"So we believe. The essence of the Grue was never destroyed, even though its physical body might have been. It rose again as the Bluegill Moll. A century from now perhaps, he'll rise again, this time in a new form."
"What of the Seventh Circle?" I asked. "We all know they create! There goes your theory!"
"Do they truly?" asked Mugowumpois, then turned to Bollikin. "Do you truly create new life, Bollikin?"
"Erm," said Bollikin, glancing around and leaning against his companion Tae. "No, I guess not truly. We infuse a portion of our own spirits within our creations."
"There you go," said Mugowumpois with a glance at me. "And of course the Awakeners awaken those creations that Dynara infused with spirit. No, nothing is truly created."
"So we believe. The essence of the Grue was never destroyed, even though its physical body might have been. It rose again as the Bluegill Moll. A century from now perhaps, he'll rise again, this time in a new form."
"What of the Seventh Circle?" I asked. "We all know they create! There goes your theory!"
"Do they truly?" asked Mugowumpois, then turned to Bollikin. "Do you truly create new life, Bollikin?"
"Erm," said Bollikin, glancing around and leaning against his companion Tae. "No, I guess not truly. We infuse a portion of our own spirits within our creations."
"There you go," said Mugowumpois with a glance at me. "And of course the Awakeners awaken those creations that Dynara infused with spirit. No, nothing is truly created."
I still don't understand your point here. There were no birds, there were no dogs, there were no cats.
These beings were created; this is why that Circle achieved that name.
Those beings would not exist, but the world still would.
The Book of Tae shows the creation of rockeaters.
I blushed and squeezed Bolli’s ears. I know I am uncommonly smart but it’s embarrassing to have him point it out. Bollikin, of course, was smarter even than me and so we began experimenting with creating something that could live in these caves. Bollikin used some rocks to meld together a small creature, and sent me to gather some lava to use as blood. Together, we breathed life into the squabbling creature, which immediately squirmed to life and breathed a gout of steam. Bolli giggled and began to feed it rocks, which it immediately began crunching in its funny little mouth. I said it was pretty ugly.
You can see Bollikin taking bits of the world and reshaping it into something new. But those bits needed to exist before the "creators" could reshape them into animals, which in turn seems to have resulted in the animals possessing a closer bond to the natural world than their "creator" because they are literally part of it, just pulled out and reformed.
Those beings would not exist, but the world still would.
The Book of Tae shows the creation of rockeaters.
I blushed and squeezed Bolli’s ears. I know I am uncommonly smart but it’s embarrassing to have him point it out. Bollikin, of course, was smarter even than me and so we began experimenting with creating something that could live in these caves. Bollikin used some rocks to meld together a small creature, and sent me to gather some lava to use as blood. Together, we breathed life into the squabbling creature, which immediately squirmed to life and breathed a gout of steam. Bolli giggled and began to feed it rocks, which it immediately began crunching in its funny little mouth. I said it was pretty ugly.
You can see Bollikin taking bits of the world and reshaping it into something new. But those bits needed to exist before the "creators" could reshape them into animals, which in turn seems to have resulted in the animals possessing a closer bond to the natural world than their "creator" because they are literally part of it, just pulled out and reformed.
You mean like how I said the world would be a barren rock, in the post you flagged "disagree" with? I specifically stated that it would be empty, devoid of everything; there would be no creatures, there would be no sunsets as we know them (they were painted by Isune), it would just be a blank canvas upon which nothing was writ.
This is a pretty semantical argument. Did they create things out of thin air? No, they used the materials around them to create new things that did not exist before. Is that still creation? I think so, a brand new thing came into being.
Edit: Furthermore if I type n 'creation definiton' in google, this is what pops up: the action or process of bringing something into existence.
I guess it depends on how you define "created." The elders are making things that never existed, even if they are using themselves and Dynara's materials to do it. If you think this thing that no mortal has ever done is impressive and worthy of worship, woo! If you don't... okay!
Those beings would not exist, but the world still would.
The Book of Tae shows the creation of rockeaters.
I blushed and squeezed Bolli’s ears. I know I am uncommonly smart but it’s embarrassing to have him point it out. Bollikin, of course, was smarter even than me and so we began experimenting with creating something that could live in these caves. Bollikin used some rocks to meld together a small creature, and sent me to gather some lava to use as blood. Together, we breathed life into the squabbling creature, which immediately squirmed to life and breathed a gout of steam. Bolli giggled and began to feed it rocks, which it immediately began crunching in its funny little mouth. I said it was pretty ugly.
