For viscanti, using an active eq in a fight needs to worth using. Damage and an aff is nice but will be overshadowed by existing attacks in nearly all situations.
The damage buff that ramps up over time is neat but would be hard to time and standing around while everyone periodically holds their breath is annoying enough as it is.
How about something that you prep beforehand like breathing in on tainted land and and then you can exhale as a free action for a little poison damage and an aff. Something that you could combine with an attack you would use anyway would get more traction even if you wouldn't be able to use it repeatedly in one fight.
Or it could be a room attack or something that you could fire into adjacent rooms. It just needs a little something if people are going to use it.
Either the guilds that get a pair of 1/10's to their damage types get one damage type at 2/10, or the 2/10's get a second damage type and go at 1/10 each. We are in an age where damage types exist outside the class sets thanks to wands and whips.
Giving classes two 2/10s where other classes only gets one is not going to happen.
As to the Poison/Fire breath racials, there's the possibility to have them function as a "chance on hit" free attack with regards to damage vs other players. However having them function as room wide or adjacent room abilities is something you won't see in a tier four perk.
Either the guilds that get a pair of 1/10's to their damage types get one damage type at 2/10, or the 2/10's get a second damage type and go at 1/10 each. We are in an age where damage types exist outside the class sets thanks to wands and whips.
Giving classes two 2/10s where other classes only gets one is not going to happen.
Giving all specialisations two 1/10 damage buffs would be fine, I think. For those with a 100% damage type attack, the 1/10 buff will boost their attack by the same amount as those with a split damage-type attack, and at the same time, they get the same 1/10 buff to another damagetype they can buy a whip for, if they really want to make use of it.
So.. while sleeping over all this, I've been thinking that it would be nice if each race had some sort of utility skill that sets them apart from the others. Something that does -not- have a direct combat use, but enables them to do things that others may have to learn the respective skills for.
This is my list so far, it is not complete yet unfortunately. Ideas and suggestions would be more than welcome. It -could- be used to expand the entire race abilities for a lvl 75 thing, and imo would even the field. Where some race got the ability to dive and breathe underwater (skill+enchantment) others get additional resis or regens. So if each race gets one utility skill it might help even things out.
------------------------------
aslaran: sprint
dracnari: breathe fire (ignite, light pipes) - needs another demi power to compensate, but srsly, it needs that anyway, cause atm breathe fire is not on par with other demi powers out there.
dwarf: scale mountain
elfen: climb trees & cling
faeling: fly - needs another power to compensate
fink: enter sewers
furrikin: climb trees & cling
gnome:
human: scale up on rooftops
igasho: shake trees
illithoid:
kephera:
krokani: can scry
loboshigaru: can sprint
lucidian:
merian: can dive - needs another power to compensate
mugwump: can dive - needs another power to compensate
orclach:
tae'dae: shake trees
taurian: can crash in a direction
trill: can fly - needs another power to compensate
vistcanti: Can MUTATE once in their life, thanks to the power of the taint. Choose to grow wings (fly), or gills (dive + unterwater breathe), or focus on their speed (sprint), or breathe fire etc. something like that. (I think it would be neat from an RP perspective for viscanti really..)
wildewood: skill to see who's in the area with them (they're so goddamn huge), can take eq/bal to not invalidate the artifact
wyrdenwood: skill to see who's in the area with them (they're so goddamn huge), can take eq/bal to not invalidate the artifact
If demigod traits and abilities are underwhelming, we'll look to improve the actual ability through various means as opposed to scrapping it or pushing it to another tier.
We won't be adding another tier for various abilities, races are already having natural innates they had at character creation pushed up to 25, which works as they just come out of Newton and such traits start to have some function. We aren't going to suddenly deny them all the way until 75, nor take the entire environment skillset and dish it out to races.
That not all races have the same type of level 1 and 2 traits is fine, it keeps races different and somewhat unique until you get to the fourth tier of perks. Step by step homogenisation is not the goal here.
Well, it wasn't meant to be a lvl 75 thing per-se, but rather as opening the playing field for a general tier 75 - whatever gets pushed to there in the end. But I'm fine with not going there too, it was just an idea.
