The sum of my concerns isn't about aquachemantics at this point, but whatever the Hartstone and Blacktalon are going to get. Both are responsible for practical forestry, and the abilities they rely on for that are almost exclusively in druidry.
Saplings and mulching: will we get these abilities? If it's a matter of balance, maybe with the stipulation that they're ineffective in another druid's demesne? This would keep the maintenance aspect but minimize the combat effect.
Totems, runes and bonding: bonding is in stag and crow, so that's not a big concern. Totem carving and the ability to tune and affix runes is. I really can't see a reason why the new skill wouldn't include those..
And finally, the nature talisman: will it still be a sickle, go back to the wooden talisman, or maybe be something new entirely?
I'm being totally patient, by the way. Just pre-emptively bringing these up.
My predictions: Treechemancers will not get mulch and will have to use axes when they want trees chopped. They will not get totem carving/rune affixing. Much like Stag/Crow warriors, they will have to get someone with druidry to do it for them on any totem they want to bond. The druid's Chalice-equivalent will function as a talisman for the purposes of using Nature skills, just like a Cudgel would. Their talisman may or may not turn into their amphora equivalent.
First, mulch has rp considerations. Treechemancers wouldn't be touching moonharts at the least without mulch.
I'm not seeing any impact on statues for cities so carving should transfer as well as runes.
the implement should change with gaining the spec, probably still a sickle though.
X gusts for X mists, think of a fair number. If you want gust to target all mists, make it a high number, if you want to get rid of individual mists, the number can be lower.
X gusts for X mists, think of a fair number. If you want gust to target all mists, make it a high number, if you want to get rid of individual mists, the number can be lower.
I actually like the sound of that, a lot. But wouldn't it be better to wait until all of the skillsets are released, and give one blanket effect to ward off all of the different passives? Rather than gust working for Aquachemantics, something else for Geowhatevers, then the druids, etc etc. While gust fits great for the Aquas thematically, it may not really work for the others.
Crumkane, Lord of Epicurean Delights says, "WAS IT INDEED ON FIRE, ERITHEYL."
-
With a deep reverb, Contemptible Sutekh says, "CEASE YOUR INFERNAL ENERGY, ERITHEYL."
FYI, I am strongly leaning against having direct counters to mists. I haven't seen any persuasive arguments other than either (1) other passives have counters therefore this should too, or (2) some wild speculation on how Aquachem combat works. Neither makes for a very compelling reason. Frankly, I think a stronger argument can be made that Aquachem may need to be buffed because it's a bit weak but let's not be premature and withhold judgment until we get more feedback!
From helping Neos test things and review his report at the moment, I saw plenty of things about the 1v1 aspect. The mists are annoying. They're also minor. Pellucid mist actually didn't drain ego faster than I could regenerate it. Now, this is under consideration that I was a fully buffed demigod. But I did not have performance on, so no ego regeneration there.
Recklessness/Vapors/Faeriefire are all supplementary afflictions. None of them are going to kill you on their own. Yes, Vapors is annoying. Recklessness is easily cured. The mists are quite weak, and mostly apply to potent effects in adjuvants...of which only Aquotixism is useful solo. Percolation, Depuration, and Dehydration had negligible effects upon me for 5p. Aquotixism was handy, doing 52% of my health (some 3.3k) for the full 10p, with no afflictions. With 5 afflictions, it dropped me to about 10%. Considering the stun, that would have probably been enough to kill me.
The raw damage attacks of pointing the chalice seemed to do less to me than staves did in the past, even the divinus. I think my lightningbugs did more overall damage.
I don't see any particular reason to need a counter to mists. They're used up in the actives, their potency isn't that high, and you can always use a force to change the focus.
The thing I really noticed is that Aquotixism's damage is based heavily on 5 afflictions, 1 of which is given by mists, 3 of which by sheens, 1 of which by other sources. I wonder about the ability to use it as a kill method solo when you have to hope they hit you and get afflicted by sheens before you can pull it off. Particularly with the time delay between starting and using the adjuvant, it seems very unlikely that any combatant with any skill would be caught flatfooted and afflicted.
