The Gods aren't subjective entities, you can't be qualified as a 'Lusternian God' just because people think you are. The Elder Gods are objectively different from mortals in terms of scale within the context of Lusternia, even if demimortals and gods share the same essential traits and fundamental underpinnings.
The Greek or DnD gods do not represent perfection, their point is that they are flawed in all the same ways as mortals - often more so. The entire classical (popular) Olympian narritive is a story of the worst of mankind played out in the stars. Jealousy, lust, anger, murder, lying, stealing, cheating, you name it - the gods get down and dirty just like the rest of us. The difference being that when they fight, lightning flashes in the sky and the sun falls out of the sky. They have the same issues, but everything is turned up to 11 because they are more powerful.
I'm not offended, I just honestly couldn't figure out what you were disagreeing with. I think that we're answering different questions, though: I agree that you can't just 'become' a Lusternia god, and that they are different from mortals, but I was responding to the question "what traits are necessary for one to be considered a god." I assumed from other posts that most people seemed to think that the ability to create life was a requirement to be a god.
As for the second, yes and no. The Greek/Dnd gods were never perfect in every way, and that's not what I meant. Within their own domains(love, water, crafts, war, forging, magic) they represented mortal perfection. If you were a warrior, you'd worship Aries. If you were a mage, you'd probably worship Mystra(or whatever it is now). Overall, the gods are flawed, but within a particular specialty, they're very skilled. If that happens to be the skill that you most admire as a mortal follower, then your chosen deity would be perceived as perfect. (Or at least, you'd pretend they were)
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
(but he won't, because he needs you as much as you need him)
It's this that leads me to my way of thinking. They need us for power, and we need them for power. I'm more inclined towards partnership than kowtow...
Except, the Twelve Traitors don't mind killing you dead for not kowtowing. Even if, for some reason, we all decided to boycott Fain or something, he'd continue to exist (and likely turn to the dark side of the dark side of Lusternia (particularly because he isn't trapped or bound like the other Soulless)). Moreover, they likely have at least some way of generating their own power instead of relying on mortals for their essence. You could even see it as placating what could be volatile and extremely dangerous people.
That's still not really worship.. There are plenty of players that wouldn't mind killing you dead for the same, and who have the ability to do so - avoiding them squashing you doesn't qualify as 'worship', or even 'respect', except a healthy respect for your own skin.
Well, playing the devil's advocate here, I think you could worship a god in the same sense you can worship someone you regard as a leader or hero. The gods are incredibly powerful and capable of great feats and each god was his or her own vision. Perhaps they manage to convince you into following a course and you feel drawn to them to lead and guide you along that path. To a certain extent when some people accept someone to be more powerful, intelligent and charismatic they trust them completely enough to call all the shots and trust their judgement over their own - the extent to which in this case is further than most typical cases of accepted leadership.
It's more of a character choice. Is your character one who is likely to worship a god, or are they one who is more likely to remain independent and question their judgement. There's arguments for both that can come up IG and it also depends on the god character, their alignment and the alignment of the character.
Ultimately, as Xenthos and others have already made a good point of, there's lots of reasons to respect certain Elder Gods (depending on your lusternian world view and how they fit into it) but whether or not you'd follow into worshipping them depends on the tendencies and dispositions of your character.
If you want my IC (and partially OOC) feelings about Fain, try reading this.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Turning back towards the main issue. Why should you worship them?
I worshipped Fain for the reasons found in my last post. I worship Isune on Entrias for a number of reasons, but mostly because she's an amazing conversationalist and gives us some really good RP. As an atheist IRL, it's odd that I like having a divine to worship, but I wouldn't have it any other way. It's a mixture of the mystique of someone watching you coupled with the fact that they really -are- fallible and have their own lives. They're like us, but with a bit more power.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Out of curiosity, what traits do you think are necessary for one to be considered a god?
It's an interesting question. I suppose on some level it's a more instinctive/feeling thing.
The Discworld gods are very interesting for example, they feel like gods. Their entire existence is based on the fact that people believe that they exist and so you have all manner of gods based on things that people decided to worship. In the MUD Pishe is the goddess of slight showers for example. Though this also leads to the interesting example of Death, who exists similarly as an anthropomorphic personification of Death but is not considered a god. (Time is another example).
