As a note to your large post, Eventru: it is indeed possible to end demesne effects in a room (all of them), though it does require having a melder of your own to break it and end those effects.
So there is at least a little difference between the two styles, even beyond protection scrolls- and protection scrolls *are* useful in group combat while there is no similar mechanic for these.
Now, none of that is to say that I think aquachemantics is balanced, OP, UP, or just broken; simply a response to the point made. Almost all Lusternian combat is group combat and "we need a mage / druid to break the demesne" is a common refrain.
I'm sure it is, however I'm more concerned about 1v1 (where things can more reasonably reach a point of balance) versus group combat. Like I said, for most people, it's not possible to altogether end demesne effects. And like I said, protection scrolls are useful in group combat, however they aren't very useful in 1v1, which is what aquachems are oriented for. If mists hit all your enemies in the room, we'd be talking about something else, however we aren't.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
As a note to your large post, Eventru: it is indeed possible to end demesne effects in a room (all of them), though it does require having a melder of your own to break it and end those effects. So there is at least a little difference between the two styles, even beyond protection scrolls- and protection scrolls *are* useful in group combat while there is no similar mechanic for these. Now, none of that is to say that I think aquachemantics is balanced, OP, UP, or just broken; simply a response to the point made. Almost all Lusternian combat is group combat and "we need a mage / druid to break the demesne" is a common refrain.
I'm sure it is, however I'm more concerned about 1v1 (where things can more reasonably reach a point of balance) versus group combat. Like I said, for most people, it's not possible to altogether end demesne effects. And like I said, protection scrolls are useful in group combat, however they aren't very useful in 1v1, which is what aquachems are oriented for. If mists hit all your enemies in the room, we'd be talking about something else, however we aren't.
Protection is useless 1v1 but love potion is AMAZINGLY POWERFUL 1v1 as a counter, in a way it isn't in a group fight. So, that argument (Eventru's) doesn't really hold much water.
Protection is useless 1v1 but love potion is AMAZINGLY POWERFUL 1v1 as a counter, in a way it isn't in a group fight. So, that argument (Eventru's) doesn't really hold much water.
Maybe love potion should stop mists from hitting, maybe not. That's more of a question as to lust's design (should it stop all offense?) than Aquachemantics to me.
I was more speaking to the protection scroll/tinker enchantment/ability to kill sheens, mists and globes style arguments, ie things directly designed/intended to hinder mists, versus something that simply hinders all offensive acts.
Theorycrafting within the first week of a new release is pretty much the only thing that can be done. If a combatant claims they've fought enough aquachemantics at this point to give solid envoy-type ideas on how to change it so it's fully balanced, 90% of the time you can write that person off as someone who's giving uninformed opinion.
However, considering the predictions of players instead of just saying "that's only theorycrafting, go fight some more and come back!" does help foster discussion as well as choices for solutions when actual data does come in. It's reasonable to expect changes or tweaks to be only made on the back of clear proof, but it's also just as reasonable to pay attention to preliminary analysis and look out for possible problems that are pre-identified. I hope I didn't break any rules putting forth my opinions and expecting not to be brushed off, because I have no intention of not doing so, now or in the future.
Thanks for all the feedback! We'll probably be doing an accelerated review of Aquachemantics--because we want to get the rest out!
My preference regarding the passive effects is that they should not be easily counterable and I would like to see balance around that fact. I will note that the protection scrolls did not exist for a very long time. Mage demesne effects were meant to wear you down and not be easily avoided. The reason protection scrolls exist (for those who weren't around) is because of the many complaints of traveling through demesnes and getting worn down by the passive spells, especially those spells that broke apart groups. Thus, we gave mages a very easy way to take off the protection scrolls when you were in the same room with mages, i.e., they could easily remove the protection. In group combat, of course, it may be harder for a mage to take off multiple protection scrolls but that would never be an issue for a chemantic (because they can't target multiple people).
So, anyway, I did have a concern that the tics of the mists were too fast (but was convinced otherwise) but that's something we can certainly look at. I agree the blackouts with TK should be looked at so we could combine a look at psionics along with our accelerated review of aquachemantics.
3
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited December 2012
I will just say that love potion still affects demesnes. I think the closest thing to mists is Researcher gems, and those were unblockable until enough of an issue was raised that now you can violet them away.