You can see Bollikin taking bits of the world and reshaping it into something new. But those bits needed to exist before the "creators" could reshape them into animals, which in turn seems to have resulted in the animals possessing a closer bond to the natural world than their "creator" because they are literally part of it, just pulled out and reformed.
You mean like how I said the world would be a barren rock, in the post you flagged "disagree" with? I specifically stated that it would be empty, devoid of everything; there would be no creatures, there would be no sunsets as we know them (they were painted by Isune), it would just be a blank canvas upon which nothing was writ.
But the sun would, and the moon, and shadows, and plants (though not painted), and lava, and fields, and forests, and rivers, and possibly the weather.
My reading of the last line of what I quoted from the Book of Orlachmar seems to indicate that any awakened spirit is from a creation of Dynara and infused with spirit by Herself. Unless it has been retconned, this would imply that everything that the awakened spirits represent (Nymphs, Sylphs, River, Moon, Night, Leprechauns, Pixies, Dryads, and so on) all existed as part of Lusternia prior to the workings of the elders.
Not really to the same scale. We've made inanimate objects by the thousands (if not millions by this point), but that's about the extent. Mortals have been able to create beings as mishmashes of other things, but almost none are actually able to be their own species (Gorgogs might be an exception to this, as a note- I don't know exactly how gorgogs function, if they were just created in the billions, if they are able to keep creating themselves scientifically by fusing elements, or if they are actually a living species that can procreate).
This is a pretty semantical argument. Did they create things out of thin air? No, they used the materials around them to create new things that did not exist before. Is that still creation? I think so, a brand new thing came into being.
Edit: Furthermore if I type n 'creation definiton' in google, this is what pops up: the action or process of bringing something into existence.
However, this is also a thread regarding perspectives on the elders. I would define Dynara as a Goddess due to her ability to create things from nothing, but the elders seem to float more around the level of Vernals who are mortals that rose up to the power level of divinity so appending the title god to them doesn't really feel right.
Those beings would not exist, but the world still would.
The Book of Tae shows the creation of rockeaters.
I
blushed and squeezed Bolli’s ears. I know I am uncommonly smart but
it’s embarrassing to have him point it out. Bollikin, of course, was
smarter even than me and so we began experimenting with creating
something that could live in these caves. Bollikin used some rocks to
meld together a small creature, and sent me to gather some lava to use
as blood. Together, we breathed life into the squabbling creature, which
immediately squirmed to life and breathed a gout of steam. Bolli
giggled and began to feed it rocks, which it immediately began crunching
in its funny little mouth. I said it was pretty ugly.
You
can see Bollikin taking bits of the world and reshaping it into
something new. But those bits needed to exist before the "creators"
could reshape them into animals, which in turn seems to have resulted in
the animals possessing a closer bond to the natural world than their
"creator" because they are literally part of it, just pulled out and
reformed.
You mean like how I said the world would be a barren rock, in the post
you flagged "disagree" with? I specifically stated that it would be
empty, devoid of everything; there would be no creatures, there would be
no sunsets as we know them (they were painted by Isune), it would just
be a blank canvas upon which nothing was writ.
But the sun would, and the moon, and shadows, and plants (though not
painted), and lava, and fields, and forests, and rivers, and possibly
the weather.
My reading of the last line of what I
quoted from the Book of Orlachmar seems to indicate that any awakened
spirit is from a creation of Dynara and infused with spirit by Herself.
Unless it has been retconned, this would imply that everything that the
awakened spirits represent (Nymphs, Sylphs, River, Moon, Night,
Leprechauns, Pixies, Dryads, and so on) all existed as part of Lusternia
prior to the workings of the elders.
I'm not convinced on the plants (at least not all of them); as I recall,
flowers were also created but we've never really been given a breakdown
on what was or was not in existence prior as far as that goes. It can very safely be said that even as far as the flora goes, the world would be considerably emptier as well.
Having the sun / moon around would not make the planet any less barren or empty. I'm still unsure why you're so hung up on this, because it's acutely obvious to me that without the Gods (as far as Lusternian lore goes) Lusternia would not exist. There would be no animals, no PCs, no spirits, no nothing; just an empty rock floating through the void.
I don't think those things would necessarily exist. Their potential would, but as our characters know them and interact with them, they wouldn't. We haven't met or heard of an Elder God who created plants specifically, or who drew rivers, that I'm aware of, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. We don't know that they do, either, of course, so it's a completely valid assumption that they don't, and basing your character's philosophy around the fact that they don't is fine. But others could equally validly assume that they do, and therefore find the Elders worthy of worship.