I suppose the differentiation there is that people believe that the gods can be bargained with to some degree, while concepts like Death and Time cannot. Though the creation of Hat, the vulture headed god of unexpected guests would certainly be interesting. (perhaps the patron god of party planners praying that randoms will turn up to make things awesome?)
In the Witches of Eileanan, there is Ea who from memory is perhaps similar to the concept of a single god with many faces, she is considered to be the one who controls fate, you pray to her for assistance in magical workings and the like. Acts are done in her name, blessings are beseeched from her. She never actually appears in the series and nothing necessarily happens to prove that she exists, but the majority of the humans in the series firmly believe that she exists.
In MKO, it seems that gods are similarly based around aspects of creation that they are responsible for and in turn potentially have the capacity to influence their domains. So it makes sense to say... pray to Silban for a good harvest, and then to be thankful to her when it is or fearful of what you've done wrong if it isn't.
I suppose a common thread here is the requirement of faith and belief. While the gods may or may not exist without mortals, there is the lack of concrete knowledge in what they actually are responsible for in your life. You pray to them in the hopes that they will help you in their domain, rituals are performed to attract their favour or appease them.
These actions form part of the religion around gods and are in many ways form the primary method of communication with them. A god physically manifesting is something that is rare, mortals are struck with awe and fear by the magnitude of such an event.
I don't particularly feel that I would really pray to the Elders for this sort of thing.
Elostian was certainly powerful, arguably more powerful than your default elder. He was wise and commanded great powers. But I wouldn't pray to him for guidance on a subject, I'd just walk up to a shrine and ask him, or merely talk about it until he just turned up and joined the conversation. Rituals seemed to be things that he performed to focus his own power and possibly commune with the very fabric of reality, not necessarily things that people performed to communicate with him.
If I were to write a harvest ritual, I wouldn't be asking the elders for help, it would be the fae or nature. If there was a "harvest" themed elder, I feel that i'd be more likely to go and ask them for advice then ask them to really do anything about it.
Again, I just feel that the Elders fit more in the lines of the Asgard from Too Human, the Thor movies, or Stargate. Or the First Civilisation of Assassins Creed. To some degree comparisons to the Ancients and Ori of Stargate or the Q of Star Trek might be valid, though I could see arguments that the Elders are relatively less powerful and are more accessible than these races.
It's not a bad comparison. These characters are amazing and impressive, it was one of the things that drew people to Tears of Polaris, that their admin characters would not be gods but a race of powerful beings calling on these comparisons, and with the Ancient/Ori comparison you have the ability to create a member of the "Elder" race that has learned to draw on mortal faith for personal power while other members find other ways to sustain themselves and grow.
Another comparison that occurred to me is actually Dynara and Magnora. They are Gods in my mind, they are Creation and Destruction. And they are so tightly connected to these forces of Lusternia that when they left it, the ability for true creation and destruction went with them.
The same cannot be said for the Elders, they've died in the hundreds if not thousands, what is lost is their individual presence but that is all (that's not to say that this is not sad)
With their connection to the forces of nature, the Awakened spirits, at the least, possess a resemblance to Dynara and Magnora in that should they be harmed or destroyed the aspect of the world that they represent would be affected.
Such as how the Sun physically changed when the elixir was used on the spirit of the Sun, and the statements that should Sun's awakening be reversed, the physical sun might still exist but at the same time it would be dead. I believe somewhere along the line it was mentioned that killing lesser fae would similarly kill the aspects of nature that they are awakened from. For plants and the like this seems likely to be a direct, death equals death, though for other things like pools it seems likely to be a bit more ambigious, perhaps the pool slowly becomes stagnant and incapable of supporting life?
As my argument points out, I find them no different than you or me, except they have superior powers. Such as I could never respect Isune (as cool as the person may be) because I cannot support a pacifist or someone who is peaceful.
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
I think it is also important to point out that Elder Gods transcend the world in a way that mortals don't. For example, Elder Gods can leave the world and enter the Void, survive it, and return. Mortals can't do that. So maybe it is a power thing--the Elder Gods are incredibly powerful with a much much higher control over the First World than mortals ever could.