Also, Boni to races are nice, but I almost feel they have too much of a combat use and too little utility that would make a race different from others. In imy opinion a race is about something to make a character unique. The odd regeneration or resistance isn't that. In a game where about 90% of the population seem to be demigods, no one cares that some signifcant abilities, that make a race -that race- are at demigod level. The odd newb might however.
And I personally find it a bit weird: A dwarf who isn't a demigod cannot stomach his liquor well then?
Or even weirder: The help file says a dracnari is recognised by the ability to breathe fire, either you can and are dracnari or you cannot and are not dracnari... so does that mean a dracnari -has- to be a demigod to be a -real- dracnari, otherwise they aren't dracnari at all?
Anyhow, thank you for all those ideas and all the work.
Finally finished shoving in my thoughts and think I hit a point where perks at the demi level are worth it. Time for bed and will see if I think the same tomorrow!
On further thought, the village influencing for finks doesn't make sense to me. I'd rather have the level 50 slot have something far more finkish. Maybe incresed crits (due to their oversized hands?)
EDIT: Or the level 50 could be the movement speed bonus like aslaran. I'd rathern not lower the level 1 or level 25 resistances, especially for a pay 500 credits race.
I would love to be able to add a level 75 slot, give every race a race defining util power of distinction at level 25 or even level 1(if lvl 75 is not an option) , and then have that power boosted in some way at demigod level. I keep getting stuck with only 3 slots to choose from, and the fact that demi is a very very long term goal, and should not be the place where races distinguish themselves.
Just to represent the Sentinel side of things, the proposed lucidian/trill Level 50 buffs to divinus/excoro tied to Aeonics do nothing for lucidian/trill warriors. While div/excoro damage buffs are nice and whips are a thing, I don't believe someone should have to buy an artifact to make use of their racial perk.
I really like the current flavour of the different forms of race in the org specs so what would be preferable for me is something like the level 50 buff is where you gain a specialized form, that is appropriate for whatever spec you are.
Level 50 Lucidian: X level of regeneration outdoor daytime. Level 50 Trill: X level of regeneration in cloudy environments
Org Specced Lucidian: regen as above + one of the following Adamantine Lucidian: Buff to cutting/blunt damage, or some other type of Knighthood buff . Prismatic Lucidian: Buff to electric Crystalsinger Lucidian: Buff to cold
Org Specced Trill: regen as above + one of the following Storm Trill: Buff as Adamantine Lucidian Cloud Trill: Buff to electric Warbling Trill: Buff to influencing
Drops the excoro/divinus buff on Aeonics, which Researchers might not be too happy about, but thematically divinus/excorable damage on Aeonics doesn't really fit as is to me anyway.
Then alternative suggestion for the Lucidian Demi power is
REFRACT - Your crystalline body can refract and focus the ambient light to damage your target.
Basically a natural ability to ASTROCAST SUN RAY AT <target>.
Since not every lucidian will take astrology, and be able to check the target's nativity to determine the damage type, can have it just take whatever damage source from current sphere the Sun is in, which non-astrologer people can check with regular STARGAZE. If you can already astrocast, mebbe slight boost to damage/cast time.
Ties-in with the zi'Prouep sisters and lucidian mastery of astrology.
1
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
The spec race traits for Guardians and Wiccans should be triggered based on the Primary. For Warriors, based on the tertiary. Electric does nothing for Institute, so that should be separated out from Aeromancers. Divinus/Excoro for Institute seems fine flavour to me, or even just Magic. If we change each spec race to buff two damage types, then excoro/magic for lucidians and divinus/magic for trills sounds good.
This is more the issue that Sentinels are the only Knighthood spec without skill based access to magical damage. I'm conscious of giving org races (exceptions for -woods) bonuses to physical damage, as that was reserved for the Knight/Monk weapon specialisation races.
Supercharged is not being replaced, the proposal can be amended to add to the skill or adjusted it if people feel it's underwhelming, but the core concepts of tier four perks are not being replaced.
