There should be 5 cut and 5 blunt physical affliction ailments (one for each body part) which would be tied to wounds. But there can be 3 tiered effects for each. These wound effects would be permanent so long as the wound level exists. Ice would cure the wounds down (and therefore remove the effects).
This would be separate from the specific skills in each spec that would give bleed, vomit, extra damage, etc.
This interpretation seems to be different from how Kelly proposed it. Should we proceed under this assumption instead of hers?
Still doable, will need more retooling
Yes, this is different from Kelly's proposal but it is the system I used when writing the examples... Just incase there is any confusion. The end result is pretty much the same , it just reverses the tables. (I think)
Ok, I added a sheet for Ailments etc.. Please feel free to change them if there is something that makes more sense. (i.e. if preventing smoking and lucidity slush doesn't make sense with the other possible afflictions and should be eating and salves instead, or something)
I was thinking on it some more, but if warrior wounds are getting cut way down, wouldn't that mean that poison reliance would need to increase in order to maintain general affliction pressure?
Basically, are the admin willing to look at shrugging from resilience and possibly remove that effect? Or is that even something people would be interested in? If you can guarantee paralysis every hit, then having less effective wounds that only do effects and no affs becomes entirely more plausible.
I was thinking on it some more, but if warrior wounds are getting cut way down, wouldn't that mean that poison reliance would need to increase in order to maintain general affliction pressure?
Basically, are the admin willing to look at shrugging from resilience and possibly remove that effect? Or is that even something people would be interested in? If you can guarantee paralysis every hit, then having less effective wounds that only do effects and no affs becomes entirely more plausible.
What do you guys think.
Sounds fine, though it'll also affect beast spit from other classes, so keep that in mind.
Removal of shrugging would affect Ecologists, Trackers, Nekotai and Poisonists as well who have poison shrugging as part of their defenses. I can agree with the balancing of decreased warrior affs with increased poison reliance, but just need to ensure these folk are aware of changes that may need to be envoyed.
I was thinking on it some more, but if warrior wounds are getting cut way down, wouldn't that mean that poison reliance would need to increase in order to maintain general affliction pressure?
Basically, are the admin willing to look at shrugging from resilience and possibly remove that effect? Or is that even something people would be interested in? If you can guarantee paralysis every hit, then having less effective wounds that only do effects and no affs becomes entirely more plausible.
What do you guys think.
I don't think this is needed. At least not on the first implementation, and especially if higher deepwounding means boosted affliction effect (my understanding of one of proposals). Though may change my tune later.
Blademaster may have most to lose, with lessened herb stack but for the other specs, lot of the affs don't feature much in the scheme of things. Stuns, sprawls and regen cured or lock-affliction things are the bread and butter. e.g like all arnica cured afflictions for Bonecrusher (aside from breakchest) could go and there'd be no real difference.
Removal of shrugging would affect Ecologists, Trackers, Nekotai and Poisonists as well who have poison shrugging as part of their defenses. I can agree with the balancing of decreased warrior affs with increased poison reliance, but just need to ensure these folk are aware of changes that may need to be envoyed.
I'm biased as to Nekotai, but I think probably all of those specs should keep their shrugging if it were removed from Resilience (albeit at a tuned-down rate).
Nekotai spit has a dual function, it blocks the first poison you are hit by if it is not on cooldown, and while there is a poison in your spit (and you haven't used it yet) it boosts shrugging rate during that period.
I'm fine with shrugging being removed, Nekotai will have less shrugging (when poison is stored) but at the same time, Nekotai poison rate will be increased a great deal. A defensive loss for an offensive boost, as it were, which is fine by my books.
The bigger question is whether warriors need it - guarantee'd paralysis every hit, especially since it is a delayed cure, would be fairly ridiculous (god knows I would have a field day, every day, with something like that). The effects tied to wound levels are strong enough in my opinion to not require such a boost, is my opinion, but I'm not a warrior, so I might be wrong.
Are the lack of comments about the sheet because its good enough, or because so bad its not worth commenting on?
I was sort of expecting there to be some confusion/objection to how Lacerations/Contusions and Amputate works.
