twice slaughtered her.
I went back for her at my own risk. It was I, not Morkarion, who passed through the army of worms to retrieve her fallen corpse. I then tracked Morkarion down so he might take her to safety to be revived. I do not know whether he did, and only seem to recall him continuing to attack me.
Simply, the accusation that I led the worms to Morticia is entirely inaccurate. I did not seek to cause her harm; if I did, I certainly had more direct means. As such, it would be wildly inappropriate for me to give her a "one minute warning" when I was in fact not attacking her. It was by circumstance of being in a hostile environment that she was slain. If anyone is to blame, it is Morkarion, for initiating such hostilities and not warning his comrade of the danger she was in, despite ample opportunity and foresight. One could even suppose that he led them to her himself, as I was following in his footsteps.
---
To you, Morticia, I will not apologise for what happened, as I do not perceive myself at fault. I certainly regret that you were harmed due to the recklessness of Morkarion and the volatile nature of the inner worms. I regret that I had thought Morkarion to be an honourable man. I did not believe that he would put you in harm's way, nor did I think he would be such a coward as to twist the events to absolve his own blame. That said, I do apologise for not contacting you sooner, as you do deserve the truth.
In hindsight, I should have offered you warning, but I was merely acting out of my own self-preservation. I wished to inflict harm unto Morkarion, justice for his attack against myself, and as such, I did not wish you to alert others to our skirmish, nor join him in defense. I was too focused upon avoiding the inner worms and tracking Morkarion that I did not mind your own movement within the area.
As you may have noticed, you have been granted Avenger's protection against myself, as the Oneiroi believed your death to require some compensation. I will not be using the worms to my advantage in the future, and so you need not be wary of me. Whether you wish to believe my story or otherwise is entirely up to you, but I have said my peace, and I will not attempt to contact you further. If you have further questions, I invite you to inquire to me directly.
Respectfully,
Lady Kelly McCloud
Pointing out griefers may be an irrelevant point to make, but if Silvanus is trying to make an appeal to us being generally nicer to each other, well...we are. We're kind of forced to by the egregious xp loss from dying in enemy territory, and people don't feel the same zeal against other orgs than previous years.
Intriguingly, that also correlates with the game's depression so far. Less conflict means less interested players. I'd say we all should be working to be more passionate and zealous in our dealings with others. More Taevyns and Baelfyres and people rallying behind them.
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
Its attitudes like this that I am calling out: "Magnagora isn't some innocent little flower. There are clear-cut reasons why people feel it's okay to grief you."
This is the first I have heard of Meliana quitting over Leolamins. As far as I knew, he didn't single anyone out - he just looked at affiliation and went looking for fun.
As to that scrying issue...I remember it well. You had it on him over and over for about a RL hour. That spam is annoying as hell. And well all know what the admin think of issuing over scrying spam, don't we? But we all agree it's obnoxious.
Signature!
(I do happily accept tags of bitch, psycho and so forth.)
Please wait until bardics come out and read my work.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
Narsrim. Munsia. Glomdoring had just opened. Viravain said "bleep off" to Magnagora, after the Fain debacle. The only other orgs were Celest and Serenwilde, who were like "eww, taint, get it off!"
Sooo, yeah.