The impression I'm getting is that afflictions which make coding a curing system difficult aren't giving enough benefit for the barrier to entry it creates. Is that true for all of those types of afflictions? Like the ones which put asterisks in the affliction line?
A sleep lock without aeon is unreliable to say the least, in theory there will be a point when natural wake takes too long depending on your mana, their eq speed, and such, but that is not a strategy that is a gimmick.
Whether or not it works is also a matter of debate because of curing and other skillsets. Self ignition, ents, etc can allow you to break the sleep even when you wouldn't, and certain sets of curing (not singular) have had issues in different specific conditions. I would say it is a discussion you may both want to pass on, because it will not result in a for sure anymore than "nerf trueheal" will at this present moment.
That said, I agree sleeplocks may need to be looked at, but I would say any burst system that decides if you kill someone with 20 seconds should be. You didnt cure ectoplasm after hexes, you die. That sort of thing is bad.
There is no combat if the other person cannot fight back.
People do not tend to mind dying, they mind when they can do nothing about it, because aeon stops them, damage is too high, or they can't move because of ecto/heko/stuns/KellySaidSo. Moving combat to always allow combat is the first best step, and most likely to make for happy combatants and jumped noncombatants alike.
There is no combat if the other person cannot fight back.
People do not tend to mind dying, they mind when they can do nothing about it, because aeon stops them, damage is too high, or they can't move because of ecto/heko/stuns/KellySaidSo. Moving combat to always allow combat is the first best step, and most likely to make for happy combatants and jumped noncombatants alike.
Perhaps most of us have had the experience in some game of showing up getting hit with some ungodly stun or one-shoted by damage. As you say it isn't the dying so much as it is either not much you can do about a situation or highly unsatisfying gameplay. And before someone tries to add balance, no one is saying that a character should ever die quickly.
For the record, there's a huge difference between not being able to do something about a situation, and complaining because you died to xyz and don't want to bother figuring out how to counter it. That's Lusternia Combat Complaints 101. Certain individuals will make broad, not based in fact, claims about certain classes (ie, Illuminati give passive ectoplasm!), rather than take the time to learn a counter to deal with it.
For the record, there's a huge difference between not being able to do something about a situation, and complaining because you died to xyz and don't want to bother figuring out how to counter it. That's Lusternia Combat Complaints 101. Certain individuals will make broad, not based in fact, claims about certain classes (ie, Illuminati give passive ectoplasm!), rather than take the time to learn a counter to deal with it.
Oh dear... was that a pot shot at me? I believe it was. Ever tried to have two illums with a full set of ents just order ents on you? I had that recently. Good luck writhing for most of your time due to sluggishness/transfix. But hey, illum are perfectly balanced, right? You notice @Malarious making mentions about how sluggishness needs gone for instance. We've had that discussion on more than one occasion. Amusingly, illum tend to rate pretty highly on the kill order list, usually even before the melder simply because of the order entourage kill target lockdown capacity they have. As to the illum give passive ecto argument, well... it's actually worse, they give passive incurable better-than-ecto affliction for 6s every 12s. But sure, let me know how poorly my cure priorities are set up and how I need to learn to counter entourage.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Yeah getting teamed sucks. I'd expect to die too if people focus on me.
Re: hekoskeri - Malarious has never stopped loudly mentioning hekoskeri every chance he gets. Check the overhaul thread. I assure you, I'd like to think I am the most qualified regarding illuminati balance and am well aware of what should be done about hekoskeri. Hint: it's not to continually call "delete" over and over. Hint 2: I haven't had one tell/message discussing possible solutions. I've sure read a lot of forum whining though.
Maybe if envoys didn't grind to a halt, we can give it another shot!
Yeah getting teamed sucks. I'd expect to die too if people focus on me.
Re: hekoskeri - Malarious has never stopped loudly mentioning hekoskeri every chance he gets. Check the overhaul thread. I assure you, I'd like to think I am the most qualified regarding illuminati balance and am well aware of what should be done about hekoskeri. Hint: it's not to continually call "delete" over and over. Hint 2: I haven't had one tell/message discussing possible solutions. I've sure read a lot of forum whining though.
Maybe if envoys didn't grind to a halt, we can give it another shot!