Also, is it a problem if some effects are created by one specialisation on the leg at heavy, while another specialisation might do the same effect on the gut at Critical?
Lastly, are the different specializations diverse enough?
Using @Estarra 's interpretation of curing, this is what I've come up with.
Essentially, the various warrior attacks (strike, hack, etc etc - or you can delete all of these and just do strikes, your choice) will add 1 wound to the body part hit. Every X hits, the wound level increases (none->light->heavy->critical). Ice cures wound levels by 1 per apply per body part. External affs (given by warriors) are also cured by ice. You can either cure external affs or wounds per application of ice. Hitting a victim with a wound affliction will not increase wound levels.
The effects listed below are the passive effects that remain on your character while you are at that wound level. None of these are actually afflictions, they just modify the various afflictions that spec wound afflictions can do to you. For example, hitting the head as BC will increase any blackouts dealt by the BC by 1-2s depending on the wound level.
Cut (Light/Heavy/Critical):
Head - +1s heal balance, +2 heal balance, +3 heal balance (increase sip/sparkle/scroll balance by the amount listed)
Chest - +1s paralysis, +2s paralysis, +3s paralysis (increases the time before paralysis is fully cured)
Gut - +1s writhe, +2s writhe, +3s writhe (increases time spent on blade before writhing free)
Arms - +1s ice balance, +2s ice balance, +3s ice balance (increases time before you regain ice balance)
Legs - 10% chance to parry/stance, -20% chance to parry/stance, -30% chance to parry/stance (reduces the chances of a successful parry/stance)
Blunt (Light/Heavy/Critical):
Head - +1s blackout, +1.5s blackout, +2s blackout (increases the length of time blackout lasts)
Chest - +1s stun, +1.5s stun, +2s stun (increases the length of time stun lasts)
Gut - +1s balance loss, +1.5s balance loss, +2s balance loss (increases the length of time offbalancing moves last)
Arms - +1s ice balance, +2s ice balance, +3 ice balance (increases time before you regain ice balance)
Legs - 10% chance to parry/stance, -20% chance to parry/stance, -30% chance to parry/stance (reduces the chances of a successful parry/stance)
Cutting affs tend to have better effects as you build wounds, blunt affs have better immediate effects and taper off. Arms and leg effects remain the same. Suggestions are welcome to either improve the effects or give a different type of effect that meshes better. I want to add a bleed modifier to cutting somewhere, and probably whatever Estarra decides for blunt to blunt. DISCLAIMER: THESE ARE SAMPLE NUMBERS, DON'T FREAK OUT.
External Affs (10 total, per request):
1. DamagedThroat (neutral, replaces windpipe/slit throat) - No sipping lucidity / drinking health
2. InternalFailure (neutral, replaces burstorgans/disembowel) - Death after 12s.
3. Lacerated (cut, replaces arteries/lacerations/anything that does bleed) - lots of passive bleeding cured by ice
4. BrokenArm (neutral, same) - same as broken arm, no parry
5. MutilatedArm (neutral, replaces breakwrist/amputate/crackelbow) - same effect as its replacements all rolled into one, turns into broken arm when cured.
6. BrokenLeg (neutral, same) - same as broken leg, no stance
7. MutilatedLeg (neutral, replaces crushleg/amputate/shatterankle/tendon) - same effect as its replacements all rolled into one, turns into broken leg when cured.
8. Severspine (cut, same) - paralysis cured by ice
9. Impale (cut, same) - same as current impale
10. FractureSkull (blunt, same) - stupidity cured by ice
I've completely filled out the Knighthood and BC portion of the spreadsheet using the ideas above. BC's revolve around using stun and blackout to score a bashbrain. Click each cell to see my comment. HERE IS A LINK TO THE SPREADSHEET AGAIN BECAUSE I'M NICE
Legend:
Change - Change functionality of skill, same effect usually.
Replace - Replace with new existing/external aff
Remove - Delete
Ask if anything's unclear and/or let me know what you think.
I'll work on the other specs in the meanwhile, too sleepy.
Update: Changed leg effect to reduce the effects of stance/parry. Added explanations of the type of change on spreadsheet.