One thing I didn't look into: Can you do things between starting the adjuvant and it hitting? If so, perhaps there's some ability to stack. But it still would require a spot of luck/timing.
Sheens. They seem to have a fairly low proc rate, but can all fire at once. They also seem to hit only on damage attacks. So...demesne ticks will cause a trigger, cudgel will cause a trigger. Presumably, fae like banshee, would cause a trigger. However, things like web, thornlash, and other skills I tested did not fire it off at all. This may need adjustment.
Defenses seem fine. I don't mind the heavy outlay cost to raise them for 50 months. I would like to see an ability to create those (and raise mists) before the decay/end however, to allow people to keep them up without worrying about constant decay.
All in all, I like the concepts. I'm curious to see how it'll work as people start using their tertiaries and secondaries with it. (In particular, people need to be creative! I heard a lot of 'FaerieFire is useless, we don't cause any of those afflictions!) from people. Ok. Web under vapors. Phantom Walls. You have things, use 'em!) But Aquachemantics itself seems a bit on the weak side at present, now that the bleeding is fixed, and Aquoixitism has been brought down a little. I'm concerned about the ability to stick the afflictions needed to pull off the kill, when solo.
Group combat... Adjuvants are going to be deadly. I would like to see some method by which they could be interrupted or mitigated. Or at least foreshadowed, much like how meteor has the cast, a middle, and a hit message. That way you can prepare to shield yourself!
From helping Neos test things and review his report at the moment, I saw plenty of things about the 1v1 aspect. The mists are annoying. They're also minor. Pellucid mist actually didn't drain ego faster than I could regenerate it. Now, this is under consideration that I was a fully buffed demigod. But I did not have performance on, so no ego regeneration there.
Recklessness/Vapors/Faeriefire are all supplementary afflictions. None of them are going to kill you on their own. Yes, Vapors is annoying. Recklessness is easily cured. The mists are quite weak, and mostly apply to potent effects in adjuvants...of which only Aquotixism is useful solo. Percolation, Depuration, and Dehydration had negligible effects upon me for 5p. Aquotixism was handy, doing 52% of my health (some 3.3k) for the full 10p, with no afflictions. With 5 afflictions, it dropped me to about 10%. Considering the stun, that would have probably been enough to kill me.
The raw damage attacks of pointing the chalice seemed to do less to me than staves did in the past, even the divinus. I think my lightningbugs did more overall damage.
I don't see any particular reason to need a counter to mists. They're used up in the actives, their potency isn't that high, and you can always use a force to change the focus.
The thing I really noticed is that Aquotixism's damage is based heavily on 5 afflictions, 1 of which is given by mists, 3 of which by sheens, 1 of which by other sources. I wonder about the ability to use it as a kill method solo when you have to hope they hit you and get afflicted by sheens before you can pull it off. Particularly with the time delay between starting and using the adjuvant, it seems very unlikely that any combatant with any skill would be caught flatfooted and afflicted.
One thing I didn't look into: Can you do things between starting the adjuvant and it hitting? If so, perhaps there's some ability to stack. But it still would require a spot of luck/timing.
Sheens. They seem to have a fairly low proc rate, but can all fire at once. They also seem to hit only on damage attacks. So...demesne ticks will cause a trigger, cudgel will cause a trigger. Presumably, fae like banshee, would cause a trigger. However, things like web, thornlash, and other skills I tested did not fire it off at all. This may need adjustment.
Defenses seem fine. I don't mind the heavy outlay cost to raise them for 50 months. I would like to see an ability to create those (and raise mists) before the decay/end however, to allow people to keep them up without worrying about constant decay.