The solution 3 on that report wasn't the greatest idea is all. Nowadays it's a case of kill the hekoskeri or don't bother fighting the illuminati. That said, they're supposed to die in 2 hits but still take 3 to kill is yet another issue I have with that particular entity. And even if it were twice, it takes far too long to kill. (Entities should also not have the capability of shielding which happens if they're ordered passive after the second hit. True, the ent is shut down, but the moment target is switched, they can be put on the sluggishness train again) Fact is, sluggishness is not an affliction that needs to exist for a class that already has ectoplasm and has access to passive transfix. It's very much a case of just sitting there and watching the fight go by around you when 2 illum sic their entities on you. Dying if people focus on me is not that big a deal... I've been primary melder for far too long to not expect people to focus me. Getting completely shut down by 2 people's passives is a completely different matter altogether.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Regarding Wiccan sleep lock, as a SD I could generally stick it long enough as a hexen to toad someone. As a wump, and it did depend on vapors to strip insomnia under blackout and to throw some other affs on. I'll have to double check some logs for the precise set of steps, but if I remember correctly it was vapors, sleep, lash, vapors/stupidity, double sleep, twist double sleep, banshee tick, lash, toad.
Solution 3 is a nerf that solved the stated problem in the report. Each previous iteration of the ent was way worse.
Regarding entity shield- that's how mobs work. Nothing new but might be possible to change but who knows.
If you're getting shut down and not dying then just tumble out. They will have to focus you or refocus their ents then.
They just chase... and tumble under sluggish/ecto is horrendous. By the time I get balance back, I'm in a worse spot than I was.
EDIT: And chances are, if two illum are on you, you'll be tumbling with transfix and ropes and they'd be ready to simply empress you.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Then wait until it wears off and tumble, it's not rocket science.
You need to learn to counter better, you actually mentioned one solution in one of your rants!
We only won War event because of hekoskeri, true story. or was it Aegis? I forget
2-3 hits to kill an ent has always been the norm, I don't know where you got the idea that it should only be two hits, but I've never heard that before. The only change to ents has been making them uncrittable that I know of. If the ent is shielding, that's good news for you, I'd just let it go.
I removed most of the post as I would prefer to avoid targeted discussion. So I will write some other things.
@Shuyin, I would actually love to hear your ideas. In game preferably, as we can assume without envoys they will not be done, and it is potentially off topic for this thread. I am curious the original intent and if hekoskeri ended up how you thought it would be and such.
When you go down the HELP CURELIST, sluggishness is not in it, but ranks up there with ectoplasm. It does not contribute to meaningful combat and just causes reductions between 25% and 33% of your offense.
Honestly, I am not trying to pick on Illuminati but sludgeworm and hekoskeri are unique afflictions and could be slotted to go away. Saesh said they are discussing transfix, so spix could be replaced too.
That is one thing this overhaul will do... make a lot of skills do nothing and have to be redone... or we will lose skills in most skillsets! (Poor hexes).
I agree that there are way too many sources of aeon, but, as a researcher's point of view... if its get removed, then the guild will have a serious re-work due to the removal of aeon... the skills we have revolve around using aeon properly and the reliance on primarily what looks to be mental afflicts for warps that is too easily not a problem nowadays, much less aeon being a problem. I honestly think its a laughable joke aeon really is to be that problematic. But again, less sources of it yes, however take in consider of what guilds to limit it to and how that will affect them in a critical way while we're looking at this overhaul.
Why? Aeon doesn't actually do anything to the sleeplock portion of it.
Getting out of sleeplock with and without aeon are two entirely different beasts. Without aeon, once you wake up, you've got a chance to recover. With aeon, you're far more limited in your options. It's not so much of a sleep "lock" without the aeon portion helping keep you down.
In my experience, you get some nasty long sleeps sometimes that don't require much of anything extra, once your endurance is low enough. The aeon helps cement it, but if you get into one of those long sleeps there's nothing 'not sucking' is going to do to help you since waking is just hitting wake and praying it goes through fast enough.
Quite simply. without aeon, you are putting up metawake right away when you wake up. You have to be extremely unlucky to die to sleep without aeon (it can happen, that's also why in the original post I said consistently). And no one gets slept locked on the first burst, you just haven't used up enough endurance to sleep long enough to make it work. Hexen Nihilist sleeplock is pretty similar to a Dancer sleeplock (wiccans have better mana passive drain but Demon is faster than fae).
Without aeon, you have no way to hinder them from killing your pooka, forcing them to turn off metawake. If you can't turn off metawake, you can't sleeplock, if you can't turn off metawake reliably because your pooka is dead, or because you have nothing to stop them from turning it on right away when they wake up, you can't sleeplock.
