How low can we go?

Daganev

The recent announcement that there will only be 4 cures corresponding to the 4 cures balances has gotten me thinking about how simple can combat get and still be fun and have the complexity that originally made IRE combat what it is.

As far as I can remember there are a few categories of afflictions.
1. Afflictions which use up a healing balance.
2. Afflictions which make it 'difficult' to automate healing
3. Afflictions which reduce a resource such as health/mana/ego
4. Afflictions which shut down offense, such as stopping weapons, turning ents against the owner etc.
5. Afflictions which remove defenses.

I'm wondering if this means that the combat system can be simplified into 5 types of afflictions, each cured by one of seven means. 4 cures, and 3 vials for a total of 35 afflictions. Down from the current 200.

Oh, and just so it's clear, I'm imagining that the 35 afflictions would be ones that currently exist, and all afflictions that are cured by the same type of thing or serve the same purpose are rolled into it. So it's likely I'm forgetting about a purpose of some afflictions.

Daganev

Saesh said:

It would be exceedingly difficult to get it below 35 afflictions. The core of the issue lies in the volume of "unique" afflictions only one or maybe two classes has access to. Cloudcoils, burn levels, temporary insanity, blacklung, timewarp, daydreaming, narcolepsy, crucified, on and on and on and on. Removing them all, or a large chunk of them, would require rewrites of a lot of class mechanics which is beyond the scope of the overhaul.

This is a good point. Perhaps these subsystems can be abstracted such that they fall into one of the 35 afflictions, with the 'finishing move' being the 'unique thing's once the right combination of afflictions has been 'stuck'.

So for example, crucified would require that you maintain any 5 afflictions which are focused on stopping the offense, while temporary insanity would be based on 5 afflictions which drain someone of ego.

Iasmos

1. When you say four cures, I know what that means. When you say three vials, are you referring to healing, mana, and bromide potions?
2. I believe this is greatly oversimplifying the situation. There are easily more than five categories of afflictions. Some hinder attacking, some hinder movement. Some hinder more, some hinder less. Some are meant to be cured more easily, some are meant to remain for longer.
3. What happens to poisons when we cut down the afflictions and make many poisons redundant? The same question goes for affliction-heavy skills, like hexes and runes, I'm sure.

Daganev

1. Yep.
2. Ok, so there are 6 categories (movement, forgot about that) and 2 levels of afflictions, so 84?
3. Same thing that happens with herbs and potions I assume.

Steingrim

While there are four physical cures being introduced, I'm not convinced things like fire and frost are going away. Writhe isn't. The special class ones are possibly close to 35ish alone. It is one thing to cut the number of cures, but keep in mind that isn't considering things like gusting people away as a 'cure'.

Everyone and in that group I include staff is likely to have their own pet afflictions and cures and likely loathe to see their pet aff go. For instance, if you want to make entry much easier to non-coders then getting rid of aeon and possibly things that block using cures (if they'll cause curing to shut off), recklessness, stun, etc., would achieve that, but that doesn't seem to be the level being shoot for here. Which isn't to say it should or needs to be, just saying the admin's minimum isn't likely to be the same as yours.

Daganev

Right, but would combat still be fun without Aeon or would it become too easy? Is better coding part of the fun? Should it be? Does it need to be?

Steingrim

Daganev said:

Right, but would combat still be fun without Aeon or would it become too easy? Is better coding part of the fun? Should it be? Does it need to be?

I wouldn't mind aeon just delaying commands rather then delaying and overwriting them.

Aeon is one of those affs that a not small number of admin and players seem to really love. I'm of a mind that aeon is at the very least too common here. Aeon has been brought up and my impression is that it is staying.

Daganev

Is it staying due to nostalgia or because it adds the right amount of fun?

Lerad

Aeon is one of those affs that can eat the dust and I won't miss at all. It provides little strategy to combat - it's an ultra-high priority affliction that pretty much means death if you don't cure out of it, and while it is stuck, offers the victim no recourse other than to try to cure out of it asap. To do anything else would be to fight at a greatly reduced efficiency (you can no longer cure other afflictions at the same time as your attacks), that amounts to signing a death warrant. It is used as a crutch to make other questionable strategies and tactics viable (see: sleeplock) simply because it is so overbearingly effective at shutting down any semblance of strategizing.