Also no to warbling trill. I intentionally removed influence bonuses from org races. While I hope this proposal encourages the use of them, it's not to make them the be all, end all race choices.
Speaking of influencing: Will this no-stat race system essentially make all equally good at influencing, or will there still be a difference? I.e. will a Warrior Orclash influence at the same rate as, say, a bard Faeling (assuming no guild skills boost influencing)?
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I guess I'm having trouble understanding the "no, you can't change the theme of the demi power," position.
Some of them are just not competitive on at the core. In a world of unlimited power, power regen will never be as useful as damage resistance or faster writhe/tumble. It's impossible to suggest with faeling/elfen regen will be without knowing what the regen levels will be. The success of a stat free race system is entirely dependent on the details. Yeah the damage boosts are great (for some people), which I guess is the justification for crappy demi powers, but even those still aren't equitable for a lot of us. Shadowdancers are still looking at a 1.5% buff compared to 6% for mages.
I'm struggling to get on board with this one. The minutiae makes or breaks this system.
The damage bonus options for racial specs was addressed in an earlier reply with the option of one choice or the other and the reason for that balance. So far no one other than Lerad and Shedrin has replied to this.
As to the demigod powers, the core theme remains, whether you adjust it or amend something onto it is a different matter, people have suggested various extra ideas such as an eyeblast variant or increased maximum reserves, either of which could be tacked onto the current trait.
One with Nature's base concept was taking the current Elfen/Faeling regeneration in forest environments and expanding it to a bonus that works in all natural or forested (read Hartstone/Blacktalon effects) areas. If regen does turn out to be substandard this can be changed, the trait is based around bonuses in those environments, not the bonus they get for being there.
If faster writhe+tumble is too strong, there are options to bring it down, the speed bonus could be reduced or only one gets the effect. The core of the perk doesn't change, the variables however, can.
Again this is all still a proposal, which is open to player feedback and ultimately is up to Estarra's approval.
Yes there will always be races situationally better in various circumstances, unless we go with a flavourless homogenisation of every race there will always be "better" races. I don't expect someone looking to min/max for PK to pick certain races, nor do I expect people who min/max bashing or influencing to pick others. There will be advantages but, when polished will be smaller than the current gulfs some races have over others.
We don't want a situation where it's Aslaran/Faeling/Merian/Mugwump master race all over again, and attempting to involve yourself in combat as other races was a punishment because you weren't optimal, or you had a massive drawback that was exploited. There are no races in this proposal that "suck" at X/Y/Z. There are no races where influencing is painfully slow, because you're an Orclach/Krokani/Illithoid and you're punished for not being Faeling or Warbling Trill. There are no races which suck in combat because you've no balance/eq bonuses and/or you have a fire malus and are getting blown up in seconds. There's no races that suck at bashing, some tank better, some do more damage, some have decent regen but no one outright sucks. If anything Furrikin have nothing to improve their bashing beyond a couple of racial resistances.
Again if some skills are underpar, they can be amended, if it's a case of one skill is too strong, it can be toned down. My goal isn't here to make every race valuable at top tier PK. My goal here is that people can pick a race and not spend the time hating themselves for doing so when the game is slow, and frustrating for what they want to do, min max should be a choice for those who want to do it, not a forced option for everyone who wants to have some involvement.
My goal isn't here to make every race valuable at top tier PK. My goal here is that people can pick a race and not spend the time hating themselves for doing so when the game is slow, and frustrating for what they want to do, min max should be a choice for those who want to do it, not a forced option for everyone who wants to have some involvement.
I think this system accomplishes that goal. Nothing too extreme and that can't be adjusted if need be.
Course us players like to theorize and argue. We get our jollies from it.
Elfen's actual thing pre-overhaul is being a giant statbag. None of the other (dis)advantages are particularly notable. I like the idea of moving the limited regen bonus to the 50 slot alongside the spec power and rolling out a new racial capstone.
Also no to warbling trill. I intentionally removed influence bonuses from org races. While I hope this proposal encourages the use of them, it's not to make them the be all, end all race choices.