Also most of what mortals seem to have done falls within the bounds of crazy mad scientists. But of course, there could be more out there that I'm not aware of.
This is a pretty semantical argument. Did they create things out of thin air? No, they used the materials around them to create new things that did not exist before. Is that still creation? I think so, a brand new thing came into being.
Edit: Furthermore if I type n 'creation definiton' in google, this is what pops up: the action or process of bringing something into existence.
However, this is also a thread regarding perspectives on the elders. I would define Dynara as a Goddess due to her ability to create things from nothing, but the elders seem to float more around the level of Vernals who are mortals that rose up to the power level of divinity so appending the title god to them doesn't really feel right.
My post has nothing to do with the definition of what makes a God a God, and your posts didn't really identify this as your primary argument either. You simply said that the Elder gods did not create where Xenthos is arguing they did. As a result, my post has to do with what the definition of 'creating' is.
If you want to argue that, then go for it, but the previous discussion was based off the definition of creating, which is what I responded to.
Those beings would not exist, but the world still would.
The Book of Tae shows the creation of rockeaters.
I
blushed and squeezed Bolli’s ears. I know I am uncommonly smart but
it’s embarrassing to have him point it out. Bollikin, of course, was
smarter even than me and so we began experimenting with creating
something that could live in these caves. Bollikin used some rocks to
meld together a small creature, and sent me to gather some lava to use
as blood. Together, we breathed life into the squabbling creature, which
immediately squirmed to life and breathed a gout of steam. Bolli
giggled and began to feed it rocks, which it immediately began crunching
in its funny little mouth. I said it was pretty ugly.
You
can see Bollikin taking bits of the world and reshaping it into
something new. But those bits needed to exist before the "creators"
could reshape them into animals, which in turn seems to have resulted in
the animals possessing a closer bond to the natural world than their
"creator" because they are literally part of it, just pulled out and
reformed.
You mean like how I said the world would be a barren rock, in the post
you flagged "disagree" with? I specifically stated that it would be
empty, devoid of everything; there would be no creatures, there would be
no sunsets as we know them (they were painted by Isune), it would just
be a blank canvas upon which nothing was writ.
But the sun would, and the moon, and shadows, and plants (though not
painted), and lava, and fields, and forests, and rivers, and possibly
the weather.
My reading of the last line of what I
quoted from the Book of Orlachmar seems to indicate that any awakened
spirit is from a creation of Dynara and infused with spirit by Herself.
Unless it has been retconned, this would imply that everything that the
awakened spirits represent (Nymphs, Sylphs, River, Moon, Night,
Leprechauns, Pixies, Dryads, and so on) all existed as part of Lusternia
prior to the workings of the elders.
I'm not convinced on the plants (at least not all of them); as I recall,
flowers were also created but we've never really been given a breakdown
on what was or was not in existence prior as far as that goes. It can very safely be said that even as far as the flora goes, the world would be considerably emptier as well.
Having the sun / moon around would not make the planet any less barren or empty. I'm still unsure why you're so hung up on this, because it's acutely obvious to me that without the Gods (as far as Lusternian lore goes) Lusternia would not exist. There would be no animals, no PCs, no spirits, no nothing; just an empty rock floating through the void.
That would be an incredibly boring realm.
Not saying it wouldn't be boring but it would still exist, from memory I think there is a log somewhere of Maeve being presented with a flower that hadn't been painted yet. They lived and existed, they just weren't all that pretty. I think there was something along the lines of looking into them and bringing their potential out.
Having a look at the Book of Trillillial, I'm wondering about what "Painting sunsets" would be. It seems more described as them adjusting what's there to create a pleasing effect that day, moving clouds and causing rays of light. Not actually a permanent thing.
Bold reds and bright oranges flared across the horizon, which I immediately recognized the work of my sister Isune. I reached out with my power and sent clouds rolling across the jagged mountain range, painting the sunrise with soft magentas and streaks of yellow. The Spirit of the Sun cried out merrily at the colours that swirled around him, and I tickled him with shafts of pink rays.
I don't think those things would necessarily exist. Their potential would, but as our characters know them and interact with them, they wouldn't. We haven't met or heard of an Elder God who created plants specifically, or who drew rivers, that I'm aware of, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. We don't know that they do, either, of course, so it's a completely valid assumption that they don't, and basing your character's philosophy around the fact that they don't is fine. But others could equally validly assume that they do, and therefore find the Elders worthy of worship.