When you get hit by aeon, there's only one answer to the question "What do I do now?" and that answer is "Cure out of aeon asap." You can't run, you can't slow the opponent down, you can't attack, you can't throw a pot of curry at your opponent's mom. There is literally no other choice, except to roll over and die. I vote for delete it into oblivion forever.

Saesh

FYI there is no discussion being had about reworking aeon. I encourage the continued discussion but I don't want to give you false hope.

Malayn

Actually we had a little discussion on aeon before, it was not aimed at this... because I would rather see it go away. All groups eventually resolve to damage spam or aeon presently, and the overhaul has made no effort to change that, so we can expect aeon spam to continue.  

Idea we had kicked around was to give aeon a soft break.  Cause it to delay attacks against the target as you fight to get through their distortion. If someone else attacks it at the same time it breaks.

"You strike at the distortion around Saesh, your attack slowing as it moves."

Another person also attacks:

"You focus your magics on Saesh, but they are warped in time.

 The distortion around Saesh shatters!"

"The distortion around you shatters!"

That sort of thing.  This balances it for groups by auto killing if they mob, while leaving it otherwise viable in solo.   You could mess around with this (first attack no delay, but then it warps the next attack in X seconds), but it presents a chance to make aeon not an end all affliction.  As Lerad said, once you get aeon it is the only choice you get, if we allow other afflictions like anorexia and such to still mess with curing (or stun, since stuns are hugely spammed right now), you will be stuck most of the fight unable to do much.  Keep in mind things like 3p aeon + stun + blackout skills and passive aeon have to be averaged in.

As to afflictions we can remove.   Remember willpower and endurance are going away, afflictions based on those can go away too: 

-  Each monk guild got special afflictions, most of which are never used elsewhere.  Mangled tongue, trembling, scrambled brains, pinched nerve (6 affs of this name), stomped foot, chest pain, numbs (7ish).

- Crushed chest, punctured lung (also messes with some smoking), broken chest (causes stun, may be kept), and other afflictions targetting end and will can poof. 

Break down some of the above and we can remove some. If needed create a new aff with a similar job, for instance maybe only one pinched nerve but affects only a specific cure. Chest pain is part of an insta so may be left.  Yada yada yada. My 23 cents.

Saesh

Perhaps I should say that we, the admin, are not discussing altering it.

Daganev

What would the effect be , (besides easier group combat kills) if afflictions like , burst gut just became diahrea, vomiting and/or disentary? Or sliced forehead just were tracked as dizziness?
Do we really need these Afflictions which replicate other afflictions to have their own unique database entry?

Xenthos

Saesh said:

FYI there is no discussion being had about reworking aeon. I encourage the continued discussion but I don't want to give you false hope.

I feel that you all should discuss this.  You may not necessarily agree to remove it, but you know what?  Aeon (and similar effects) are the most complicated bits of code for a system writer.  Taking out all of these additional and unnecessary afflictions are swell, but they're not really what makes the whole process more convoluted.  You could leave 10 entirely useless afflictions in, remove aeon, and it would still be easier to put a system together.

With Aeon and its equivalents you essentially need two entirely different systems.  One for general usage, and one that does absolutely nothing at all (not curing anything else, trying anything else, just entering one command at a time while trying to get out of delayed action state).

Aeon should definitely be discussed as part of this overhaul and streamlining.  Lerad's post goes into great detail on why, and I would prefer to see it not just glossed over.

Saesh

What you assume is being "glossed over," is actually an assesment of a basic stipulation we have required since the onset of the overhaul, and emphasized when we altered the plan. If you are asking for us to rewrite classes, it probably will not happen. Which is, fundamentally, what you are asking here but selling it from the side of system design. What that argument fails to do is present the full picture, that there is a great deal more to the complexity of Lusternia's system than player side curing code. Reworking guilds that heavily rely on aeon (researchers, moondancers, cantors, etc) as well as those that have strategies that use aeon but don't "require" it in absolute terms (nihilists, celestines, illuminati, tarot bards, shadowdancers, astrologers, etc.) is a significant amount of work.

 

I can tell you that nothing stated in this thread is news to me. Though I disagree with some of the opinions being posted reagarding the universal effectiveness of aeon, I have long accepted and recognized the complexity of aeon's interaction with the rest of lusternia's mechanics and player side coding. Perhaps I should have stayed out of it entirely, but I did not want to give anyone false hope and want to encourage an honest dialogue on what we can and cannot do. Aeon is significant enought that I felt compelled to address this thread, which I hope is of some meaning to you.