There is a fundamental difference of existence. Elder Gods were grown in divine creches, and when they matured enough, left the creches. They were "the" lifeform created by Dynara, meant to wield power and control over the World. We mortals are just pieces of Elders--the Elders are the whole package as it was meant to be. We can't leave our world, and most of the creation/control we exert on our world has been forced or tricked, expending a great deal of power for a tiny result compared to what the Elders can do with ease.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Something that no one has touched on that I really saw, and Lavinya feels very strongly about, is the wisdom and intellect of the Divine. Lavinya worships Morgfyre in particular for many reasons, such as believing in His teachings and ways, respect and awe for (as she puts it) doing what was needed to be done (forbidden elixir). But she has a healthy...well respect is I suppose the right word for all of the Divine. Not because she agrees with their teachings, in fact she thinks some of them are downright idiotic (A living breathing viscanti doesn't exactly support being hated for the crime of existing *cough*Eventru*cough*), but there is still a measure of respect for these beings that are so much greater than mortals. Greater, in that while our oldest have lived to be a few hundred years, the divine have existed for many, many aeons longer. Living for that length of time has to grant a measure of wisdom and perspective that we just don't have. What is a hundred years to us is but a drop in the bucket to them. What we create is like a child's crayon drawing next to the wonders they have shaped and created in the same world. An individual mortal is just the tiniest fragment without even the memory (anymore) of the one, single whole they came from.
That isn't to say that the divine aren't flawed in many ways, they have their own petty fueds and squabbles and jealousies. Lavinya has often thought about the arrogance of mortals, how they get so caught up in their own politics between cities, which in the light of eternity are so...insignificant. How they put their own wisdom and comparatively tiny perspectives as far greater than the knowledge of a being that existed before the Soulless were even a known threat. If we are the drop in the bucket, They are the ocean.
Lavinya struggles to comprehend how anyone could consider themselves greater, except for blind pride and arrogance. OOCly we know these people are just players like us, but IC, they shaped the universe, and without them, WE (meaning shards) would not even exist. Does the clay consider itself superior to it's sculptor? What would it be if the artist had not drawn the clay from the earth and shaped and moulded it? This is how Lavinya thinks, anyway. She gives her devotion to the one she believes to be the greatest - not just the guy that will eat you, but the one with the courage to do even that which was risky and amoral for the benefit of all, the one that was considered to be the greatest strategist of the warriors, the one that is strong and wise and cunning. Whose mind far exceeds her own, tiny, struggling to comprehend mortal one. And it's why she holds a measure of respect for all of the divine. Why she actively sought Zvoltz' wisdom and insight, for example, why she admires Isune's creativity, Raezon's knowledge, Fain's strength and leadership (even when it's TOUGH). Why, even though the likes of Eventru and Mysrai consider her an abomination for the accident of her birth as viscanti, she still has (very begrudging) respect for WHAT they are, if not who.
I'm probably rambling. But that's my IC perspective.
For some reason, the more recent comments have made me consider the relationship between humans and animals.
Especially when you consider domestic animals.
We control their lives.
Often their ability to reproduce and their mate when they do so are entirely our choice. To the point of choosing mates that would produce desired offspring for us.
Countless animals live until we demand that they die for us. Either as food, in events like horse races, or in some other service to humans (such as steeds in historic battle). At times, the death of an animal is assured when they no longer serve another purpose to humanity.
More positively we're also capable of providing healing to them. Injuries and infections that would otherwise lead to their deaths can sometimes be cured by humans.
We feed them and keep them safe from the otherwise hostile world. Their lives potentially lengthened through our care, though in return house pets often provide devotion and attention to their owners. But still, if a human lives to say around eighty their life is something like six times the length of the average life of say a dog or a cat.
I suppose my point here is that, if you were to look at humanity through that point of view, would these animals consider us to be gods?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I think you have it right that the difference between gods and mortals is simply a matter of power, but that doesn't just equate to might - it's the capacity for impact. The gods can do things that mortals cannot, thus they shape the world that we merely inhabit. Unlike mortals, gods can achieve things that are truly worthy of worship. As characters they represent ideals that we aspire to emulate, either in aspect, or as a whole. What I get out of being in an order most of all is a baseline for my role-play.
I think that you (@Munsia) are missing out if you do not take the time to delve further into the game lore or any of the gods' specific tenets or histories. It's all part of a story that you are residing in. That depth is part of the draw, isn't it?