Also most of what mortals seem to have done falls within the bounds of crazy mad scientists. But of course, there could be more out there that I'm not aware of.
Again, I'll just draw it back to the Elder Wars books, if it's an awakened spirit then it was created by Dynara, Mugowumpois states this like it's a commonly known fact. So what Sister River and Old Man Rock were awakened from are creations of Dynara, these may have been modified by Artists later on.
As for the mad scientists, is that not what many of the elders are? They just have had a lot more time in existence to refine their mad science and perhaps if mortals were able to live for that long they might have achieved similar things. My mind immediately glares at hallifax here. I mean, really when you consider that they've *spoilers*.
Those beings would not exist, but the world still would.
The Book of Tae shows the creation of rockeaters.
I
blushed and squeezed Bolli’s ears. I know I am uncommonly smart but
it’s embarrassing to have him point it out. Bollikin, of course, was
smarter even than me and so we began experimenting with creating
something that could live in these caves. Bollikin used some rocks to
meld together a small creature, and sent me to gather some lava to use
as blood. Together, we breathed life into the squabbling creature, which
immediately squirmed to life and breathed a gout of steam. Bolli
giggled and began to feed it rocks, which it immediately began crunching
in its funny little mouth. I said it was pretty ugly.
You
can see Bollikin taking bits of the world and reshaping it into
something new. But those bits needed to exist before the "creators"
could reshape them into animals, which in turn seems to have resulted in
the animals possessing a closer bond to the natural world than their
"creator" because they are literally part of it, just pulled out and
reformed.
You mean like how I said the world would be a barren rock, in the post
you flagged "disagree" with? I specifically stated that it would be
empty, devoid of everything; there would be no creatures, there would be
no sunsets as we know them (they were painted by Isune), it would just
be a blank canvas upon which nothing was writ.
But the sun would, and the moon, and shadows, and plants (though not
painted), and lava, and fields, and forests, and rivers, and possibly
the weather.
My reading of the last line of what I
quoted from the Book of Orlachmar seems to indicate that any awakened
spirit is from a creation of Dynara and infused with spirit by Herself.
Unless it has been retconned, this would imply that everything that the
awakened spirits represent (Nymphs, Sylphs, River, Moon, Night,
Leprechauns, Pixies, Dryads, and so on) all existed as part of Lusternia
prior to the workings of the elders.
I'm not convinced on the plants (at least not all of them); as I recall,
flowers were also created but we've never really been given a breakdown
on what was or was not in existence prior as far as that goes. It can very safely be said that even as far as the flora goes, the world would be considerably emptier as well.
Having the sun / moon around would not make the planet any less barren or empty. I'm still unsure why you're so hung up on this, because it's acutely obvious to me that without the Gods (as far as Lusternian lore goes) Lusternia would not exist. There would be no animals, no PCs, no spirits, no nothing; just an empty rock floating through the void.
That would be an incredibly boring realm.
Not saying it wouldn't be boring but it would still exist, from memory I think there is a log somewhere of Maeve being presented with a flower that hadn't been painted yet. They lived and existed, they just weren't all that pretty. I think there was something along the lines of looking into them and bringing their potential out.
Having a look at the Book of Trillillial, I'm wondering about what "Painting sunsets" would be. It seems more described as them adjusting what's there to create a pleasing effect that day, moving clouds and causing rays of light. Not actually a permanent thing.
Bold reds and bright oranges flared across the horizon, which I immediately recognized the work of my sister Isune. I reached out with my power and sent clouds rolling across the jagged mountain range, painting the sunrise with soft magentas and streaks of yellow. The Spirit of the Sun cried out merrily at the colours that swirled around him, and I tickled him with shafts of pink rays.
I don't think those things would necessarily exist. Their potential would, but as our characters know them and interact with them, they wouldn't. We haven't met or heard of an Elder God who created plants specifically, or who drew rivers, that I'm aware of, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. We don't know that they do, either, of course, so it's a completely valid assumption that they don't, and basing your character's philosophy around the fact that they don't is fine. But others could equally validly assume that they do, and therefore find the Elders worthy of worship.
Also most of what mortals seem to have done falls within the bounds of crazy mad scientists. But of course, there could be more out there that I'm not aware of.
Again, I'll just draw it back to the Elder Wars books, if it's an awakened spirit then it was created by Dynara, Mugowumpois states this like it's a commonly known fact. So what Sister River and Old Man Rock were awakened from are creations of Dynara, these may have been modified by Artists later on.