 

Entertain my thoughts for a moment: sleeplocks are viable without aeon, though made easier with admittedly. The fundamental flaw (as I see it) with sleeplocks is that it can be repeated ad infinitum until the random timer that dictates when the target wakes up gives you a luck number. It's simply that easy whether aeon is involved or not, and the addition of aeon does not increase the viability of the strategy, it only decreases the number of attempts required. An illuminati can successfully sleeplock as a hexen, as can nihilists. That is not to say that's the preferred method of killing, but does disprove that sleeplocking is made viable with aeon. Aeon also does not prevent escape, in fact tumbling out while stuck in aeon instead sitting in a group attempting to cure is actually an extremely smart and effective strategy that I know, from experience, can work (pfifth and a handful of other things do not make this a universally effective strategy but it does work). Aeon does not require one to "roll over and die," and is effectively escaped quite often. I say all this not to start an argument regarding the effectiveness of aeon, I'm not going to debate PK perspectives. I say this because I want you to know that I know when I'm being sold a plate of poo under the assumption that I don't know what it is. I know what it is, and you're selling me some poo poo here. You are used to discussing with admin who don't have a living and current understanding of PK to the degree that you all have. I get that. I am also not that admin.

Daganev

I wanted to try to map existing afflictions to the 6 categories mentioned here, but I don't remember all the afflictions well enough to do so.

Can anyone think of afflictions that don't map to one of the 6 categories?

1. Afflictions which use up a healing balance. 
2. Afflictions which make it 'difficult' to automate healing
3. Afflictions which reduce a resource such as health/mana/ego
4. Afflictions which shut down offense, such as stopping weapons, turning ents against the owner etc.
5. Afflictions which remove defenses.

6. Afflictions which disrupt movement.

Akyaevin

Cloudcoil. Burns. Phantomspheres (although they're incurable). They're "prep" afflictions, which do little or nothing on their own but act as a counter for a kill.

EDIT: For a more useful, general answer: omniphobia causes you to gain afflictions, and there are probably others. Relapsing. It's not just "use up a healing balance" but doesn't quite fit into anything else.

Daganev

@Akyaevin‌ would it be fair to describe them as afflictions which act as a minigame?

Maligorn

Lerad said:

Aeon is one of those affs that can eat the dust and I won't miss at all. It provides little strategy to combat - it's an ultra-high priority affliction that pretty much means death if you don't cure out of it, and while it is stuck, offers the victim no recourse other than to try to cure out of it asap. To do anything else would be to fight at a greatly reduced efficiency (you can no longer cure other afflictions at the same time as your attacks), that amounts to signing a death warrant. It is used as a crutch to make other questionable strategies and tactics viable (see: sleeplock) simply because it is so overbearingly effective at shutting down any semblance of strategizing.

When you get hit by aeon, there's only one answer to the question "What do I do now?" and that answer is "Cure out of aeon asap." You can't run, you can't slow the opponent down, you can't attack, you can't throw a pot of curry at your opponent's mom. There is literally no other choice, except to roll over and die. I vote for delete it into oblivion forever.

I remember when Caerlyr was around, and she put Enadonella on strict MOONDANCE WANING duty. I also remember Caerlyr not reliably getting kills. Some way or another, that constant aeon was strategised against, even if it was leaving the room for maybe a second or two.

Akyaevin

Daganev said:

@Akyaevin‌ would it be fair to describe them as afflictions which act as a minigame?

I'm not sure what you mean by that. If you mean "requires completely separate curing handling like aeon", then no - only blackout (and maybe impale/crucify) are really like that. Maybe something else obscure that I've forgotten.

Daganev

Hmm, then I didn't understand the reference. I was talking about those afflictions which do nothing but set up a specific classes instant kill, but otherwise have no negative affect on you.

Lerad

Saesh said:

...

I say this because I want you to know that I know when I'm being sold a plate of poo under the assumption that I don't know what it is. I know what it is, and you're selling me some poo poo here. You are used to discussing with admin who don't have a living and current understanding of PK to the degree that you all have. I get that. I am also not that admin.