Interesting (in a good way) but why did you decide to make it so that you either heal a wound or an affliction rather than just curing the wound and when it go down a level, it cures the affliction?
I like the scaling affects, but from what I read changing balance times for such long periods of time is a big "no no" for group combat.
I would love if that was gone. I can't say what sort of balancing effort would need to be made though.
On the other hand, I never have and still do not understand how it is even possible to balance around an RNG effect. If you get lucky and paralysis hits every tick, it's OMG OP NERF, if they shrug 10 times in a row it's WHAA WARRIORS R USELESS!. So ... wouldn't it be easier for balancing to not bother with RNG?
As an afterthought: Removing RNG from poisons might also lessen the entrance barrier to combat. After all, that means one less skill you absolutely have to have transed to not get screwed.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
My suggestion is to ditch the celerity effect and change it to a prone and unable to stand for x seconds, or maybe move ice to legs and change arm damage to length of time parry is ineffective. Celerity is kind of meh when considering that actually walking out is not a particularly common way to escape. Usually involves barrier, flying, cubixes, etc.
I will also say this appears to give cutting the edge in solo pvp but blunt the edge in group pvp.
The only thing I don't understand yet is the kill condition. Are we upping warrior damage or something?
I can agree with the leg part, tbh I ran out of ideas for legs and I kind of wanted to do an effect that pretty much nullified springup, but the problem is that I'm not sure if the admin would like a "new" effect. I tried to stick to mechanics that already existed. I'm kind of fond of slower ice balance on arms to add affliction pressure, I figure the broken/mutilated arm part would keep parry down long enough.
RE: kill condition - that's where I have a bit of trouble too. ATM, I just set the kill condition for my version of BC to be crit head + fractureskull, then you do the move and they die. I figure that it'd be easy to work your way up to crit head, but sticking fractureskull will involve stacking the chest stuns (with high chest wounds to make it last long) and blackout (high head wounds) to do the command.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Well maybe just a prone of some kind, since that is why people go for legs under the current system.
1.) Pigwidgeon-ish effect(%chance to fail leaving a room) 2.) %chance to get sprawled upon losing balance/eq.
Anyway,
BRACE YOURSELVES, GLOMDORING.
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
Upon actually reading the thread more thoroughly, my biggest concern is that warrior may lose its current "feel"... My preference is for any system that maintains the mechanics as much as possible, while paring down the filler afflictions and layers of RNG to achieve more of the simplicity desired by the overhaul.
Warrior combat is by far my favourite system in Lusternia and has always kept me coming back, despite the occasional headdesk and dramatic but personally necessary spin2oblivion.
To be honest, I'm unsure where monks stand at this point. I rather like their design as they are now. Granted, yes, momentum is a pretty dumb mechanic insofar as if I do well, I will do better. That could definitely use some loving. But the customizability of their offense, getting to in essence program my own attacks, has deepened my understanding of affliction interaction in general. I imagine forms and the like will still be an aspect of monk combat, but the more warrior stuff I'm reading, the more I'm having a hard time figuring out how exactly they'll differentiate.
If I can ask, @Estarra, are there any firmer plans about what's going to be done with monks yet?
Blademaster rework suggestion is in. This spec focuses on bleeds and getting impales to score rends over and over until you can behead. HERE'S A SWEET LINK
Man, it's pretty tough trying to figure stuff out.
I went and changed the leg wounds effect to better suit getting something more for warriors out of it. Comments please.
I also added definitions of what I meant by Change/Remove/Replace.
I've been keeping tabs on the updates to the worksheet. Shuyin, I noticed you had 3 critical effects for blademaster. Again, I was thinking the specs would only have 1 or possibly 2 critical effects only. I think you'll find when you try to flesh out all 5 specs that they will begin to look almost identical to each other if you try and give them multiple critical effects.
Anyway, I'll wait to see how far you guys go and then work on taking ideas from everyone to come up with a cohesive design. I like parts of both of what Shuyin and Daganev have come up with.
