DamagedLimb = similar to Kelly, leg = no stand + sprawl, arms = wield and no refilling
DisabledLimb = similar to Kelly, leg = damaged effects + no tumble, arms = damaged effects + no parry (need both arms)
8 new affs (?)
The rationale is that the initial proposal still relied too much on RNG and didn't really reward a warrior with results specific to achieving his or her kill condition. Warriors typically had some sort of locking feature, so moving these over to externals opens up spec-specific spots. The effects also seemed to have too big of an impact on groups. I've tried to amend this with the above suggestions. You can replace damaged lungs/throat/gut with boring anorexia/asthma/etc if you want to conserve space.
RE: Specs - Cumulative effects as discussed
BM (critical head goal with secondary bleed based goal):
Head - bleed 1, CostlyClot, Behead
Chest - bleed 1, FailureClot, SeveredSpine
Gut - bleed 1, SlowerClot, Impale,
Arms - Haemophilia, bleed 3, Bleed 5
Legs - Prone, bleed 3, Bleed 5
4 new affs (?)
CostlyClot - costs more mana to clot
FailureClot - clot has a chance to fail
SlowerClot - clot cures less bleed
SeveredSpine - super paralysis
Possible bleed instakill here to pursue, might need to make it unique v. finalsting (?)
Tbh, BM can probably also be moved to an aff-based route instead of bleed if people think that bleed is more thematically suited for a PB or something.
Ideally, I think I want about 4 unique affs per spec, to differentiate them a bit. Furthermore, I'd like to introduce secondary instakill avenues to pursue in the event that the first is untenable for a variety of reasons. Lastly, you're going to want something of a synergy that plays up to a kill goal and clearly has a point.
Since I'm at it, here's my not-fully-fleshed-out goals for the other specs:
BC - bashbrain, damage secondary
PB - heartpierce (chest instakill?), limbs secondary (needs work, this is weak)
AL - severtorso (gut instakill?), execute secondary
CV -sunder (heavy head + chest instakill?), skewer secondary
Anyway, here it is. Numbers are debatable, the intent is what's important.
Bleed is going away 100%, based on what I've seen in this thread, 1301 and the finalsting changes are irrelevant
I agree with Rivius and his suggestions for afflictions and a warrior kill roadmap. I would be okay with that as the warrior overhaul.
A few other miscellaneous thoughts. Relying on a disembowel/burst organs like affliction for a kill is not really viable as already mentioned.
Also, care needs to be taken in not just duplicating the same afflictions on two-handed weapons as one-handed weapons. The two-handed weapons not only need to be able to up wounds faster, but the actual afflictions need to be stronger (or the kill state easier). Otherwise, one-handed weapons have a huge advantage in that they get double the afflictions once they've both reached the same wound-level.
Re: bleed - is it really? Admittedly I haven't kept up with that part of the discussion. What's the official plan for that?
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Would appreciate the go or no go on the bleed change. I'm sitting on my hands right now with reports because SDs are pretty unaffected by the overhaul thus far. A warning about removing bleeding would give me some time to change things now rather than flailing for a couple months without it.
I think your suggested list(s) of afflictions is cool. It's probably more of what Estarra had in mind than what I've been able to post about, too. Hopefully it is of help to Estarra.
Getting rid of BurstOrgans would be nice. It's very rarely useful, and probably can just be cut.
Shuyin's list seems pretty workable, though I like the idea of having the head be the primary kill method for all specs. This keeps things simpler from a defender's pov, but also keeps Warriors synergizing in a group. I'm not really opposed to having each spec be different, though.
I like the way bleeding works currently, and echo that it would require a lot of changes to a lot of guilds to rework it.
I'm tabling the bleeding discussion until we decide on the warrior mechanic.
I'm still having trouble trouble seeing what the skillsets will look like. I've created a Warrior Spec Google Worksheet that anyone can edit with tabs for each of the specs. I'm curious if anyone wants to use the Kaimanahi/Shuyin ideas to fill out the skills that will be replaced. Add suggestions to a separate column with your name as the column header (resize for easy reading). Obviously, we can't replace all of the skills that would be lost (though it'd be nice if we could!) but definitely we should aim to replace a majority (over half of those removed).
EDIT: To be clear, I'm having trouble seeing how the skillsets would look without them being extremely repetitive with each other.
BTW, re-looking at Shuyin's post, it appears he's adding new afflictions. I'd rather not do that. My read of Kaimanahi's proposal was 5 physical afflictions (I'd prefer 10-5 cut/5 blunt) with 3 levels which are tied to wounds. The hit effects (i.e., individual skills) would be either immediate (bleed, extra damage, stun) or an existing affliction (vomiting, etc.)--in other words, not new afflictions.