I don't like being accused of lying. If the admin don't want any fingers in the pie of aeon-deletion that players are discussing, for whatever reason (coding restrictions, skepticism or whatever else reason), that's fine by me. I have, however, no intention of "selling" any kind of "poo poo", nor am I "used to" try and push a intentionally false or untrue statement across the head of "admin who don't have a living and current understanding of PK". Which, I want to add, is fairly insulting and rude to the admin that came before you who served in the capacity of discussing combat mechanics with players. I'm sure they appreciate being called out on having a less comprehensive grasp of combat than you, and have been tricked by players all the time until you came to save the day, huh.

Since your post has come out and explicitly accused me of overblowing the situation with aeon, and you threw out some of your (poorly thought out, in my opinion) arguments, I'd like to respond, just to be rude back in return, if nothing else.

Saesh said:

...

sleeplocks are viable without aeon, though made easier with admittedly. The fundamental flaw (as I see it) with sleeplocks is that it can be repeated ad infinitum until the random timer that dictates when the target wakes up gives you a luck number. It's simply that easy whether aeon is involved or not, and the addition of aeon does not increase the viability of the strategy, it only decreases the number of attempts required. An illuminati can successfully sleeplock as a hexen, as can nihilists. That is not to say that's the preferred method of killing, but does disprove that sleeplocking is made viable with aeon.

...

First point about aeon and sleeplock. Aeon does not simply "decrease the number of attempts required". Aeon literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) acts as a failsafe to counter waking up from sleep. Like sleep, it works in a similar way: it denies stacked comands until the cure command to get out of the affliction succeeds, and then you can go back to curing multiple afflictions and attacking at the same time. Like aeon, sleep also delays the actual cure going through, though the time taken to wake up is more variable than the time taken for your aeon-cure command to go through.

Using aeon makes sure that the victim will have to get out of a second cure-denial, delayed command affliction AFTER waking up from sleep. Contrary to your opinion, this is extremely important for sleeplocks, because even without metawake, sleeplock is fairly difficult to stick even after it has succeeded in putting the enemy into the enter wake command, get sleeped after you wake loop. The moment there is even a single second of window where you are awake, insomnia can be put up, kafe maybe, and possibly even metawake. Aeon is integral in maintaining a sleeplock, because without it, there is almost no way to keep a target asleep long enough to kill. Dreamweavers excluded, of course, because dreamweavers can't kill with their sleep tactic period, snigger.

Moondancers are the best wiccan-sleeplockers, just ask them about their success rate with sleeplocks when you take away aeon. The answer is near to zero. Sleeplocks are hardly viable without aeon. It takes a few ticks of the entourage to drop mana. During which time the MD has to continually keep aeon AND sleeplock. Lacking either of the two components makes this "cheesy" tactic not just less reliable, but more of a potshot in the dark.

Saesh said:

Aeon also does not prevent escape, in fact tumbling out while stuck in aeon instead sitting in a group attempting to cure is actually an extremely smart and effective strategy that I know, from experience, can work (pfifth and a handful of other things do not make this a universally effective strategy but it does work). Aeon does not require one to "roll over and die," and is effectively escaped quite often.

Second point about aeon and escape. Aeon is the number one way to prevent escapes, because you can't cure while you are escaping. That means you continue to have aeon on you as well as any other affliciton the aeoner hits you with in the mean time. You can tumble out, sure, but in a 1v1 (no secondary bard in the room pfifthing you in a 1v1, so it's the most "viable" escape situation from aeon using tumble) it's a simple matter to walk into the tumble room, and continue to afflict/upkeep aeon, whichever applies best to the aeoner's "strategy", if you can call it that. During which time, the aeoner has no need to worry about his afflictions (including aeon) being cured.

Aeon is not choke, it is not room-based. Tumbling out of aeon serves no actual purpose in a 1v1, beyond delaying that first command to sip phlegmatic by an additional second. During which time you may well get either sleeped or anorexia'd or throat-locked, depending on who you're facing, and then, you'll have to enter TWO commands to get out of aeon (assuming you pre-rift, which most combatants do, of course). So you tumble out, good for you. And then what? You still have to get out of aeon asap. Nothing has changed - your only choice is still to cure out of aeon first, hopefully before your opponent waltzes into the room you tumbled into (lol) and continues hitting you in the face.