If you are fighting a Dancer one on one and do not go into it with metawake on, and killing the pooka right away *assuming not in a forested room, then you deserve to die.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
I've seen nihilists pull of sleep locks against top named combatants as far back as 5 years ago before sacrifice was considered viable. Don't assume you know who I have seen!
In my experience, you get some nasty long sleeps sometimes that don't require much of anything extra, once your endurance is low enough. The aeon helps cement it, but if you get into one of those long sleeps there's nothing 'not sucking' is going to do to help you since waking is just hitting wake and praying it goes through fast enough.
Once your endurance is low enough usually means a drawn out fight has happened. If you haven't killed the pooka by then, you deserve to die.
Without a pooka, a Moondancer has no way of sleeplocking. And it dies in one-three hits.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
I don't think I'm the one that needs to discard my presumptions about
what others have done. I've been part of the Nihilists for the past 4
years, whether by covenant or part of the guild, I know every single
strategy there is to do with them, I have theorycrafted, I have tested
as multiple races, I have actually been in combat in that time, when changes have happened to the guild.
You cannot sleeplock without aeon consistently. Note the word consistently.
This
is what everyone is telling you, and you are brushing them off with
saying "see for yourself." Or, "it has been done before, or that the
theory still exists."
I'll just leave what Lerad said, and maybe bold it, so you understand, you are not right.
"Just like what I argue for in my posts are my opinion, based on my firsthand experience and my observations,
so too are your arguments (based on your experience and observations)
"opinion". These statements that we have been making, that "sleeplock is
viable without aeon", or my "sleeplock is hardly viable without aeon",
are both opinions. They are not facts. If you're telling me aeon lasts
for X seconds to Y seconds due to A formula in B code, then yes, that is
fact. That's not the case here. Your statements are no more set in
stone than are mine. Coming from an admin does not make opinions
magically become facts, whether or not the admin has a "living
understanding of PK to the extent the players currently involved in day
to day PK do". "
Editted to add:
I'd also love to know who these mysterious nihilists are that pulled off sleeplocks consistently without aeon.
It wasn't Fillin, since I used his system, used his entire hexen
offensive strategy, and it never included sleeplocking, was mostly
targetted on mana draining with addiction/recklessness
paralysis/impatience.
It wasn't Thoros, since he taught me my Sacrifice trick and has never been hexen.
And that's it for Nihilist combatants outside of Hyde, Daedalion and myself in the past 5 years (maybe Malarious was there at the tail end).
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
Unfortunately I shall simply have to reiterate that I have no horse in this race and base decisions on only what evidence I see. Hostilities towards me because you believe you know what is in front of me does not make me more amicable to your case. I'm certainly willing to listen so sound argument, especially if you have evidence to show me to support it!
Then wait until it wears off and tumble, it's not rocket science.
If you think that is sound advice, you are underestimating how much time that is. This only makes it look like you really have no idea what it's like to deal with this in groups.
I used sleeplocks as a Nihilist, but I used aeon tarot as did most of the Nihilists we tried to work that out with (mana drain doesn't wake, so you could set up wracks, but it is a PITA).
Hexes was played with, but it relies on the timer for waking and the target not using something to stop it. Luciphage symbols (on call dominates) were invaluable for these types of setups, but in the end proved unreliable without aeon.
Darksilver has been used to cause sleep, and this is easier with aeon generally, but I see no reason you could not do it with hexes..... but the issue comes into play on how you will use it. For instance you can set up a sacrifice under sleep if it lasts about 6 seconds (as sleep hits, ecto on recover, hex scabies/epi, cruc). Note that crucify will of course wake. I liked darksilver, and there was a couple Nihilists who I know also played around with it for awhile, back when we had like Thoros, Celina, Lyco, and myself I believe at least 3 of us played with darksilver.
Since then curing has also improved considerably if you aren't in aeon, so most of these will not last long enough.
We can lay out a hypothetical fight, but without aeon you are relying on any kill method setup being shorter than that. In SOME CASES this is viable in part.
Primarily:
-2s: Set up dominate ahead of time.
0s: Quickening
4s: Sleeplock (hexes .5s about)
4.5s: leech
6.5s: leech
8.5s: leech
10.5s: leech (demon should have hit by now)
12.5s: wrack.