We've been chasing our tails discussing the best way to approach warriors and overhaul, looking over Kaimanahi's, Shuyin's and Daganev's proposals, and knocking ideas around amongst ourselves. One of my hopes as an end goal is to just have 4 cures: apply (ice), smoke (steam), eat (dust) and drink (slush). No applying health, no eating chervil, etc.
Thus, I was liking the idea of physical afflictions ONLY being tied to wounds and wounds be cured ONLY by ice (thus, applying ice cures physical afflictions/wounds).
Now, let's look outside of the box and ponder something completely different:
What if there were NO APPLICATION CURES for wounds.
What if there were no effects from wounds (other than warriors being able to do better effects).
What if drinking health cured down wounds as well as healing your health.
What if the more wounded you were, the more the health potion would cure down those wounds and less heal your actual health.
What if there was no way to direct your health potion to cure down a specific body part (i.e., drinking health potion would affect all body parts depending on how wounded each is).
Obviously, this would greatly help warriors to get damage kills. It would also allow us to focus on 10 physical affliction ailments that would not be tied to wounds. As for specific skill effects for warriors, we could do either one of the 10 new physical afflictions (which Shuyin was contemplating) or an effect not tied to an affliction like extra damage, bleeding, vomiting, etc. (which Kaimanahi and Daganev were contemplating).
Following some discussion with the envoys, what we're thinking as an option for wound curing is something like this (very roughly):
- APPLY HEALTH is removed, and ice is used only to cure external afflictions.
- Wounds are cured by sipping health. By default, wound curing is spread across all damaged limbs (either an equal number of wounds per limb, or scaled some so that more damaged limbs get cured a bit more).
- After enough wounds are on the person, sipping health starts curing less health and healing more wounds.
- Stances would be repurposed so that stancing a limb or area would focus the wound curing on those limbs by shifting the limb scaling away from neutral, allowing a method for focusing on wounds on specific limbs.
We are definitely interested in other ideas, though. Our main motivation here is that we want to get rid of APPLY HEALTH, but that leaves us in the position where we have ice curing both wounds and afflictions, which itself necessitates having wounds and afflictions basically be the same thing, or having ice have two completely separate functions (wounds curing and aff curing). Both of these options have their issues, and ideally we'd like to come up with a way to avoid those issues while keeping only four affliction cures.
To be honest, I'm unsure where monks stand at this point. I rather like their design as they are now. Granted, yes, momentum is a pretty dumb mechanic insofar as if I do well, I will do better. That could definitely use some loving. But the customizability of their offense, getting to in essence program my own attacks, has deepened my understanding of affliction interaction in general. I imagine forms and the like will still be an aspect of monk combat, but the more warrior stuff I'm reading, the more I'm having a hard time figuring out how exactly they'll differentiate.
If I can ask, @Estarra, are there any firmer plans about what's going to be done with monks yet?
I think monks are being tabled at the moment, which is probably the right call for this thread. Its easier to understand what to do with Monks once we have a good plan for warriors, since warriors are the more problematic.
Obviously, this would greatly help warriors to get damage kills. It would also allow us to focus on 10 physical affliction ailments that would not be tied to wounds. As for specific skill effects for warriors, we could do either one of the 10 new physical afflictions (which Shuyin was contemplating) or an effect not tied to an affliction like extra damage, bleeding, vomiting, etc. (which Kaimanahi and Daganev were contemplating).
I'm a bit confused on this part though. Are you suggesting that there would be 10 physical afflictions that are granted at various wound levels, and then another set of unnumbered affects which will make each specification unique?
So in the end you'll have something like 5 blunt, 5 cutting afflictions, stun, blackout, vommiting, extra damage, bleeding, paralysis etc. And then some specializations will focus on bleeding, some on stuns, some on other techniques?
Bleeding would then become something that is only healed by clotting?
Warriors/Monks attack specific body parts, causing wounds to that body part and external afflictions based on wound level. Health potion both restores health and cures wounding, but the more wounding you have the less effecting the health restoration is. External afflictions are cured by applying ice, regardless of wound level. Ice has no effect on wounding, just the resulting afflictions. The distinction between various skills would be in which external afflictions it inflicts from wounding what body part and therefore which build toward which.