Tumbling is a wonderful ability - it is a no-counter, delayed movement ability. It's most important effect is to deny enemy momentum (not monk momentum, I'm talking about affliction based momentum in combat, like wound building, aff stacking etc) because they're forced to react to your movement instead of just continue mashing their attack aliases. Against seasoned combatants, it is much less effective, because it announces your movement direction, which means you can't really put any distance between you and the opponent before he's lying on top of you again. The opponent will just wait for balance, walk and immediately attack - you've delayed his momentum by nothing except for the latency of an additional directional command. Passive based classes will suffer a bit more, if your tumble just happens to take you out of the room right before the passives tick. Not applicable for melds, of course, since those are adjacent-room, but you might catch an important breather against entourages or bardsongs. Against monks or warriors, there is little to no effect unless they somehow missed the tumble message and start to wander around the area in random directions looking for you.

When you're aeoned, all the less effect it has. No matter what way you slice the apple, it is still far more efficient to cure out of aeon FIRST, and then tumble AND CURE other afflictions at the same time as you tumble. There is simply no escaping the conclusion of "cure out of aeon first" when you're dealing with that affliction. The situations where tumbling away is more of a advantage is limited to groups when you have multiple people hitting you... and that's exactly when aeon's most egregrious, and most horrendous exploits and overbearingness comes to the fore.

Group combat and aeon is, barring pits, the single most devastating combination in lusternian group combat. The command denial of aeon is made exponentially more effective the more people you have attacking you at the same time. In that situation, and in that situation only, tumbling out of the room to try and lessen even one combatant smashing in your face, is more efficient. However, it is precisely in that situation that aeon showcases its worst aspects - most people die before even their tumble command goes through, simply because of the sheer overbearing shut-down capability of aeon. Unlike sleep, aeon is protected only by quicksilver, and there is no metawake/kafe equivalent to speed you out of aeon, and there is no cleanse equivalent for your allies to save you the way they can do so for sap. Once you get speed-stripped, which incidentally, can be done easily by any warrior or monk, you have to wait for the defense to become active again - quicksilver is not instant like insomnia either. All of these factors, together with the command denial, conspire to make it the number one go-to ability in group combat. It shuts down a combatant so fast, you don't even have time to shout "Karlach, save me!" before you're dead. Good luck tumbling out of that.

Elanorwen

Daganev said:

Hmm, then I didn't understand the reference. I was talking about those afflictions which do nothing but set up a specific classes instant kill, but otherwise have no negative affect effect on you.

Like cloudcoils, phantomspheres and burn levels (Although burn levels do increase the damage of some Pyro abilities and the ever popular TK pyre too)

That said, 1:1 cloudcoils aren't much use beyond an attempt to pressure herb balance... which is a waste of time for a mage unless you're pressuring herb balance with something else to try and stack cloud coils (A very much hit and miss tactic)

Lerad

Maligorn said:

I remember when Caerlyr was around, and she put Enadonella on strict MOONDANCE WANING duty. I also remember Caerlyr not reliably getting kills. Some way or another, that constant aeon was strategised against, even if it was leaving the room for maybe a second or two.

Caerlyr was not a very good combatant.

Nayl

Saesh said:

Stuff and Things

I'd just like to point out, that @Saesh (from my reading of this) is not trying to pull your pants down, and embarrass you with what you don't know, or how you've presented your argument, but is instead attempting to illuminate the flip-side of the coin to which you are gambling with. 

@Lerad & @Xenthos - I'd like to say that I, for one, am extremely glad that we have someone who's willing to explain not just the yes or no, but the reasoning, and then give us a definitive answer about whatever subject we're discussing in terms of the overhaul. 

I for one am glad that @Saesh is on the case, and helping us help @Estarra work through this potential minefield that we've begun to explore.

EDIT: Grammarses fixeringed.

Saesh

Lerad said:

Saesh said:

...

I say this because I want you to know that I know when I'm being sold a plate of poo under the assumption that I don't know what it is. I know what it is, and you're selling me some poo poo here. You are used to discussing with admin who don't have a living and current understanding of PK to the degree that you all have. I get that. I am also not that admin.

I don't like being accused of lying. If the admin don't want any fingers in the pie of aeon-deletion that players are discussing, for whatever reason (coding restrictions, skepticism or whatever else reason), that's fine by me. I have, however, no intention of "selling" any kind of "poo poo", nor am I "used to" try and push a intentionally false or untrue statement across the head of "admin who don't have a living and current understanding of PK". Which, I want to add, is fairly insulting and rude to the admin that came before you who served in the capacity of discussing combat mechanics with players. I'm sure they appreciate being called out on having a less comprehensive grasp of combat than you, and have been tricked by players all the time until you came to save the day, huh.