To explain my personal views on one particular god, and since you brought her up... I'm surprised to hear that anyone could not respect Isune. Even when I was in Glomdoring and she was stationed in Celest, I had to acknowledge her contributions and sacrifices as they applied to me. Now that I know her better, I'll tell you first of all that she's not a pacifist. She's also not a 'weak' character, nor is she the soft option. She's a being who has every reason to be bitter, fearful, vengeful, and angry, but she chose - and repeatedly chooses - not to be. From my perspective, this makes her a much stronger god-character than capricious others who make more selfish choices and have far less self-command.
Isune could have gone to the dark side (literally), there was even an event about this! She is a character who has given everything she could give on multiple occasions. Instead of allowing all of these things to ruin her, she fosters art and continues to create beauty. She shows compassion to all those who deserve it - which is not the same as everyone. She is good - which is not the same as light.
These are things that my character can directly relate to. I look up to Isune. My perception of her is probably similar to others in her order, but in the finer points it is unique to me. It's not unique in itself, however. I felt much the same about Viravain when I played in Glomdoring. She embodied everything that I held dear, and I held it dear in part because she embodied it.
Although I am really glad to have had 2 super awesome patronesses who both shaped and supported my role-play, I don't really consider myself lucky - because this is not just some fluke. All the gods are like this. Once you get past the broad strokes, every one of the gods can suit every type of player. The teachings, the tenets, the allegories, and the allusions are all vague enough that they can fit almost everyone. You just need to pick one and start applying this stuff to yourself.
In my experience, gods appreciate when people take the time to do this. It must surely be gratifying for them to have players really embrace these words and ideas that they thought up; to bring them to life and carry them in new directions. Players in their turn must be grateful to have this guidance, and the reassurance that comes with it. This is where the rewarding personal relationships come into play, to whatever degree. They grow from this mutual respect.
Players can't fill these roles. Players are ephemeral. They change. They change their minds, their allegiances, they move on, they grow up. Gods are canon - constant, paradigm. Barring cataclysmic events and regardless of who is playing them currently, they will always be what they always were. This is their role - they serve a loftier purpose than regular players.
If my convoluted account of the many benefits has failed to sway you, then the short answer is that you should worship the gods because that's what they're for.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Depth isn't always part of the allure @Talan , I'd like to point out this is a game...I play many....MANY games
Agree. I have nfi what's going on here anymore... but you did ask to be swayed in this general direction. Taking up with gods is a step toward immersion. If you do not want that, feel free to continue ignoring them!
Lore doesn't interest me in any game I play, and as I said, I play many games. I skip cutscenes in 90% of them.
My immersion comes from the here and now, what's going on and how things are happen to my character. I have to say learning about the past doesn't affect it.
The topic is why would you bother WORSHIPPING a Divine. (I think, I'm confused anymore)
We're also looking into the level of zeal actual religious intent, look towards christianity (maybe Catholicism on zealous actions) many of what you see IG. If you don't believe a god is worship-worthy, you're pretty much put on the spot.
I guess I am the confused one... I thought I gave several reasons why it's worthwhile,
but I guess you're asking after their inherent merit? I gave that
answer as well - it's their assigned role in the game.
As for the reason why people bother - people enjoy it. They like feeling special when a god pays attention to them, or else they just like this type of role-play.
P.S. Not being zealous in a hyper-religious environment can be great role-play in itself. Maybe someone will witch-hunt you and burn you alive at a stake!
P.S. Not being zealous in a hyper-religious environment can be great role-play in itself. Maybe someone will witch-hunt you and burn you alive at a stake!
We all know the reaction Munsy gives in game to things like that.
Comments
There is a fundamental difference of existence. Elder Gods were grown in divine creches, and when they matured enough, left the creches. They were "the" lifeform created by Dynara, meant to wield power and control over the World. We mortals are just pieces of Elders--the Elders are the whole package as it was meant to be. We can't leave our world, and most of the creation/control we exert on our world has been forced or tricked, expending a great deal of power for a tiny result compared to what the Elders can do with ease.