Oh, this changes things a bit in my proposal spread for faeling then. I wanted to allude to their traditionally being successful at influencing by giving them influence buffs to weaken/seduction in the new system, but this needs changing then. Will shift things around.
I don't know about you guys but I'm thrilled to see where this is going. The previous skillweb-based proposal was a favourite of mine for a long time due to how it ties back into what we already have thematically and its potential (some of the pitfalls mentioned aside), but a world without stats? Now that's going to be pretty amazing and so much easier to balance.
It has occurred to me that the no-stats approach to race may substantially devalue the changeling cameo from a practical point of view. While it would still let you switch between sets of racial powers, the variation in power utility does not appear to be nearly as significant as switching between races currently, which can lead to substantial shifts in influence/bashing/pvp effectiveness. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Quite honestly, the way this is going, people are going to pick the "tumble" race for combat, the merian race for leading squads etcetc. And no one's going to be dracnari at demigod level because breathe fire is a bad joke. If anything, I'd expect to see more merian in Magnagora now..
@Baelor: Believe it or not, what's bugging me the most is that dracnari lore gets broken. Please give dracnari -some- way to breathe fire at a low level, and if it's only a racial emote. Otherwise the population of dracnari is going to floor-crash in the game. Every last denizen in Gaudiguch will no longer be dracnari.
I don't know about you guys but I'm thrilled to see where this is going. The previous skillweb-based proposal was a favourite of mine for a long time due to how it ties back into what we already have thematically and its potential (some of the pitfalls mentioned aside), but a world without stats? Now that's going to be pretty amazing and so much easier to balance.
Er, I don't think things will be as bad as described for Dracnari. There are a couple of good suggestions in the spreadsheet to make the Dracnari demi-ability better, and if they go with the suggestion for a faster ignite for icewalls/briars or faster tipharet, it would actually become fairly valuable from my point of view. In fact, the admin might not even go with that, and change it to something else as well, as there are suggestions for such as well. Furthermore, the implication here:
Please give dracnari -some- way to breathe fire at a low level, and if it's only a racial emote. Otherwise the population of dracnari is going to floor-crash in the game. Every last denizen in Gaudiguch will no longer be dracnari.
is just flat out wrong, in my opinion. If the proposed racial abilities of Dracnari are going to be unpopular, giving them breathe-fire in its current iteration, or as a racial emote, will be the least effective method of making them popular. Sweeping statements of "every last person in Gaudi will no longer be Dracnari" is the easiest to debunk, because it's literally never going to be true.
The cameo will still have its place, especially with the demi-abilities being situational. It might be an idea to roll the artifact-boosting effect of the demi-ability into the cameo artifact, but that's up to the admin to decide, either way, many of the races do have situationally useful abilities that continue to make the cameo useful. If absolutely nothing else, the racial resistances can help with covering the weaknesses of guild-based resistance setups based on certain pvp matchups or even pve targets.
I'm not arguing balance here. The demi power for dracnari in the current spreadsheet is bad. It might get changed to something better, it might not. It will -still- open the way for people to choose that race easier than in the current stat+race combo. But I really don't want to go there, other people can do that.
What bugs me is this. C/P'd from the HELP DRACNARI file:
Like the merians, dracnari do not recognize half-breeds: either you are a dracnari or are not, denoted by the ability to breathe fire.
This is what bugs me. I think we can assume that no Gaudiguch denizen is a demigod. As a result, no one will be able to breathe fire, thus no one is a dracnari. So my statement is correct (I said denizen there for a reason, not 'person'). :P
I don't think any other race has that problem. Merian get their dive thing much earlier so it's a non-issue. Dracnari seem the only race that get -the- defining race feature at demigod level.
So yes, please give them some shot-down version or racial emote to breathe fire at an early level... or find another way to rule out weird dracnari half-breeds.
EDIT: To clarify: I'm aruging lore in the hopes that it won't be forgotten about and make me apply my head to the table later on, trying to sort out the oxymoron.
Comments
Giving classes two 2/10s where other classes only gets one is not going to happen.