NOTE: Leech is something like 600+5% of max mana (approximated off the top of my head), so you may only need 3 leech, and things like powersink or putting up metawake before hand could have reduced their mana ahead of time too!
This setup assumes a few things, but assuming there is no wakeup time you will kill a target in between 6 and 8 seconds if they do nothing to force a wake before then. These times are also lower if you have an eq bonus of course.
What evidence are you seeing that the rest of us haven't? I think that's what we are wondering here.
The difficult part of being an admin is that disclosing specifics of information we have (especially pk information) is a difficult thing. We were all once players and we avoid all details that may undermine our jobs by exposing who we were. You've accused me of only watching poor combatants and falsifying information because you aren't personally aware of it, despite the lack of any motivation to do such a thing on my part. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to discuss a topic with one who claims to know everything ( by your own words "I know every single strategy), especially when my position requires a degree of vagueness. I shall simply agree with you that it may not be consistent, but this discussion was not about consistent, but viability, when you implied I was wrong by nature of only watching poor combatants. I presume nothing about you, and generally base my decisions on the tangible evidence before me. I do it brush anyone off (much less the "everyone" you presume to speak for). It is simply that when you speak in absolutes to try and dictate the direction of the discussion, my options are either to ignore you or state that I have evidence to the contrary when I do. When it comes to sleep locks being non viable without aeon, I simply have evidence to the contrary( as Rivius observed). If the hostility persists, I can certainly do the former though I prefer not to.
Not being able to disclose classified information is, of course, no fault of yours. It's your prerogative not to believe us if you have evidence to the contrary. However, similarly, it becomes every bit as logical for us to do the same since we have evidence to the contrary of your claims.
My opinions are simply opinions based off my anecdotal examples. Silvanus, on the other hand, has named everyone he believes is worth being categorized as "Nihilist combatant". He doesn't just "claim" to know everything - he has backed up his claims by naming names and specific situations, qualifying his names with actually verifiable information (Claim: Fillin didn't use sleeplock - Verfication: Fillin's system, which he uses, has no sleeplock in its offensive configurations etc). He has gone pretty much as far as anyone can in naming specific examples, literally people and scenarios - I didn't even do that in my posts. It would do everyone, including yourself, a disservice if he were to abandon his arguments just because you say so. The basis of debate is to move to a better position based on evidence - your claims that your statements of opinion are not opinions, but are actual "truth" means that our positions are flawed due to some evidence we are not privy to. Yet until we see that evidence, it is illogical to abandon the position that we have arrived at from our own observations. Your position requires a "degree of vagueness", fine. You then have to understand that such vagueness doesn't make for very convincing arguments. It is difficult to discuss a topic with someone who is unable to, through no fault of his own, qualify his statements with more information.
I'm not sure where hostility is coming from except from my one post where I responded to your accusation of me trying shenanigans in my arguments. Although, by your words, that's a misunderstanding, which is fine. I've since left the conversation myself, anyway, since I've said everything I'm prepared to say. My opinions can stand or fall on the merits of the arguments I have brought forth, and so can yours - because Silvanus has not accused you of anything you've not accused him of. Asking for the evidence that underlies your arguments is not hostility - if you're not allowed to present said evidence, I don't think anyone will blame you, and I don't think anyone has.
Comments
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Re: hekoskeri - Malarious has never stopped loudly mentioning hekoskeri every chance he gets. Check the overhaul thread. I assure you, I'd like to think I am the most qualified regarding illuminati balance and am well aware of what should be done about hekoskeri. Hint: it's not to continually call "delete" over and over. Hint 2: I haven't had one tell/message discussing possible solutions. I've sure read a lot of forum whining though.
Maybe if envoys didn't grind to a halt, we can give it another shot!
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Regarding entity shield- that's how mobs work. Nothing new but might be possible to change but who knows.
If you're getting shut down and not dying then just tumble out. They will have to focus you or refocus their ents then.
EDIT: And chances are, if two illum are on you, you'll be tumbling with transfix and ropes and they'd be ready to simply empress you.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I want you to watch somebody else because they suck at combat.
Without aeon, you have no way to hinder them from killing your pooka, forcing them to turn off metawake. If you can't turn off metawake, you can't sleeplock, if you can't turn off metawake reliably because your pooka is dead, or because you have nothing to stop them from turning it on right away when they wake up, you can't sleeplock.
If you are fighting a Dancer one on one and do not go into it with metawake on, and killing the pooka right away *assuming not in a forested room, then you deserve to die.