That isn't to say that the divine aren't flawed in many ways, they have their own petty fueds and squabbles and jealousies. Lavinya has often thought about the arrogance of mortals, how they get so caught up in their own politics between cities, which in the light of eternity are so...insignificant. How they put their own wisdom and comparatively tiny perspectives as far greater than the knowledge of a being that existed before the Soulless were even a known threat. If we are the drop in the bucket, They are the ocean.
Lavinya struggles to comprehend how anyone could consider themselves greater, except for blind pride and arrogance. OOCly we know these people are just players like us, but IC, they shaped the universe, and without them, WE (meaning shards) would not even exist. Does the clay consider itself superior to it's sculptor? What would it be if the artist had not drawn the clay from the earth and shaped and moulded it? This is how Lavinya thinks, anyway. She gives her devotion to the one she believes to be the greatest - not just the guy that will eat you, but the one with the courage to do even that which was risky and amoral for the benefit of all, the one that was considered to be the greatest strategist of the warriors, the one that is strong and wise and cunning. Whose mind far exceeds her own, tiny, struggling to comprehend mortal one. And it's why she holds a measure of respect for all of the divine. Why she actively sought Zvoltz' wisdom and insight, for example, why she admires Isune's creativity, Raezon's knowledge, Fain's strength and leadership (even when it's TOUGH). Why, even though the likes of Eventru and Mysrai consider her an abomination for the accident of her birth as viscanti, she still has (very begrudging) respect for WHAT they are, if not who.
I'm probably rambling. But that's my IC perspective.
Dog: These people feed me, shelter me and love me … they must be God
Cat: These people feed me, shelter me and love me… I must be God
I think that you (@Munsia) are missing out if you do not take the time to delve further into the game lore or any of the gods' specific tenets or histories. It's all part of a story that you are residing in. That depth is part of the draw, isn't it?
To explain my personal views on one particular god, and since you brought her up... I'm surprised to hear that anyone could not respect Isune. Even when I was in Glomdoring and she was stationed in Celest, I had to acknowledge her contributions and sacrifices as they applied to me. Now that I know her better, I'll tell you first of all that she's not a pacifist. She's also not a 'weak' character, nor is she the soft option. She's a being who has every reason to be bitter, fearful, vengeful, and angry, but she chose - and repeatedly chooses - not to be. From my perspective, this makes her a much stronger god-character than capricious others who make more selfish choices and have far less self-command.
Isune could have gone to the dark side (literally), there was even an event about this! She is a character who has given everything she could give on multiple occasions. Instead of allowing all of these things to ruin her, she fosters art and continues to create beauty. She shows compassion to all those who deserve it - which is not the same as everyone. She is good - which is not the same as light.
These are things that my character can directly relate to. I look up to Isune. My perception of her is probably similar to others in her order, but in the finer points it is unique to me. It's not unique in itself, however. I felt much the same about Viravain when I played in Glomdoring. She embodied everything that I held dear, and I held it dear in part because she embodied it.
Although I am really glad to have had 2 super awesome patronesses who both shaped and supported my role-play, I don't really consider myself lucky - because this is not just some fluke. All the gods are like this. Once you get past the broad strokes, every one of the gods can suit every type of player. The teachings, the tenets, the allegories, and the allusions are all vague enough that they can fit almost everyone. You just need to pick one and start applying this stuff to yourself.
In my experience, gods appreciate when people take the time to do this. It must surely be gratifying for them to have players really embrace these words and ideas that they thought up; to bring them to life and carry them in new directions. Players in their turn must be grateful to have this guidance, and the reassurance that comes with it. This is where the rewarding personal relationships come into play, to whatever degree. They grow from this mutual respect.
Players can't fill these roles. Players are ephemeral. They change. They change their minds, their allegiances, they move on, they grow up. Gods are canon - constant, paradigm. Barring cataclysmic events and regardless of who is playing them currently, they will always be what they always were. This is their role - they serve a loftier purpose than regular players.
If my convoluted account of the many benefits has failed to sway you, then the short answer is that you should worship the gods because that's what they're for.
Vive l'apostrophe!
Vive l'apostrophe!
As for the reason why people bother - people enjoy it. They like feeling special when a god pays attention to them, or else they just like this type of role-play.
P.S. Not being zealous in a hyper-religious environment can be great role-play in itself. Maybe someone will witch-hunt you and burn you alive at a stake!
Vive l'apostrophe!