Even the slower, smaller impact passives such as fae are still counterable with disloyalty and murdering them. I'm not sure what to do here. Do you want mists to be brought down to the levels of fae in terms of how beneficial they are so that they may remain unblockable and remain reasonable? I'm not saying if that's a good or bad idea (I have suspicions) but since I've not fought the new skillset I can't really say. I'm just trying to see where the comparisons should be made so we can adjust and assess accordingly.
Generally speaking, I would think effects with bigger impacts need to be counterable, where effects with smaller impace should be more difficult to avoid. So I'm thinking mists should be low impact skills?
edit: 9 second tic is pretty darn fast. Faster than demesnes and fae and bard songs. If it's going to be AND unblockable, I really think the impact of the passives should be low. Very low.
My preference regarding the passive effects is that they should not be easily counterable and I would like to see balance around that fact. I will note that the protection scrolls did not exist for a very long time. Mage demesne effects were meant to wear you down and not be easily avoided. The reason protection scrolls exist (for those who weren't around) is because of the many complaints of traveling through demesnes and getting worn down by the passive spells, especially those spells that broke apart groups. Thus, we gave mages a very easy way to take off the protection scrolls when you were in the same room with mages, i.e., they could easily remove the protection. In group combat, of course, it may be harder for a mage to take off multiple protection scrolls but that would never be an issue for a chemantic (because they can't target multiple people).
Now you can't be hit from a distance by demesne effects... can we get rid of protection scrolls? The problem that it was the solution to no longer exists!
Yeah, 9 seconds is fast.
1
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
And can we take a look at all this bleeding? Why are Aquamancers suddenly a bleeding guild? I don't get it, 500-700 up to 2000 in a single attack to all enemies? That's crazy! Glomdoring can't even put out those numbers and we're designed around bleeding and mana drains.
And can we take a look at all this bleeding? Why are Aquamancers suddenly a bleeding guild? I don't get it, 500-700 up to 2000 in a single attack to all enemies? That's crazy! Glomdoring can't even put out those numbers and we're designed around bleeding and mana drains.
While I won't really be posting any long in-depth post, do know that the bleeding comes at a cost of at minimum half the passive offense and 5-10 power. So it's not a constant output. Though I'm not saying it doesn't need to be looked at.
Which effect gives bleeding? It wasn't in the design so could be a bug or just a minor side effect of one of the damage types.
Let's not try to make them like fae or like demesnes or like anything else. The mists stand on their own and should be balanced based on the reality of what they do which is unlike fae or demesnes or institute gems. You only get four. They are the base offense of chemantics. They should be powerful and hard to avoid.
Anyway, I'm not adverse to love potion avoiding mists. Also not adverse to changing the tic time--suggestions?
Okay by his is probably not the best idea and not likely to go ahead even if other people did like it but just throwing it out there. What if some skill combinations within a guild were disallowed. I don't really know enough about the balance to say if its needed, but I think it would be interesting if a spec was designed such that it can't be taken with skillX which guildY would normally get and can be balanced such that its fine with the other skill choices.
Again not saying if that is or isn't needed here but I find it an interesting idea moving forward in the future.
10 seconds flat is probably a bad idea, because they'd instantly be matching their timers to mage demesnes (or the other way around), causing all sorts of problems.
What the mists do is bard song effects, but without earwort protection. They consists of abilities that are prepped ahead of time but aren't ents, that don't have a visible/manipulable tick timer, are focused on a single opponent (except in extreme/rare cases, which lines up with the adjuvants), are passive on that single target, and so on.
Unlike bard effects, they are not nullified (yet) by people in their own archetype via a fugue mechanic, aren't stopped by people in their own archetype via a protection/captivate mechanic, they aren't stopped by love, they don't backfire via paranoia, they aren't stopped via something like earwort, they don't time out, and they are faster than bard song afflictions. In exchange, they cost commodities.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
According to the lines Eritheyl posted, all the attacks that hit all enemies and consume mists do a hefty chunk of bleeding. between 500-700. The big one does 2000 apparently.
Well I just mean I wasn't sure what type of passives they should be compared to in terms of general mechanics. Like ents tend to fall together, demesnes, etc. If they are intended to be entirely unique, that's fine! Can work with that.
I think love is a definite must. Considering psionics is largely unblockable and isn't hindered by most things outside of prone...having both a passive and active offense that is extremely difficult to hinder is going to be very harsh. Will lead to "run or die" scenarios that players generally dislike. Once more people are out and about testing, I will take a look at the tics.
