I wish you would stop defecating all over poor Crow.
*poke changelog 360*
Xenthos... I love you, but stahp. It isn't nerf to Crow. It's a needed fix to skillflexing.
Yes, Crow sucks. Yes, pre-fix, the cord made it better. Yes, post-fix, Crow is back to its inherently crappy state.
However, this means you can fiddle with Crow without having to balance it against also having Nightkiss and PoisonExpert! GO FORTH AND EMPOWER OUR BROTHER CROW.
I thought the list was for overpowered defences? Crowform is near useless outside of Crow, you can't perch or swoop, you gain an entire +1 weight to int and a minor heal on kill when bashing, no really that's it.
Not entirely sure homework was done on that one.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Homework was definitely not done at all with that one.
And no, Kio, that argument holds no water at all at this point. We were not able to get it fixed pre-skillflex either. Skillflex was basically the fix, and now it is unfixed.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Looking over it, I really only have one major issue with Stag as it exists currently. Well, two. As strong as swiftstripes/lightning can be, I'd like to replace them with other facepaints. Then there's Ancestral Curse. It's just overly expensive as things are these days. I'm willing to listen to reasons why it's not, but... :P
The point of the changelog is that you are not supposed to have nightkiss/drawdown AND crow/stagform at the same time. If you can crow/stagform, flex to night/moon and nightkiss/drawdown while keeping stag/crowform at the same time, it kind of defeats the purpose of being unable to have nightkiss/drawdown while night/moon is dormant. While I agree that crowform does absolutely nothing for a warrior, you should still get to choose what you have available to you when skillflexing rather than farming both defenses at the same time.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
That's rather irrelevant to the discussion. This was the caveat added in the Furies decision.
" In the mean time, if there are specific defences which are too OP to remain on skillflexing, the Serenguard Envoy may message Iosai one (1) complete list and she will make sure they are cleared as part of this report."
Crowform is not too OP, the only reason it was added is because Stagform is (because passive celerity out of spec IS OP) and then was then either done on a false presumption that CF is as good as SF, which is a sign of not doing homework, or it's because of the fact that if SG lose SF, EG should lose CF for "balance" which is not what the list was intended for. As you said "Crowform does absolutely nothing for a warrior" by that definition, it's not OP and shouldn't have been listed.
Nightkiss definately was right to be up there, NK Crows and NK Trackers were silly strong.
Edit: Either way, Crow is now considered an individual spec, and the reasons for not buffing it previously was "because you can skillflex Nightkiss too" Well now you can't and it's vastly inferior to Stag, so buff Crow.
Also let's completely revamp tracking, do away with pits and make it a spec that actually has some personal offence and defencive capabilities. Because now because unless by some small miracle where every Knight agrees to not play the arms race of being pitmonkey, one or two poor buggers are going to have the unfun job of being primary focused wet paper bags, spending most of their time spamming disarm/lay aliases while everyone else actually gets to enjoy fighting.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
It's difficult to balance these shared guild skills. It is easier to adapt Night/Moon because both the wiccans and warriors have a similarly offensive, one-person, one-room style of fighting, whereas the druids maintain the meld and often adopt a support role, being removed from the main action and only taking on targets of opportunity. It's hard to marry that to the fighting style of the warrior and come out with things that are useful to both and fair in the hands of both.
Crow's issues in this sense have existed long before skillflex was even introduced, and these last few posts amount to the 'eee eee eee' that follows ripping off a bandaid.
I think Crow could stand to be improved in the sense of the shield, rather than the sword, if that makes sense. You won't, and shouldn't, get the same offensive goodness as taking Night, but there's room for a role in terms of both combat and role-play for the tank/support-warrior that could mesh well with the BT.
It's difficult to balance these shared guild skills. It is easier to adapt Night/Moon because both the wiccans and warriors have a similarly offensive, one-person, one-room style of fighting, whereas the druids maintain the meld and often adopt a support role, being removed from the main action and only taking on targets of opportunity. It's hard to marry that to the fighting style of the warrior and come out with things that are useful to both and fair in the hands of both.
Crow's issues in this sense have existed long before skillflex was even introduced, and these last few posts amount to the 'eee eee eee' that follows ripping off a bandaid.
I think Crow could stand to be improved in the sense of the shield, rather than the sword, if that makes sense. You won't, and shouldn't, get the same offensive goodness as taking Night, but there's room for a role in terms of both combat and role-play for the tank/support-warrior that could mesh well with the BT.
So yes, buff Crow, but, you know, reasonably.
There is absolutely zero way to "reasonably buff" Crow to be more tanky than Night, as a note. Shadowdance garb, shadowdance drink & Shadowdance nightkiss make Night the tankiest skillset in the game.