All in all, I like the concepts. I'm curious to see how it'll work as people start using their tertiaries and secondaries with it. (In particular, people need to be creative! I heard a lot of 'FaerieFire is useless, we don't cause any of those afflictions!) from people. Ok. Web under vapors. Phantom Walls. You have things, use 'em!) But Aquachemantics itself seems a bit on the weak side at present, now that the bleeding is fixed, and Aquoixitism has been brought down a little. I'm concerned about the ability to stick the afflictions needed to pull off the kill, when solo.
Group combat... Adjuvants are going to be deadly. I would like to see some method by which they could be interrupted or mitigated. Or at least foreshadowed, much like how meteor has the cast, a middle, and a hit message. That way you can prepare to shield yourself!
From helping Neos test things and review his report at the moment, I saw plenty of things about the 1v1 aspect. The mists are annoying. They're also minor. Pellucid mist actually didn't drain ego faster than I could regenerate it. Now, this is under consideration that I was a fully buffed demigod. But I did not have performance on, so no ego regeneration there.
Recklessness/Vapors/Faeriefire are all supplementary afflictions. None of them are going to kill you on their own. Yes, Vapors is annoying. Recklessness is easily cured. The mists are quite weak, and mostly apply to potent effects in adjuvants...of which only Aquotixism is useful solo. Percolation, Depuration, and Dehydration had negligible effects upon me for 5p. Aquotixism was handy, doing 52% of my health (some 3.3k) for the full 10p, with no afflictions. With 5 afflictions, it dropped me to about 10%. Considering the stun, that would have probably been enough to kill me.
The raw damage attacks of pointing the chalice seemed to do less to me than staves did in the past, even the divinus. I think my lightningbugs did more overall damage.
I don't see any particular reason to need a counter to mists. They're used up in the actives, their potency isn't that high, and you can always use a force to change the focus.
The thing I really noticed is that Aquotixism's damage is based heavily on 5 afflictions, 1 of which is given by mists, 3 of which by sheens, 1 of which by other sources. I wonder about the ability to use it as a kill method solo when you have to hope they hit you and get afflicted by sheens before you can pull it off. Particularly with the time delay between starting and using the adjuvant, it seems very unlikely that any combatant with any skill would be caught flatfooted and afflicted.
One thing I didn't look into: Can you do things between starting the adjuvant and it hitting? If so, perhaps there's some ability to stack. But it still would require a spot of luck/timing.
Sheens. They seem to have a fairly low proc rate, but can all fire at once. They also seem to hit only on damage attacks. So...demesne ticks will cause a trigger, cudgel will cause a trigger. Presumably, fae like banshee, would cause a trigger. However, things like web, thornlash, and other skills I tested did not fire it off at all. This may need adjustment.
Defenses seem fine. I don't mind the heavy outlay cost to raise them for 50 months. I would like to see an ability to create those (and raise mists) before the decay/end however, to allow people to keep them up without worrying about constant decay.
All in all, I like the concepts. I'm curious to see how it'll work as people start using their tertiaries and secondaries with it. (In particular, people need to be creative! I heard a lot of 'FaerieFire is useless, we don't cause any of those afflictions!) from people. Ok. Web under vapors. Phantom Walls. You have things, use 'em!) But Aquachemantics itself seems a bit on the weak side at present, now that the bleeding is fixed, and Aquoixitism has been brought down a little. I'm concerned about the ability to stick the afflictions needed to pull off the kill, when solo.
Group combat... Adjuvants are going to be deadly. I would like to see some method by which they could be interrupted or mitigated. Or at least foreshadowed, much like how meteor has the cast, a middle, and a hit message. That way you can prepare to shield yourself!
Thanks for taking the time to help review the new skillset and posting your feedback here! You bring up a lot of my concerns and we seem to be on the same page regarding countering mists. Can't wait to get the expedited report from Neos!
I sent my feedback to Neos already! The core of it was that the skill seems weak for runists and dreamweavers, strong for TK (and to a lesser extent, TP), and that it was lacking in meaningful actives or any hindering.