Since your post has come out and explicitly accused me of overblowing the situation with aeon, and you threw out some of your (poorly thought out, in my opinion) arguments, I'd like to respond, just to be rude back in return, if nothing else.

Saesh said:

...

sleeplocks are viable without aeon, though made easier with admittedly. The fundamental flaw (as I see it) with sleeplocks is that it can be repeated ad infinitum until the random timer that dictates when the target wakes up gives you a luck number. It's simply that easy whether aeon is involved or not, and the addition of aeon does not increase the viability of the strategy, it only decreases the number of attempts required. An illuminati can successfully sleeplock as a hexen, as can nihilists. That is not to say that's the preferred method of killing, but does disprove that sleeplocking is made viable with aeon.

...

First point about aeon and sleeplock. Aeon does not simply "decrease the number of attempts required". Aeon literally (yes, literally, not figuratively) acts as a failsafe to counter waking up from sleep. Like sleep, it works in a similar way: it denies stacked comands until the cure command to get out of the affliction succeeds, and then you can go back to curing multiple afflictions and attacking at the same time. Like aeon, sleep also delays the actual cure going through, though the time taken to wake up is more variable than the time taken for your aeon-cure command to go through.

Using aeon makes sure that the victim will have to get out of a second cure-denial, delayed command affliction AFTER waking up from sleep. Contrary to your opinion, this is extremely important for sleeplocks, because even without metawake, sleeplock is fairly difficult to stick even after it has succeeded in putting the enemy into the enter wake command, get sleeped after you wake loop. The moment there is even a single second of window where you are awake, insomnia can be put up, kafe maybe, and possibly even metawake. Aeon is integral in maintaining a sleeplock, because without it, there is almost no way to keep a target asleep long enough to kill. Dreamweavers excluded, of course, because dreamweavers can't kill with their sleep tactic period, snigger.

Moondancers are the best wiccan-sleeplockers, just ask them about their success rate with sleeplocks when you take away aeon. The answer is near to zero. Sleeplocks are hardly viable without aeon. It takes a few ticks of the entourage to drop mana. During which time the MD has to continually keep aeon AND sleeplock. Lacking either of the two components makes this "cheesy" tactic not just less reliable, but more of a potshot in the dark.

Saesh said:

Aeon also does not prevent escape, in fact tumbling out while stuck in aeon instead sitting in a group attempting to cure is actually an extremely smart and effective strategy that I know, from experience, can work (pfifth and a handful of other things do not make this a universally effective strategy but it does work). Aeon does not require one to "roll over and die," and is effectively escaped quite often.

Second point about aeon and escape. Aeon is the number one way to prevent escapes, because you can't cure while you are escaping. That means you continue to have aeon on you as well as any other affliciton the aeoner hits you with in the mean time. You can tumble out, sure, but in a 1v1 (no secondary bard in the room pfifthing you in a 1v1, so it's the most "viable" escape situation from aeon using tumble) it's a simple matter to walk into the tumble room, and continue to afflict/upkeep aeon, whichever applies best to the aeoner's "strategy", if you can call it that. During which time, the aeoner has no need to worry about his afflictions (including aeon) being cured.

Aeon is not choke, it is not room-based. Tumbling out of aeon serves no actual purpose in a 1v1, beyond delaying that first command to sip phlegmatic by an additional second. During which time you may well get either sleeped or anorexia'd or throat-locked, depending on who you're facing, and then, you'll have to enter TWO commands to get out of aeon (assuming you pre-rift, which most combatants do, of course). So you tumble out, good for you. And then what? You still have to get out of aeon asap. Nothing has changed - your only choice is still to cure out of aeon first, hopefully before your opponent waltzes into the room you tumbled into (lol) and continues hitting you in the face.

Tumbling is a wonderful ability - it is a no-counter, delayed movement ability. It's most important effect is to deny enemy momentum (not monk momentum, I'm talking about affliction based momentum in combat, like wound building, aff stacking etc) because they're forced to react to your movement instead of just continue mashing their attack aliases. Against seasoned combatants, it is much less effective, because it announces your movement direction, which means you can't really put any distance between you and the opponent before he's lying on top of you again. The opponent will just wait for balance, walk and immediately attack - you've delayed his momentum by nothing except for the latency of an additional directional command. Passive based classes will suffer a bit more, if your tumble just happens to take you out of the room right before the passives tick. Not applicable for melds, of course, since those are adjacent-room, but you might catch an important breather against entourages or bardsongs. Against monks or warriors, there is little to no effect unless they somehow missed the tumble message and start to wander around the area in random directions looking for you.