What I'm confused about is the numbers. There are 15 wound slots for both cutting and blunt.(30 total?) Are we being asked to come up with 10 afflictions for those 15/30 slots (And which slots they use will be the only difference between specializations) or something else?
Comments
Basically, are the admin willing to look at shrugging from resilience and possibly remove that effect? Or is that even something people would be interested in? If you can guarantee paralysis every hit, then having less effective wounds that only do effects and no affs becomes entirely more plausible.
What do you guys think.
Blademaster may have most to lose, with lessened herb stack but for the other specs, lot of the affs don't feature much in the scheme of things. Stuns, sprawls and regen cured or lock-affliction things are the bread and butter. e.g like all arnica cured afflictions for Bonecrusher (aside from breakchest) could go and there'd be no real difference.
Also, is it a problem if some effects are created by one specialisation on the leg at heavy, while another specialisation might do the same effect on the gut at Critical?
Lastly, are the different specializations diverse enough?
I like the scaling affects, but from what I read changing balance times for such long periods of time is a big "no no" for group combat.
I would love if that was gone. I can't say what sort of balancing effort would need to be made though.
On the other hand, I never have and still do not understand how it is even possible to balance around an RNG effect. If you get lucky and paralysis hits every tick, it's OMG OP NERF, if they shrug 10 times in a row it's WHAA WARRIORS R USELESS!. So ... wouldn't it be easier for balancing to not bother with RNG?
As an afterthought: Removing RNG from poisons might also lessen the entrance barrier to combat. After all, that means one less skill you absolutely have to have transed to not get screwed.
1.) Pigwidgeon-ish effect(%chance to fail leaving a room)
2.) %chance to get sprawled upon losing balance/eq.
Anyway,
BRACE YOURSELVES, GLOMDORING.
Anyway, I'll wait to see how far you guys go and then work on taking ideas from everyone to come up with a cohesive design. I like parts of both of what Shuyin and Daganev have come up with.
Thus, I was liking the idea of physical afflictions ONLY being tied to wounds and wounds be cured ONLY by ice (thus, applying ice cures physical afflictions/wounds).
Now, let's look outside of the box and ponder something completely different:
Obviously, this would greatly help warriors to get damage kills. It would also allow us to focus on 10 physical affliction ailments that would not be tied to wounds. As for specific skill effects for warriors, we could do either one of the 10 new physical afflictions (which Shuyin was contemplating) or an effect not tied to an affliction like extra damage, bleeding, vomiting, etc. (which Kaimanahi and Daganev were contemplating).
Following some discussion with the envoys, what we're thinking as an option for wound curing is something like this (very roughly):
- APPLY HEALTH is removed, and ice is used only to cure external afflictions.
- Wounds are cured by sipping health. By default, wound curing is spread across all damaged limbs (either an equal number of wounds per limb, or scaled some so that more damaged limbs get cured a bit more).
- After enough wounds are on the person, sipping health starts curing less health and healing more wounds.
- Stances would be repurposed so that stancing a limb or area would focus the wound curing on those limbs by shifting the limb scaling away from neutral, allowing a method for focusing on wounds on specific limbs.
We are definitely interested in other ideas, though. Our main motivation here is that we want to get rid of APPLY HEALTH, but that leaves us in the position where we have ice curing both wounds and afflictions, which itself necessitates having wounds and afflictions basically be the same thing, or having ice have two completely separate functions (wounds curing and aff curing). Both of these options have their issues, and ideally we'd like to come up with a way to avoid those issues while keeping only four affliction cures.
So in the end you'll have something like 5 blunt, 5 cutting afflictions, stun, blackout, vommiting, extra damage, bleeding, paralysis etc. And then some specializations will focus on bleeding, some on stuns, some on other techniques?
Warriors/Monks attack specific body parts, causing wounds to that body part and external afflictions based on wound level.
Health potion both restores health and cures wounding, but the more wounding you have the less effecting the health restoration is.
External afflictions are cured by applying ice, regardless of wound level. Ice has no effect on wounding, just the resulting afflictions.
The distinction between various skills would be in which external afflictions it inflicts from wounding what body part and therefore which build toward which.