What I think I want to make sure about mists is that they are spaced out and don't fire based on when they're cast (something like how passive music songs work).
- Everytime a passives based mechanic comes out we expect a counter. Gems were a huge issue and were then put on being targetted, that was still a huge issue and we can now counter that. Why was this not taken to heart? Mists should effect the caster (only) when the target has paranoia (mental classes) or .... asthma? Need a physical aff for those who cannot readily achieve sticking a focusable aff.
- Eventru, should it be viable 1 on 1? At full affs sure, but the example says the problem is the buff from linking. That buff means you are not 1 on 1 in the purest sense. Unless the damage bonus fades when you arent together, it has people who may not even be in the fight participating. I cant remember the similar skill, but it only buffs ego while the members are in the same area. 3K+ damage and 2K bleeding is far and away just a stupidly high number. Trans mage skills are lower damage (EDIT: this one varies between guilds on its exact amount), require a meld, are delayed, and only one person can use em. This new skill several people can do it at once and we havent even seen it with affs on target.
- On hit effects are ok until there is 5+ of them. Sheens + PhantomArmour + any tertiary effects. At the very least, make it so the aqua has to pick a sheen, not have all of them please.
- Lerad: She means the chance of an on hit proc is divided by the number of hits. So a 15% chance to fire means 5% chance per hit from monk, 7.5% chance from warrior. So you have the same odds overall.
- The skillset is well designed in many ways, and flawed in others. Overall it heavily favors Telepathy, lots of ego drain and gobs of blackout. It also works for TK's but telekinetics do not need any other skills at all anyway, so that's not saying much. TK still works without meld, the nerf to burst rates high enough from those I have spoken to.
- Lust should disable mists but not turn them on the user of course, if even neccessary. I prefer the above options which more closely resemble gems.
His problem with it hitting monks isn't that he has a greater chance. Look at it this way, if a monk and a mage both had a 100% chance (still equal) to proc peace, the mage has enough time (~3.5 seconds) to cure the peace affliction before their next round, while the monk misses out on their second and third hits.
Sorry, Malarious, but I tend to disagree with your assessments and conclusions. You should not 'expect' a counter to every passive effect. (Indeed, I'm wondering why we are keeping protection scrolls right now!) Yes, multiple chemantics can really stick it to an individual but so can multiple of any class. You also are making it blaringly obvious that you are making assumptions about how the skills work without any facts. Monks and knights that get multiple hits will NOT have a greater chance to get sheened because we made it so only the first hit counts. Further, we did the math on the likelihood of sheens firing and are very comfortable with how it works out (i.e., less than 1% chance of 3 or 4 sheens, etc.). Again, I urge everyone to try to view mists on their own and not force comparisons to other skillsets and also not to jump to conclusions until you actually know how it works!
Protection scrolls have never really filled a role once a fight starts. It was purely to stop effects at range, mages can and have/do strip it from several people quickly. You can strip 2-3 protections before you recover from a single psionic combo.
Every guild has counters, to turn against that now is powe rcreep or a mistake in prior designs. Warriors would love to see stance, parry, reboundnig removed. As would monks.
My statement on monk/warrior rates was based on the envoy report and statements from Iosai. The exact implementation is up to you, though with what Enyalida said the chance to fire should be at the end if the passive wont usually stop the attack.
I don't even know how we ended up talking about deleting them, but let's not. I thought we were trying to shift away from melds being the end-all-and-be-all.
While it may be true that there's no way give accurate numbers or reductions without further testing, there is still value in theorycrafting especially given that it comes from people who usually know what they're doing. Frankly, I imagine that whatever's brought up here will end up being scrutinized the most.
I'll just toss in one comment there, Estarra... Wouldn't it be better to
make the _last_ hit count for sheens? Otherwise it'll actually create a
problem for monks and warriors where their subsequent hits won't go through when the peace-sheen is hit, but caster classes won't have any such thing to worry about.
The peace sheen is supposed to be ego drain, not peace affliction.
To quote the AB file from Xiel's site. Peaceful Coat yourself in a clear and peaceful sheen.Syntax: WATERWORK PEACEFUL SHEEN Outlay: platinum 10 pellucid 100 This peaceful sheen covers your skin. Anyone who attacks you may be affected by your peace, their ego draining away.
Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
I'll just toss in one comment there, Estarra... Wouldn't it be better to
make the _last_ hit count for sheens? Otherwise it'll actually create a
problem for monks and warriors where their subsequent hits won't go through when the peace-sheen is hit, but caster classes won't have any such thing to worry about.
Actually, I think there may have been miscommunication of when and if 'pacifism' is given as an affliction (which is probably my fault!). I need to touch base with Iosai on that. In any event, I'm not sure if its mechanically or easily possible to have the last hit count.
Apparently, Peaceful never did give the peace affliction earlier either. According to the affliction line thread, Peaceful did nothing, but people were convinced that it was supposed to give the pacifism affliction (probably due to the name) and treated that as fact. The affliction line itself however is far more appropriate for ego drain, as it is supposed to be, than pacifism.
Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
The peace sheen is supposed to be ego drain, not peace affliction.
To quote the AB file from Xiel's site. Peaceful Coat yourself in a clear and peaceful sheen.
Syntax: WATERWORK PEACEFUL SHEEN Outlay: platinum 10 pellucid 100 This peaceful sheen covers your skin. Anyone who attacks you may be affected by your peace, their ego draining away.
Meh. Sub "peace sheen" with "ardent sheen", which gives the lovers affliction (which stops you from attacking the person who afflicted you with it).
Design doc has peaceful sheen draining more ego. Anyway, I'll touch base with Iosai on it! We just may go with a peace-type as it makes more sense but feel free to give alternate suggestions!
Design doc has peaceful sheen draining more ego. Anyway, I'll touch base with Iosai on it! We just may go with a peace-type as it makes more sense but feel free to give alternate suggestions!
Comments
List of 1v1 passives: fae, demons, angels, demesnes, reality, maelstrom, bard songs, gems, flesh ents, dark moon, stag totem, crow belch, crow spew, tracking pits, tracking dogs, eyesnare, contagion, coldaura, healing auras
List of 1v1 passives with counters (1 or more): fae, demons, angels, demesnes, reality, maelstrom, bard songs, gems, flesh ents, dark moon, stag totem, crow belch, crow spew, tracking pits, tracking dogs, eyesnare, contagion, coldaura
List of 1v1 passives without counters: healing auras
It's generally smart to apply old knowledge to new ideas instead of having to prove old points.
I was more speaking to the protection scroll/tinker enchantment/ability to kill sheens, mists and globes style arguments, ie things directly designed/intended to hinder mists, versus something that simply hinders all offensive acts.
However, considering the predictions of players instead of just saying "that's only theorycrafting, go fight some more and come back!" does help foster discussion as well as choices for solutions when actual data does come in. It's reasonable to expect changes or tweaks to be only made on the back of clear proof, but it's also just as reasonable to pay attention to preliminary analysis and look out for possible problems that are pre-identified. I hope I didn't break any rules putting forth my opinions and expecting not to be brushed off, because I have no intention of not doing so, now or in the future.
My preference regarding the passive effects is that they should not be easily counterable and I would like to see balance around that fact. I will note that the protection scrolls did not exist for a very long time. Mage demesne effects were meant to wear you down and not be easily avoided. The reason protection scrolls exist (for those who weren't around) is because of the many complaints of traveling through demesnes and getting worn down by the passive spells, especially those spells that broke apart groups. Thus, we gave mages a very easy way to take off the protection scrolls when you were in the same room with mages, i.e., they could easily remove the protection. In group combat, of course, it may be harder for a mage to take off multiple protection scrolls but that would never be an issue for a chemantic (because they can't target multiple people).
So, anyway, I did have a concern that the tics of the mists were too fast (but was convinced otherwise) but that's something we can certainly look at. I agree the blackouts with TK should be looked at so we could combine a look at psionics along with our accelerated review of aquachemantics.
I will just say that love potion still affects demesnes. I think the closest thing to mists is Researcher gems, and those were unblockable until enough of an issue was raised that now you can violet them away.
Even the slower, smaller impact passives such as fae are still counterable with disloyalty and murdering them. I'm not sure what to do here. Do you want mists to be brought down to the levels of fae in terms of how beneficial they are so that they may remain unblockable and remain reasonable? I'm not saying if that's a good or bad idea (I have suspicions) but since I've not fought the new skillset I can't really say. I'm just trying to see where the comparisons should be made so we can adjust and assess accordingly.