This is my list so far, it is not complete yet unfortunately. Ideas and suggestions would be more than welcome. It -could- be used to expand the entire race abilities for a lvl 75 thing, and imo would even the field. Where some race got the ability to dive and breathe underwater (skill+enchantment) others get additional resis or regens. So if each race gets one utility skill it might help even things out.
------------------------------
aslaran: sprint
dracnari: breathe fire (ignite, light pipes) - needs another demi power to compensate, but srsly, it needs that anyway, cause atm breathe fire is not on par with other demi powers out there.
dwarf: scale mountain
elfen: climb trees & cling
faeling: fly - needs another power to compensate
fink: enter sewers
furrikin: climb trees & cling
gnome:
human: scale up on rooftops
igasho: shake trees
illithoid:
kephera:
krokani: can scry
loboshigaru: can sprint
lucidian:
merian: can dive - needs another power to compensate
mugwump: can dive - needs another power to compensate
orclach:
tae'dae: shake trees
taurian: can crash in a direction
trill: can fly - needs another power to compensate
vistcanti: Can MUTATE once in their life, thanks to the power of the taint. Choose to grow wings (fly), or gills (dive + unterwater breathe), or focus on their speed (sprint), or breathe fire etc. something like that. (I think it would be neat from an RP perspective for viscanti really..)
wildewood: skill to see who's in the area with them (they're so goddamn huge), can take eq/bal to not invalidate the artifact
wyrdenwood: skill to see who's in the area with them (they're so goddamn huge), can take eq/bal to not invalidate the artifact
-------------
Yes / No to this idea?
We won't be adding another tier for various abilities, races are already having natural innates they had at character creation pushed up to 25, which works as they just come out of Newton and such traits start to have some function. We aren't going to suddenly deny them all the way until 75, nor take the entire environment skillset and dish it out to races.
Also, Boni to races are nice, but I almost feel they have too much of a combat use and too little utility that would make a race different from others. In imy opinion a race is about something to make a character unique. The odd regeneration or resistance isn't that. In a game where about 90% of the population seem to be demigods, no one cares that some signifcant abilities, that make a race -that race- are at demigod level. The odd newb might however.
And I personally find it a bit weird: A dwarf who isn't a demigod cannot stomach his liquor well then?
Or even weirder: The help file says a dracnari is recognised by the ability to breathe fire, either you can and are dracnari or you cannot and are not dracnari... so does that mean a dracnari -has- to be a demigod to be a -real- dracnari, otherwise they aren't dracnari at all?
Anyhow, thank you for all those ideas and all the work.
EDIT: Or the level 50 could be the movement speed bonus like aslaran. I'd rathern not lower the level 1 or level 25 resistances, especially for a pay 500 credits race.
I keep getting stuck with only 3 slots to choose from, and the fact that demi is a very very long term goal, and should not be the place where races distinguish themselves.
I really like the current flavour of the different forms of race in the org specs so what would be preferable for me is something like the level 50 buff is where you gain a specialized form, that is appropriate for whatever spec you are.
Level 50 Lucidian: X level of regeneration outdoor daytime.
Level 50 Trill: X level of regeneration in cloudy environments
Org Specced Lucidian: regen as above + one of the following
Adamantine Lucidian: Buff to cutting/blunt damage, or some other type of Knighthood buff .
Prismatic Lucidian: Buff to electric
Crystalsinger Lucidian: Buff to cold
Org Specced Trill: regen as above + one of the following
Storm Trill: Buff as Adamantine Lucidian
Cloud Trill: Buff to electric
Warbling Trill: Buff to influencing
Drops the excoro/divinus buff on Aeonics, which Researchers might not be too happy about, but thematically divinus/excorable damage on Aeonics doesn't really fit as is to me anyway.
Then alternative suggestion for the Lucidian Demi power is
REFRACT - Your crystalline body can refract and focus the ambient light to damage your target.
Basically a natural ability to ASTROCAST SUN RAY AT <target>.