My big concern with the mists being unstoppable is mainly in relation to classes that need to rely on maintaining a lock. Not being able to disable the passive blackout on top of the possibility of passive lover's curse even when the target is totally 100% locked down can be really painful, especially if you're utilizing a tertiary that needs to be watching for a few key actions on the part of the locked party to perpetuate the lock.
Passive lover's curse is only a sheen though, so it's when you hit them!
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
The unfortunate news is that we have no top tier aquas out and about, so balancing is going to be more difficult than normal. Faerie fire, passively, means you will always see your target move, writhe, everything. It's a hard counter to all forms of shroud. That's huge. Dunno why they would think otherwise.
We need to remember that Psionics, by itself, is very very strong. It can stand alone without a primary and still compete at the highest levels of PK (new psyvamp is a little iffy, but otherwise the rest is solid). Telepathy in particular has a lot of nuances and can be very powerful to stack the required afflictions, TK is just a time bomb. If these new skillsets seem less than spectacular (not sure how "week" passive unstoppable blackout with TK is, that sounds absolutely brutal), well maybe they should be. Maybe softer primaries are what we need to balance out the powerhouse tertiaries of psionics, because all attempts to bring psionics in line have been fairly unsuccessful in broad terms.
The skillset was released under the guise of "1v1" but it seems to actually be more group oriented. Links and ranged, timed, grouped adjuvants. It's terror/rage Covens, only multiple times better. I'd have to see it in action, but mages seem to be really dominating the group combat scene...even more so than before.
Well, if you guys insist on leaving mists alone, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Given how the current draft of the report contains more buffs to mists, I'm sure it will be reviewed again though.
With that said, I agree that aquatoxicism or whatever is an unreasonable finisher given the affliction requirement. Cavalier skewer functions similarly and even that one is already fairly difficult to pull off. The only aff-based finisher that's currently effective is Tahtetso heartburst and that's more because it's a monk than anything else.
Rough summary: Leave mists/sheens for envoy cycle. Adjuvants bad in 1:1, consider targetted versions with different effect to group to help cover lack of hinders. Linked aquoxitism to drain power from each aqua in the fellowship, to stop two aqoxitisms wiping everyone out.
Passive lover's curse is only a sheen though, so it's when you hit them!
Yep! Hence 'possibility of'. It's a percentile chance, not a recurring automatic passive!
I think that Neos was looking at reworking the Adjuvants entirely, as they all do essentially the same, lame thing (except for in lawlgroup situations).
With a few exceptions, this seems great for groups though. Group combat is about focusfiring down a single opponent anyways.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I suppose the question is does aquatoxicism really need to be a finisher?
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Why? If you want to include a nerf to psionics finishers within the report, sure, but you can't look at aquachemantics in a void, as if it is a stand alone primary.
Skills exist that cost 10 power and aren't "finishers."
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
You can aways reduce the cost. Considering it can't be stacked by multiple aquas for fillin style instaganks.
I'm so confused. I hope none of these opinions are based on Aquachemantics alone, because that's completely useless.
2
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
That's kind of my concern too. The comments about aquachemantics seem to be just about aquachemantics. Not how it meshes or functions with psionics. There's even comment from Hiriako is curious to see how it'll function when people "start using their tertiaries."
It seems like this report is based on just bashing people with aquachemantics.
That's kind of my concern too. The comments about aquachemantics seem to be just about aquachemantics. Not how it meshes or functions with psionics. There's even comment from Hiriako is curious to see how it'll function when people "start using their tertiaries."
It seems like this report is based on just bashing people with aquachemantics.
I'm pretty sure Estarra's said (to you specifically even) that she would be willing to see some review on Psionics done to bring it in line, as well, on the Aquachem report.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited December 2012
Which I understand and am happy for! I just don't know how to appraoch it. Are we bringing aquachemantics up and toning psionics down and balancing somewhere in the middle? That's a really tall order, and could end up being a big report.