The only option is to make Crow better offensively, which is also tough given that Night does have decent offensive additions as well...
The only way you're going to improve Crow without skewing it out too much for Druids to focus on, is to look at improvements that Knights will benefit from, balance speed, weapons and wounding (I'd say cutting damage but Wyrdenwood) and then possibly look at some mitigation that would also be balanced for Druids without making them walking fortresses in their melds.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Oh. So what you meant was nerf Night. That's cool too.
Sure while we're at it let's bring down everything on that level of strength in the game, I'm sure we'll be better off without inqusition/trueheal/drawdown/full/most-things-monk/pyromeld/aeromeld/reality/ectoplasm/crucifixion/hexes/aslaran-and-mugwump-master-races etc. just so we don't skew things out of balance.
Crow is awful, buffing it in "just one way" means you're going to either still have it inferior to Night or you're going to make it stupidly powerful. I don't want it to be better, I want it to be competitive.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
It'd be lovely if it was competitive. The only way I've managed to ever
make it so was by adding the 24dmp to all from Nightkiss plus the
weaponaura; with that, Crow was still a bit weaker than its counterpart
but it was close enough to actually be viable as an option. The problem
is that you can't just slap 24dmp into the skillset without skewing off
Blacktalon (though putting in weaponaura would be fine, weaponaura are a
no-go now).
I find it extraordinarily unfortunate that the gap is this way, but basically Crow needs its own niche. There's no way for it to match defensively, so offensively is its only way to go.
It just can't be: 1) Critical hits, 2) Weapon auras, 3) Large DMP
And it must be unique.
This makes it a bit difficult to put something out there. I've been kicking around the idea of some kind of "rage" mechanic (bloodlust kind of thing), but while I think it could be cool, I'm just not sure what benefits it could actually provide that aren't already nixed from the get-go and that would actually be strong enough to make it competitive.
Obviously Crow Cloak needs to have a chance to cause an affliction (affliction cloud?) upon being hit. Xenthos, start a thread for ideas.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I'd love to see something regarding putrescent festering carrion infecting wounds, either doing more damage or making them harder to cu.. oh wait that's Deathweapon. Carry on.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Right. I look forward to seeing how your envoy tackles this totally new and surprising problem after today's spontaneous defecation storm. Carrion.
You mean the problem that's been attempted at least six times and never gone anywhere, because it is not deemed to be unique enough a solution?
Really, you were even in Glomdoring (and an envoy) for a few attempts. You know that it's been tried, you know how hard people have tried, so pretending otherwise is a wee bit silly.
Right. I look forward to seeing how your envoy tackles this totally new and surprising problem after today's spontaneous defecation storm. Carrion.
You mean the problem that's been attempted at least six times and never gone anywhere, because it is not deemed to be unique enough a solution?
Really, you were even in Glomdoring (and an envoy) for a few attempts. You know that it's been tried, you know how hard people have tried, so pretending otherwise is a wee bit silly.
At least there's a reason to try again now the old "This is balanced because Nightkiss/Skillflex is intended" reason no longer exists. Seriously a facelift to Crow and a revamp of Tracking are both opportunities here, might as well make the game somewhat fun and balanced out of this.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Right. I look forward to seeing how your envoy tackles this totally new and surprising problem after today's spontaneous defecation storm. Carrion.
You mean the problem that's been attempted at least six times and never gone anywhere, because it is not deemed to be unique enough a solution?
Really, you were even in Glomdoring (and an envoy) for a few attempts. You know that it's been tried, you know how hard people have tried, so pretending otherwise is a wee bit silly.
At least there's a reason to try again now the old "This is balanced because Nightkiss/Skillflex is intended" reason no longer exists. Seriously a facelift to Crow and a revamp of Tracking are both opportunities here, might as well make the game somewhat fun and balanced out of this.
Nobody's tried since skillflex went in, as skillflex actually did allow the two to be competitive with one another.
Pretty much all attempts were pre-skillflex.
(Basically, that reason was never trotted out because we didn't have a need to keep hammering the problem over and over- and now we're back to the old problem situation again with no solution in sight)
Edit: I'm going to edit and correct myself to say "doctoral cords" instead of "skillflex". Cords are what really enabled this to work.
I'm aware that it's a longstanding issue - and why. My first post in this little exchange was trying to be constructive feedback on your problem, suggesting a route you might take.
If the issue is flight - you guys have a travel skill that is begging for a buff in the same way the artisan trans is - especially considering how universal *bixes have become. If it's healing, well, you already have something that pushes you over max that you can work with to buff... and I was half-serious about the nerfs. I'd hardly be the first to suggest that drink might be too good and isn't the standard to balance around.