As for the mad scientists, is that not what many of the elders are? They just have had a lot more time in existence to refine their mad science and perhaps if mortals were able to live for that long they might have achieved similar things. My mind immediately glares at hallifax here. I mean, really when you consider that they've *spoilers*.
We have a completely different definition of "existing" I think.
Let's say that Earth had no life on it. It would be a completely different world than the one we know now. The planet would exist, but it wouldn't be Earth (there wouldn't even have been any sentient beings to give it that name).
Note that I'm not discussing the impact of humanity on the planet, but life in general; there is a rich tapestry of history and evolution and change over a vast expanse of years that makes our world what it is.
Those beings would not exist, but the world still would.
The Book of Tae shows the creation of rockeaters.
I
blushed and squeezed Bolli’s ears. I know I am uncommonly smart but
it’s embarrassing to have him point it out. Bollikin, of course, was
smarter even than me and so we began experimenting with creating
something that could live in these caves. Bollikin used some rocks to
meld together a small creature, and sent me to gather some lava to use
as blood. Together, we breathed life into the squabbling creature, which
immediately squirmed to life and breathed a gout of steam. Bolli
giggled and began to feed it rocks, which it immediately began crunching
in its funny little mouth. I said it was pretty ugly.
You
can see Bollikin taking bits of the world and reshaping it into
something new. But those bits needed to exist before the "creators"
could reshape them into animals, which in turn seems to have resulted in
the animals possessing a closer bond to the natural world than their
"creator" because they are literally part of it, just pulled out and
reformed.
You mean like how I said the world would be a barren rock, in the post
you flagged "disagree" with? I specifically stated that it would be
empty, devoid of everything; there would be no creatures, there would be
no sunsets as we know them (they were painted by Isune), it would just
be a blank canvas upon which nothing was writ.
But the sun would, and the moon, and shadows, and plants (though not
painted), and lava, and fields, and forests, and rivers, and possibly
the weather.
My reading of the last line of what I
quoted from the Book of Orlachmar seems to indicate that any awakened
spirit is from a creation of Dynara and infused with spirit by Herself.
Unless it has been retconned, this would imply that everything that the
awakened spirits represent (Nymphs, Sylphs, River, Moon, Night,
Leprechauns, Pixies, Dryads, and so on) all existed as part of Lusternia
prior to the workings of the elders.
I'm not convinced on the plants (at least not all of them); as I recall,
flowers were also created but we've never really been given a breakdown
on what was or was not in existence prior as far as that goes. It can very safely be said that even as far as the flora goes, the world would be considerably emptier as well.
Having the sun / moon around would not make the planet any less barren or empty. I'm still unsure why you're so hung up on this, because it's acutely obvious to me that without the Gods (as far as Lusternian lore goes) Lusternia would not exist. There would be no animals, no PCs, no spirits, no nothing; just an empty rock floating through the void.
That would be an incredibly boring realm.
Not saying it wouldn't be boring but it would still exist, from memory I think there is a log somewhere of Maeve being presented with a flower that hadn't been painted yet. They lived and existed, they just weren't all that pretty. I think there was something along the lines of looking into them and bringing their potential out.
Having a look at the Book of Trillillial, I'm wondering about what "Painting sunsets" would be. It seems more described as them adjusting what's there to create a pleasing effect that day, moving clouds and causing rays of light. Not actually a permanent thing.
Bold reds and bright oranges flared across the horizon, which I immediately recognized the work of my sister Isune. I reached out with my power and sent clouds rolling across the jagged mountain range, painting the sunrise with soft magentas and streaks of yellow. The Spirit of the Sun cried out merrily at the colours that swirled around him, and I tickled him with shafts of pink rays.
I don't think those things would necessarily exist. Their potential would, but as our characters know them and interact with them, they wouldn't. We haven't met or heard of an Elder God who created plants specifically, or who drew rivers, that I'm aware of, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. We don't know that they do, either, of course, so it's a completely valid assumption that they don't, and basing your character's philosophy around the fact that they don't is fine. But others could equally validly assume that they do, and therefore find the Elders worthy of worship.
Also most of what mortals seem to have done falls within the bounds of crazy mad scientists. But of course, there could be more out there that I'm not aware of.
Again, I'll just draw it back to the Elder Wars books, if it's an awakened spirit then it was created by Dynara, Mugowumpois states this like it's a commonly known fact. So what Sister River and Old Man Rock were awakened from are creations of Dynara, these may have been modified by Artists later on.