I guess I am a little confused as to what the expectations are for aquachemantics. It's kind of a odd assortment of a super useful passive and a jumble of odds and ends for 1v1, and some really exceptional group and ranged potential.
I do have concerns when it comes to usage with tertiaries. Primarily in regards to TK/TP. I don't see it being too terribly useful for Dreamweaving, and only somewhat handy for Runes. But those things do leave surprises from time to time. Runes under a blackout could potentially be handy, particularly shooting for DP.
But TP/TK with this set are my main concern, and even then, I don't think it'd be as bad as fighting a psionicist in a meld, aside from the synergy with TP that this possesses.
I agree with Hiriako above. I can't think of any way to make Aquachem work with Dreamweaving. DeathProphesy under blackout is the only thing I see working for Runes. Synergy with TP is obvious, and TK is good enough on its own that you could honestly get by with non-spec'd elementalism. Anything Aquachemantics does on top of that is just a bonus.
Other concerns that have not been brought up as far as I know: -Phantasms has Terrain, StolenSight, Stalker, Mirage, PhantomSphere and Phantasmagoria, all of which either do not function or do not do anything worth caring about outside of a demense. Aquachemantics doesn't give you a demense, so you can't really use these skills. -Runes and Dreamweaving both have imbed, which doesn't do anything outside of a demense. Dreamweaving also has Sleepmist which has the same problem, and I'm not 100% sure that StaffSling works with Chalices.
Comments
Treechemancers will not get mulch and will have to use axes when they want trees chopped.
They will not get totem carving/rune affixing. Much like Stag/Crow warriors, they will have to get someone with druidry to do it for them on any totem they want to bond.
The druid's Chalice-equivalent will function as a talisman for the purposes of using Nature skills, just like a Cudgel would. Their talisman may or may not turn into their amphora equivalent.
First, mulch has rp considerations. Treechemancers wouldn't be touching moonharts at the least without mulch.
I'm not seeing any impact on statues for cities so carving should transfer as well as runes.
the implement should change with gaining the spec, probably still a sickle though.
-
Recklessness/Vapors/Faeriefire are all supplementary afflictions. None of them are going to kill you on their own. Yes, Vapors is annoying. Recklessness is easily cured. The mists are quite weak, and mostly apply to potent effects in adjuvants...of which only Aquotixism is useful solo. Percolation, Depuration, and Dehydration had negligible effects upon me for 5p. Aquotixism was handy, doing 52% of my health (some 3.3k) for the full 10p, with no afflictions. With 5 afflictions, it dropped me to about 10%. Considering the stun, that would have probably been enough to kill me.
The raw damage attacks of pointing the chalice seemed to do less to me than staves did in the past, even the divinus. I think my lightningbugs did more overall damage.
I don't see any particular reason to need a counter to mists. They're used up in the actives, their potency isn't that high, and you can always use a force to change the focus.
The thing I really noticed is that Aquotixism's damage is based heavily on 5 afflictions, 1 of which is given by mists, 3 of which by sheens, 1 of which by other sources. I wonder about the ability to use it as a kill method solo when you have to hope they hit you and get afflicted by sheens before you can pull it off. Particularly with the time delay between starting and using the adjuvant, it seems very unlikely that any combatant with any skill would be caught flatfooted and afflicted.
One thing I didn't look into: Can you do things between starting the adjuvant and it hitting? If so, perhaps there's some ability to stack. But it still would require a spot of luck/timing.
Sheens. They seem to have a fairly low proc rate, but can all fire at once. They also seem to hit only on damage attacks. So...demesne ticks will cause a trigger, cudgel will cause a trigger. Presumably, fae like banshee, would cause a trigger. However, things like web, thornlash, and other skills I tested did not fire it off at all. This may need adjustment.
Defenses seem fine. I don't mind the heavy outlay cost to raise them for 50 months. I would like to see an ability to create those (and raise mists) before the decay/end however, to allow people to keep them up without worrying about constant decay.