You must admit yourself that for as long as you've been envoy, six attempts does not seem like a huge percentage for what is now being presented as a truly woeful problem.
I'm aware that it's a longstanding issue - and why. My first post in this little exchange was trying to be constructive feedback on your problem, suggesting a route you might take.
If the issue is flight - you guys have a travel skill that is begging for a buff in the same way the artisan trans is - especially considering how universal *bixes have become. If it's healing, well, you already have something that pushes you over max that you can work with to buff... and I was half-serious about the nerfs. I'd hardly be the first to suggest that drink might be too good and isn't the standard to balance around.
You must admit yourself that for as long as you've been envoy, six attempts does not seem like a huge percentage for what is now being presented as a truly woeful problem.
No other skill has had as many attempts to largely overhaul it and make it competitive, so I'm not sure where you get your "huge percentage" ratio from. In addition, there was no point in trying (or much need) while skillflex was useable because... during that time (at least with a huge investment of credits) it was possible to make it work out all right. Any attempts to buff it would've been (rightly) denied. I really don't feel like I have to admit anything of the sort.
The issue is not so much utility (Crow has lots of utility), but more that it lacks something that actually provides it with real impact. Note that I didn't really include flight in my list (I consider that utility more than a make-or-break skill and Crow has its own things that are useful as a counter to Flight).
While we could try to buff the healing-- I have difficulty seeing anything passing for Druids (edit: Blacktalon) that rivals Drink (so it would at best be some watered-down alternative).
The scope of the report was to clear all defenses associated with a skill when switching out of it. It's not apparently an easy thing to do with the way things are, so the report comment by the Furies said they'll endeavour to keep this in mind for the overhaul and for the time being asked to triage which ones needed the most attention. My impression was that they need to be cleared individually now which makes this more time consuming work. I didn't want to make an overly long list for this reason, since I'm trying to be sensitive to the fact that there are a lot of projects underway and it was basically implied it would be implemented as asked in the long run.
I'm not going to touch on specific posts here since some seem very emotionally charged, however I will admit I didn't do a direct comparison of Crow and Stag form because I felt it was irrelevant -- they should both be cleared if the specific skillset they belong to is not active. I feel this should extend to all skillsets, and in time hopefully that will be the case.
Keep in mind, I'm not here to be the bad guy or spite anyone. In fact, the original report idea was not even mine, but something that arose in conversation. I'm not the only one who felt that this general usage of the cord needed to be fixed.
For those who felt they were nerfed, understand that not everyone in your guild can afford or will choose to buy a doctoral cord. If a skillset needs reworking, it should be properly reworked rather than patching problems in uninteded ways. If there's a problem, we should fix the problem, not just look to make it a little less bad.
Yes, envoying a skillset that has design flaws for an archetype is not an easy task, especially when it's a shared skillset. I sympathize with that, especially since I have also struggled with the same issue. Regardless, it was always an issue anyway, but you convinced yourself it wasn't because you were one of the few fortunate enough to have a way to make the situation better for yourself. Maybe another consequence of this change then was to help bring to light that particular perspective.
For
those who felt they were nerfed, understand that not everyone in your
guild can afford or will choose to buy a doctoral cord. If a skillset
needs reworking, it should be properly reworked rather than patching
problems in uninteded ways. If there's a problem, we should fix the
problem, not just look to make it a little less bad.
Yes,
envoying a skillset that has design flaws for an archetype is not an
easy task, especially when it's a shared skillset. I sympathize with
that, especially since I have also struggled with the same issue.
Regardless, it was always an issue anyway, but you convinced yourself it
wasn't because you were one of the few fortunate enough to have a way
to make the situation better for yourself. Maybe another consequence of
this change then was to help bring to light that particular perspective.
I don't even know what you're talking about here. Who convinced themselves it was "not an issue"? You know I've talked about how Crow compares to everything else forever. Nobody has ever said it wasn't a subpar skillset.
I feel like you haven't bothered to actually read any of the posts made here. They specifically say that attempts were made, and rejected. They also say that I feel it's extraordinarily unfortunate that this was the only way that was found to actually make them comparable, but that does not change the fact that this was the only way. Attempts to do it otherwise have universally failed
Essentially: It is preferable to have some way of making a skillset viable (even if it costs thousands of credits) instead of no way at all. As the last is now what we appear to be back at... you bet there's some frustration.