As for the mad scientists, is that not what many of the elders are? They just have had a lot more time in existence to refine their mad science and perhaps if mortals were able to live for that long they might have achieved similar things. My mind immediately glares at hallifax here. I mean, really when you consider that they've *spoilers*.
We have a completely different definition of "existing" I think.
Let's say that Earth had no life on it. It would be a completely different world than the one we know now. The planet would exist, but it wouldn't be Earth (there wouldn't even have been any sentient beings to give it that name).
Note that I'm not discussing the impact of humanity on the planet, but life in general; there is a rich tapestry of history and evolution and change over a vast expanse of years that makes our world what it is.
And if humanity were to create a sapient life form, we might appear as gods to them. Just like all the stories of advanced civilisations encountering primitive ones and subsequently being worshipped as gods.
Again, my view is that the Elders are the first race, they came to the first world and then they changed it to suit their desires and needs, but I don't feel that makes them gods. Changing this planet to suit us is what we've been doing since well... ever and our lack of knowledge of it's intricacies has lead to various issues. The only real difference I feel is that the Elders in Lusternia have great magical powers and so survival was not really a concern, and at the same time the way they interact with the world is through their magic.
TLDR: Mortals make life by mutating bits of other stuff, elders made life by mutating bits of themselves. The only real difference is elders don't reincarnate or procreate and get bigger guns with which to Solve Problems.
Concerning mad scientists: There has been some really impressive work done in terms of mortals directly creating new forms of life, but in every circumstance I'm familiar with it's either mutative(naga are the premiere example) or constructive(not life in a 'true' sense). Gorgogs would be an instance of the latter, along with certain halli constructs. Has the Institute made any logic crystals that assemble/imbue new ones? If not, get on that. Nothing can possibly go wrong with grey goo.
Looking over the newsposts, gorgogs can in fact breed, which is a lovely image that will now be in my head forever. Not only that, but they have mutated, historically speaking, although that could just be the taint doin' its thang. How this actually works is to my knowledge unknown, and kind of weird given that for all appearances they're basically elementals.
Naga(although I haven't actually looked into that project much, so correct mistakes) arose mostly due to mucking about with a soulless, so how much they count as a mortal effort is questionable.
In terms of other created life, there's the asylum's parasites, which are clearly bred from an earlier kind of bug(thanks kethuru) and the undead. The undead are important because they are in a sense created with the life force of a mortal(the caster, not the target), but on the other hand they aren't really self-perpetuating, undeath being more a variation on a theme than a truly new form of life. Again, mutative.
Pause for Marcella to jump in with details on the original ur'guard.
Then again, as was discussed the star gods didn't really create anything anyways. They either mutated bits of themselves(creators) or woke up spirits that Dynara had put there in the first place. There's still the question of where plants came from, as they're fundamentally really different from animals and fungus, the first of which most sorts of healing work on fairly well and the second of which healing sort of works on(thanks Portius/some i'Xiia I don't remember the name of). Flowers have their own fae, which I guess were minor awakened spirits, so the flowers must've already been in place with the elders showed up, like the moon/sun/whatever, so maybe that extends to other plants?
I suppose another part of this is a question on just how much the star gods really influenced geography. Did they make the mountains and rivers, or just populate them? Given the amount of firepower the average displeased god tends to work with I think it's safe to say they definitely could shape them if they felt like it, but it seems like most of them just found a mountain/valley/cave they liked and called it good enough. The healing mounds up on ethereal were already there, for instance, although I do think Dracnaris did some stuff with volcanoes. Maybe just the one she napped in?
I guess where I'm going with this is that the star gods are mortals in basically every way, except for their soul, their body composition(do elders have meat in them, or even the same sorts of elements(is Elemental Particle Theory still a thing?)?), and their power source. Mortals have pretty terrible power sources. Also aging I guess? Although mortals have gotten around that through the traditional art of baby eating.
Oh yeah, gravediggers. Was that the Empire making terrible decisions like everything else? I guess they're in Icewynd, so they almost definitely predate the Taint Wars. Or maybe those were actually made by an elder?
Their soul is made of the same stuff, the difference is that their soul transcends their body to a larger degree than a demigod/ascendant's (in fact, it almost completely eclipses the phyrsical). The power source is also the same, Elders just have a closer tie to it.