A Mugwump Hexen Nihilist can not pull off an effective sleep lock consistently.
A mugwump aeon Nihilist can pull off an amazing sleep lock that is probably better than a Dancers at a consistent rate.
Once your endurance is low enough usually means a drawn out fight has happened. If you haven't killed the pooka by then, you deserve to die.
Without a pooka, a Moondancer has no way of sleeplocking. And it dies in one-three hits.
You cannot sleeplock without aeon consistently. Note the word consistently.
This is what everyone is telling you, and you are brushing them off with saying "see for yourself." Or, "it has been done before, or that the theory still exists."
I'll just leave what Lerad said, and maybe bold it, so you understand, you are not right.
"Just like what I argue for in my posts are my opinion, based on my firsthand experience and my observations, so too are your arguments (based on your experience and observations) "opinion". These statements that we have been making, that "sleeplock is viable without aeon", or my "sleeplock is hardly viable without aeon", are both opinions. They are not facts. If you're telling me aeon lasts for X seconds to Y seconds due to A formula in B code, then yes, that is fact. That's not the case here. Your statements are no more set in stone than are mine. Coming from an admin does not make opinions magically become facts, whether or not the admin has a "living understanding of PK to the extent the players currently involved in day to day PK do". "
Editted to add:
I'd also love to know who these mysterious nihilists are that pulled off sleeplocks consistently without aeon.
It wasn't Fillin, since I used his system, used his entire hexen offensive strategy, and it never included sleeplocking, was mostly targetted on mana draining with addiction/recklessness paralysis/impatience.
It wasn't Thoros, since he taught me my Sacrifice trick and has never been hexen.
And that's it for Nihilist combatants outside of Hyde, Daedalion and myself in the past 5 years (maybe Malarious was there at the tail end).
The difficult part of being an admin is that disclosing specifics of information we have (especially pk information) is a difficult thing. We were all once players and we avoid all details that may undermine our jobs by exposing who we were. You've accused me of only watching poor combatants and falsifying information because you aren't personally aware of it, despite the lack of any motivation to do such a thing on my part. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to discuss a topic with one who claims to know everything ( by your own words "I know every single strategy), especially when my position requires a degree of vagueness. I shall simply agree with you that it may not be consistent, but this discussion was not about consistent, but viability, when you implied I was wrong by nature of only watching poor combatants. I presume nothing about you, and generally base my decisions on the tangible evidence before me. I do it brush anyone off (much less the "everyone" you presume to speak for). It is simply that when you speak in absolutes to try and dictate the direction of the discussion, my options are either to ignore you or state that I have evidence to the contrary when I do. When it comes to sleep locks being non viable without aeon, I simply have evidence to the contrary( as Rivius observed). If the hostility persists, I can certainly do the former though I prefer not to.
My opinions are simply opinions based off my anecdotal examples. Silvanus, on the other hand, has named everyone he believes is worth being categorized as "Nihilist combatant". He doesn't just "claim" to know everything - he has backed up his claims by naming names and specific situations, qualifying his names with actually verifiable information (Claim: Fillin didn't use sleeplock - Verfication: Fillin's system, which he uses, has no sleeplock in its offensive configurations etc). He has gone pretty much as far as anyone can in naming specific examples, literally people and scenarios - I didn't even do that in my posts. It would do everyone, including yourself, a disservice if he were to abandon his arguments just because you say so. The basis of debate is to move to a better position based on evidence - your claims that your statements of opinion are not opinions, but are actual "truth" means that our positions are flawed due to some evidence we are not privy to. Yet until we see that evidence, it is illogical to abandon the position that we have arrived at from our own observations. Your position requires a "degree of vagueness", fine. You then have to understand that such vagueness doesn't make for very convincing arguments. It is difficult to discuss a topic with someone who is unable to, through no fault of his own, qualify his statements with more information.
I'm not sure where hostility is coming from except from my one post where I responded to your accusation of me trying shenanigans in my arguments. Although, by your words, that's a misunderstanding, which is fine. I've since left the conversation myself, anyway, since I've said everything I'm prepared to say. My opinions can stand or fall on the merits of the arguments I have brought forth, and so can yours - because Silvanus has not accused you of anything you've not accused him of. Asking for the evidence that underlies your arguments is not hostility - if you're not allowed to present said evidence, I don't think anyone will blame you, and I don't think anyone has.