When you're aeoned, all the less effect it has. No matter what way you slice the apple, it is still far more efficient to cure out of aeon FIRST, and then tumble AND CURE other afflictions at the same time as you tumble. There is simply no escaping the conclusion of "cure out of aeon first" when you're dealing with that affliction. The situations where tumbling away is more of a advantage is limited to groups when you have multiple people hitting you... and that's exactly when aeon's most egregrious, and most horrendous exploits and overbearingness comes to the fore.

Group combat and aeon is, barring pits, the single most devastating combination in lusternian group combat. The command denial of aeon is made exponentially more effective the more people you have attacking you at the same time. In that situation, and in that situation only, tumbling out of the room to try and lessen even one combatant smashing in your face, is more efficient. However, it is precisely in that situation that aeon showcases its worst aspects - most people die before even their tumble command goes through, simply because of the sheer overbearing shut-down capability of aeon. Unlike sleep, aeon is protected only by quicksilver, and there is no metawake/kafe equivalent to speed you out of aeon, and there is no cleanse equivalent for your allies to save you the way they can do so for sap. Once you get speed-stripped, which incidentally, can be done easily by any warrior or monk, you have to wait for the defense to become active again - quicksilver is not instant like insomnia either. All of these factors, together with the command denial, conspire to make it the number one go-to ability in group combat. It shuts down a combatant so fast, you don't even have time to shout "Karlach, save me!" before you're dead. Good luck tumbling out of that.

Right, so we're putting words in my mouth here.  If my comments were taken as rude, I apologize, such was not my intent. Perhaps my phrasing was inartful.

 As for the admin's feelings, you needn't worry, they are not offended. My statement was simply a reiteration of what they already know and acknowledge (rather openly to players in the past). They do not have a living understanding of PK to the extent the players currently involved in day to day PK do. Just as players lack the understanding of events and mechanics behind the scenes. It's simply the world the admin live in, we're seperate and apart from players and PK. Mysrai and Ieptix are not going to be joining your wargames any time soon. It's the reason, quite literally, why I am here. I offered this so that when I say a sleeplock is viable without aeon, from wiccan to illuminati, that you can counter aeon with tumbling before curing depending on the circumstance, that you would know I am not saying it because it's my "opinion." It's something I know to be true based on first hand experience and observation, not just something I think. Whether you accept/agree is what it is, but I tell you my perspective so that, at least, you will know what I am basing my decision making on. A little transparency, if you will, rather than a flat out no...for whatever that is worth! We can certainly just say "no," if that is the preferable alternative.

Beyond that, I didn't read much further as I'm here to help and engage in a healthy dialogue (I did notice you spoke about tumbling in 1v1 scenarios when my comment explicitly stated "groups.") I am not here to be rude to players (intentionally anyways).

Malayn

There is no such thing as a proper tumble in a group.  You want to take into account the effect of a group, ask many people what it is like fighting against tarotists, you will be lusted before you move, and you will be empressed as soon as you leave.  If you did not hit a pit or something, or get put to sleep (which was stopping tumble last I knew if you were asleep at the time), and if you weren't stunned when you tried to go for the tumble..... you will likely still get pulled back in.  I made a habit of walking in front of people and gusting them back into the room. This is why I would actually prep mislead in stealth.

I am calling no one liars, and I am calling no one misinformed.

The complexity of combat means there is no simple solution.  Aeon is a crutch of multiple skillsets, and this also means we have an issue where curing is shut down against many people. Nearly 40% of the game can aeon if you include all tarotists.  Two of those aeons come with built in stuns.   Consider new skillsets as well, you get hit with a climax from dramaturgy inside aeon+stun you are probably going to die before you ever cure out. 

This is not meant as disrespect, this is meant purely for considerations sake @Saesh.  What guilds are you truly familiar with? "I fought them all" does not constitute familiarity. Symphonium and Cantors for instance are better played as guardians when fighting many times because it means they can lock things. A moondancer working with allies can aeon+sleeplock and stall for about 10 seconds with succumb and toad. As combat becomes larger we assume faster deaths, not fights, deaths. Destruction and aeon tend to be the center of combat and have been for some time. 