Since not every lucidian will take astrology, and be able to check the target's nativity to determine the damage type, can have it just take whatever damage source from current sphere the Sun is in, which non-astrologer people can check with regular STARGAZE. If you can already astrocast, mebbe slight boost to damage/cast time.
Ties-in with the zi'Prouep sisters and lucidian mastery of astrology.
Supercharged is not being replaced, the proposal can be amended to add to the skill or adjusted it if people feel it's underwhelming, but the core concepts of tier four perks are not being replaced.
Also no to warbling trill. I intentionally removed influence bonuses from org races. While I hope this proposal encourages the use of them, it's not to make them the be all, end all race choices.
As to the demigod powers, the core theme remains, whether you adjust it or amend something onto it is a different matter, people have suggested various extra ideas such as an eyeblast variant or increased maximum reserves, either of which could be tacked onto the current trait.
One with Nature's base concept was taking the current Elfen/Faeling regeneration in forest environments and expanding it to a bonus that works in all natural or forested (read Hartstone/Blacktalon effects) areas. If regen does turn out to be substandard this can be changed, the trait is based around bonuses in those environments, not the bonus they get for being there.
If faster writhe+tumble is too strong, there are options to bring it down, the speed bonus could be reduced or only one gets the effect. The core of the perk doesn't change, the variables however, can.
Again this is all still a proposal, which is open to player feedback and ultimately is up to Estarra's approval.
Yes there will always be races situationally better in various circumstances, unless we go with a flavourless homogenisation of every race there will always be "better" races. I don't expect someone looking to min/max for PK to pick certain races, nor do I expect people who min/max bashing or influencing to pick others. There will be advantages but, when polished will be smaller than the current gulfs some races have over others.
We don't want a situation where it's Aslaran/Faeling/Merian/Mugwump master race all over again, and attempting to involve yourself in combat as other races was a punishment because you weren't optimal, or you had a massive drawback that was exploited. There are no races in this proposal that "suck" at X/Y/Z. There are no races where influencing is painfully slow, because you're an Orclach/Krokani/Illithoid and you're punished for not being Faeling or Warbling Trill. There are no races which suck in combat because you've no balance/eq bonuses and/or you have a fire malus and are getting blown up in seconds. There's no races that suck at bashing, some tank better, some do more damage, some have decent regen but no one outright sucks. If anything Furrikin have nothing to improve their bashing beyond a couple of racial resistances.
Again if some skills are underpar, they can be amended, if it's a case of one skill is too strong, it can be toned down. My goal isn't here to make every race valuable at top tier PK. My goal here is that people can pick a race and not spend the time hating themselves for doing so when the game is slow, and frustrating for what they want to do, min max should be a choice for those who want to do it, not a forced option for everyone who wants to have some involvement.
Course us players like to theorize and argue. We get our jollies from it.
@Baelor: Believe it or not, what's bugging me the most is that dracnari lore gets broken. Please give dracnari -some- way to breathe fire at a low level, and if it's only a racial emote. Otherwise the population of dracnari is going to floor-crash in the game. Every last denizen in Gaudiguch will no longer be dracnari.
I'm not arguing balance here. The demi power for dracnari in the current spreadsheet is bad. It might get changed to something better, it might not. It will -still- open the way for people to choose that race easier than in the current stat+race combo. But I really don't want to go there, other people can do that.
What bugs me is this. C/P'd from the HELP DRACNARI file:
Like the merians, dracnari do not recognize half-breeds: either
you are a dracnari or are not, denoted by the ability to breathe fire.
This is what bugs me. I think we can assume that no Gaudiguch denizen is a demigod. As a result, no one will be able to breathe fire, thus no one is a dracnari. So my statement is correct (I said denizen there for a reason, not 'person'). :P
I don't think any other race has that problem. Merian get their dive thing much earlier so it's a non-issue. Dracnari seem the only race that get -the- defining race feature at demigod level.
So yes, please give them some shot-down version or racial emote to breathe fire at an early level... or find another way to rule out weird dracnari half-breeds.
EDIT: To clarify: I'm aruging lore in the hopes that it won't be forgotten about and make me apply my head to the table later on, trying to sort out the oxymoron.