Generally speaking, I would think effects with bigger impacts need to be counterable, where effects with smaller impace should be more difficult to avoid. So I'm thinking mists should be low impact skills?
edit: 9 second tic is pretty darn fast. Faster than demesnes and fae and bard songs. If it's going to be AND unblockable, I really think the impact of the passives should be low. Very low.
Signature!
Which effect gives bleeding? It wasn't in the design so could be a bug or just a minor side effect of one of the damage types.
Let's not try to make them like fae or like demesnes or like anything else. The mists stand on their own and should be balanced based on the reality of what they do which is unlike fae or demesnes or institute gems. You only get four. They are the base offense of chemantics. They should be powerful and hard to avoid.
Anyway, I'm not adverse to love potion avoiding mists. Also not adverse to changing the tic time--suggestions?
-
Signature!
According to the lines Eritheyl posted, all the attacks that hit all enemies and consume mists do a hefty chunk of bleeding. between 500-700. The big one does 2000 apparently.
Well I just mean I wasn't sure what type of passives they should be compared to in terms of general mechanics. Like ents tend to fall together, demesnes, etc. If they are intended to be entirely unique, that's fine! Can work with that.
I think love is a definite must. Considering psionics is largely unblockable and isn't hindered by most things outside of prone...having both a passive and active offense that is extremely difficult to hinder is going to be very harsh. Will lead to "run or die" scenarios that players generally dislike. Once more people are out and about testing, I will take a look at the tics.
What I think I want to make sure about mists is that they are spaced out and don't fire based on when they're cast (something like how passive music songs work).
- Everytime a passives based mechanic comes out we expect a counter. Gems were a huge issue and were then put on being targetted, that was still a huge issue and we can now counter that. Why was this not taken to heart? Mists should effect the caster (only) when the target has paranoia (mental classes) or .... asthma? Need a physical aff for those who cannot readily achieve sticking a focusable aff.
- Eventru, should it be viable 1 on 1? At full affs sure, but the example says the problem is the buff from linking. That buff means you are not 1 on 1 in the purest sense. Unless the damage bonus fades when you arent together, it has people who may not even be in the fight participating. I cant remember the similar skill, but it only buffs ego while the members are in the same area. 3K+ damage and 2K bleeding is far and away just a stupidly high number. Trans mage skills are lower damage (EDIT: this one varies between guilds on its exact amount), require a meld, are delayed, and only one person can use em. This new skill several people can do it at once and we havent even seen it with affs on target.
- On hit effects are ok until there is 5+ of them. Sheens + PhantomArmour + any tertiary effects. At the very least, make it so the aqua has to pick a sheen, not have all of them please.
- Lerad: She means the chance of an on hit proc is divided by the number of hits. So a 15% chance to fire means 5% chance per hit from monk, 7.5% chance from warrior. So you have the same odds overall.
- The skillset is well designed in many ways, and flawed in others. Overall it heavily favors Telepathy, lots of ego drain and gobs of blackout. It also works for TK's but telekinetics do not need any other skills at all anyway, so that's not saying much. TK still works without meld, the nerf to burst rates high enough from those I have spoken to.
- Lust should disable mists but not turn them on the user of course, if even neccessary. I prefer the above options which more closely resemble gems.
Every guild has counters, to turn against that now is powe rcreep or a mistake in prior designs. Warriors would love to see stance, parry, reboundnig removed. As would monks.
My statement on monk/warrior rates was based on the envoy report and statements from Iosai. The exact implementation is up to you, though with what Enyalida said the chance to fire should be at the end if the passive wont usually stop the attack.
To quote the AB file from Xiel's site.
Peaceful Coat yourself in a clear and peaceful sheen.Syntax: WATERWORK PEACEFUL SHEEN
Outlay: platinum 10 pellucid 100
This peaceful sheen covers your skin. Anyone who attacks you may be affected by your peace, their ego draining away.
Actually, I think there may have been miscommunication of when and if 'pacifism' is given as an affliction (which is probably my fault!). I need to touch base with Iosai on that. In any event, I'm not sure if its mechanically or easily possible to have the last hit count.
Meh. Sub "peace sheen" with "ardent sheen", which gives the lovers affliction (which stops you from attacking the person who afflicted you with it).
Signature!