Their soul is made of the same stuff, the difference is that their soul transcends their body to a larger degree than a demigod/ascendant's (in fact, it almost completely eclipses the phyrsical). The power source is also the same, Elders just have a closer tie to it.
Tho it should be noted while players can edge near CLOSE to Godlike, they cannot become actual Gods. Because they are shards of a God.
If you take a piece of paper and shred it, you can take the shreds and tape them back together. No individual shred will ever be that piece of paper, no matter how much you try, and a shredded piece of paper that's been retaped will never compare to a whole piece of a paper, no matter how much you try.
There are mutterings about a divide between the two, a gulf between demigods et. al. and proper Elder Gods. You'd have to make a quantum leap over the barrier to get to godhood, and that's no longer possible slash never was possible.
The paper metaphor doesn't really hold up, because if you could put back those shreds of paper, they would equal more than the original piece - that's part of the point of sharding. However, no given piece can expand past a certain point, because it would take more power than is practical to launch that far out into the gulf between shards and Elder Gods. You get closer with enough power (ascendants), but can't quite reach it.
But the Gods are still in the chain of ascention: basic mortal -> fate-touched -> titan -> demigod ->ascendant -> (nothing, this is the problem) -> Elder God. You just can't bridge that gap. That doesn't make them ineffable, holy (inherently good/right), or otherwise better than mortals, it just makes them... more.
Philosophically, I think the only trait strictly necessary for one to be considered a god is that other people view them as one. Even if the Elder gods didn't actually create life, I see it as more a question of whether or not this being is powerful/dangerous enough to warrant respect from mortals. I.E, if I didn't agree with or like a particular god, it would still be prudent to not make them angry. Also, there's nothing a mortal can do to a god, to my knowledge, but plenty of ways a god can make our lives miserable, regardless of how 'godlike' we think they really are.
If they are like the Greek gods or the DnD gods, then they're more symbolic of mortal perfection. You'd pick whichever one you most admired, seeing the traits you most desire in yourself as perfected in the deity. It wouldn't matter if they were the most powerful god(even compared to their fellow deities), or particularly had any useful powers at all... only that you want to be like them. With the Greek gods, though, who you worshiped depended on the situation and what you wanted/didn't want from the god.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
There are mutterings about a divide between the two, a gulf between demigods et. al. and proper Elder Gods. You'd have to make a quantum leap over the barrier to get to godhood, and that's no longer possible slash never was possible.
The paper metaphor doesn't really hold up, because if you could put back those shreds of paper, they would equal more than the original piece - that's part of the point of sharding. However, no given piece can expand past a certain point, because it would take more power than is practical to launch that far out into the gulf between shards and Elder Gods. You get closer with enough power (ascendants), but can't quite reach it.
But the Gods are still in the chain of ascention: basic mortal -> fate-touched -> titan -> demigod ->ascendant -> (nothing, this is the problem) -> Elder God. You just can't bridge that gap. That doesn't make them ineffable, holy (inherently good/right), or otherwise better than mortals, it just makes them... more.
At your second para... there would be other pieces of paper needed to be taped or injected into the different shreds for the metaphor to work more wholly, I think. It's an incomplete metaphor, and another one may be a better option.
IC I have some interesting ideas about Yudhe because Auseklis said a few thought inspiring words on the topic back ages ago. I have a lot more stuff plotted out OOC, but it hasn't made it IC yet.
IC I have some interesting ideas about Yudhe because Auseklis said a few thought inspiring words on the topic back ages ago. I have a lot more stuff plotted out OOC, but it hasn't made it IC yet.
Could you please explain why you disagree with me, and what about? It is only my opinion on the subject... so... discussion would be more interesting?
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
The Gods are not subjective entities, you can't be qualified as a 'Lusternian God' just because people think you are. The Elder Gods are objectively different from mortals in terms of scale within the context of Lusternia, even if demimortals and gods share the same essential traits and fundamental underpinnings.
The Greek or DnD gods do not represent perfection, their point is that they are flawed in all the same ways as mortals - often more so. The entire classical (popular) Olympian narritive is a story of the worst of mankind played out in the stars. Jealousy, lust, anger, murder, lying, stealing, cheating, you name it - the gods get down and dirty just like the rest of us. The difference being that when they fight, lightning flashes in the sky and the sun falls out of the sky. They have the same issues, but everything is turned up to 11 because they are more powerful.
Comments
"So we believe. The essence of the Grue was never destroyed, even though its physical body might have been. It rose again as the Bluegill Moll. A century from now perhaps, he'll rise again, this time in a new form."