All in all, I like the concepts. I'm curious to see how it'll work as people start using their tertiaries and secondaries with it. (In particular, people need to be creative! I heard a lot of 'FaerieFire is useless, we don't cause any of those afflictions!) from people. Ok. Web under vapors. Phantom Walls. You have things, use 'em!) But Aquachemantics itself seems a bit on the weak side at present, now that the bleeding is fixed, and Aquoixitism has been brought down a little. I'm concerned about the ability to stick the afflictions needed to pull off the kill, when solo.
Group combat... Adjuvants are going to be deadly. I would like to see some method by which they could be interrupted or mitigated. Or at least foreshadowed, much like how meteor has the cast, a middle, and a hit message. That way you can prepare to shield yourself!
I have no patience.
Right. It's no true gate!
Thanks for taking the time to help review the new skillset and posting your feedback here! You bring up a lot of my concerns and we seem to be on the same page regarding countering mists. Can't wait to get the expedited report from Neos!
The unfortunate news is that we have no top tier aquas out and about, so balancing is going to be more difficult than normal. Faerie fire, passively, means you will always see your target move, writhe, everything. It's a hard counter to all forms of shroud. That's huge. Dunno why they would think otherwise.
We need to remember that Psionics, by itself, is very very strong. It can stand alone without a primary and still compete at the highest levels of PK (new psyvamp is a little iffy, but otherwise the rest is solid). Telepathy in particular has a lot of nuances and can be very powerful to stack the required afflictions, TK is just a time bomb. If these new skillsets seem less than spectacular (not sure how "week" passive unstoppable blackout with TK is, that sounds absolutely brutal), well maybe they should be. Maybe softer primaries are what we need to balance out the powerhouse tertiaries of psionics, because all attempts to bring psionics in line have been fairly unsuccessful in broad terms.
The skillset was released under the guise of "1v1" but it seems to actually be more group oriented. Links and ranged, timed, grouped adjuvants. It's terror/rage Covens, only multiple times better. I'd have to see it in action, but mages seem to be really dominating the group combat scene...even more so than before.
Rough summary: Leave mists/sheens for envoy cycle. Adjuvants bad in 1:1, consider targetted versions with different effect to group to help cover lack of hinders. Linked aquoxitism to drain power from each aqua in the fellowship, to stop two aqoxitisms wiping everyone out.
I suppose the question is does aquatoxicism really need to be a finisher?
Signature!
Why? If you want to include a nerf to psionics finishers within the report, sure, but you can't look at aquachemantics in a void, as if it is a stand alone primary.
Skills exist that cost 10 power and aren't "finishers."
You can aways reduce the cost. Considering it can't be stacked by multiple aquas for fillin style instaganks.
That's kind of my concern too. The comments about aquachemantics seem to be just about aquachemantics. Not how it meshes or functions with psionics. There's even comment from Hiriako is curious to see how it'll function when people "start using their tertiaries."
It seems like this report is based on just bashing people with aquachemantics.
Which I understand and am happy for! I just don't know how to appraoch it. Are we bringing aquachemantics up and toning psionics down and balancing somewhere in the middle? That's a really tall order, and could end up being a big report.
I guess I am a little confused as to what the expectations are for aquachemantics. It's kind of a odd assortment of a super useful passive and a jumble of odds and ends for 1v1, and some really exceptional group and ranged potential.
Other concerns that have not been brought up as far as I know:
-Phantasms has Terrain, StolenSight, Stalker, Mirage, PhantomSphere and Phantasmagoria, all of which either do not function or do not do anything worth caring about outside of a demense. Aquachemantics doesn't give you a demense, so you can't really use these skills.
-Runes and Dreamweaving both have imbed, which doesn't do anything outside of a demense. Dreamweaving also has Sleepmist which has the same problem, and I'm not 100% sure that StaffSling works with Chalices.
Sleepmist works outside demesnes. Just don't cast it with the [demesne] modifier.