I'm in the middle of writing what all the specs would look like. I'm trying to replace the skills almost 1 for 1, but I noticed that Cavalier has a lot more skills than Bonecrusher or Blademaster, so I'm also trying to make the skill list more compareable between the specs. Is it ok if I post it stright and not in the google doc?
Sure but note Cavalier has several (necessary) mount-related skills which is why it is longer than the other skillsets. I don't mind that it is longer because of that.
BTW, re-looking at Shuyin's post, it appears he's adding new afflictions. I'd rather not do that. My read of Kaimanahi's proposal was 5 physical afflictions (I'd prefer 10-5 cut/5 blunt) with 3 levels which are tied to wounds. The hit effects (i.e., individual skills) would be either immediate (bleed, extra damage, stun) or an existing affliction (vomiting, etc.)--in other words, not new afflictions.
When you mean new afflictions, are you willing to retool existing affs to expand on what they do or are they going in as is.
BTW, re-looking at Shuyin's post, it appears he's adding new afflictions. I'd rather not do that. My read of Kaimanahi's proposal was 5 physical afflictions (I'd prefer 10-5 cut/5 blunt) with 3 levels which are tied to wounds. The hit effects (i.e., individual skills) would be either immediate (bleed, extra damage, stun) or an existing affliction (vomiting, etc.)--in other words, not new afflictions.
When you mean new afflictions, are you willing to retool existing affs to expand on what they do or are they going in as is.
There are 5 blunt ailments and 5 cutting ailments, corresponding to each body part. The ailments each have 3 levels which are cumulative, and based on the wound level of the limb. If it says that a cure has a delay, it means there is a delay before the Wound level on the limb is reduced, and that level's ailment is cured. Here is a table of the 5 cutting and blunt ailments. These are explained in the "Ailment Side Effects" table at the bottom of the page.
Blunt External Ailments (Mild, Heavy, Critical)
Head - Contusion, CollapsedThroat, FracturedSkull
Chest - Contusion, FractureChest, CollapsedLung
Gut - Contusion, Vomiting, BurstOrgans
Arms - Contusion, BrokenArm, DisabledLimb
Legs - Contusion, BrokenLeg, DisabledLimb
Cutting External Ailments (Mild, Heavy, Critical)
Head - Lacerated, FurrowBrow, Scalped
Chest - Lacerated, PiercedLung, SeveredSpine
Gut - Lacerated, OpenGut, Disembowel
Arms - Lacerated, DamagedNerve, SeveredNerve
Legs - Lacerated, DamagedNerve, PinLeg
In addition to these physical ailments that are dependant on wound level. Each Specialisation is also able to create a 1 off effect when reaching the wound level, or hitting a limb at a specific wound level. These are effects that are either not cured by a Salve, or are negated only by time, or some other action.
Below is a summary of each specialisation, its kill method, and a list of the skills in the specialisation.
Ailment Side Effects (Curable with new salve/reducing Wound state)
Lacerated - Cutting damage defence debuff (takes more damage from cutting sources) -- Adds together. Basically something to help make damage kills possible. (Instant cure)
DamagedNerve: If legs, sprawls and prevents standing. If arms, forces unwield and prevents refilling pipes. (delayed 4s cure)
SeveredNerve- Can't use are, bit both arms severed, can't cure. (delayed 4s cure)
OpenGut: Causes damage and sprawl every 3s if uncured. (instant cure)
FurrowBrow - blinded, and periodic blackout every 3s if uncured (instant cure)
Scalped - Stupidity + confusion + trophy
SeveredSpine: Prevents most actions like paralysis. (delayed 4s cure)
Contusion - Blunt Damage Defence Debuff (take more damage from blunt sources) - Adds together. Basically something to help make damage kills possible. (Instant cure)
BurstOrgans: Time delay to death (delayed 4s cure)
CollapsedLung: Can't smoke (instant cure)
BrokenArm: Can't hold items or use arm. (instant cure)
BrokenLeg: Sprawled, can't stand. (instant cure)
DisabledLimb: Prevents many actions that require the limb, such as standing, movement, and tumbling. When cured, the new limb is broken. If both arms are disabled, you cannot cure. (delayed 4s cure)
Effects (Not cured by cure system)
KnockDown - (Sprawled + balance loss)
SliceThigh - stop tumble or other delayed movement.
Ringing - lose balance (1s)
Shatter - blackout (1s)
Amputate - DisabledLimb + trophy
Winded - stun (1s)
Pinned - Writhe to escape, or Rend for burst damage.