Comments
Not entirely sure homework was done on that one.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
And no, Kio, that argument holds no water at all at this point. We were not able to get it fixed pre-skillflex either. Skillflex was basically the fix, and now it is unfixed.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Hell, passive Celerity alone would be beautiful.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
" In the mean time, if there are specific defences which are too OP to remain on skillflexing, the Serenguard Envoy may message Iosai one (1) complete list and she will make sure they are cleared as part of this report."
Crowform is not too OP, the only reason it was added is because Stagform is (because passive celerity out of spec IS OP) and then was then either done on a false presumption that CF is as good as SF, which is a sign of not doing homework, or it's because of the fact that if SG lose SF, EG should lose CF for "balance" which is not what the list was intended for. As you said "Crowform does absolutely nothing for a warrior" by that definition, it's not OP and shouldn't have been listed.
Nightkiss definately was right to be up there, NK Crows and NK Trackers were silly strong.
Edit: Either way, Crow is now considered an individual spec, and the reasons for not buffing it previously was "because you can skillflex Nightkiss too" Well now you can't and it's vastly inferior to Stag, so buff Crow.
Also let's completely revamp tracking, do away with pits and make it a spec that actually has some personal offence and defencive capabilities. Because now because unless by some small miracle where every Knight agrees to not play the arms race of being pitmonkey, one or two poor buggers are going to have the unfun job of being primary focused wet paper bags, spending most of their time spamming disarm/lay aliases while everyone else actually gets to enjoy fighting.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Crow's issues in this sense have existed long before skillflex was even introduced, and these last few posts amount to the 'eee eee eee' that follows ripping off a bandaid.
I think Crow could stand to be improved in the sense of the shield, rather than the sword, if that makes sense. You won't, and shouldn't, get the same offensive goodness as taking Night, but there's room for a role in terms of both combat and role-play for the tank/support-warrior that could mesh well with the BT.
So yes, buff Crow, but, you know, reasonably.
Vive l'apostrophe!
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
The only option is to make Crow better offensively, which is also tough given that Night does have decent offensive additions as well...
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Vive l'apostrophe!
Doesn't change that Crow still sucks in comparison to Stag, Moon, and all the other warrior specs.
Crow is awful, buffing it in "just one way" means you're going to either still have it inferior to Night or you're going to make it stupidly powerful. I don't want it to be better, I want it to be competitive.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I find it extraordinarily unfortunate that the gap is this way, but basically Crow needs its own niche. There's no way for it to match defensively, so offensively is its only way to go.
It just can't be:
1) Critical hits,
2) Weapon auras,
3) Large DMP
And it must be unique.
This makes it a bit difficult to put something out there. I've been kicking around the idea of some kind of "rage" mechanic (bloodlust kind of thing), but while I think it could be cool, I'm just not sure what benefits it could actually provide that aren't already nixed from the get-go and that would actually be strong enough to make it competitive.
Vive l'apostrophe!
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Really, you were even in Glomdoring (and an envoy) for a few attempts. You know that it's been tried, you know how hard people have tried, so pretending otherwise is a wee bit silly.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Pretty much all attempts were pre-skillflex.
(Basically, that reason was never trotted out because we didn't have a need to keep hammering the problem over and over- and now we're back to the old problem situation again with no solution in sight)
Edit: I'm going to edit and correct myself to say "doctoral cords" instead of "skillflex". Cords are what really enabled this to work.
If the issue is flight - you guys have a travel skill that is begging for a buff in the same way the artisan trans is - especially considering how universal *bixes have become. If it's healing, well, you already have something that pushes you over max that you can work with to buff... and I was half-serious about the nerfs. I'd hardly be the first to suggest that drink might be too good and isn't the standard to balance around.
You must admit yourself that for as long as you've been envoy, six attempts does not seem like a huge percentage for what is now being presented as a truly woeful problem.
Vive l'apostrophe!
The issue is not so much utility (Crow has lots of utility), but more that it lacks something that actually provides it with real impact. Note that I didn't really include flight in my list (I consider that utility more than a make-or-break skill and Crow has its own things that are useful as a counter to Flight).
While we could try to buff the healing-- I have difficulty seeing anything passing for Druids (edit: Blacktalon) that rivals Drink (so it would at best be some watered-down alternative).
I feel like you haven't bothered to actually read any of the posts made here. They specifically say that attempts were made, and rejected. They also say that I feel it's extraordinarily unfortunate that this was the only way that was found to actually make them comparable, but that does not change the fact that this was the only way. Attempts to do it otherwise have universally failed
Essentially: It is preferable to have some way of making a skillset viable (even if it costs thousands of credits) instead of no way at all. As the last is now what we appear to be back at... you bet there's some frustration.