I do not actually expect an answer, and I am not fishing for who you were/are, as everyone has their special areas of skill and expertise. Even the lustypedia of combat (me ) has areas of grey on knowledge.

@Lerad:  Behave, don't make me get the spray bottle. Say you are sorry and give Saesh a hug.

I prefer to focus on the question "What does this affliction contribute" and for aeon the only answers are "mandatory curing" or "spammable support".... and this is coming as a tarotist!

Lerad

Saesh said:

...
I offered this so that when I say a sleeplock is viable without aeon, from wiccan to illuminati, that you can counter aeon with tumbling before curing depending on the circumstance, that you would know I am not saying it because it's my "opinion." It's something I know to be true based on first hand experience and observation, not just something I think. Whether you accept/agree is what it is, but I tell you my perspective so that, at least, you will know what I am basing my decision making on.
...

Just wanted to note, the bolded sentence is actually wrong. Just like what I argue for in my posts are my opinion, based on my firsthand experience and my observations, so too are your arguments (based on your experience and observations) "opinion". These statements that we have been making, that "sleeplock is viable without aeon", or my "sleeplock is hardly viable without aeon", are both opinions. They are not facts. If you're telling me aeon lasts for X seconds to Y seconds due to A formula in B code, then yes, that is fact. That's not the case here. Your statements are no more set in stone than are mine. Coming from an admin does not make opinions magically become facts, whether or not the admin has a "living understanding of PK to the extent the players currently involved in day to day PK do".

For this reason, it's fine if you don't want to read my posts. I'm not getting my tail feathers in a huff over anything, like I said, if the admin aren't considering aeon changes at this point in time, that's the admin's call. I'm not here to dictate what the admin can or should do. Explanations are appreciated, of course, they always are. If you want to join in a discussion and offer explanations beyond a flat "no", everyone would certainly be very happy, me included. Just don't be surprised when I react to statements like "I know when I'm being sold a plate of poo", because of all the people I am interested in bullshitting, a game's admin ranks somewhere near the very bottom of my list. I couldn't care enough about you or the game to try and trick you about anything.

Thoros

Aeon itself is not a problem. I've cured out of slitthroat+senso aeonlocks many times in group combat (and escaped), as well as died to it about the same amount of times.

The problem is that there are too many sources of aeon right now.

Aeon should be limited. Restricted. It should be severely limited, really, to the point where when an opposition knows that the enemies have certain combatants who can cast aeon, they will probably be their first target (somewhere up there in target order near the melder) I know that's what we do right now as part of our combat targeting, we kill melders first, then aeon afflicters, etc.

I feel aeon should be restricted to only the tarot skillset, since it is an IRE original from the Tarot skillset. But this would leave out wiccans. Wiccans can keep their aeon - move it to Wicca though, and out of Moon, so that it's not in the hands of Seren warriors (and same with Night - Shadowtwist).

But then that still leaves the problem that aeon runs rampant amongst the bard class as well. Would be able to have bards not have access to Aeon in Tarot, and instead give them a new bard-only tarot skill that would not be available to others with Tarot who aren't bards. Or, make it easy, just remove aeon from bards period with no replacement.

Stun and blackout are far too rampant in Lusternia too but this isn't a stun/blackout thread...

Saesh

They are both perspectives, but since a sleep lock with and without aeon is a testable experiment, it truthfully ceases being a debate of opinions. It either can or it cannot be attained with without aeon. It has been demonstrated to me and replicated by me that it is attainable without aeon, which is why I am not stating it is my opinion. At some point I simply have to accept the reality I'm observing. A moon dancer uses hexes to sleep lock and was able to secure a kill without wane before the target was able to wake up. Is this happening: check yes or no, then I move on. Incidentally, this same evidence is something I believe demonstrates that sleep locks should be looked at. It has nothing to do with me being an admin. Unfortunately, such a comment indicates a sour turn of the tone in this conversation. I apologize again if I have distracted or offended! I encourage this discussion to continue because I think it is an important one to have, even if we cannot implement your ideas immediately.

Daganev

It's not an aeon thread either
It's supposed to be a thread about how few afflluctions can we get and still have combat be interesting.

To take another extreme approach, if we boiled combat down to rock paper scissors lizard Spock, would that be enough?