Disrupted - Lose stance / parry
Burst - Extra Damage burst.
Secondary Effects (Pre-existing Ailments cured by other methods)
I tried to keep everything as close to the current specialisation as possible, taking into things mentioned in this forum. I also removed any references to bleeding, and instead replaced those with "increased damage"
I hope my idea about reducing DMP with the lowlevel contusions and lacerations make sense...
There should be 5 cut and 5 blunt physical affliction ailments (one for each body part) which would be tied to wounds. But there can be 3 tiered effects for each. These wound effects would be permanent so long as the wound level exists. Ice would cure the wounds down (and therefore remove the effects).
This would be separate from the specific skills in each spec that would give bleed, vomit, extra damage, etc.
In addition to these physical ailments that are dependant on wound level. Each Specialisation is also able to create a 1 off effect when reaching the wound level, or hitting a limb at a specific wound level. These are effects that are either not cured by a Salve, or are negated only by time, or some other action.
Below is a summary of each specialisation, its kill method, and a list of the skills in the specialisation.
I would really like to see this in the spreadsheet. It would be much easier to compare with what exists and what anyone else would put down. (Also, Roark would kill me if I sent him a design doc like this. He would want a list of all skills in order they should go in--including skills that won't change.)
There should be 5 cut and 5 blunt physical affliction ailments (one for each body part) which would be tied to wounds. But there can be 3 tiered effects for each. These wound effects would be permanent so long as the wound level exists. Ice would cure the wounds down (and therefore remove the effects).
This would be separate from the specific skills in each spec that would give bleed, vomit, extra damage, etc.
This interpretation seems to be different from how Kelly proposed it. Should we proceed under this assumption instead of hers?
In addition to these physical ailments that are dependant on wound level. Each Specialisation is also able to create a 1 off effect when reaching the wound level, or hitting a limb at a specific wound level. These are effects that are either not cured by a Salve, or are negated only by time, or some other action.
Below is a summary of each specialisation, its kill method, and a list of the skills in the specialisation.
I would really like to see this in the spreadsheet. It would be much easier to compare with what exists and what anyone else would put down. (Also, Roark would kill me if I sent him a design doc like this. He would want a list of all skills in order they should go in--including skills that won't change.)
Ok, I will try to do that. I had written most of it before the Google doc was up.
Comments
A few other miscellaneous thoughts. Relying on a disembowel/burst organs like affliction for a kill is not really viable as already mentioned.
Also, care needs to be taken in not just duplicating the same afflictions on two-handed weapons as one-handed weapons. The two-handed weapons not only need to be able to up wounds faster, but the actual afflictions need to be stronger (or the kill state easier). Otherwise, one-handed weapons have a huge advantage in that they get double the afflictions once they've both reached the same wound-level.
Getting rid of BurstOrgans would be nice. It's very rarely useful, and probably can just be cut.
Shuyin's list seems pretty workable, though I like the idea of having the head be the primary kill method for all specs. This keeps things simpler from a defender's pov, but also keeps Warriors synergizing in a group. I'm not really opposed to having each spec be different, though.
I like the way bleeding works currently, and echo that it would require a lot of changes to a lot of guilds to rework it.
I'm still having trouble trouble seeing what the skillsets will look like. I've created a Warrior Spec Google Worksheet that anyone can edit with tabs for each of the specs. I'm curious if anyone wants to use the Kaimanahi/Shuyin ideas to fill out the skills that will be replaced. Add suggestions to a separate column with your name as the column header (resize for easy reading). Obviously, we can't replace all of the skills that would be lost (though it'd be nice if we could!) but definitely we should aim to replace a majority (over half of those removed).
EDIT: To be clear, I'm having trouble seeing how the skillsets would look without them being extremely repetitive with each other.
I hope my idea about reducing DMP with the lowlevel contusions and lacerations make sense...
There seems to be a disconnect in our interpretation. Let me re-read
So there seems to be 2 distinct approaches to this:
1. Should externals be split into 10 blunt and 10 cut per Daganev
Or
2. Should externals be shared like with my idea. Then we'd have 9 new and 11 more to split amongst the 5 specs, as an example.
Basically 1 differentiates the specs at the external level by virtue of damage type while 2 differentiates at the wound level.
The first solution is simpler but the second makes the specs more diverse.
Any thoughts?
There should be 5 cut and 5 blunt physical affliction ailments (one for each body part) which would be tied to wounds. But there can be 3 tiered effects for each. These wound effects would be permanent so long as the wound level exists. Ice would cure the wounds down (and therefore remove the effects).
This would be separate from the specific skills in each spec that would give bleed, vomit, extra damage, etc.
Still doable, will need more retooling