"What of the Seventh Circle?" I asked. "We all know they create! There goes your theory!"
"Do they truly?" asked Mugowumpois, then turned to Bollikin. "Do you truly create new life, Bollikin?"
"Erm," said Bollikin, glancing around and leaning against his companion Tae. "No, I guess not truly. We infuse a portion of our own spirits within our creations."
"There you go," said Mugowumpois with a glance at me. "And of course the Awakeners awaken those creations that Dynara infused with spirit. No, nothing is truly created."
These beings were created; this is why that Circle achieved that name.
Without these Gods, these beings would not exist.
Your denial of this flummoxes me.
I guess it depends on how you define "created." The elders are making things that never existed, even if they are using themselves and Dynara's materials to do it. If you think this thing that no mortal has ever done is impressive and worthy of worship, woo! If you don't... okay!
Having the sun / moon around would not make the planet any less barren or empty. I'm still unsure why you're so hung up on this, because it's acutely obvious to me that without the Gods (as far as Lusternian lore goes) Lusternia would not exist. There would be no animals, no PCs, no spirits, no nothing; just an empty rock floating through the void.
That would be an incredibly boring realm.
Also most of what mortals seem to have done falls within the bounds of crazy mad scientists. But of course, there could be more out there that I'm not aware of.
Let's say that Earth had no life on it. It would be a completely different world than the one we know now. The planet would exist, but it wouldn't be Earth (there wouldn't even have been any sentient beings to give it that name).
Note that I'm not discussing the impact of humanity on the planet, but life in general; there is a rich tapestry of history and evolution and change over a vast expanse of years that makes our world what it is.
Concerning mad scientists: There has been some really impressive work done in terms of mortals directly creating new forms of life, but in every circumstance I'm familiar with it's either mutative(naga are the premiere example) or constructive(not life in a 'true' sense). Gorgogs would be an instance of the latter, along with certain halli constructs. Has the Institute made any logic crystals that assemble/imbue new ones? If not, get on that. Nothing can possibly go wrong with grey goo.
Looking over the newsposts, gorgogs can in fact breed, which is a lovely image that will now be in my head forever. Not only that, but they have mutated, historically speaking, although that could just be the taint doin' its thang. How this actually works is to my knowledge unknown, and kind of weird given that for all appearances they're basically elementals.
Naga(although I haven't actually looked into that project much, so correct mistakes) arose mostly due to mucking about with a soulless, so how much they count as a mortal effort is questionable.
In terms of other created life, there's the asylum's parasites, which are clearly bred from an earlier kind of bug(thanks kethuru) and the undead. The undead are important because they are in a sense created with the life force of a mortal(the caster, not the target), but on the other hand they aren't really self-perpetuating, undeath being more a variation on a theme than a truly new form of life. Again, mutative.
Pause for Marcella to jump in with details on the original ur'guard.
Then again, as was discussed the star gods didn't really create anything anyways. They either mutated bits of themselves(creators) or woke up spirits that Dynara had put there in the first place. There's still the question of where plants came from, as they're fundamentally really different from animals and fungus, the first of which most sorts of healing work on fairly well and the second of which healing sort of works on(thanks Portius/some i'Xiia I don't remember the name of). Flowers have their own fae, which I guess were minor awakened spirits, so the flowers must've already been in place with the elders showed up, like the moon/sun/whatever, so maybe that extends to other plants?
I suppose another part of this is a question on just how much the star gods really influenced geography. Did they make the mountains and rivers, or just populate them? Given the amount of firepower the average displeased god tends to work with I think it's safe to say they definitely could shape them if they felt like it, but it seems like most of them just found a mountain/valley/cave they liked and called it good enough. The healing mounds up on ethereal were already there, for instance, although I do think Dracnaris did some stuff with volcanoes. Maybe just the one she napped in?
I guess where I'm going with this is that the star gods are mortals in basically every way, except for their soul, their body composition(do elders have meat in them, or even the same sorts of elements(is Elemental Particle Theory still a thing?)?), and their power source. Mortals have pretty terrible power sources. Also aging I guess? Although mortals have gotten around that through the traditional art of baby eating.
Oh yeah, gravediggers. Was that the Empire making terrible decisions like everything else? I guess they're in Icewynd, so they almost definitely predate the Taint Wars. Or maybe those were actually made by an elder?
Tho it should be noted while players can edge near CLOSE to Godlike, they cannot become actual Gods. Because they are shards of a God.